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RE: [sl] 666, 616

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  • Mark Swaney
    Dan, I just wiped out several paragraphs on my views with regard to the problems of New Testament interpretation. It won t do any good, might cause you harm,
    Message 1 of 8 , May 16, 2005
      Dan,

      I just wiped out several paragraphs on my views with regard to the problems
      of New Testament interpretation.

      It won't do any good, might cause you harm, and would not likely help anyone
      else either. I love to think about and debate this stuff, but I have in the
      past hurt people's feelings and generally made an Ass of myself in the
      process. I don't want to do that again.

      I would however like to see (if it's possible) some argument that would
      demolish the Gleason thesis that Revelation is a parody on Greek
      Christianity. But it would have to be based on non-sectarian arguments
      founded on history and/or textual analysis.

      One thing that would help is to analyze the other evidence of parody that
      Gleason claims to be in Revelation - the insulting references to Jesus for
      example. So I will try to find time to poke around and see what can be
      uncovered on those subjects.

      The numerology of the garden continues - now if only I knew half as much
      about growing flowers and vegetables as I know about numbers I would be
      better off!

      Mark

      -----Original Message-----
      From: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel N. Washburn
      Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 8:40 PM
      To: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [sl] 666, 616



      Mark Swaney wrote:

      >Folks,
      >
      >I think Dan is right on this issue of 666 vs 616.
      >
      >However, it is true that there were some copies of Revelation that listed
      >the letters differently, and they added to 616. It is possible that this
      >was done to eliminate the consequence of the 2368 at the end of the verse
      >which reverses the sense of the sentence - at least I think it does.
      >
      Not in my interpretation. The whole sense of the beast passage is that
      he will fool the faithful by miracles
      into believing that the beast and the dragon are gods.

      The one having wisdom will count the number of the beast, not be fooled,
      and still see Jesus Christ
      not the antichrist..

      >
      >The reversal of the sense of the meaning of the famous passage giving the
      >Number of the Beast is in "character" for Revelation is written in a
      >mirror-image style. For every holy character, there is a corresponding
      >infernal one. The use of the opposing "opposites" was a Greek pagan type of
      >cosmology and bound to be attractive to newly converted Greek pagans (the
      >targets of the author) who actually knew nothing, or at least very little,
      >about Jewish beliefs and traditions. This ignorance of, and in many cases,
      >hostility to, Jewish culture on the part of gentile pagans is what made it
      >so easy for the Greek "Christians" to misinterpret the Jewish prophecies
      and
      >claim that they proved that Jesus was the Son of God - an idea totally
      alien
      >to Jewish thinking, but right in line with the Greeks.
      >
      But there were sons of god in jewish thought. For one they were the
      angels and the meaning of angel was
      not wholly a separate being - it was an expression of the power of god.

      'You are my beloved son' at the baptism - echoes psalm 2(?) in which the
      new king is adopted by god as his son

      The miracle working holy man Hanina ben Dosa, a close Galilean
      contemporary of Jesus,
      called himself a 'Son of the House'

      >How easy then for the author (no doubt an Ebionite - that is one of the
      >group of the original followers of Jesus) to use gematria and references to
      >Jewish texts to simply reverse the identification of each character and
      turn
      >the whole work on its head - thus having a good joke on Paul's Christians.
      >
      >
      The Ebionites saw Jesus as a human being not a god, whereas the original
      community in Jerusalem led by J's brother James showed signs of
      worshipping him as a god. It is very arguable that J saw himself as
      god(the son of god - an angel/an adopted son) and that he taught this
      to the disciples.

      Things are more complicated than greek vs jew, paul vs jerusalem.

      By the way, congrats on the great numerology of your garden, Mark!
      Been meaning to get back to you about it.

