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Just who do you think you are, Jesus?

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  • Daniel N. Washburn
    The historical Jesus has been the subject of a huge amount of scholarly work in the last few years. Who did Jesus conceive himself to be? Did he think he was
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2007
      The historical Jesus has been the subject of a huge amount of scholarly
      work in the last few years. Who did Jesus conceive himself to be? Did he
      think he was Elijah, the escholological prohet like Moses, the Son of
      Man mentioned in the Book of Daniel, the Suffering Servant from Isaiah,
      the Davidic Messiah, a Son of God, the only begotten Son of God? Was he
      a social reformer, a prophet, a wandering philosopher, a
      magician-exorcist, a disciple of Sophia the female hypostatis of God's
      Wisdom, a sage, a buddhist, an apocalyptic madman?

      Here I solve the problem in a few short paragraphs. Some of these
      references are quoted from memory, so don't take them as gospel, so to
      speak. This is really a draft for myself, but I'm gonna let you in on
      the secret, just because we have been hobnobbing on this list for years
      together.

      John the Baptist believed that there was one who would come after him,
      more powerful than he, who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire.
      Jesus saw himself as this figure predicted by John. When John sent his
      disciples to Jesus to ask, ‘Are you the Coming One?’ Jesus answered by
      quoting from Isaiah, “...the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
      lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear...” (Lk 7:22, Mt 11:2-6, Is
      35:5-6) In effect he answered, ‘Yes, I am the more powerful one that you
      have been expecting. I can work miracles by the Holy Spirit.’ John
      baptized in living water and cited Is 40:3 about himself, “In the
      wilderness prepare the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a
      highway for our God.” If Jesus had continued his own quote from Isaiah,
      he would have said, “For waters shall break forth in the wilderness, and
      streams in the desert... And a highway shall be there, and it shall be
      called the Holy Way;” (Is 35:6-8). Hence Jesus’ answer indicated a real
      continuity with the Baptist and in effect said, ‘I am the next step in
      your own work.’ Jesus saw himself as the Coming One, the Spirit-filled
      successor to John.

      Who was this Coming One? We can deduce the main outlines from gospel
      material about John: “After me comes one more powerful than I, the
      latchet of whose shoes I am unworthy to stoop down and unloose, he shall
      baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire.” The Coming One is a human
      being, filled with Spirit-power. He is to come soon, since John sent
      disciples to Jesus to ask if he were the one. John taught the immanence
      of eschatological judgment. “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the
      trees, and every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and
      thrown into the fire.” The Coming One administers the eschatological
      Judgment of God, since he baptizes the faithful with the Holy Spirit and
      burns up those who do evil in consuming Fire.

      Jesus believed John to be Elijah, the eschatological prophet who was to
      return before the beginning of the end time. We should give this opinion
      some weight as a description of John’s self-understanding, since Jesus
      was not only baptized by John but very probably was one of his
      disciples. Other disciples of John had similar opinions. Oscar Cullman
      in his Christology of the New Testament says that remnants of the
      disciples of John seen in the Clementine writings and in the writings of
      the Mandaeans believed John to be the final eschatological prophet. Also
      the first chapters of the Gospel of John are written in part as an
      argument against followers of the Baptist who saw him as an important
      eschatological figure.

      Thus it is likely that John saw himself as Elijah. The evidence to the
      contrary that we see in the NT is part of John’s attempt to keep the
      Prophetic secret, just as Jesus kept the Messianic secret. They
      concealed their identities for the same reason–fear of being arrested
      and executed for sedition against the state. When asked who he was, John
      answered with an obscure passage from Isaiah. When Jesus was asked
      whether he was the Coming One, he answered with an obscure passage from
      Isaiah. Jesus replied obliquely in the same manner as his teacher, with
      the assurance that John could read between the lines.

