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The blood belongs to God

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  • Daniel N. Washburn
    Let us for a moment assume that the passion narrative is pretty much historically true. Jesus knew from disciples like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 27, 2009
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      Let us for a moment assume that the passion narrative is pretty much
      historically true. Jesus knew from disciples like Nicodemus and Joseph
      of Arimathea, who were spies in the power structure, that there had
      been a decision taken to kill him and later he knew that Judas had
      betrayed him and was leading the authorities to him at a certain hour.

      Because he believed that his death would be followed within days by the
      resurrection of the dead and he felt God was calling him to do it, he
      decided to sacrifice himself to bring in the Reign of God.

      Hence he went up to Jerusalem predicting his death and the immediate
      beginning of the resurrection.
      The expulsion of the money changers was a deliberate provocation to get
      the authorities to arrest and execute him.
      At the last supper he knew about Judas and said one of you will betray me.
      He knew that Judas would come to Gethsemane at a certain hour, hence he
      says the one who is going to betray me is coming now.
      He did not defend himself at the trial because he wanted to be executed.

      He predicts the destruction of the temple. He doesn't say so but this
      will be a part of the resurrection--God shifts from the Temple into the
      hearts of men.

      During the last supper he is saying I am the sacrifice--eat the flesh of
      the sacrifice, drink the blood of the sacrifice. In the Temple the
      priests eat the flesh of the sacrifice but only God eats the flesh and
      drinks the blood.

      He is saying the Holy Spirit lives in you now and in the Kingdom God
      will live in you fully. My sacrifice whll bring about the destruction
      of this world and the fullness of God in your hearts. I offer up my
      body to the God in you.

      I suspect that he thought his sacrifice would spare his disciples the
      tribulation, the final period of suffering before the end of days--his
      execution would initiate the resurrection of the dead.

      My question is, why would he be so convinced that his death would bring
      on the resurrection of the dead?

      Any ideas?

      Dan
    • vincent@dmv.com
      ... Well according to the New Testament, there were many resurrected dead when he was resurrected. It seems as I recall from reading that the dead that were
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 27, 2009
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        >
        >
        > My question is, why would he be so convinced that his death would bring
        > on the resurrection of the dead?
        >
        > Any ideas?
        >
        > Dan
        >

        Well according to the New Testament, there were many resurrected dead when
        he was resurrected. It seems as I recall from reading that the dead that
        were resurrected were no very welcome.

        The whole point of the whole bible is simply to get you to pray
        effectively, Dan. Jesus had prayed effectively on so many occasions it
        would be hard to imagine him having a doubt that would stop him.

        Read John chapter eight again, and realize that he is try to tell them
        that he ascends from the earth and then descends from heaven, as he is
        "sent by God", not of his own power. He solved the transportation problem,
        and he paryed that his disciples and those who believe him would be sent
        in the same way that he was sent from place to place.

        Work on being sent, Dan. This is what salvation is, God responding to your
        prayer, the prayer to be sent, or a prayer to restore your life.

        God answering prayer is salvation. What else could it be?


        In His yeshua,

        Vince
      • Chris
        I m not convinced that any historical figure named Jesus believed his death would bring the resurrection of the dead. I am convinced, however, that the story
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 29, 2009
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          I'm not convinced that any historical figure named Jesus believed his death would bring
          the resurrection of the dead. I am convinced, however, that the story of Jesus fits firmly in
          the tradition of all vegetation gods...life comes from death, and that which dies and is
          eaten is destined to sustain the life of he who consumes it. In that sense, the dead can be
          said to come to life anew. It is the picture of the tauroctony: the sheaves of wheat and
          dogs (not to mention the serpent) feed on the blood of the dying bull.

          As for the Bible, I am also not convinced that its purpose is to help us pray. Like most
          sacred scriptures, it attempts to encapsulate some basic beliefs common to a specific
          culture, in this case Hellenistic Christians. It is the rough equivalent to secular humanism
          today, or at least as it appears in Europe. That which makes "sense" to one people in one
          particular time is destined to appear absurd and nonsensical to a different people in a
          different time. Put differently, the Greek philosophers got the elements of the world
          wrong by our standards but were closer with their mathematical proofs.

