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Re: [sl] Re: ASE/Esoterica Newsletter (March 2005)

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  • mikebispham@aol.com
    Cheers Mark. Are you still terrorising the history of magic squares? Mike In a message dated 3/22/05 6:58:11 PM GMT Standard Time, ... Cheers Mark. Are you
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 24, 2005
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      Cheers Mark.  Are you still terrorising the history of magic squares?

      Mike

      In a message dated 3/22/05 6:58:11 PM GMT Standard Time, mswaney@... writes:


      It’s good to see that Mike Bispham is back at the SL list.




      Mark Swaney



    • Mark Swaney
      Mike and all, Well I have come to some conclusions on certain issues that motivated my study in the first place. I have more work to do before I am willing to
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 24, 2005
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        Mike and all,

         

        Well I have come to some conclusions on certain issues that motivated my study in the first place.  I have more work to do before I am willing to put out a full history of magic squares – but most of what is in my study of them has already been discussed on this list previously.

         

        Unfortunately for most of the folks on the SL list, my conclusions are not congenial and so I have not written about them.  Because of the huge emotional investment that is made by everyone in what Edward Gibbon called “the superstition of our fathers” there is virtually no chance that any good could come from a discussion of my conclusions.  Also, I am not credentialed and so even publishing in another forum would not likely be of any value.

         

        It has however been enormously satisfying to me personally to put to rest nagging questions about the famous Mark of the Beast - the number 666.

         

        Briefly, I think that Dan Gleason has it exactly right when he says that the book of Revelation is a parody of the Gospels meant to appear like Christian literature, but is actually a scathing satire on Roman Christianity in which the holy persons are identified as whores and demons.  Through the use of the same devices that appear in the Gospels – gematria and twisted references to Old Testament literature – Revelation is a “blasphemy” of the first order.  It is probably the most successful parody in all history.  In short, in case anyone misses it, the author of Revelation identifies Christ as the Beast through the use of gematria and the number 666.

         

        Clearly, the implications are profound – if you accept Gleason’s idea.  Of course it’s nothing if you don’t, and I don’t care to argue about it.  Believe it or else, it’s all the same to me.

         

        Other conclusions –

         

        1. There was no system of sacred mathematics and geometry based on magic squares.  Magic squares were most likely not known to the West at the time of the writing of the NT.  666 was used because of two facts – it was used in the Old Testament – AND it was a convenient parody of the number of Jesus, 888.  The author of Revelation had no idea that 666 is the sum of the square of 6.  Other references to the multiples of 37 – 888, 1480, 2368, etc. are either dependant (meaning they are built up on the same foundation) or are coincidence.
        2. The use of gematria to create geometric diagrams of the sort that John Michell uses are not valid – they are spurious figments of Michell’s and other’s imaginations – good use of imagination though, that stuff is very entertaining.
        3. There are no Ley lines, and no energy fields, no ancient engineering based on a lost principal of physics illustrated by the laws of magic squares.  Once again, this stuff is entertaining, but is not real.
        4. The authors of the gospels DID use gematria – but in a much simpler way than that imagined by numerous modern authors.  Basically, the mathematics did not rise above simple arithmetic – and most definitely did not include a knowledge of an accurate value of Pi or the natural logarithm or the golden section.  A good study of the gematria of the NT – undertaken by VERY sober researchers will probably still yield good results, but has yet to be undertaken because of the sheen of the fantastic that has been the halo of such ideas for the last hundred or so years.

         

        Left open to future research and study – the general connections between mathematics and reality and especially the way in which the human mind works.  A larger field of study not undertaken by anyone that I know of is the study of the relationship between early religion and mathematics in cultures around the world.  I despair of being able to ever make any good contribution to mapping this unexplored country.  I’m too busy fighting the horrors of FASCISM.