      We can identify a messianic prophesy found at Qumran (4Q521) as the
      background for the exchange between John and Jesus about the Coming One.
      Fragment 2 ii reads, “...heaven and earth will obey his messiah, (2)
      [and all th]at is in them will not turn away from the commandments of
      holy ones. ...(7) For he will glorify the pious on the throne of an
      eternal kingdom, (8) releasing captives, giving sight to the blind and
      raising up those who are bo[wed down]. ...(12) for he will heal the
      wounded, give life to the dead and preach good news to the poor...”

      The phrases ‘releasing captives’ and ‘preach good news to the poor’
      identify Is 61:1 as a source for this prophecy: “The spirit of the Lord
      God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me; he has sent me to
      preach good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim
      liberty to the captives and release to the prisoners...”

      Jesus in his response to John says, “...the deaf hear, the dead are
      raised up, the poor have good news preached to them.” There is no
      mention of giving life to the dead in Is 61:1, so Jesus is echoing the
      messianic prophesy from Qumran with its reference to giving life to the
      dead when he makes his reply to John.

      There are several phrases in the Qumran text that indicate that Jesus
      thought he was fulfilling this messianic prophesy. Verse 7 speaks of an
      ‘eternal kingdom,’ and Jesus taught about the coming of the eternal
      Kingdom of God. The pious will be glorified on the throne of the eternal
      kingdom, and Jesus said that his followers would reign on thrones in
      heaven. Heaven and earth will obey the commandments of the holy ones and
      Jesus said his followers could work miracles if they had sufficient
      faith. [loosed on earth, loosed in heaven]. The messiah will ‘give life
      to the dead,’ and Jesus not only taught the coming resurrection but is
      reported to have raised people up from the dead while he was still alive.

      Hence Jesus thought he was the Messiah, a Messiah in the mold of John's
      Coming One and the messianic prophecy from Qumran.

      Aside from the spiritual content of his teaching, which I think shows
      him to be a great mystic, it seems to me likely that he also believed he
      was to be the human King in God's coming eternal Kingdom, since he
      fulfilled an OT prophesy of Kingship in his glorious entry into
      Jerusalem. There is also the fact that the Romans posted the sign, Jesus
      of Nazareth, King of the Jews, on his cross.

      Dan
    • vincent beall
      ... Dan, When Jesus entered into Jerusalem dressed as King ridding on the back of the colt, he entered on the day of Jerusalem Purim. The Purim celebration is
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 2, 2007
        --- "Daniel N. Washburn" <danw@...>
        wrote:


        >
        > Aside from the spiritual content of his teaching,
        > which I think shows
        > him to be a great mystic, it seems to me likely that
        > he also believed he
        > was to be the human King in God's coming eternal
        > Kingdom, since he
        > fulfilled an OT prophesy of Kingship in his glorious
        > entry into
        > Jerusalem. There is also the fact that the Romans
        > posted the sign, Jesus
        > of Nazareth, King of the Jews, on his cross.
        >
        > Dan
        >
        >
        >
        Dan,

        When Jesus entered into Jerusalem dressed as King
        ridding on the back of the colt, he entered on the day
        of Jerusalem Purim. The Purim celebration is like a
        kind of Jewish Halloween where anyone can dress up as
        anybody the choose. Ordinarily one may choose to
        costume as a wealthy person. Since the purpose of the
        days celebration is to make a meal of the first fruits
        of the harvest and tro invite the poorest people of
        the community to the table for a good meal.

        So Jesus was cheered as he entered probably for many
        reasons. He was certainly making a sign that he was
        setting a large table to feed the poor, which seems to
        have gotten him a great bravo from the crowds.

        I believe in the Jewish sense it represent good
        natured playful activity in celebration of the first
        fruits of harvest.

        Vincent






        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • danw888
        Thanks, Vincent! I ll take your Purim idea into consideration in further deliberations. You remember though that he was hailed as Son of David (the messianic
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 2, 2007
          Thanks, Vincent!

          I'll take your Purim idea into consideration in further
          deliberations.