      Dan

      >Mark
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
      >[mailto:sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel N.
      Washburn
      >Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 5:25 AM
      >To: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [sl] 666, 616
      >
      >Third century manuscript, eh? Still pretty late in the game. 616 is
      >much more likely to be a copyist error than 666.
      >
      >Irenaeus, a church father dating from around 170 AD, talks about the 666
      >number.
      >
      >The Chester Beatty Papyrus, until this new upstart manuscript, the
      >oldest known instance of the Book of Rev, clearly has 666. I've seen
      >photographs.
      >
      >The Beast in Revelation is depicted as a blasphemy on Jesus and the
      >number of the name on the heads (or hands) of the lost is a blasphemy on
      >the name that is sealed on the foreheads of the 144,000 elect, mentioned
      >in the next verse of the book after the 666 verse. That name is
      >probably Jesus equal by gematria to 888. So the number of the Beast
      >666 is a blasphemy on the number of Jesus 888.
      >
      >In my own research I've shown how the city of the new jerusalem is
      >related to the number 777, so I wouldn't bet the farm on 616. The
      >author of Rev was starry eyed about number triples.
      >
      >Dan
      >
      >mikebispham@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >>One for the affectionados...
      >>
      >>Despite the light tone there's probably some serious stuff behind this
      >>if anyone fancies sniffing it out.
      >>
      >>Mike
      >>
      >>Thursday May 12, 2005
      >>The Guardian <http://www.guardian.co.uk/>
      >>
      >>Why are you peering at that child's scalp? Has he got headlice?
      >>No, he's been misbehaving and I'm trying to see if he is branded with
      >>the number of the beast, like Damien in the Omen. Obviously.
      >>
      >>And is there any sign of 666?
      >>No, because that's not the number of the beast.
      >>
      >>Excuse me, but I think you'll find it is. I quote: "666, the number of
      >>the beast. Hell and fire were spawned to be released."
      >>That doesn't sound like the Book of Revelation.
      >>
      >>It's not, it's Iron Maiden. But it's shorter than "Let him that hath
      >>understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a
      >>man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
      >>But both your Bible and your Maiden are wrong. The number of the beast
      >>is actually 616.
      >>
      >>Where did the other 50 go? They were never there in the first place.
      >>Oxford University researchers looking at the oldest available copy of
      >>the New Testament, which dates back to the third century, have just
      >>realised the number is the Greek figures for 616.
      >>
      >>What? The book's nearly 2,000 years old and no one has bothered
      >>reading it properly till now? To be fair, it wasn't excavated until
      >>1895. And it was very dirty. Only now do we have the advanced imaging
      >>technology to strip away the dirt and see the truth.
      >>
      >>So how did we end up with 666? The same way we end up with every row
      >>about the meaning of scripture. The Bible has been copied so many
      >>times it's like Chinese whispers. For all we know, Moses might have
      >>confronted God's gurning mush, not his burning bush.
      >>
      >>Still, at least we now know the devil's number. Probably not,
      >>actually. Scholars believe the number to be a political puzzle
      >>relating to someone's name - and they think that name is Nero.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
      >>http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
      >>
      >>To UNsubscribe, send email to:
      >>sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sacredlandscapelist/
      >>
      >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >>
      >>
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      >
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      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
      >http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




      Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
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    • keith dennis
      hey guys, remember me? http://www.astrologycom.com/armstone1.html Karahundj Armenia s Stonehenge Prehistoric Stonehenge at Karahundj Armenia, located in the
      Message 2 of 8 , May 16, 2005
        hey guys, remember me?

        http://www.astrologycom.com/armstone1.html


        Karahundj
        Armenia's Stonehenge
        Prehistoric Stonehenge at Karahundj Armenia, located
        in the Caucasian Mountains on the Black Sea between
        Russia and Turkey, contains some of the most
        significant cultural examples of sacred geometry, as
        well as other remarkable prehistoric structures, such
        as the "stonehenge" at Karahundj. Rick Ney explores
        their cultural significance.

