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  • Khem Caigan
    ... Hi, Mark. I copy you solid. ~ Khem Caigan
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 10, 2006
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      Mark Swaney writes:
      >
      > Hello SL list – is anyone out there?

      Hi, Mark. I copy you solid.


      ~ Khem Caigan
      <Khem@...>
    • Mark Swaney
      Khem and the crew, I was thinking that I couldn t post to the list but I decided to try again - and viola! I am still able to post. Interesting discussions -
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 10, 2006
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        Khem and the crew,

        I was thinking that I couldn't post to the list but I decided to try again -
        and viola! I am still able to post.

        Interesting discussions - I have enjoyed reading them. In fact Mike has
        contributed to my self-knowledge by recommending the book "Doubt". I saw it
        at the bookstore over the holidays and I told my girlfriend about it and she
        liked it and bought the book.

        Later, I was looking through the beginning of the book and came across a
        questionnaire that is designed to measure the degree of your belief - how
        much you are a "believer" and how much you are not. I discovered - to my
        amazement - that I am a maximum doubter. In fact, based on my total of 18
        out of 18 "NO!" answers I am a "special kind of atheist" - a "rational
        materialist". Wooo. Sounds scary.

        I suspect that Mike is also a Rat-Mat. So that makes at least two of us on
        this list. I think that we are the only ones though, at least I haven't read
        any other posts by folks that give me the impression that they are even
        close to being Rat-Mats.

        Sing out if YOU are a rational materialist! We are outnumbered and need all
        the spiritual guidance and moral support that we can get. Rational
        materialists have feelings too you know - we get lonely and think that our
        friends don't understand us. We want to feel that we are as loved and
        accepted as anyone and that our lives have meaning and purpose and that we
        are OK people.

        Hug a rational materialist today!

        I am continuing to study Western history in detail. On the "standard line"
        of history I am up to about the 15th century - just got done with the
        Hundred Years War. Very, very interesting.

        As a hobby, I am making a total time line. That is, starting from the Big
        Bang (it happened right before the Big Cigarette . . .) and proceeding down
        through the First Three Minutes and then on to the formation of stars and
        galaxy's and then our solar system - the beginnings of Earth and on to the
        beginning of life (from totally physical causes of course!) and through the
        evolutionary record of life - single cell organisms, multi-celluar, lower
        forms, up through the reptiles and then the mammals - finally culminating in
        the primates and the great apes followed by the development (by purely
        physical means!) of human life and the beginning of Human History. Then
        things get really interesting because we can go into greater and greater
        detail as the time scales get closer to human scales of understanding. The
        "savage" phase (I've always envied savages somehow, its like I miss
        something by not killing my own food and eating it raw with the blood
        dripping down - oops, sorry) followed by the even more interesting
        "neolithic" phase followed by civilization and so on down through the
        ancient empires of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. At last we
        arrive at the Biblical Era and there are a LOT of interesting things to know
        about that - more later - So now we can cover church history and the end of
        the Roman Empire (if it really is ended, and I have my doubts) then there is
        the Age of the Barbarians - otherwise known as European History.
        Eventually, I get to my own personal "Ancestor Horizon" (my own term - I
        make 'em up if I don't already know a handy phrase for what I'm thinking
        about) I calculate it at about the 15th century. Before that, I have no
        unique ancestors and before then your ancestors (if you are Caucasian) are
        the same as mine. From there on in to the glorious present time we are on
        firmer and firmer ground and I start to include my own family history
        beginning with Lord Thomas Almoreen Beckwith in the late 17th century in
        Northumberland and then on down to, well, ME!

        Odd hobbies, huh?

        Just for grins the other day my girlfriend and I researched the so-called
        "grail family" of Holy Blood Holy Grail (HBHG). I wanted to find out if
        there are known descendants of the Grail Family - IF one ASSUMED that the
        entire HBHG hypothesis is actually correct as presented in the book. That
        led to some interesting results that are too detailed to get into right now,
        but very interesting stuff.

        Before I close for now I wanted to throw out an interesting question to
        everyone to see what folks think about it.