          You remember though that he was hailed as Son of David (the
          messianic king was to be a son of david) during the entrance into
          Jerusalem and that Matthew (21.5) especially thought this was the
          enactment of an OT prophecy (Zechariah 9.9) of the coming of a
          king. These could of course be later tehological overlays on the
          original event, so I should look for more proof on the kingship idea.

          Dan


          --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, vincent beall
          <theosophers@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- "Daniel N. Washburn" <danw@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          >
          > >
          > > Aside from the spiritual content of his teaching,
          > > which I think shows
          > > him to be a great mystic, it seems to me likely that
          > > he also believed he
          > > was to be the human King in God's coming eternal
          > > Kingdom, since he
          > > fulfilled an OT prophesy of Kingship in his glorious
          > > entry into
          > > Jerusalem. There is also the fact that the Romans
          > > posted the sign, Jesus
          > > of Nazareth, King of the Jews, on his cross.
          > >
          > > Dan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > Dan,
          >
          > When Jesus entered into Jerusalem dressed as King
          > ridding on the back of the colt, he entered on the day
          > of Jerusalem Purim. The Purim celebration is like a
          > kind of Jewish Halloween where anyone can dress up as
          > anybody the choose. Ordinarily one may choose to
          > costume as a wealthy person. Since the purpose of the
          > days celebration is to make a meal of the first fruits
          > of the harvest and tro invite the poorest people of
          > the community to the table for a good meal.
          >
          > So Jesus was cheered as he entered probably for many
          > reasons. He was certainly making a sign that he was
          > setting a large table to feed the poor, which seems to
          > have gotten him a great bravo from the crowds.
          >
          > I believe in the Jewish sense it represent good
          > natured playful activity in celebration of the first
          > fruits of harvest.
          >
          > Vincent
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          _____________________________________________________________________
          _______________
          > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's
          updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
          > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
          >
        • danw888
          Hi, Vincent Did a little Wikipedia research on the timing for the Entrance into Jerusalem. Seems to be associated with Passover or Sukkoth, not Purim. Dan
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 2, 2007
            Hi, Vincent

            Did a little Wikipedia research on the timing for the Entrance into
            Jerusalem. Seems to be associated with Passover or Sukkoth, not
            Purim.

            Dan

            Wikipedia:

            Entrance to Jerusalem

            The Gospels report Jesus' Entrance to Jerusalem as having occurred
            shortly before the Passover. However, some scholars have argued that
            this actually happened at Sukkoth or Tabernacles, based on the part
            of the waving of palm fronds and the Hosanna cry during that feast.
            The date given in the Gospels is seen as either an accidental error
            or a deliberate change.

            The word Sukkot is the plural of the Hebrew word sukkah, meaning
            booth or hut. During this holiday, Jews are instructed to construct
            a temporary structure in which to eat their meals, entertain guests,
            relax, and even sleep. The sukkah is reminiscent of the type of huts
            in which the ancient Israelites dwelt during their 40 years of
            wandering in the desert after the Exodus from Egypt, and is intended
            to reflect God's benevolence in providing for all the Jews' needs in
            the desert.

            Purim (Hebrew: פורים Pûrîm "lots", from Akkadian pūru) is a Jewish
            holiday that commemorates the deliverance from Haman's plot to
            annihilate all the Jews of the Persian Empire, who had survived the
            Babylonian captivity, after Persia had conquered Babylonia who in
            turn had destroyed the First Temple and dispersed the Jewish people;
            as recorded in the Biblical Book of Esther. It is characterized by
            public recitation of the Book of Esther, giving mutual gifts of food
            and drink, giving charity to the poor, and a celebratory meal
            (Esther 9:22); other customs include drinking wine, wearing of masks
            and costumes, and public celebration





