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Re: [sl] Consciousness outside the body

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  • mikebispham@aol.com
    Hi Dan Looked at the reviews, which show the usual frightening ignorance of what science is, and how it works. I ve looked at reviews of his other books, and
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 24, 2005
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      Hi Dan
       
      Looked at the reviews, which show the usual frightening ignorance of what science is, and how it works.  I've looked at reviews of his other books, and I've read James Randy's criticisms.
       
      I'm with Randy. 
       
      In a message dated 11/24/05 2:03:21 AM GMT Standard Time, danw@... writes:
      Here is a book on afterlife research going on at the University of Arizona

      The Afterlife Experiments : Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life
      After Death (Hardcover)
      by Gary E. R. Schwartz
      <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Gary%20E.%20R.%20Schwartz&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>,
      William L. Simon
      <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=William%20L.%20Simon&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>,
      Deepak Chopra
      <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Deepak%20Chopra&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>
      (Foreword)
      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074343658X/002-1774338-1896815?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

      Amazon Review:

      The book reports on scientific findings about consciousness after death
      from the University of Arizona Laboratory of Gary Schwartz, former Yale
      and Harvard professor. He works with mediums, who are "superstars of
      mediumship" including Jonathan Edwards.

      The findings are based on data the mediums report based on their contact
      with people on "the other side" who are associated with "sitters" who
      are volunteers for these experiments.

      For example, if a person says to a sitter that she had a grandmother,
      that's not impressive. If the medium says the grandmother loved the
      sitter very much, that's not too impressive either (My grandmothers died
      before I was born so it would be a wrong answer in my case) But if the
      sitter said that the grandmother is talking about daisies and her
      wedding-- well, that stands out. And if the medium reports that the
      daisies were in the sitters hair.. That's pretty amazing. Schwartz's
      research takes hundreds of items like this and then has the trained
      sitters rate them for accuracy. The mediums never meet, never see or
      hear the sitters, except when the medium hears the sitter in the next
      room sob, if the medium really nails a connection.

      This work has evolved as a logical step in Dr. Schwartz's research into
      human energy systems and energy medicine, and from ideas that he first
      developed and reported with Lynda Russek in the book Living Energy
      Universe.

      This research is very controversial, and while exciting and comforting
      to some, it is upsetting to some of the science skeptics, like James
      Randi, who seems to have made Dr. Schwartz his number one target
      recently. I've read his attacks though, and the attacks are personal and
      subjective, and if Randi submitted his own statements about Schwartz to
      the same requirements he expects of others, well, we wouldn't be hearing
      from Randi. I expect that I'll get more than the usual number of
      negative feedbacks on this from people who are skeptics, regardless of
      what the content of the review is.

      The findings in this book are fantastic and call for further research
      and replication. And Schwartz is bravely continuing to do just that.
      Hopefully, as his research reaches broader audiences, other scientists
      will be encouraged to come out of the closet (there are plenty who
      believe, based on existing data) and start publishing and researching
      more on these and related parapsychology topics.

      Another Review

      In offering evidence that consciousness survives bodily death, the
      author goes well beyond the "preponderance of evidence" standard
      required to prove civil law suits and, in this reviewer's opinion,
      easily exceeds the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard required for
      criminal cases.

      Certainly, Dr. Schwartz has the credentials of a true scientist. He
      received his doctorate from Harvard and taught at Yale before moving on
      to the University of Arizona, where he is professor of psychology,
      medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery as well as the director of
      its Human Energy Systems Laboratory. But Schwartz is not your mainstream
      scientist. Even though very much a skeptic himself, he had the courage
      to take on a research project in a scientifically taboo area after being
      introduced to a medium who immediately began communicating very
      evidential material from his mother.

      Schwartz arranged for five mediums, including the well-known John Edward
      and George Anderson, to undergo testing at his laboratory. All possible
      scientific controls and precautions were taken. The conclusion by
      Schwartz and Dr. Linda Russek, who collaborated with him in the
      research, was that the mediums were indeed gifted and able to
      communicate with spirit entities.