         

        Cheers,

         

        Mark

         

         


        From: mikebispham@... [mailto:mikebispham@...]
        Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 1:09 PM
        To: sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [sl] Re: ASE/Esoterica Newsletter (March 2005)

         

        Cheers Mark.  Are you still terrorising the history of magic squares?

        Mike

        In a message dated 3/22/05 6:58:11 PM GMT Standard Time, mswaney@... writes:



        It’s good to see that Mike Bispham is back at the SL list.



        Mark Swaney





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      • Daniel N. Washburn
        ... Hi, Mark - .I haven t read Dan Gleason s recent work on Revelation but the idea that it is a parody identifying Jesus as the anti-chirst via gematria is
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 28, 2005
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          Mark Swaney wrote:

          >
          > Briefly, I think that Dan Gleason has it exactly right when he says
          > that the book of Revelation is a parody of the Gospels meant to appear
          > like Christian literature, but is actually a scathing satire on Roman
          > Christianity in which the holy persons are identified as whores and
          > demons. Through the use of the same devices that appear in the Gospels
          > – gematria and twisted references to Old Testament literature –
          > Revelation is a “blasphemy” of the first order. It is probably the
          > most successful parody in all history. In short, in case anyone misses
          > it, the author of Revelation identifies Christ as the Beast through
          > the use of gematria and the number 666.
          >
          > Clearly, the implications are profound – if you accept Gleason’s idea.
          > Of course it’s nothing if you don’t, and I don’t care to argue about
          > it. Believe it or else, it’s all the same to me.
          >
          Hi, Mark -

          .I haven't read Dan Gleason's recent work on Revelation but the idea
          that it is a parody identifying Jesus as the anti-chirst via gematria is
          just loopy. Let's say I write a book praising George Bush but include
          secret code that slanders him. Why!!! If I am so wrought up against W
          that I need to write a book, why wouldn't I make it evident to the
          reader? In the case of 'let the one with understanding count the number
          of the beast, his number is 666' where 'his number is 666' adds up to
          2368, the number of Jesus Christ, the message is that the one with true
          understanding will see beyond the illusions of the anti-christ to the
          real christ.


          > Other conclusions –
          >
          > 1. There was no system of sacred mathematics and geometry based on
          > magic squares. Magic squares were most likely not known to the
          > West at the time of the writing of the NT. 666 was used because
          > of two facts – it was used in the Old Testament – AND it was a
          > convenient parody of the number of Jesus, 888. The author of
          > Revelation had no idea that 666 is the sum of the square of 6.
          > Other references to the multiples of 37 – 888, 1480, 2368, etc.
          > are either dependant (meaning they are built up on the same
          > foundation) or are coincidence.
          >
          Agreed that magic squares very probably had not yet been discovered in
          the first century -- but I still believe that sacred geometry/gematria
          were part of first century christianity. .

          > 1.
          > 2. The use of gematria to create geometric diagrams of the sort
          > that John Michell uses are not valid – they are spurious
          > figments of Michell’s and other’s imaginations – good use of
          > imagination though, that stuff is very entertaining.
          >
          Can't agree with this one.

          > 1.
          > 2. There are no Ley lines, and no energy fields, no ancient
          > engineering based on a lost principal of physics illustrated by
          > the laws of magic squares. Once again, this stuff is
          > entertaining, but is not real.
          >
          Depends on what you mean by Ley lines. I think sacred geography was very
          important to ancient peoples.
          Certain personal experiences make me think that there is truth to energy
          fields. Is their physics contained in laws derived from magic squares,
          no. Are they connected with Ley lines? Again it depends on what you mean
          by a Ley line. We have two unknows with no clear equation so any
          solution depends on further research

          > 1.
          > 2. The authors of the gospels DID use gematria – but in a much
          > simpler way than that imagined by numerous modern authors.
          > Basically, the mathematics did not rise above simple arithmetic
          > – and most definitely did not include a knowledge of an accurate
          > value of Pi or the natural logarithm or the golden section. A
          > good study of the gematria of the NT – undertaken by VERY sober
          > researchers will probably still yield good results, but has yet
          > to be undertaken because of the sheen of the fantastic that has
          > been the halo of such ideas for the last hundred or so years.
          >
          Geometry was the sacred science in those days Euclid dates from around
          300 bc. There is every possibility that gematria could have been
          connected with geometry. Agreed that the true value of pi was not known,
          though it was approximated by 22/7ths.

