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Re: [sl] Re: Evolution of Morality

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  • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
    In a message dated 12/20/2006 9:34:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, groups@gravesnet.com writes: I tend to believe people obey the law out of fear of negative
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 20, 2006
      In a message dated 12/20/2006 9:34:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, groups@... writes:
      I tend
      to believe people obey the law out of fear of negative consequence
      moreso than out of respect for it.
       
      I was watching the television show "NCIS" last night when one of the characters is asked to define the distinctive nuances between ethics and morals.
      His answer was: Ethics is what tells a man it is wrong to cheat on his wife. Morals is what prevents him from doing it."
       
      This is rather flippant but I believe it argument has merit. If God is in the details, I believe it would be in the area of morals more than ethics.
       
      Now, to change the subject: Pursuant to a book project I am nursing along, about gardening with plants mentioned in the Bible, I have stumbled across and over the larger subject of "Sacred Geometry."
      In fact, I was guided to this list via a web site I was visiting related to this subject.
       
      I am mathematically challenged.
       
      I have picked up a few books on the subject and become bogged down in the math.
       
      The titles I have procured include: A Beginner's Guide to constructing the Universe," (Michael Schneider);"Divine Proportion" by Priya Hemenway; and "Sacred Geometry," by Stephen Skinner.
       
      I have attempted to "get into" the Beginner's Guide with little success. The other titles are on my to-do list.
       
      Any thoughts on how I might best proceed? Familiarity with any of these authors?
      Other titles I might benefit from seeking out? (I guess I really need a "Sacred Geometry for Dummies" and for all I know it's out there. I just haven't come across it.
       
      Also, a title I ordered the other day, on a whim; "Honey from Stone," by Chet Raymo. The sub title is something to the effect of  finding god in the natural world.
      Any input from anyone about the relative merits of any of these titles will be gratefully received.
       
      SaraAnne
    • danw888
      Hi, SaraAnne Beginners Guide is one of the best, in my opinion. I t s worth giving another try. You might just skim through it looking for topics that
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
        Hi, SaraAnne

        Beginners Guide is one of the best, in my opinion. I't's worth giving
        another try. You might just skim through it looking for topics that
        interest you.

        Skinner and Hemenway I haven't read.

        The Geometry of Art and Life is a good readable intro and The Power of
        Limits has a lot of proportional analysis of leaves and flowers that
        you might be interested in.

        How did you get to Sacred Geometry from bible gardening?

        Dan
      • Chris
        I agree with Dan. However, the simplest book on the topic is probably Nigel Pennick s Sacred Geometry. You have to be careful with his numbers--some of his
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
          I agree with Dan. However, the simplest book on the topic is probably
          Nigel Pennick's Sacred Geometry. You have to be careful with his
          numbers--some of his information on Moses' tabernacle is just wrong.
          He also speculates where he shouldn't--but then again, that's why his
          books sell. But he does explain things well and it worked for me as an
          introduction to the topic.

          I have always wanted to try Miranda Lundy's Sacred Geometry too but
          haven't seen it yet.

          What is that you want to know?

          -Chris

          --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi, SaraAnne
          >
          > Beginners Guide is one of the best, in my opinion. I't's worth giving
          > another try. You might just skim through it looking for topics that
          > interest you.
          >
          > Skinner and Hemenway I haven't read.
          >
          > The Geometry of Art and Life is a good readable intro and The Power of
          > Limits has a lot of proportional analysis of leaves and flowers that
          > you might be interested in.
          >
          > How did you get to Sacred Geometry from bible gardening?
          >
          > Dan
          >
        • Chris
          Oh, try David Fideler s Jesus Christ: Sun of God . That is also an excellent introduction to the topic. That is by far the best source for follow-up works
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
            Oh, try David Fideler's "Jesus Christ: Sun of God". That is also an
            excellent introduction to the topic. That is by far the best source
            for follow-up works too--WONDERFUL bibliography.