        They sit like soldiers on a hill, huddled in
        formation. The 204 stones near Sissian have been
        ascribed with mystical, fertility and cosmic powers,
        but rarely have ancient monuments caused such a
        sensation in astronomical circles.

        These simple stones stretched out along the crest of a
        hill overlooking the Sissian River challenge the very
        dating of early astronomy and the answer to the
        question, "Who were the first astronomers?" If proven
        true, a current controversial dating of the stones at
        Karahundj predate England's Stonehenge, they predate
        the Babylonian's claim to being the first astronomers,
        and they confirm what some people already suspect:
        that Armenia is the birthplace of the zodiac, and
        perhaps the beginning of navigation and the concept of
        time.


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Daniel N. Washburn
        ... Mark, I can guarantee you won t hurt my feelings. I m quite well aware of the fact that J might have been a raving schizophrenic with delusions of
        Message 3 of 8 , May 17, 2005
          Mark Swaney wrote:

          >Dan,
          >
          >I just wiped out several paragraphs on my views with regard to the problems
          >of New Testament interpretation.
          >
          >It won't do any good, might cause you harm, and would not likely help anyone
          >else either. I love to think about and debate this stuff, but I have in the
          >past hurt people's feelings and generally made an Ass of myself in the
          >process. I don't want to do that again.
          >

          Mark, I can guarantee you won't hurt my feelings. I'm quite well aware
          of the fact that J might have been
          a raving schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur and that I might be
          entirely wrong in believing that the
          Mind of Nature ensouls all beings. So rant away. If it devolves into
          pure invective, I'll enjoy the writing
          but let you know that you need to get back to rational discourse on list
          topics. If you make an Ass of
          yourself, I assure you it will be a Golden Ass, well appreciated for its
          approach to the Mysteries.

          >
          >I would however like to see (if it's possible) some argument that would
          >demolish the Gleason thesis that Revelation is a parody on Greek
          >Christianity. But it would have to be based on non-sectarian arguments
          >founded on history and/or textual analysis.
          >
          Amen, brother.

          >One thing that would help is to analyze the other evidence of parody that
          >Gleason claims to be in Revelation - the insulting references to Jesus for
          >example. So I will try to find time to poke around and see what can be
          >uncovered on those subjects.
          >
          More evidence one way or another would be welcome re Gleason, since he
          seems to have
          withdrawn it from his web site at the moment.

          >The numerology of the garden continues - now if only I knew half as much
          >about growing flowers and vegetables as I know about numbers I would be
          >better off!
          >
          We plant sweet basil between the tomato plants to help ward off the
          dreaded hornworm. The couple
          of times we have tried Nematodes it didn't seem to do anything to the
          grub population.