      In in the initial stages of the research, Schwartz found it difficult to
      believe what he was seeing and hearing. "My degree of doubt in the
      presence of all data was frankly irrational," he writes. "I was
      experiencing skeptimania." But as the research continued, Schwartz was
      forced to face the truth. "I can no longer ignore the data and dismiss
      the words," he continues. "They are as real as the sun, the trees, and
      our television sets, which seem to pull pictures out of the air."

      While the appendix to the book reads like a scientific journal, the book
      itself is well written in layman's language. To the "believer" in
      survival of consciousness, this book should signifantly bolster his or
      her faith. To the "true" skeptic, the book will open some eyes and the
      light might be allowed to penetrate an open mind. To the pseudo-skeptic,
      however, it will, unfortunately, do nothing more than raise eyebrows.
      These pseudo skeptics are the intellectually arrogant with closed minds
      who don't really examine the data. If Schwartz's research can't convince
      them, nothing can.

       
    • mikebispham@aol.com
      (Apologies All, last post sent prematurely. I wondered where it had gone, then up it popped in my inbox : ) Hi Dan I ve read the reviews at Amazon, which
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 24, 2005
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        (Apologies All, last post sent prematurely. I wondered where it had gone, then up it popped in my inbox : )
         
        Hi Dan
         
        I've read the reviews at Amazon, which display the usual frightening ignorance of what science is:
         
        "If Science is not your strong point do not worry, this book offers important explanations on the possibility of our continuing life form that anyone can understand. This is a must read for anyone looking to answer our biggest question of all time, is there an afterlife?"
         
        Another reports:
         
        "The Author claims to be a scientist (and anyone with a science degree from a university can claim), but I am afraid his personal quest has gotten in the way. The author makes sweeping conclusions from data that can be observed in the natural world, and then because of a faulty logic and false deduction, introduces us to the absolute reality of mediums, angels, guides, etc, without a real proof. It has some interesting ideas if you know where to look."
        There are several rather touching pieces from people who are open in their desire believe him but can't manage to.  And I've read James Randi's page (http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html ) which is, I think, spot on.
         
        Of course book reviews are no basis on which to judge of anything.  If I had a copy of the book here I could offer direct thoughts, but I won't be buying one because I think Randi's points - on methodology particularly - are very well made.  For example:
         
        "Since Schwartz has admitted that he's never done a double-blind experiment, insisting that when he does get around to that mode he will improve it to "triple-blind" — whatever that means! — I will await his implementation of proper controls before making further comment; there is no need to explain something that has not yet been shown to exist. What he has done so far appears to be a series of games and amateur probes, quite without any scientific value — though the mediums are quick to quote him and claim academic validation from the University of Arizona. Agreed, Schwartz has employed masses of technical attachments, lots of bells and whistles, and has applied statistics to the half-data obtained, but that is much like measuring chimneys with a laser beam to determine whether a fat man in a red suit can get down them, and to thereby explore the reality of Santa Claus. "
         
        This doesn't give me any confidence, phd or no, that Schwartz truly knows anything at all about how to examine reality with measured impartially - and that is the critical measure.
         
        Perhaps tellingly Randi has repeatedly invited Schwartz to try for his organisation's million dollar prize, to which Schwartz apparently responds:
         
        Three areas of our research would easily win the prize.... But we do not apply for prizes ...

        I will respond to this by stating the only four reasons that I can imagine to explain this attitude:

        1. Schwartz is already wealthy and doesn't need the million dollars.

        2. The University of Arizona will not accept gifts of money from Schwartz.

        3. Schwartz has no charity in mind such as hungry children, AIDS research, or the homeless.

        I can't see this going anywhere, I think its a mixture of out and out fakery and ignorance of several distinct kinds.   I imagine Schwartz's books are making him a tidy little packet without very much effort at all, and that, combined with his desire for his alternative realities to be true, and all the love and kisses he gets from the medium/spiritualist/psi folks, forms the basis of what drives him.
         