        Know how that with computer programs using known principals of authorship it
        is possible to tell whether or not the same person wrote two separate works?

        Well, ever wonder what would happen if you applied that well-known and
        well-attested method used in respectable research to the New Testament?

        Well, I never did either until I started this research, but it turns out
        (according to one book I read) that the letters of Paul in the NT aren't
        written by the same author - there were TWO of them. We can't tell which
        letters were written by the real Paul (or if either of the two authors are
        actually the Apostle) but assuming that most of the letters were written by
        the Apostle - that leaves Seven that weren't. They are forgeries. And the
        result of the forgeries is not unimportant to church history.

        What say you to that?

        Mark
      • A. Hawk
        First of all, the differences in languages in the Pauline scriptures is more logically attributed to his known habit of accessing an amanuensis to complete and
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 12, 2006
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          First of all, the differences in languages in the Pauline scriptures is
          more logically attributed to his known habit of accessing an amanuensis
          to complete and to transmit his rough drafts. Certain letters even have
          references to his attaching an appendix in his own hand to confirm the
          letter ....
          I'm not familiar with the arguments in the book to which you all refer,
          but is also know that St. Paul also underwent at least two periods when
          he changed his basic message content and format to fit his expanded
          understanding or the developing situation. So which seven are
          supposedly forgeries?
          BTW, if the list includes "Hebrews" it should be noted that no scholar
          of the history of the N.T. ever considered Hebrews to be St. Paul's
          actual work. Its inclusion in the canon is one of the more peculiar
          elements.

          Secondarily, last year a fairly extensive critique of that parallels to
          Jesus list appeared somewhere ... I'll need to dig around to find
          somebody who has it.
          But, frankly, given that these sort of events are the kinds of events
          which folks who encounter an incarnation expect to happen, it does not
          seem all that improbable that they would necessarily be resonances with
          the primal event in the incarnation of ultimate Deity ... such as
          Christians claim Jesus to to be! LOL

          Be Blest,
          Ambrose Hawk
          --
          IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .
        • Mark Swaney
          Ambrose, I will have to get the book back from the library - but I know where it is in the stacks and I can check. The book made reference to specific studies
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 13, 2006
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            Ambrose,

            I will have to get the book back from the library - but I know where it is
            in the stacks and I can check. The book made reference to specific studies
            that I want to get anyway.

            The book that refers to the differences between the two sets of letters was
            examining the nature of Paul's ideas with regard to Gnosticism. The theory
            put forward is that in spite of several very Gnostic ideas that Paul is
            credited with in his letters, in other places Paul condemns the Gnostics.
            The book claimed that 7 of the letters of Paul were written much later by
            another author and attributed to Paul so that the later orthodoxy of the
            Fourth century Roman church would not be disturbed by pro-gnostic statements
            made by Paul in the first century.

            In other books as well as this one I have come across the problem of
            determining the actual attitude of Paul toward the Gnostics.

            I'm interested in the Gnostics because they were purged from the church in
            the fourth century, but before that were very active and had a large
            following. They may have had access to traditions about the mystical
            writings in the NT - they certainly claimed that they did.

            Generally, I'm interested in all of the early Christians - that is, before
            the time of Constantine. Especially the ones that didn't make the cut. We
            know what the Roman Catholics thought - they survived to tell us - but their
            competition did not.

            If there is any solution to the mystery of NT Gematria it is likely not to
            be found in the orthodox above-ground teachings of the Romans, but rather
            will be rooted in the beliefs of the first century proto-Christians such as
            the Ebionites and the Gnostics.

            Mark


            -----Original Message-----
            From: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of A. Hawk
            Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:01 PM
            To: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [sl] Re: Life, History, Belief, Ancestors and the Bible

            First of all, the differences in languages in the Pauline scriptures is
            more logically attributed to his known habit of accessing an amanuensis
            to complete and to transmit his rough drafts. Certain letters even have
            references to his attaching an appendix in his own hand to confirm the
            letter ....
            I'm not familiar with the arguments in the book to which you all refer,
            but is also know that St. Paul also underwent at least two periods when
            he changed his basic message content and format to fit his expanded
            understanding or the developing situation. So which seven are
            supposedly forgeries?
            BTW, if the list includes "Hebrews" it should be noted that no scholar
            of the history of the N.T. ever considered Hebrews to be St. Paul's
            actual work. Its inclusion in the canon is one of the more peculiar
            elements.