            --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Thanks, Vincent!
            >
            > I'll take your Purim idea into consideration in further
            > deliberations.
            >
            > You remember though that he was hailed as Son of David (the
            > messianic king was to be a son of david) during the entrance into
            > Jerusalem and that Matthew (21.5) especially thought this was the
            > enactment of an OT prophecy (Zechariah 9.9) of the coming of a
            > king. These could of course be later tehological overlays on the
            > original event, so I should look for more proof on the kingship
            idea.
            >
            > Dan
            >
            >
            > --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, vincent beall
            > <theosophers@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > --- "Daniel N. Washburn" <danw@>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Aside from the spiritual content of his teaching,
            > > > which I think shows
            > > > him to be a great mystic, it seems to me likely that
            > > > he also believed he
            > > > was to be the human King in God's coming eternal
            > > > Kingdom, since he
            > > > fulfilled an OT prophesy of Kingship in his glorious
            > > > entry into
            > > > Jerusalem. There is also the fact that the Romans
            > > > posted the sign, Jesus
            > > > of Nazareth, King of the Jews, on his cross.
            > > >
            > > > Dan
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > Dan,
            > >
            > > When Jesus entered into Jerusalem dressed as King
            > > ridding on the back of the colt, he entered on the day
            > > of Jerusalem Purim. The Purim celebration is like a
            > > kind of Jewish Halloween where anyone can dress up as
            > > anybody the choose. Ordinarily one may choose to
            > > costume as a wealthy person. Since the purpose of the
            > > days celebration is to make a meal of the first fruits
            > > of the harvest and tro invite the poorest people of
            > > the community to the table for a good meal.
            > >
            > > So Jesus was cheered as he entered probably for many
            > > reasons. He was certainly making a sign that he was
            > > setting a large table to feed the poor, which seems to
            > > have gotten him a great bravo from the crowds.
            > >
            > > I believe in the Jewish sense it represent good
            > > natured playful activity in celebration of the first
            > > fruits of harvest.
            > >
            > > Vincent
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            _____________________________________________________________________
            > _______________
            > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now
            (it's
            > updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
            > > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
            > >
            >
          • vincent beall
            ... Hello again Dan, I hope I am mistaken but I very sure that it was Jerusalem Purim that he was celebrating. He had the day before the Jerusalem celebration,
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 2, 2007
              --- danw888 <danw@...> wrote:

              > Hi, Vincent
              >
              > Did a little Wikipedia research on the timing for
              > the Entrance into
              > Jerusalem. Seems to be associated with Passover or
              > Sukkoth, not
              > Purim.
              >
              > Dan

              Hello again Dan,

              I hope I am mistaken but I very sure that it was
              Jerusalem Purim that he was celebrating. He had the
              day before the Jerusalem celebration, celebrated
              Countryside Purim. You see there are two Purim feasts.
              First Purim is celebrated in the country then the
              following day celebrated in Jerusalem, this for
              security reasom; being that everyone is in masquarade.