          Dan

          >
          >Mark
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
          >[mailto:sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel N. Washburn
          >Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 8:40 PM
          >To: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [sl] 666, 616
          >
          >
          >
          >Mark Swaney wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >>Folks,
          >>
          >>I think Dan is right on this issue of 666 vs 616.
          >>
          >>However, it is true that there were some copies of Revelation that listed
          >>the letters differently, and they added to 616. It is possible that this
          >>was done to eliminate the consequence of the 2368 at the end of the verse
          >>which reverses the sense of the sentence - at least I think it does.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >Not in my interpretation. The whole sense of the beast passage is that
          >he will fool the faithful by miracles
          >into believing that the beast and the dragon are gods.
          >
          >The one having wisdom will count the number of the beast, not be fooled,
          >and still see Jesus Christ
          >not the antichrist..
          >
          >
          >
          >>The reversal of the sense of the meaning of the famous passage giving the
          >>Number of the Beast is in "character" for Revelation is written in a
          >>mirror-image style. For every holy character, there is a corresponding
          >>infernal one. The use of the opposing "opposites" was a Greek pagan type of
          >>cosmology and bound to be attractive to newly converted Greek pagans (the
          >>targets of the author) who actually knew nothing, or at least very little,
          >>about Jewish beliefs and traditions. This ignorance of, and in many cases,
          >>hostility to, Jewish culture on the part of gentile pagans is what made it
          >>so easy for the Greek "Christians" to misinterpret the Jewish prophecies
          >>
          >>
          >and
          >
          >
          >>claim that they proved that Jesus was the Son of God - an idea totally
          >>
          >>
          >alien
          >
          >
          >>to Jewish thinking, but right in line with the Greeks.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >But there were sons of god in jewish thought. For one they were the
          >angels and the meaning of angel was
          >not wholly a separate being - it was an expression of the power of god.
          >
          >'You are my beloved son' at the baptism - echoes psalm 2(?) in which the
          >new king is adopted by god as his son
          >
          >The miracle working holy man Hanina ben Dosa, a close Galilean
          >contemporary of Jesus,
          > called himself a 'Son of the House'
          >
          >
          >
          >>How easy then for the author (no doubt an Ebionite - that is one of the
          >>group of the original followers of Jesus) to use gematria and references to
          >>Jewish texts to simply reverse the identification of each character and
          >>
          >>
          >turn
          >
          >
          >>the whole work on its head - thus having a good joke on Paul's Christians.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >The Ebionites saw Jesus as a human being not a god, whereas the original
          >community in Jerusalem led by J's brother James showed signs of
          >worshipping him as a god. It is very arguable that J saw himself as
          >god(the son of god - an angel/an adopted son) and that he taught this
          >to the disciples.
          >
          >Things are more complicated than greek vs jew, paul vs jerusalem.
          >
          >By the way, congrats on the great numerology of your garden, Mark!
          >Been meaning to get back to you about it.
          >
          >Dan
          >
          >
          >
          >>Mark
          >>
          >>-----Original Message-----
          >>From: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
          >>[mailto:sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel N.
          >>
          >>
          >Washburn
          >
          >
          >>Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 5:25 AM
          >>To: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
          >>Subject: Re: [sl] 666, 616
          >>
          >>Third century manuscript, eh? Still pretty late in the game. 616 is
          >>much more likely to be a copyist error than 666.
          >>
          >>Irenaeus, a church father dating from around 170 AD, talks about the 666
          >>number.
          >>
          >>The Chester Beatty Papyrus, until this new upstart manuscript, the
          >>oldest known instance of the Book of Rev, clearly has 666. I've seen
          >>photographs.
          >>
          >>The Beast in Revelation is depicted as a blasphemy on Jesus and the
          >>number of the name on the heads (or hands) of the lost is a blasphemy on
          >>the name that is sealed on the foreheads of the 144,000 elect, mentioned
          >>in the next verse of the book after the 666 verse. That name is
          >>probably Jesus equal by gematria to 888. So the number of the Beast
          >>666 is a blasphemy on the number of Jesus 888.
          >>
          >>In my own research I've shown how the city of the new jerusalem is
          >>related to the number 777, so I wouldn't bet the farm on 616. The
          >>author of Rev was starry eyed about number triples.
          >>
          >>Dan
          >>
          >>mikebispham@... wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>One for the affectionados...
          >>>
          >>>Despite the light tone there's probably some serious stuff behind this
          >>>if anyone fancies sniffing it out.
          >>>
          >>>Mike
          >>>
          >>>Thursday May 12, 2005
          >>>The Guardian <http://www.guardian.co.uk/>
          >>>
          >>>Why are you peering at that child's scalp? Has he got headlice?
          >>>No, he's been misbehaving and I'm trying to see if he is branded with
          >>>the number of the beast, like Damien in the Omen. Obviously.
          >>>
          >>>And is there any sign of 666?
          >>>No, because that's not the number of the beast.
          >>>
          >>>Excuse me, but I think you'll find it is. I quote: "666, the number of
          >>>the beast. Hell and fire were spawned to be released."
          >>>That doesn't sound like the Book of Revelation.
          >>>
          >>>It's not, it's Iron Maiden. But it's shorter than "Let him that hath
          >>>understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a
          >>>man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
          >>>But both your Bible and your Maiden are wrong. The number of the beast
          >>>is actually 616.
          >>>
          >>>Where did the other 50 go? They were never there in the first place.
          >>>Oxford University researchers looking at the oldest available copy of
          >>>the New Testament, which dates back to the third century, have just
          >>>realised the number is the Greek figures for 616.
          >>>
          >>>What? The book's nearly 2,000 years old and no one has bothered
          >>>reading it properly till now? To be fair, it wasn't excavated until
          >>>1895. And it was very dirty. Only now do we have the advanced imaging
          >>>technology to strip away the dirt and see the truth.
          >>>
          >>>So how did we end up with 666? The same way we end up with every row
          >>>about the meaning of scripture. The Bible has been copied so many
          >>>times it's like Chinese whispers. For all we know, Moses might have
          >>>confronted God's gurning mush, not his burning bush.
          >>>
          >>>Still, at least we now know the devil's number. Probably not,
          >>>actually. Scholars believe the number to be a political puzzle
          >>>relating to someone's name - and they think that name is Nero.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
          >>>http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
          >>>
          >>>To UNsubscribe, send email to:
          >>>sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sacredlandscapelist/
          >>>
          >>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >>> sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >><mailto:sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>
          >>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          >>> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >>Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
          >>http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
          >>
          >>To UNsubscribe, send email to:
          >>sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
          >>http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
          >>
          >>To UNsubscribe, send email to:
          >>sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>
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          >>
          >>
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          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
          >http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
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        • Daniel N. Washburn
          Hi, Kieth My wife recently installed Noton Parental Security on our computers because our godson comes to visit frequently, but it blocks the Armenian
          Message 4 of 8 , May 22, 2005
            Hi, Kieth