            Secondarily, last year a fairly extensive critique of that parallels to
            Jesus list appeared somewhere ... I'll need to dig around to find
            somebody who has it.
            But, frankly, given that these sort of events are the kinds of events
            which folks who encounter an incarnation expect to happen, it does not
            seem all that improbable that they would necessarily be resonances with
            the primal event in the incarnation of ultimate Deity ... such as
            Christians claim Jesus to to be! LOL

            Be Blest,
            Ambrose Hawk
            --
            IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .





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          • A. Hawk
            Okay, Mark, a few comments. First of all, the Pauline corpus was complete long before 200 AD ... pretty much as we have it now ... and before some of the texts
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 14, 2006
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              Okay, Mark, a few comments.
              First of all, the Pauline corpus was complete long before 200 AD ...
              pretty much as we have it now ... and before some of the texts from the
              Nag Hammadi collection were written. The idea that they were compiled
              any later cannot be supported in the long run. It's been decades since
              I was studying these things professionally, but fairly certain that most
              of the corpus can be identified in quotes etc. from other documents of
              the period .... let alone the various lists as the canonicity of texts
              as "Scripture" (a very special designation ... a lot of stuff was
              accepted as good and valid in those days, but now as "Scripture") was
              debated.
              Secondarily, the writings of St. Paul clearly refer to "gnosis falsely
              so called" which would indicate to me that St. Paul was open to some
              sort of ideas of gnosis, but not the strain now associated with
              classical gnosticism. I've a file which discusses the difference
              between classic gnosticism and "orthodox" Christian Gnosticism which
              I'll post separately (it's rather long).
              Third, I tend to doubt that the various Gnostic cults ever approached
              the sheer numbers involved in the Apostolic traditions. By its very
              nature, Gnosticism is elitist and exclusive whereas the orthodox cults
              were extremely popular in the more numerous "women and slaves" portion
              of the populace.
              Fourth, the classical Gnostics subscribed to several competing and
              convoluted cosmologies which are also clearly non-Judaic in origin, thus
              necessarily tend to eliminate themselves from the concept of authentic
              teaching of even the Galilean school of Judaism ...
              Regards,
              Ambrose

              --
              IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .
            • danw888
              ... AD ... ... from the ... compiled ... since ... that most ... documents of ... texts ... was ... falsely ... some ... which ... approached ... very ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 15, 2006
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                --- In sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com, "A. Hawk" <ahawk@c...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Okay, Mark, a few comments.
                > First of all, the Pauline corpus was complete long before 200
                AD ...
                > pretty much as we have it now ... and before some of the texts
                from the
                > Nag Hammadi collection were written. The idea that they were
                compiled
                > any later cannot be supported in the long run. It's been decades
                since
                > I was studying these things professionally, but fairly certain
                that most
                > of the corpus can be identified in quotes etc. from other
                documents of
                > the period .... let alone the various lists as the canonicity of
                texts
                > as "Scripture" (a very special designation ... a lot of stuff was
                > accepted as good and valid in those days, but now as "Scripture")
                was
                > debated.
                > Secondarily, the writings of St. Paul clearly refer to "gnosis
                falsely
                > so called" which would indicate to me that St. Paul was open to
                some
                > sort of ideas of gnosis, but not the strain now associated with
                > classical gnosticism. I've a file which discusses the difference
                > between classic gnosticism and "orthodox" Christian Gnosticism
                which
                > I'll post separately (it's rather long).
                > Third, I tend to doubt that the various Gnostic cults ever
                approached
                > the sheer numbers involved in the Apostolic traditions. By its
                very
                > nature, Gnosticism is elitist and exclusive whereas the orthodox
                cults
                > were extremely popular in the more numerous "women and slaves"
                portion
                > of the populace.
                > Fourth, the classical Gnostics subscribed to several competing and
                > convoluted cosmologies which are also clearly non-Judaic in
                origin, thus
                > necessarily tend to eliminate themselves from the concept of
                authentic
                > teaching of even the Galilean school of Judaism ...
                > Regards,
                > Ambrose
                >
                > --
                > IN HOC MODO MILLIS FRANGITVR .
                >