              Vincent



              Vincent




              >
              > Wikipedia:
              >
              > Entrance to Jerusalem
              >
              > The Gospels report Jesus' Entrance to Jerusalem as
              > having occurred
              > shortly before the Passover. However, some scholars
              > have argued that
              > this actually happened at Sukkoth or Tabernacles,
              > based on the part
              > of the waving of palm fronds and the Hosanna cry
              > during that feast.
              > The date given in the Gospels is seen as either an
              > accidental error
              > or a deliberate change.
              >
              > The word Sukkot is the plural of the Hebrew word
              > sukkah, meaning
              > booth or hut. During this holiday, Jews are
              > instructed to construct
              > a temporary structure in which to eat their meals,
              > entertain guests,
              > relax, and even sleep. The sukkah is reminiscent of
              > the type of huts
              > in which the ancient Israelites dwelt during their
              > 40 years of
              > wandering in the desert after the Exodus from Egypt,
              > and is intended
              > to reflect God's benevolence in providing for all
              > the Jews' needs in
              > the desert.
              >
              > Purim (Hebrew: פורים
              > Pûrîm "lots", from Akkadian pūru) is a Jewish
              > holiday that commemorates the deliverance from
              > Haman's plot to
              > annihilate all the Jews of the Persian Empire, who
              > had survived the
              > Babylonian captivity, after Persia had conquered
              > Babylonia who in
              > turn had destroyed the First Temple and dispersed
              > the Jewish people;
              > as recorded in the Biblical Book of Esther. It is
              > characterized by
              > public recitation of the Book of Esther, giving
              > mutual gifts of food
              > and drink, giving charity to the poor, and a
              > celebratory meal
              > (Esther 9:22); other customs include drinking wine,
              > wearing of masks
              > and costumes, and public celebration
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com,
              > "danw888" <danw@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks, Vincent!
              > >
              > > I'll take your Purim idea into consideration in
              > further
              > > deliberations.
              > >
              > > You remember though that he was hailed as Son of
              > David (the
              > > messianic king was to be a son of david) during
              > the entrance into
              > > Jerusalem and that Matthew (21.5) especially
              > thought this was the
              > > enactment of an OT prophecy (Zechariah 9.9) of the
              > coming of a
              > > king. These could of course be later tehological
              > overlays on the
              > > original event, so I should look for more proof on
              > the kingship
              > idea.
              > >
              > > Dan
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com,
              > vincent beall
              > > <theosophers@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- "Daniel N. Washburn" <danw@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Aside from the spiritual content of his
              > teaching,
              > > > > which I think shows
              > > > > him to be a great mystic, it seems to me
              > likely that
              > > > > he also believed he
              > > > > was to be the human King in God's coming
              > eternal
              > > > > Kingdom, since he
              > > > > fulfilled an OT prophesy of Kingship in his
              > glorious
              > > > > entry into
              > > > > Jerusalem. There is also the fact that the
              > Romans
              > > > > posted the sign, Jesus
              > > > > of Nazareth, King of the Jews, on his cross.
              > > > >
              > > > > Dan
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > Dan,
              > > >
              > > > When Jesus entered into Jerusalem dressed as
              > King
              > > > ridding on the back of the colt, he entered on
              > the day
              > > > of Jerusalem Purim. The Purim celebration is
              > like a
              > > > kind of Jewish Halloween where anyone can dress
              > up as
              > > > anybody the choose. Ordinarily one may choose to
              > > > costume as a wealthy person. Since the purpose
              > of the
              > > > days celebration is to make a meal of the first
              > fruits
              > > > of the harvest and tro invite the poorest people
              > of
              > > > the community to the table for a good meal.
              > > >
              > > > So Jesus was cheered as he entered probably for
              > many
              > > > reasons. He was certainly making a sign that he
              > was
              > > > setting a large table to feed the poor, which
              > seems to
              > > > have gotten him a great bravo from the crowds.
              > > >
              > > > I believe in the Jewish sense it represent good
              > > > natured playful activity in celebration of the
              > first
              > > > fruits of harvest.
              > > >
              > > > Vincent
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              _____________________________________________________________________
              > > _______________
              > > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly
              > Here and Now
              > (it's
              > > updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
              > > >
              >
              http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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            • vincent beall
              ... Dear Dan, I don t know what to say. I looked up the passages that I cited above, but I cannot now find them. I had meant to type that I hope that I am not
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 2, 2007
                --- vincent beall <theosophers@...> wrote:

                >
                > --- danw888 <danw@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hi, Vincent
                > >
                > > Did a little Wikipedia research on the timing for
                > > the Entrance into
                > > Jerusalem. Seems to be associated with Passover
                > or
                > > Sukkoth, not
                > > Purim.
                > >
                > > Dan
                >
                > Hello again Dan,
                >
                > I hope I am mistaken but I very sure that it was
                > Jerusalem Purim that he was celebrating. He had the
                > day before the Jerusalem celebration, celebrated
                > Countryside Purim. You see there are two Purim
                > feasts.
                > First Purim is celebrated in the country then the
                > following day celebrated in Jerusalem, this for
                > security reasom; being that everyone is in
                > masquarade.
                >
                > Vincent
                >
                >
                >
                Dear Dan,

                I don't know what to say. I looked up the passages
                that I cited above, but I cannot now find them. I had
                meant to type that "I hope that I am not mistaken" in
                the post above, and it seems that I am mistaken in
                thinking that the feast in the country is cited just
                before the next days ride into Jerusalem.