            Also, Robert Lawlor's Sacred Geometry is also a good starting point.
            http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Geometry-Philosophy-Practice-Imagination/dp/0500810303

            There is another title I want to recommend but can't think of it at
            this time. Will follow-up later.

            Mean time, try this wonderful bibliography page for ideas (and site
            too, if you haven't already seen it):

            http://www.sacredsites.com/bibliography/bib1/index.html

            -Chris

            --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <groups@...> wrote:
            >
            > I agree with Dan. However, the simplest book on the topic is probably
            > Nigel Pennick's Sacred Geometry. You have to be careful with his
            > numbers--some of his information on Moses' tabernacle is just wrong.
            > He also speculates where he shouldn't--but then again, that's why his
            > books sell. But he does explain things well and it worked for me as an
            > introduction to the topic.
            >
            > I have always wanted to try Miranda Lundy's Sacred Geometry too but
            > haven't seen it yet.
            >
            > What is that you want to know?
            >
            > -Chris
            >
            > --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi, SaraAnne
            > >
            > > Beginners Guide is one of the best, in my opinion. I't's worth
            giving
            > > another try. You might just skim through it looking for topics that
            > > interest you.
            > >
            > > Skinner and Hemenway I haven't read.
            > >
            > > The Geometry of Art and Life is a good readable intro and The
            Power of
            > > Limits has a lot of proportional analysis of leaves and flowers that
            > > you might be interested in.
            > >
            > > How did you get to Sacred Geometry from bible gardening?
            > >
            > > Dan
            > >
            >
          • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
            In a message dated 12/21/2006 10:39:55 A.M. Central Standard Time, danw@netmastersinc.com writes: How did you get to Sacred Geometry from bible gardening? Hi
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
              In a message dated 12/21/2006 10:39:55 A.M. Central Standard Time, danw@... writes:
              How did you get to Sacred Geometry from bible gardening?
              Hi Dan -- and thanks for the comments/ideas...
               
              The answer to your question is convoluted and tied to my habit of over-researching my subjects, no matter what they are and where they lead me.
               
              I like to refer to Mark Twain who once offered: "I interrupted my education long enough to go to school"
              insofar as my quest for knowledge/understanding is far more universal than it ever was when I was in college (or before).
               
              Ironically, for my 60-year-old brain, this has a bit more challenging a task than it was when I was, say, 20.
               
              Part of my book proposal includes garden/landscape designs and an attempt to define "sacred landscapes." And, realistically, I probably need to limit my introduction to this chapter to a mere page or two. I need to offer a brief and succinct "for dummies" introduction to the concept and field (as it were) of study.    
               
              An Internet friend in France suggested the study of Sacred Geometry and, curiously, within a month I attended a lecture by a gentleman at Purdue University on this very subject, related to the labyrinth at new Harmony, Indiana that he designed/engineered to match, down to the last millimeter, the one at Chartres Cathedral in France.
              I knew his subject was labyrinths -- I did not realize the specific topic of sacred geometry was in his agenda that night until he spoke the words.
              Serendipity for sure. And I don't much believe in the randomness of coincidences like that.
               
              I live about 35 miles from New Harmony and visit that site regularly.
               
              I'll keep plugging along and will re-approach Beginner's Guide .... today/tonight is Solstice. I generally hunker down in January and February and do a lot of reading.
               
              Happily, the guy at Purdue, whose name escapes me right now, has offered to help me if I become so stuck I can't find my way out...  =)
               
              All this for a page or two of manuscript.
              I am nuts.
               
              SaraAnne
               
            • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
              In a message dated 12/21/2006 11:05:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, groups@gravesnet.com writes: What is that you want to know? Well, Chris... I guess I want
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
                In a message dated 12/21/2006 11:05:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, groups@... writes:
                What is that you want to know?
                Well, Chris... I guess I want to be conversant enough to write a page or two intro to people with virtually no interest in pursuing the subject further.
                And I want to know everything.... sigh....
                Thanks for the Nigel Pennick reference....
                 