          Sober researchers aren't interested in these kinds of endeavors. It
          takes a mad genius like Michell or Fideler to make progress.


          > 1.
          >
          > Left open to future research and study – the general connections
          > between mathematics and reality and especially the way in which the
          > human mind works. A larger field of study not undertaken by anyone
          > that I know of is the study of the relationship between early religion
          > and mathematics in cultures around the world. I despair of being able
          > to ever make any good contribution to mapping this unexplored country.
          > I’m too busy fighting the horrors of FASCISM.
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Mark
          >
          I applaud both your math/religion researches and the anti-fascist fight.
          Bravo Mark. Way to go!

          Dan
        • Khem Caigan
          ... Nice to see you weighing in, Mark. Your bibliographies have proven useful to me in the past; I hope my list of readings below will be of some use in your
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 29, 2005
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            Mark Swaney writes:
            >
            > 4. The authors of the gospels DID use gematria – but in a much
            > simpler way than that imagined by numerous modern authors.
            > Basically, the mathematics did not rise above simple arithmetic –
            > and most definitely did not include a knowledge of an accurate
            > value of Pi or the natural logarithm or the golden section. A
            > good study of the gematria of the NT – undertaken by VERY sober
            > researchers will probably still yield good results, but has yet to
            > be undertaken because of the sheen of the fantastic that has been
            > the halo of such ideas for the last hundred or so years.

            Nice to see you weighing in, Mark. Your bibliographies have proven
            useful to me in the past; I hope my list of readings below will be of
            some use in your own work. It's a melange of combinatorial
            architectural & textual studies, with a dash of apocalyptic
            isopsephia thrown in for good measure. If you're not familiar with
            Howlett's work yet, you may be pleasantly surprised to find that we
            *do* have a sober researcher on the case.


            ===========: ABBA & EDAC:=============

            Jacob Bazak - "Numerical devices in biblical
            poetry", in _Vetus Testamentum_ 38.3, 1988, pp.
            333–37.

            Peter Ellis - _The Genius of John: A
            Composition-Critical Commentary on the Fourth
            Gospel_, 1984.

            Denys Lionel Page - _Further Greek Epigrams:
            Epigrams Before A. D. 50 from the Greek Anthology
            and Other Sources_, 1982. [ Leonides of
            Alexandria's isopsephic epigrams on pp. 503-541 ]

            See also Aulius Gellius - _Attic Nights_, 14.5.4 -
            for an account of some isopsephic lines in Homer,
            and Artemidorus - _Oneirocritica_, on isopsephic
            dreams.

            Nils Lund - _Chiasmus in the New Testament: A
            Study in the Form and Function of Chiastic
            Structures_, 1992.

            James Bailey & Lyle Vander - _Literary Forms in
            the New Testament_, 1992.

            Barbara Babcock - _The Reversible World: Symbolic
            Inversion in Art and Society_, 1978.

            John Breck - _The Shape of Biblical Language_, 1994.

            Paul Kiparsky
            On the Architecture of Panini's Grammar
            http://www.stanford.edu/~kiparsky/Papers/hyderabad.pdf

            Warren Motte - _OULIPO: A Primer of Potential
            Literature_, 1986.

            John Hollander - _Vision and Resonance: Two Senses
            of Poetic Form_, 1975.

            Richard Kostelanetz(ed.) - _Imaged Words and
            Worded Images_, 1970.

            Georges Perec - _Species of Spaces and Other
            Pieces_, 1997.
            " " - _Life A Users Manual_, 1978.