                You might know where the passage is even though
                apparently it is not connected.

                It occurs late in each gospel and in it the disciples
                try to disuade Jesus from going to the country feast
                because they claim that he will be arrested by the
                Jews and futher they advise him, if he has to go to
                wear a disguise. He attends with out a disguise is
                very well recieved, and the scripture states, "no one
                said a word to him" 'concerning his impending arrest'.

                Do you recall such a passage?

                Vincent




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • Ambrose Hawk
                I ve not been following the thread lately but ... one, the acclaim offered to Jesus on his entrance was supposedly excited by his resurrection of Lazarus, thus
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 3, 2007
                  I've not been following the thread lately but ...
                  one, the acclaim offered to Jesus on his entrance was supposedly excited
                  by his resurrection of Lazarus, thus proving his claim of Messianic
                  status in the eyes of the populace.
                  Two no tradition of which I'm aware segregates this entrance from the
                  general celebrations connected with Passover ... modern speculations
                  about this are exactly that and unsupported by evidence.
                  Three, the conjunction of the "save us, son of David" with the
                  politically charged atmosphere of the Passover season fits as a
                  motivation to take extreme action by the authorities.
                  The feast at which he sneaked up to Jerusalem is mentioned in St. John's
                  Gospel ... and is not connected to the Lazarus event nor to the
                  :Passion.

                  Ambrose


                  --
                  IN HOC MODO, MILLIS FRANGITVR!
                • vincent beall
                  Hi Ambrose, ... Thanks in any case, I couldn t find it and it made me worry about multiple worlds theory... Sukkot is celebrated in September and Purim is
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 3, 2007
                    Hi Ambrose,

                    Could you give me a chapter and verse reference for:

                    >The feast at which he sneaked up to Jerusalem is
                    > mentioned in St. John's
                    > Gospel ...

                    Thanks in any case, I couldn't find it and it made me
                    worry about multiple worlds theory...

                    Sukkot is celebrated in September and Purim is
                    celebrated sometime before Passover usually in March.

                    Thanks in advance,

                    Vincent




                    --- Ambrose Hawk <ahawk@...> wrote:

                    > I've not been following the thread lately but ...
                    > one, the acclaim offered to Jesus on his entrance
                    > was supposedly excited
                    > by his resurrection of Lazarus, thus proving his
                    > claim of Messianic
                    > status in the eyes of the populace.
                    > Two no tradition of which I'm aware segregates this
                    > entrance from the
                    > general celebrations connected with Passover ...
                    > modern speculations
                    > about this are exactly that and unsupported by
                    > evidence.
                    > Three, the conjunction of the "save us, son of
                    > David" with the
                    > politically charged atmosphere of the Passover
                    > season fits as a
                    > motivation to take extreme action by the
                    > authorities.
                    > The feast at which he sneaked up to Jerusalem is
                    > mentioned in St. John's
                    > Gospel ... and is not connected to the Lazarus event
                    > nor to the
                    > :Passion.
                    >
                    > Ambrose
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > IN HOC MODO, MILLIS FRANGITVR!
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                  • Daniel N. Washburn
                    Hi, Vincent - The feast where he sneaks up to Jerusalem is at the beginning of chap 7 of John, but it says that this feast is sukkoth/tabernacles. He is there
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 3, 2007
                      Hi, Vincent -

                      The feast where he sneaks up to Jerusalem is at the beginning of chap 7
                      of John, but it says that this feast is sukkoth/tabernacles.

                      He is there in Jerusalem for a feast in John 5.1, too.