          "Anything capable of being believed in is an image of truth."- Blake

          "Everything fragmentary is blameworthy." - Goethe


          --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, vincent@... wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > My question is, why would he be so convinced that his death would bring
          > > on the resurrection of the dead?
          > >
          > > Any ideas?
          > >
          > > Dan
          > >
          >
          > Well according to the New Testament, there were many resurrected dead when
          > he was resurrected. It seems as I recall from reading that the dead that
          > were resurrected were no very welcome.
          >
          > The whole point of the whole bible is simply to get you to pray
          > effectively, Dan. Jesus had prayed effectively on so many occasions it
          > would be hard to imagine him having a doubt that would stop him.
          >
          > Read John chapter eight again, and realize that he is try to tell them
          > that he ascends from the earth and then descends from heaven, as he is
          > "sent by God", not of his own power. He solved the transportation problem,
          > and he paryed that his disciples and those who believe him would be sent
          > in the same way that he was sent from place to place.
          >
          > Work on being sent, Dan. This is what salvation is, God responding to your
          > prayer, the prayer to be sent, or a prayer to restore your life.
          >
          > God answering prayer is salvation. What else could it be?
          >
          >
          > In His yeshua,
          >
          > Vince
          >
        • Daniel N. Washburn
          ... This is exactly the problem with the last supper. Eating the flesh and blood is something that fits in well with the Hellenistic Mystery religions but is
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 30, 2009
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            Chris wrote:

            >I'm not convinced that any historical figure named Jesus believed his death would bring
            >the resurrection of the dead. I am convinced, however, that the story of Jesus fits firmly in
            >the tradition of all vegetation gods...life comes from death, and that which dies and is
            >eaten is destined to sustain the life of he who consumes it. In that sense, the dead can be
            >said to come to life anew. It is the picture of the tauroctony: the sheaves of wheat and
            >dogs (not to mention the serpent) feed on the blood of the dying bull.
            >
            This is exactly the problem with the last supper. Eating the flesh and
            blood is something that fits in well with the Hellenistic Mystery
            religions but is complete sacrilege in the Jewish context. But Paul 20
            years after the crucifixion is talking about Jesus and the tradition of
            the last supper! If Jesus was historical, which I do not doubt, and a
            believing Jew, which I do not doubt, where does eating his flesh and
            drinking his blood come from?

            Bruce Chilton has solved the problem by saying that Jesus was trying to
            replace the sacrificial rituals of the Temple. When he says this is my
            body over the bread and this is my blood over the wine, he doesn't mean
            His body and blood, he means that the bread replaces the flesh of the
            animal sacrifice and the wine replaces the blood of the animal
            sacrifice. He is seeking to abolish the institution of the Temple.
            Which is one reason that Judas betrayed him, he was going too far for a
            devout Jew of his day.

            I have solved the problem a different way. Jesus was saying I am the
            sacrifice, but he was also saying that the holy spirit of God was in his
            disciples, that the Temple would be destoyed in the coming reign of God,
            and that in the Kingdom God would be everywhere reigning in the hearts
            of men. The flesh and blood that God eats during the Temple sacrifice
            is now offerred up to the God living in the disciples.

            One reason that Christianity spread in the Hellenistic world is that the
            last supper seems like a version of the tradition of the vegetation gods.

            >
            >As for the Bible, I am also not convinced that its purpose is to help us pray. Like most
            >sacred scriptures, it attempts to encapsulate some basic beliefs common to a specific
            >culture, in this case Hellenistic Christians. It is the rough equivalent to secular humanism
            >today, or at least as it appears in Europe. That which makes "sense" to one people in one
            >particular time is destined to appear absurd and nonsensical to a different people in a
            >different time. Put differently, the Greek philosophers got the elements of the world
            >wrong by our standards but were closer with their mathematical proofs.
            >
            Intellectually I have to agree with you, there is such cultural
            diversity that any one tradition seems like an individual flowering.
            Experientially I have to say that there is a unity within the diversity,
            a design within which all the flowers bloom.

            >
            >"Anything capable of being believed in is an image of truth."- Blake
            >
            >"Everything fragmentary is blameworthy." - Goethe
            >
            >
            >--- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, vincent@... wrote:
            >
            >
            >>>My question is, why would he be so convinced that his death would bring
            >>>on the resurrection of the dead?
            >>>
            >>>Any ideas?
            >>>
            >>>Dan
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>Well according to the New Testament, there were many resurrected dead when
            >>he was resurrected. It seems as I recall from reading that the dead that
            >>were resurrected were no very welcome.
            >>
            >>The whole point of the whole bible is simply to get you to pray
            >>effectively, Dan. Jesus had prayed effectively on so many occasions it
            >>would be hard to imagine him having a doubt that would stop him.
            >>
            >>Read John chapter eight again, and realize that he is try to tell them
            >>that he ascends from the earth and then descends from heaven, as he is
            >>"sent by God", not of his own power. He solved the transportation problem,
            >>and he paryed that his disciples and those who believe him would be sent
            >>in the same way that he was sent from place to place.
            >>
            >>Work on being sent, Dan. This is what salvation is, God responding to your
            >>prayer, the prayer to be sent, or a prayer to restore your life.
            >>
            >>God answering prayer is salvation. What else could it be?
            >>
            >>
            >>In His yeshua,
            >>
            >>Vince
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
            >http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
            >
            >To UNsubscribe, send email to:
            >sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Daniel N. Washburn
            ... Matthew s story of the empty tomb has a mini-resurrection attached. When Jesus dies and the veil is split there is an earthquake, tombs are opened and many
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 30, 2009
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              vincent@... wrote:

              >>My question is, why would he be so convinced that his death would bring
              >>on the resurrection of the dead?
              >>
              >>Any ideas?
              >>
              >>Dan
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >Well according to the New Testament, there were many resurrected dead when
              >he was resurrected. It seems as I recall from reading that the dead that
              >were resurrected were no very welcome.
              >
              Matthew's story of the empty tomb has a mini-resurrection attached.
              When Jesus dies and the veil is split there is an earthquake, tombs are
              opened and many of the dead are awakened, but they have to wait three
              days in the tombs for Jesus' resurrection before they can emerge.