            Eleanor Leach - _The Rhetoric of Space: Literary
            and Artistic Representations of Landscape in
            Republican and Augustan Rome_, 1988.

            Vincent Scully - _The Earth, the Temple, and the
            Gods: Greek Sacred Architecture_, 1962.

            George Hersey - _Pythagorean Palaces: Magic and
            Architecture in the Italian Renaissance_, 1976.

            Robert Sack - _Human Territoriality: Its Theory
            and History, 1986.

            " " - _Conception of Space in
            Social Thought: A Geographic Perspective_, 1980.

            Margaret Barker - _The Gate of Heaven: The History
            and Symbolism of the Temple in Jerusalem_, 1991.

            Jamie Scott & Paul Simpson-Housley - _Sacred
            Places and Profane Spaces: Essays in the
            Geographies of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam_,
            1991.

            Paul Simpson-Housley and Peter Preston (eds.) -
            _Writing the City: Eden, Babylon and the New
            Jerusalem_, 1994.

            Martha Himmelfarb - _Ascent to Heaven in Jewish
            and Christian Apocalypses_, 1993.

            Arthur Green (ed.) - _Jewish Spirituality: From
            the Bible Through the Middle Ages_, 1986.

            Christopher Rowland - _The Open Heaven: A Study of
            Apocalypse in Judaism and Early Christianity_, 1982.

            Alastair Fowler - _Triumphal Forms_, 1970.

            Mary Ann Caws - _The Art of Interference: Stressed
            Readings in Verbal and Visual Texts_, 1989.

            Franz Dornseiff - _Das Alphabet in Mystik und
            Magie_, 1925.

            Oskar Becker - _Das Mathematische Denken der
            Antike_, 1957.

            Bruce Metzger - _The Text of the New Testament_, 1992.

            Charles Talbert - _Literary Patterns, Theological
            Themes, and the Genre of Luke-Acts_, 1974.

            Roland Meynet - _Rhetorical Analysis: An
            Introduction to Biblical Rhetoric_, 1998.

            George Buchanan Gray - _The Forms of Hebrew
            Poetry: Considered with Special Reference to the
            Criticism and Interpretation of the Old
            Testament_, 2002.

            John Welch (ed.) - _Chiasmus in Antiquity_, 1981.

            Wilfred Watson - _Traditional Techniques in
            Classical Hebrew Verse_1994.

            " " - _Classical Hebrew
            Poetry: A Guide to its Techniques_, 1985.

            Prabhatchandra Chakravarti - _The Linguistic
            Speculations of the Hindus_, 1933.

            Harold Coward - _The Sphota Theory of Language: A
            Philosophical and Psychological Analysis_, 1980.

            Adela Yarbro Collins - "Numerical symbolism in
            Jewish and Early Christian Apocalyptic
            Literature", in Wolfgang Haase and Hildegard
            Temporini (eds.) - _Aufstieg und Niedergang der
            römischen Welt_, vol. II.21.2, pp.1221–87, 1970.

            Francis Colson - "Triangular Numbers in the New
            Testament", in _Journal of Theological Studies_
            16, pp.67–76, 1915.

            John Davis - _Biblical Numerology: A Basic Study
            of the Use of Numbers in the Bible_, 1968.

            Anna Esmeijer - _Divina Quaternitas. A
            Preliminary Study in the Method and Application of
            Visual Exegesis_, 1978.

            Harold Bloom - _Kaballah and Criticism_, 1975.

            Albert Geyser - "The twelve tribes in Revelation:
            Judean and Judeo-Christian apocalypticism
            [symbolism of the number twelve]", in _New
            Testament Studies_ 28, pp.388–399, 1982.

            Jerome Walsh - _Traditional Techniques in
            Classical Hebrew Verse_, 1994.

            " " - _Style and Structure in
            Biblical Hebrew Narrative_, 2001.

            Jack Lundbom - _Jeremiah: A Study in Ancient
            Hebrew Rhetoric_, 1997.