                SaraAnne
              • Marc Steurbaut
                I have Le Symbolisme Hermétique by Oswald Wirth, published in 1931 and with a dedication from the author. I inherited it from my grandfather. Very
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
                  I have "Le Symbolisme Hermétique" by Oswald Wirth, published in 1931 and with a dedication from the author. I inherited it from my grandfather. Very interesting. It's still published I think.  
                   
                  -------Oorspronkelijk bericht-------
                   
                  Van: danw888
                  Datum: 21/12/2006 17:31:41
                  Onderwerp: [sl] Re: Sacred Geometry Books
                   


                  Hi, SaraAnne

                  Beginners Guide is one of the best, in my opinion. I't's worth giving
                  another try. You might just skim through it looking for topics that
                  interest you.

                  Skinner and Hemenway I haven't read.

                  The Geometry of Art and Life is a good readable intro and The Power of
                  Limits has a lot of proportional analysis of leaves and flowers that
                  you might be interested in.

                  How did you get to Sacred Geometry from bible gardening?

                  Dan

                   
                • Chris
                  okay. btw, have you looked at this website? http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit1/INTRO.html I am going to dig around tonight to see if my
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
                    okay.

                    btw, have you looked at this website?

                    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit1/INTRO.html

                    I am going to dig around tonight to see if my summary from mircea
                    eliade's encylcopedia is worth sending you or not.

                    more later,

                    -Chris

                    --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, SaraAnneC@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/21/2006 11:05:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
                    > groups@... writes:
                    >
                    > What is that you want to know?
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, Chris... I guess I want to be conversant enough to write a
                    page or two
                    > intro to people with virtually no interest in pursuing the subject
                    further.
                    > And I want to know everything.... sigh....
                    > Thanks for the Nigel Pennick reference....
                    >
                    > SaraAnne
                    >
                  • einar kvaran
                    SaraAnne, If, or better yet, WHEN, the name comes to you do you mind passing it on. My daughter is a Ph. D. student in the history department at Purdue, and .
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 21, 2006
                      SaraAnne, If, or better yet, WHEN, the name comes to
                      you do you mind passing it on. My daughter is a Ph.
                      D. student in the history department at Purdue, and .
                      . . .... like you I don't really believe in the
                      randomness of coincidences like this. Einar

                      --- SaraAnneC@... wrote:

                      > curiously, within a month I attended a lecture by a
                      > gentleman at Purdue University on this very
                      subject, related to the
                      > labyrinth at new Harmony, Indiana that he
                      designed/engineered to match, down to the > last
                      millimeter, the one at Chartres Cathedral in France..
                      And I don't much believe in the randomness of
                      > coincidences like that.

                      >
                      > Happily, the guy at Purdue, whose name escapes me
                      > right now, has offered to
                      > help me if I become so stuck I can't find my way
                      > out... =)



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                    • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
                      In a message dated 12/21/2006 5:08:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, eeklon@yahoo.com writes: If, or better yet, WHEN, the name comes to you do you mind passing
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 22, 2006
                        In a message dated 12/21/2006 5:08:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, eeklon@... writes:
                        If, or better yet, WHEN, the name comes to
                        you do you mind passing it on.  My daughter is a Ph.
                        D. student in the history department at Purdue,
                        Good morning Einar;
                         
                        It has been something like three, possibly four years since I attended that lecture. It will be a coincidence of epic proportion if I ever recall that gentleman's name, LOL
                         
                        In the meantime, I suspect that he can be found out, as it were, if your daughter were to make inquiries specific to the labyrinth at New Harmony, Indiana, as he was instrumental in getting it mapped out for the people who then actually built the thing... I recall him being probably in his 50s or early 60s... Caucasian.... short brown hair (Sounds like an episode of Law and Order, eh?).
                         
                        Type "New Harmony Labyrinth" in the Google search engine and you'll get several hits; you want one with the granite structure, not the Harmonist structure made with shrubbery (although it is a much more practical application from a monetary standpoint). There will be pictures of both.
                         
                        And yes, that little tiny town sports TWO labyrinths! An embarrassment of riches, for sure...
                         