        But you'll have to make up your own minds.  I would recommend you do read Randy's page carefully, and if you are not completely confident that you know the basics of scientific methodology, look them up and examine them hard, in order that you can judge for yourself at least the outlines of the claims and counter-claims.  That might help you evaluate, for instance, the significance of Schwartz's refusal to share his data - which puts him utterly outside any right to claim a scientific methodology.
         
        The last part of your reviewer's piece says it all for me, but if you can't see the flaws in it, I can't do any more than ask you read up as mentioned above on the basics of scientific methodology
         
        Cheers,
         
        Mike
         
         
        In a message dated 11/24/05 2:03:21 AM GMT Standard Time, danw@... writes:
        Here is a book on afterlife research going on at the University of Arizona

        The Afterlife Experiments : Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life
        After Death (Hardcover)
        by Gary E. R. Schwartz
        <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Gary%20E.%20R.%20Schwartz&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>,
        William L. Simon
        <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=William%20L.%20Simon&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>,
        Deepak Chopra
        <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Deepak%20Chopra&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>
        (Foreword)
        http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074343658X/002-1774338-1896815?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

        Amazon Review:

        The book reports on scientific findings about consciousness after death
        from the University of Arizona Laboratory of Gary Schwartz, former Yale
        and Harvard professor. He works with mediums, who are "superstars of
        mediumship" including Jonathan Edwards.

        The findings are based on data the mediums report based on their contact
        with people on "the other side" who are associated with "sitters" who
        are volunteers for these experiments.

        For example, if a person says to a sitter that she had a grandmother,
        that's not impressive. If the medium says the grandmother loved the
        sitter very much, that's not too impressive either (My grandmothers died
        before I was born so it would be a wrong answer in my case) But if the
        sitter said that the grandmother is talking about daisies and her
        wedding-- well, that stands out. And if the medium reports that the
        daisies were in the sitters hair.. That's pretty amazing. Schwartz's
        research takes hundreds of items like this and then has the trained
        sitters rate them for accuracy. The mediums never meet, never see or
        hear the sitters, except when the medium hears the sitter in the next
        room sob, if the medium really nails a connection.

        This work has evolved as a logical step in Dr. Schwartz's research into
        human energy systems and energy medicine, and from ideas that he first
        developed and reported with Lynda Russek in the book Living Energy
        Universe.

        This research is very controversial, and while exciting and comforting
        to some, it is upsetting to some of the science skeptics, like James
        Randi, who seems to have made Dr. Schwartz his number one target
        recently. I've read his attacks though, and the attacks are personal and
        subjective, and if Randi submitted his own statements about Schwartz to
        the same requirements he expects of others, well, we wouldn't be hearing
        from Randi. I expect that I'll get more than the usual number of
        negative feedbacks on this from people who are skeptics, regardless of
        what the content of the review is.

        The findings in this book are fantastic and call for further research
        and replication. And Schwartz is bravely continuing to do just that.
        Hopefully, as his research reaches broader audiences, other scientists
        will be encouraged to come out of the closet (there are plenty who
        believe, based on existing data) and start publishing and researching
        more on these and related parapsychology topics.

        Another Review

        In offering evidence that consciousness survives bodily death, the
        author goes well beyond the "preponderance of evidence" standard
        required to prove civil law suits and, in this reviewer's opinion,
        easily exceeds the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard required for
        criminal cases.

        Certainly, Dr. Schwartz has the credentials of a true scientist. He
        received his doctorate from Harvard and taught at Yale before moving on
        to the University of Arizona, where he is professor of psychology,
        medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery as well as the director of
        its Human Energy Systems Laboratory. But Schwartz is not your mainstream
        scientist. Even though very much a skeptic himself, he had the courage
        to take on a research project in a scientifically taboo area after being
        introduced to a medium who immediately began communicating very
        evidential material from his mother.