              >
              >The whole point of the whole bible is simply to get you to pray
              >effectively, Dan. Jesus had prayed effectively on so many occasions it
              >would be hard to imagine him having a doubt that would stop him.
              >
              I agree that the basis is to get you to experience God, but there is
              alot of other stuff in there, too!

              >
              >Read John chapter eight again, and realize that he is try to tell them
              >that he ascends from the earth and then descends from heaven, as he is
              >"sent by God", not of his own power. He solved the transportation problem,
              >and he paryed that his disciples and those who believe him would be sent
              >in the same way that he was sent from place to place.
              >
              >Work on being sent, Dan. This is what salvation is, God responding to your
              >prayer, the prayer to be sent, or a prayer to restore your life.
              >
              >God answering prayer is salvation. What else could it be?
              >
              >
              >In His yeshua,
              >
              >Vince
              >
              >
              Is God outside or inside? or both, or only outside?

              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
              >http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
              >
              >To UNsubscribe, send email to:
              >sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • vincent@dmv.com
              ... God is omnipresent, so both is the approximate answer, since there is more than one way in which this could be true, considering the complexity of modern
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 30, 2009
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                >>
                >>
                > Is God outside or inside? or both, or only outside?
                >
                >>

                God is omnipresent, so both is the approximate answer, since there is more
                than one way in which this could be true, considering the complexity of
                modern cosmology.

                Even though it is true that God is omnipresent, Rabbis say that existence
                is an inferior state, so God does not exist in the ordinary sense. God is
                likened to no-thing, an 'is' near the ground of being, inhabiting the
                endless light which preceeded and is beyond our universe.

                In the modern sense it seems that God is inhabiting the near infinite
                energy of the quantum vacuum. Cern is expected to test the vacuum soon.
                There is a Nobel Laurette who fears that the testing of the vacuum might
                be too dangerous, unleashing a huge energy. That would be Allan Torun if I
                recall correctly.
              • Arijah Ankh Khalid
                what the HELL does this have to do with sacred landscapes? just gets on my nerves so bad to see people vomiting religion everywhere they go. completely
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 18, 2009
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                  what the HELL does this have to do with sacred landscapes?
                  just gets on my nerves so bad to see people vomiting religion everywhere they go.

                  completely inappropriate.


                  --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel N. Washburn" <danw@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Let us for a moment assume that the passion narrative is pretty much
                  > historically true. Jesus knew from disciples like Nicodemus and Joseph
                  > of Arimathea, who were spies in the power structure, that there had
                  > been a decision taken to kill him and later he knew that Judas had
                  > betrayed him and was leading the authorities to him at a certain hour.
                  >
                  > Because he believed that his death would be followed within days by the
                  > resurrection of the dead and he felt God was calling him to do it, he
                  > decided to sacrifice himself to bring in the Reign of God.
                  >
                  > Hence he went up to Jerusalem predicting his death and the immediate
                  > beginning of the resurrection.
                  > The expulsion of the money changers was a deliberate provocation to get
                  > the authorities to arrest and execute him.
                  > At the last supper he knew about Judas and said one of you will betray me.
                  > He knew that Judas would come to Gethsemane at a certain hour, hence he
                  > says the one who is going to betray me is coming now.
                  > He did not defend himself at the trial because he wanted to be executed.
                  >
                  > He predicts the destruction of the temple. He doesn't say so but this
                  > will be a part of the resurrection--God shifts from the Temple into the
                  > hearts of men.
                  >
                  > During the last supper he is saying I am the sacrifice--eat the flesh of
                  > the sacrifice, drink the blood of the sacrifice. In the Temple the
                  > priests eat the flesh of the sacrifice but only God eats the flesh and
                  > drinks the blood.
                  >
                  > He is saying the Holy Spirit lives in you now and in the Kingdom God
                  > will live in you fully. My sacrifice whll bring about the destruction
                  > of this world and the fullness of God in your hearts. I offer up my
                  > body to the God in you.
                  >
                  > I suspect that he thought his sacrifice would spare his disciples the
                  > tribulation, the final period of suffering before the end of days--his
                  > execution would initiate the resurrection of the dead.
                  >
                  > My question is, why would he be so convinced that his death would bring
                  > on the resurrection of the dead?
                  >
                  > Any ideas?
                  >
                  > Dan
                  >
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