                Pre-christian gnosticism is a foggy area, denied by many scholars.
                Scholem has a very interesting book on Jewish gnositicism and
                merkabah mysticism, which basically says that there was an esoteric
                judaism that got used by early christianity and shows up most
                strongly in christian gnosticism. Gnosticism is a wastebasket
                category. You are really not talking about anything real until you
                strart specifying the details of what the different sects believed.
                The gnosis falsely so called ref by Paul may have nothing to do with
                whatever the word gnosticism calls up in your mind.

                See my paper on the Hidden Wisdom in early christianity.

                Dan
              • Chris
                Hi Gene, ... Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. ... True enough. ... I think you make a good point. But the argument runs the risk of the whole initiate
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 18, 2006
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                  Hi Gene,


                  >
                  > You can add Simon Magus who was a contemprary of Jesus and more of
                  > a 'miracle worker' than was Jesus to your list. Simon Magus has been
                  > refered to by some as the "Second Messiah."

                  Interesting. Thanks for the heads up.
                  >
                  > It is disturbing to believers when they are made aware of the many
                  > other "Jesus Look-Alikes". The typical reaction is probably a form
                  > of denial, like that of your friend. Denial is one of our most used
                  > and effective 'defense' mechanisms.

                  True enough.
                  >
                  > I think it is possible to get an understanding of this if you can
                  > accept the notion of there being an 'esoteric' and an 'exoteric'
                  > interpretation of religious scripture. If we stick to the assertion
                  > that religious scripture is literally true then you have hit
                  > an 'immovable object', something has to give - either you deny the
                  > facts of the many "Jesus Look Alikes" and go around the object and on
                  > your way or you accept the facts and become an unbeliever. (
                  > Unbeliever in the historical uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the one
                  > and only appearance of Christ, which is a Christian basic. )
                  >
                  > On the other hand, from an esoteric point of view, there is
                  > an 'archetypal realm/dimension', which is the Source of manifested
                  > souls, angelic forms, gods, in the physical plane. According to
                  > esoteric teaching there is indeed One Christ, spiritually, but He has
                  > incarnated many times and places. In India there are the Avatars.
                  > But, even from a purely 'exoteric' interpretation, there was only one
                  > historical Jesus Christ. This is true. However, it is that it was
                  > one Jesus, fulfilling the 'office' of Christ.

                  I think you make a good point. But the argument runs the risk of the whole
                  "initiate" B.S. I just can't stand. Just another way of propping up one's
                  ego. Better to go the Buddhist route, in my opinion, and just treat it as so
                  many varieties of (one's) self.

                  >
                  > Regarding the number 153. I suppose you have read Mitchell's
                  > interpretation in "City of Revelation"?
                  >
                  > He says the "key is the number 1224, which is the value by gematria
                  > of both (the Greek ) 'net', and the (Greek ) 'fishes'. 1224 is equal
                  > to 8 times 153, and 153 is the sum of the number 1 - 17..."
                  >
                  > Best Regards, Gene J

                  Okay, thanks. I don't put much stock in Mitchell, personally, but noted.
                  Cheers.

                  -Chris
                • Chris
                  Ambrose, ... I hardly think people expect these sorts of events to happen: when would Dec 25 be expected over any other time of year? Spring makes more sense
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 18, 2006
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                    Ambrose,

                    >
                    > Secondarily, last year a fairly extensive critique of that parallels to
                    > Jesus list appeared somewhere ... I'll need to dig around to find
                    > somebody who has it.
                    > But, frankly, given that these sort of events are the kinds of events
                    > which folks who encounter an incarnation expect to happen, it does not
                    > seem all that improbable that they would necessarily be resonances with
                    > the primal event in the incarnation of ultimate Deity ... such as
                    > Christians claim Jesus to to be! LOL

                    I hardly think people expect "these sorts of events" to happen: when would
                    Dec 25 be expected over any other time of year? Spring makes more sense to
                    me; or why male? A goddess makes sense when I think of the earth; or why
                    virgin? This automatically proves non-earthly origin?