        Schwartz arranged for five mediums, including the well-known John Edward
        and George Anderson, to undergo testing at his laboratory. All possible
        scientific controls and precautions were taken. The conclusion by
        Schwartz and Dr. Linda Russek, who collaborated with him in the
        research, was that the mediums were indeed gifted and able to
        communicate with spirit entities.

        In in the initial stages of the research, Schwartz found it difficult to
        believe what he was seeing and hearing. "My degree of doubt in the
        presence of all data was frankly irrational," he writes. "I was
        experiencing skeptimania." But as the research continued, Schwartz was
        forced to face the truth. "I can no longer ignore the data and dismiss
        the words," he continues. "They are as real as the sun, the trees, and
        our television sets, which seem to pull pictures out of the air."

        While the appendix to the book reads like a scientific journal, the book
        itself is well written in layman's language. To the "believer" in
        survival of consciousness, this book should signifantly bolster his or
        her faith. To the "true" skeptic, the book will open some eyes and the
        light might be allowed to penetrate an open mind. To the pseudo-skeptic,
        however, it will, unfortunately, do nothing more than raise eyebrows.
        These pseudo skeptics are the intellectually arrogant with closed minds
        who don't really examine the data. If Schwartz's research can't convince
        them, nothing can.
         
      • Daniel N. Washburn
        Hi, Mike Some comments on Randi s eval of Gary Schwartz. (http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html ) ... Recently read another book called Afterlife Encounters
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 1, 2005
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          Hi, Mike

          Some comments on Randi's eval of Gary Schwartz.
          (http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html )

          mikebispham@... wrote:

          > (Apologies All, last post sent prematurely. I wondered where it had
          > gone, then up it popped in my inbox : )
          >
          > Hi Dan
          >
          > I've read the reviews at Amazon, which display the usual frightening
          > ignorance of what science is:
          >
          > "If Science is not your strong point do not worry, this book offers
          > important explanations on the possibility of our continuing life form
          > that anyone can understand. This is a must read for anyone looking to
          > answer our biggest question of all time, is there an afterlife?"
          >
          > Another reports:
          >
          > "The Author claims to be a scientist (and anyone with a science degree
          > from a university can claim), but I am afraid his personal quest has
          > gotten in the way. The author makes sweeping conclusions from data
          > that can be observed in the natural world, and then because of a
          > faulty logic and false deduction, introduces us to the absolute
          > reality of mediums, angels, guides, etc, without a real proof. It has
          > some interesting ideas if you know where to look."
          > There are several rather touching pieces from people who are open in
          > their desire believe him but can't manage to. And I've read James
          > Randi's page (http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html ) which is, I
          > think, spot on.
          >
          > Of course book reviews are no basis on which to judge of anything. If
          > I had a copy of the book here I could offer direct thoughts, but I
          > won't be buying one because I think Randi's points - on methodology
          > particularly - are very well made. For example:
          >
          > "Since Schwartz has admitted that he's never done a double-blind
          > experiment, insisting that when he does get around to that mode he
          > will improve it to "triple-blind" — whatever that means! — I will
          > await his implementation of proper controls before making further
          > comment; there is no need to explain something that has not yet been
          > shown to exist. What he has done so far appears to be a series of
          > games and amateur probes, quite without any scientific value — though
          > the mediums are quick to quote him and claim academic validation from
          > the University of Arizona. Agreed, Schwartz has employed masses of
          > technical attachments, lots of bells and whistles, and has applied
          > statistics to the half-data obtained, but that is much like measuring
          > chimneys with a laser beam to determine whether a fat man in a red
          > suit can get down them, and to thereby explore the reality of Santa
          > Claus. "
          >

          Recently read another book called Afterlife Encounters by a woman who
          was a participant in one of Gary Schwartz's experiments. She refers to
          it as a double blind study and from her description it looked like a
          double blind study to me. I've been trying to buy the book Afterlife
          Experiments to take a look for myself but haven't been able to get hold
          of it yet.