                        SaraAnne
                      • Daniel N. Washburn
                        I think this is your Purdue Professor: Kent Schuette: The head architect for the magnificent Cathedral Labyrinth and Sacred Garden in New Harmony, Indiana,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 22, 2006
                          I think this is your Purdue Professor:

                          Kent Schuette: The head architect for the magnificent Cathedral
                          Labyrinth and Sacred Garden in New Harmony, Indiana, Kent Schuette went
                          to chartres and measured the labyrinth in person. he and his team then
                          constructed a full-scale replica in granite, in a setting which reflects
                          the dimensions of the nave of Chartres Cathedral. This is arguable the
                          most beautiful labyrinth in the United States. Kent Schuette has used
                          his interest in sacred geometry to study the original design for New
                          Harmony, founded in 1814 by Harmonists who also included a labyrinth as
                          part of their community. He is approaching retirement from Purdue
                          University where he is adjunct professor of landscape architecture.

                          SaraAnneC@... wrote:

                          > In a message dated 12/21/2006 5:08:01 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                          > eeklon@... writes:
                          >
                          > If, or better yet, WHEN, the name comes to
                          > you do you mind passing it on. My daughter is a Ph.
                          > D. student in the history department at Purdue,
                          >
                          > Good morning Einar;
                          >
                          > It has been something like three, possibly four years since I attended
                          > that lecture. It will be a coincidence of epic proportion if I ever
                          > recall that gentleman's name, LOL
                          >
                          > In the meantime, I suspect that he can be found out, as it were, if
                          > your daughter were to make inquiries specific to the labyrinth at New
                          > Harmony, Indiana, as he was instrumental in getting it mapped out for
                          > the people who then actually built the thing... I recall him
                          > being probably in his 50s or early 60s... Caucasian.... short brown
                          > hair (Sounds like an episode of Law and Order, eh?).
                          >
                          > Type "New Harmony Labyrinth" in the Google search engine and you'll
                          > get several hits; you want one with the granite structure, not the
                          > Harmonist structure made with shrubbery (although it is a much more
                          > practical application from a monetary standpoint). There will be
                          > pictures of both.
                          >
                          > And yes, that little tiny town sports TWO labyrinths! An embarrassment
                          > of riches, for sure...
                          >
                          > SaraAnne
                          >
                        • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
                          In a message dated 12/22/2006 8:55:44 P.M. Central Standard Time, danw@netmastersinc.com writes: This is arguable the most beautiful labyrinth in the United
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 23, 2006
                            In a message dated 12/22/2006 8:55:44 P.M. Central Standard Time, danw@... writes:
                            This is arguable the
                            most beautiful labyrinth in the United States
                            That's nice to hear... and it truly is spectacular. Walking barefoot and feeling the change in temperature in the stone as one moves from shaded to sunlit areas is also pretty wonderful.
                             
                            That IS the guy at Purdue, by the way; now Einar can sick his daughter on him....
                             
                            SaraAnne
                          • Daniel N. Washburn
                            Hi, SaraAnne Looks like there is some interesting stuff going on out your way re sacred gemetry. http://www.newharmonysymposium.com/4436.html Dan
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 23, 2006
                              Hi, SaraAnne

                              Looks like there is some interesting stuff going on out your way re
                              sacred gemetry.

                              http://www.newharmonysymposium.com/4436.html

                              Dan

                              SaraAnneC@... wrote:

                              > In a message dated 12/22/2006 8:55:44 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                              > danw@... writes:
                              >
                              > This is arguable the
                              > most beautiful labyrinth in the United States
                              >
                              > That's nice to hear... and it truly is spectacular. Walking barefoot
                              > and feeling the change in temperature in the stone as one moves from
                              > shaded to sunlit areas is also pretty wonderful.
                              >
                              > That IS the guy at Purdue, by the way; now Einar can sick his daughter
                              > on him....
                              >
                              > SaraAnne
                              >
                            • einar kvaran
                              Thanks, I ll track him down. Einar ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 23, 2006
                                Thanks, I'll track him down. Einar
                                --- SaraAnneC@... wrote:



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                              • einar kvaran
                                Thanks Daniel. You da man! eeeeeeeeek ... Schuette: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 23, 2006
                                  Thanks Daniel. You da man! eeeeeeeeek
                                  --- "Daniel N. Washburn" <danw@...>
                                  wrote:

                                  > I think this is your Purdue Professor: Kent
                                  Schuette:

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                                • einar kvaran
                                  ... Have no fear. Our Prof. is into landscaping. I shall arm my daughter with a mint copy of Charles Greening s The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 23, 2006
                                    >
                                    > That IS the guy at Purdue, by the way; now Einar can
                                    > sick his daughter on
                                    > him.... SaraAnne

                                    Have no fear. Our Prof. is into landscaping. I shall
                                    arm my daughter with a mint copy of Charles Greening's
                                    "The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape Gardening"
                                    and she'll have the fellow eating out of the palm of
                                    her hand.

                                    Thanks, all. eeeeeeeek


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                                  • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
                                    In a message dated 12/23/2006 9:03:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, eeklon@yahoo.com writes: The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape Gardening Shoot,
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 24, 2006
                                      In a message dated 12/23/2006 9:03:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, eeklon@... writes:
                                      "The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape Gardening"
                                      Shoot, Einar.... now I have ANOTHER book to add to my wish list!
                                       
                                      Can you tell me more about this title/author?
                                       
                                      If your daughter somehow finds herself down here during that symposium, or whenever -- let me know and perhaps I can take her to lunch somewhere?
                                       
                                      SaraAnne
                                       
                                       
                                    • SaraAnneC@AOL.com
                                      The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape Gardening I just tried to find that book at Amazon and it is apparently unavailable,even as a used volume.... Just
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 24, 2006
                                        "The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape Gardening"
                                        I just tried to find that book at Amazon and it is apparently unavailable,even as a used volume.... 
                                         
                                        Just as well, I suppose, as I have nearly exhausted my "discretionary income" budget for the next few months....
                                         
                                        SaraAnne
                                         
                                      • einar kvaran
                                        Hi SaraAnne: Sorry about the delay. We are having apretty major winter storm here and have been without electricy for a couple of days. It returned this am.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 30, 2006
                                          Hi SaraAnne:

                                          Sorry about the delay. We are having apretty major
                                          winter storm here and have been without electricy for
                                          a couple of days. It returned this am. Fortunately
                                          we have a wood burning stove, so there was some heat
                                          and Violet's orchids survived [us and the dogs too],
                                          but we have an electric pomp on the well, so the only
                                          water around was at a nearby house that had a backup
                                          hand pump on their well. It was very Biblical [except
                                          for the foot of snow on the ground] with the whole
                                          neighborhood meeting at the well.

                                          On Monday I'm driving into Santa Fe to dig out two
                                          sets of friends who are snowed in with up to 36 inches
                                          drifted against the doors. Should be a fun day. One
                                          of them, Lyall Watson, [who can be found on wikipedia]
                                          is a pretty sacred landscape in himself.

                                          I did discover one copy of the Greening book at
                                          http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=112359136&searchurl=bx%3Doff%26sts%3Dt%26ds%3D30%26bi%3D0%26an%3Dgreening%26y%3D10%26tn%3Dgreening%26x%3D59%26sortby%3D2


                                          I almost always USE ABE.com over Amazon because they
                                          have been at it longer and are not trying to take over
                                          the book industry. Anyway the book is fairly
                                          expensive.

                                          Hmmmmm. Hopefully this is not too off topic - as the
                                          snow continues to fall. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek

                                          --- SaraAnneC@... wrote:

                                          > "The Greening Pictorial System of Landscape
                                          > Gardening"
                                          >
                                          > I just tried to find that book at Amazon and it is
                                          > apparently
                                          > unavailable,even as a used volume....
                                          >
                                          > Just as well, I suppose, as I have nearly exhausted
                                          > my "discretionary
                                          > income" budget for the next few months....
                                          >
                                          > SaraAnne
                                          >
                                          >


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