                    I grant you that "rose from the dead" is a compelling expectation but the
                    others less so.

                    -Chris
                  • Chris
                    Hi Dan, ... Possibly. But this merely begs the question, in my view. Dante all over again. ... Not sure where this is directed: myself or Gene? It was I that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 18, 2006
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                      Hi Dan,


                      > I think the traditional church reply to the jesus look alikes was
                      > that the demons enacted these false appearances before christ to
                      > cast doubt on the real appearance of christ.

                      Possibly. But this merely begs the question, in my view. Dante all over
                      again.
                      >
                      > So what's with the jesus look alikes are we talking diffusion,
                      > archetype, similarity of the one spiritual paths, etc.? You seem to
                      > be voting for a multiple projection of one truth from the realm of
                      > the gods and angels.

                      Not sure where this is directed: myself or Gene? It was I that brought forth
                      the examples. But if you mean the esoteric argument...it would be along the
                      lines of Swedenborg's "correspondences". Jung's archetypes are not that far
                      off from this line of thought, when you think about: repeating patterns are
                      common enough in nature, so why not in though, dream, and yes myth.

                      >
                      > I did some research on 153 years ago and, if I remember correctly,
                      > it is the number of the mother of Jesus, Mary. Since 153 is
                      > associated with the vesica and the vesica is the shape of the female
                      > vulva -- remember that christ appears in the vesica in the medieval
                      > cathedrals which were dedicated to notre dame, our mother, Mary --
                      > the symbolism as I read it is that 153, the fish, means the mother
                      > of Jesus, in the sense that jesus is the entrance of the divine into
                      > physical reality. Hence Mary is the mother of all the faithful into
                      > whom is born the spirit of the divine.

                      Beautiful, Dan. Thanks for mentioning this.

                      -Chris
                    • Chris
                      Hi Gene, ... The source I gave was Patrick Campbell. The list comes from http://www.relgioustolerance.org. Why do you think it comes from Graves? Never heard
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 18, 2006
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                        Hi Gene,

                        >
                        > Chris's information regarding historical Jesus Look-A-Likes perhaps
                        > comes either directly or indirectly from Graves's book.

                        The source I gave was Patrick Campbell. The list comes from
                        http://www.relgioustolerance.org Why do you think it comes from Graves?

                        Never heard of Graves or Carrier. But I'm willing to wager we poster-people
                        for esochris here at SL would lay money on less than 16 and more than 2.

                        If I had the inclination I could back up the list I gave. The two that are
                        suspect are:

                        I suspect Campbell has stretched the known facts with these three: Hercules,
                        Hermes, Prometheus,.

                        Very certainly Jesus *was* Bacchus and Osiris (in the "correspondence" sense
                        of being); I do not understand why Carrier is so dismissive of this myth.

                        Mithras and Horus are likely given the Mithraism threat to early
                        Christianity and the direct importation of icons from Egyptian religion.

                        As for Perseus, one should never underestimate the power of his myth.
                        Bottomless.

                        -Chris

                        >Carrier says
                        > he has been reseaching this subject for 10 years and says he finds no
                        > substantial evidence to support Graves' claims of sixteen crucified,
                        > resurrected saviors that can be comapred to Jesus Christ. Carrier
                        > says that there are actually only two 'gods' that can be accurately
                        > compared to Jesus Christ - Zalmoxis ( Thracian god also known as
                        > Salmoxis or Gebele'izis ) and Inanna.
                        >
                        > Carrier says that most the other so-called "crucified/resurrected"
                        > saviors are actually agricultural dieties that dramatize the seasonal
                        > birth and death theme - dying, going into the Underworld and
                        > returning to renew the earth, etc. These gods were Demeter,
                        > Dionysis, Persephone, Castor and Pollox, Isis and Osiris and Cybele
                        > and Attis.
                        >
                        > Gene J
                        >
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