          Randi has some funny lines and I gotta say I appreciate the tradition he
          stands in. Houdini spent a lot of time exposing phony mediums and the
          magician Dunninger did the same in the 1940s.

          > This doesn't give me any confidence, phd or no, that Schwartz truly
          > knows anything at all about how to examine reality with
          > measured impartially - and that is the critical measure.
          >
          > Perhaps tellingly Randi has repeatedly invited Schwartz to try for his
          > organisation's million dollar prize, to which Schwartz
          > apparently responds:
          >
          > Three areas of our research would easily win the prize.... But we do
          > not apply for prizes ...
          >
          > I will respond to this by stating the only four reasons that I can
          > imagine to explain this attitude:
          >
          > 1. Schwartz is already wealthy and doesn't need the million dollars.
          >
          > 2. The University of Arizona will not accept gifts of money from
          > Schwartz.
          >
          > 3. Schwartz has no charity in mind such as hungry children, AIDS
          > research, or the homeless.
          >
          Gimme a break, Randi. The reason he won't participate is that he
          doesn't believe in your objectivity and fears that any experiment that
          fails to meet statisitical significance, even tho there is a body of
          experiments that do, will be used to smear the whole effort. When you
          use headlines like "May the Schwartz be with you, the Tooth Fairy's
          existence proven by Science" you have to expect some scepticism about
          your objectivity.

          Gary Schwartz has invited Randi to personally participate in the
          research if he will publish nothing about the results. In other words
          if he will shut up, swallow his motivation to preach , and open himself
          to the possibilities. But Nooo, Randi uses this invitation to smear
          Gary Schwartz's motives - he wants to shut Randi up! Horrible.