                      Dan

                      vincent beall wrote:

                      >Hi Ambrose,
                      >
                      >Could you give me a chapter and verse reference for:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>The feast at which he sneaked up to Jerusalem is
                      >>mentioned in St. John's
                      >>Gospel ...
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >Thanks in any case, I couldn't find it and it made me
                      >worry about multiple worlds theory...
                      >
                      >Sukkot is celebrated in September and Purim is
                      >celebrated sometime before Passover usually in March.
                      >
                      >Thanks in advance,
                      >
                      >Vincent
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >--- Ambrose Hawk <ahawk@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>I've not been following the thread lately but ...
                      >>one, the acclaim offered to Jesus on his entrance
                      >>was supposedly excited
                      >>by his resurrection of Lazarus, thus proving his
                      >>claim of Messianic
                      >>status in the eyes of the populace.
                      >>Two no tradition of which I'm aware segregates this
                      >>entrance from the
                      >>general celebrations connected with Passover ...
                      >>modern speculations
                      >>about this are exactly that and unsupported by
                      >>evidence.
                      >>Three, the conjunction of the "save us, son of
                      >>David" with the
                      >>politically charged atmosphere of the Passover
                      >>season fits as a
                      >>motivation to take extreme action by the
                      >>authorities.
                      >>The feast at which he sneaked up to Jerusalem is
                      >>mentioned in St. John's
                      >>Gospel ... and is not connected to the Lazarus event
                      >>nor to the
                      >>:Passion.
                      >>
                      >>Ambrose
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>--
                      >>IN HOC MODO, MILLIS FRANGITVR!
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Daniel N. Washburn
                      ... This would resonate well with my citation of the messianic prophecy from Qumran, which shows that one mark of the messiah is his ability to raise the dead.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 3, 2007
                        Ambrose Hawk wrote:

                        >I've not been following the thread lately but ...
                        >one, the acclaim offered to Jesus on his entrance was supposedly excited
                        >by his resurrection of Lazarus, thus proving his claim of Messianic
                        >status in the eyes of the populace.
                        >
                        This would resonate well with my citation of the messianic prophecy from
                        Qumran, which shows that one mark of the messiah is his ability to raise
                        the dead.

                        >Two no tradition of which I'm aware segregates this entrance from the
                        >general celebrations connected with Passover ... modern speculations
                        >about this are exactly that and unsupported by evidence.
                        >
                        Speculations can crystalize into tested truth. There is some evidence,
                        whether it is good or not is another question.

                        >Three, the conjunction of the "save us, son of David" with the
                        >politically charged atmosphere of the Passover season fits as a
                        >motivation to take extreme action by the authorities.
                        >The feast at which he sneaked up to Jerusalem is mentioned in St. John's
                        >Gospel ... and is not connected to the Lazarus event nor to the
                        >:Passion.
                        >
                        I agree. The crowds calling him son of david would be a real incitement
                        for the authorities to arrest and execute him.

                        Dan

                        >
                        >Ambrose
                        >
                        >
                        >--
                        >IN HOC MODO, MILLIS FRANGITVR!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Ambrose Hawk
                        Dan, More and more, I m beginning to personally think that both St. John the Baptist and Jesus were highly influenced by the movement which gave rise to the
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
                          Dan,
                          More and more, I'm beginning to personally think that both St. John the
                          Baptist and Jesus were highly influenced by the movement which gave rise
                          to the Qumran community, whether or not it was "Essene" or not. They
                          keep finding passages which almost directly correspond to what those two
                          taught ... passages which the old redaction crowd kept saying they
                          couldn't have taught because nobody else at that time was teaching it
                          ... (wrong not only in fact but in logic, LOL)/
                          I also personally think that there were customs, traditions, and even a
                          textual variation between the "Gallileans" (many of whom had been
                          Judaized by the Hasmoneans anyway) and the Jerusalem crowd.
                          Can't prove that one at all, I'm afraid!
                          (grin)
                          Ambrose

                          PS -- I'm still searching, but we Cherokee as well as the Catholics have
                          traditions of angelic beings descending to earth and thus consecrating a
                          site ... the great Marian visionary enclaves, for instance ...
                          A

                          --
                          IN HOC MODO, MILLIS FRANGITVR!
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