            My wife recently installed Noton Parental Security on our computers
            because our godson comes to visit frequently, but it blocks the Armenian
            Stonehenge site that you list below. It says it is in the Occult/New
            Age category. Sounds like rank religious discrimination against the 20
            million New Agers in the US to me, probably at the behest of the
            (so-called) christians who see demonic activity everywhere they look,
            including the moon symbol on Proctor and Gamble products.

            In googling around to see what I could find I came across this
            interesting page on sacred geometry in armenia

            http://www.tacentral.com/architecture.asp?story_no=2

            Thanks for the push in this direction, Kieth

            Dan

            keith dennis wrote:

            >hey guys, remember me?
            >
            >http://www.astrologycom.com/armstone1.html
            >
            >
            >Karahundj
            >Armenia's Stonehenge
            >Prehistoric Stonehenge at Karahundj Armenia, located
            >in the Caucasian Mountains on the Black Sea between
            >Russia and Turkey, contains some of the most
            >significant cultural examples of sacred geometry, as
            >well as other remarkable prehistoric structures, such
            >as the "stonehenge" at Karahundj. Rick Ney explores
            >their cultural significance.
            >
            >They sit like soldiers on a hill, huddled in
            >formation. The 204 stones near Sissian have been
            >ascribed with mystical, fertility and cosmic powers,
            >but rarely have ancient monuments caused such a
            >sensation in astronomical circles.
            >
            >These simple stones stretched out along the crest of a
            >hill overlooking the Sissian River challenge the very
            >dating of early astronomy and the answer to the
            >question, "Who were the first astronomers?" If proven
            >true, a current controversial dating of the stones at
            >Karahundj predate England's Stonehenge, they predate
            >the Babylonian's claim to being the first astronomers,
            >and they confirm what some people already suspect:
            >that Armenia is the birthplace of the zodiac, and
            >perhaps the beginning of navigation and the concept of
            >time.
            >
            >
            >__________________________________________________
            >Do You Yahoo!?
            >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            >http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            >Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
            >http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
            >
            >To UNsubscribe, send email to:
            >sacredlandscapelist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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