          Dan

          > I can't see this going anywhere, I think its a mixture of out and out
          > fakery and ignorance of several distinct kinds. I imagine Schwartz's
          > books are making him a tidy little packet without very much effort at
          > all, and that, combined with his desire for his alternative realities
          > to be true, and all the love and kisses he gets from
          > the medium/spiritualist/psi folks, forms the basis of what drives him.
          >
          > But you'll have to make up your own minds. I would recommend you
          > do read Randy's page carefully, and if you are not completely
          > confident that you know the basics of scientific methodology, look
          > them up and examine them hard, in order that you can judge for
          > yourself at least the outlines of the claims and counter-claims. That
          > might help you evaluate, for instance, the significance of Schwartz's
          > refusal to share his data - which puts him utterly outside any right
          > to claim a scientific methodology.
          >
          > The last part of your reviewer's piece says it all for me, but if you
          > can't see the flaws in it, I can't do any more than ask you read up as
          > mentioned above on the basics of scientific methodology
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Mike
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 11/24/05 2:03:21 AM GMT Standard Time,
          > danw@... writes:
          >
          > Here is a book on afterlife research going on at the University of
          > Arizona
          >
          > The Afterlife Experiments : Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life
          > After Death (Hardcover)
          > by Gary E. R. Schwartz
          > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Gary%20E.%20R.%20Schwartz&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>,
          >
          > William L. Simon
          > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=William%20L.%20Simon&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>,
          >
          > Deepak Chopra
          > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Deepak%20Chopra&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-1774338-1896815>
          >
          > (Foreword)
          > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074343658X/002-1774338-1896815?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance
          >
          > Amazon Review:
          >
          > The book reports on scientific findings about consciousness after
          > death
          > from the University of Arizona Laboratory of Gary Schwartz, former
          > Yale
          > and Harvard professor. He works with mediums, who are "superstars of
          > mediumship" including Jonathan Edwards.
          >
          > The findings are based on data the mediums report based on their
          > contact
          > with people on "the other side" who are associated with "sitters" who
          > are volunteers for these experiments.
          >
          > For example, if a person says to a sitter that she had a grandmother,
          > that's not impressive. If the medium says the grandmother loved the
          > sitter very much, that's not too impressive either (My
          > grandmothers died
          > before I was born so it would be a wrong answer in my case) But if
          > the
          > sitter said that the grandmother is talking about daisies and her
          > wedding-- well, that stands out. And if the medium reports that the
          > daisies were in the sitters hair.. That's pretty amazing. Schwartz's
          > research takes hundreds of items like this and then has the trained
          > sitters rate them for accuracy. The mediums never meet, never see or
          > hear the sitters, except when the medium hears the sitter in the next
          > room sob, if the medium really nails a connection.
          >
          > This work has evolved as a logical step in Dr. Schwartz's research
          > into
          > human energy systems and energy medicine, and from ideas that he
          > first
          > developed and reported with Lynda Russek in the book Living Energy
          > Universe.
          >
          > This research is very controversial, and while exciting and
          > comforting
          > to some, it is upsetting to some of the science skeptics, like James
          > Randi, who seems to have made Dr. Schwartz his number one target
          > recently. I've read his attacks though, and the attacks are
          > personal and
          > subjective, and if Randi submitted his own statements about
          > Schwartz to
          > the same requirements he expects of others, well, we wouldn't be
          > hearing
          > from Randi. I expect that I'll get more than the usual number of
          > negative feedbacks on this from people who are skeptics,
          > regardless of
          > what the content of the review is.
          >
          > The findings in this book are fantastic and call for further research
          > and replication. And Schwartz is bravely continuing to do just that.
          > Hopefully, as his research reaches broader audiences, other
          > scientists
          > will be encouraged to come out of the closet (there are plenty who
          > believe, based on existing data) and start publishing and researching
          > more on these and related parapsychology topics.
          >
          > Another Review
          >
          > In offering evidence that consciousness survives bodily death, the
          > author goes well beyond the "preponderance of evidence" standard
          > required to prove civil law suits and, in this reviewer's opinion,
          > easily exceeds the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard required for
          > criminal cases.
          >
          > Certainly, Dr. Schwartz has the credentials of a true scientist. He
          > received his doctorate from Harvard and taught at Yale before
          > moving on
          > to the University of Arizona, where he is professor of psychology,
          > medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery as well as the
          > director of
          > its Human Energy Systems Laboratory. But Schwartz is not your
          > mainstream
          > scientist. Even though very much a skeptic himself, he had the
          > courage
          > to take on a research project in a scientifically taboo area after
          > being
          > introduced to a medium who immediately began communicating very
          > evidential material from his mother.
          >
          > Schwartz arranged for five mediums, including the well-known John
          > Edward
          > and George Anderson, to undergo testing at his laboratory. All
          > possible
          > scientific controls and precautions were taken. The conclusion by
          > Schwartz and Dr. Linda Russek, who collaborated with him in the
          > research, was that the mediums were indeed gifted and able to
          > communicate with spirit entities.
          >
          > In in the initial stages of the research, Schwartz found it
          > difficult to
          > believe what he was seeing and hearing. "My degree of doubt in the
          > presence of all data was frankly irrational," he writes. "I was
          > experiencing skeptimania." But as the research continued, Schwartz
          > was
          > forced to face the truth. "I can no longer ignore the data and
          > dismiss
          > the words," he continues. "They are as real as the sun, the trees,
          > and
          > our television sets, which seem to pull pictures out of the air."
          >
          > While the appendix to the book reads like a scientific journal,
          > the book
          > itself is well written in layman's language. To the "believer" in
          > survival of consciousness, this book should signifantly bolster
          > his or
          > her faith. To the "true" skeptic, the book will open some eyes and
          > the
          > light might be allowed to penetrate an open mind. To the
          > pseudo-skeptic,
          > however, it will, unfortunately, do nothing more than raise eyebrows.
          > These pseudo skeptics are the intellectually arrogant with closed
          > minds
          > who don't really examine the data. If Schwartz's research can't
          > convince
          > them, nothing can.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
          > http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
          >
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