            Ernest McClain - _The Myth of Invariance: The
            Origin of the Gods, Mathematics, and Music from
            the Rig Veda to Plato_, 1976.

            Ernest McLain - _The Pythagorean Plato: Prelude to
            the Song Itself_, 1978.

            John McQueen - _Numerology. Theory and Outline
            History of a Literary Mode_, 1985.

            Dominic J. O’Meara - _Pythagoras Revived:
            Mathematics and Philosophy in Late Antiquity_, 1989.

            Gunnar Quarnstrom - _Poetry and Numbers: On the
            Structural Use of Symbolic Numbers_, 1966.

            Herbert Rand - "Numerological Stucture in
            Biblical Literature", in _Jewish Bible Quarterly_
            20, pp. 50–56, 1991.

            Dick Higgins - _Pattern Poetry: Guide to an
            Unknown Literature_, 1987.

            Edward Levenston - _The Stuff of Literature:
            Physical Aspects of Texts and their Relationship
            to Meaning_, 1992.

            Yaakon HaCohen-Kerner, Ariel Kass and Ariel Peretz
            - "Baseline Methods for Automatic Disambiguation
            of Abbreviations in Jewish Law Documents", in Jose
            Luis Vicedo, Patricio Martinez Barco (et aliter)
            {eds.} - _Advances in Natural Language Processing:
            4th International Congress_, 2004.

            David Howlett - _Self-Authenticating Insular
            Charters_, 2004.

            " " - _British Books in Biblical
            Style: Early Alfredian and after the Conquest_, 1997.

            Frits Staal - _Rules Without Meaning: Ritual,
            Mantras and the Human Sciences_, 1989.

            " " - "Shapes of Vedic Altars", in
            Gudrun Buhnemann (ed.) - _Mandalas and Yantras in
            the Hindu Traditions_, 2003.

            Subhash Kak -_The Astronomical Code of the
            Rgveda_, 2000.

            Subhash Kak and T.R.N. Rao (eds.) - _Computing
            Science in Ancient India_, 2000.

            Olga Isabel Diez-Velasco - "Metaphor, Metonymy and
            Image-Schemas: An Analysis of Conceptual
            Interaction Patterns", in _Journal of English
            Studies_ 3, pp.47-64, 2001-2.
            [available online here:
            http://publicaciones.unirioja.es/ej/jes/jes03/art04.pdf%5d

            Thomas Thompson & William Watkins - _From
            Error-Correcting Codes through Sphere Packings to
            Simple Groups_, 2004.

            Denis Auroux - _Sphere Packings, Crystals, and
            Error-Correcting Codes_, 2004.
            http://www-math.mit.edu/~auroux/papers/iap-packings.pdf

            John Horton Conway & Neil J. Sloane - _Sphere
            Packings, Lattices and Groups_, 1998.

            Allan Paivio - _Imagery and Verbal Processes_, 1971.

            Cleanth Brooks - _The Well-Wrought Urn: Studies in
            the Structure of Poetry_, 1956.

            Willard Van Orman Quine - _The Ways of Paradox,
            and Other Essays_, 1976.

            Rene Dirven - _Metaphor and Metonymy in Comparison
            and Contrast_, 2002.

            Barbara Holdredge - _Veda and Torah: Transcending
            the Textuality of Scripture_, 1996.

            Jonathan Smith - _Map Is Not Territory_, 1978.

            " " - _To Take Place: Toward
            Theory in Ritual_, 1987.

            Claude Levi-Strauss - _Structural Anthropology_, 1974.

            Ferdinand De Saussure - _Course in General
            Linguistics_, 1989.

            Desmond Harding - _Writing the City: Urban Visions
            and Literary Modernism_, 2003.

            Victor Ieronim Stoichita - _The Self-Aware Image:
            An Insight into Early Modern Meta-Painting_, 1997.

            Jiri Adamek - _Foundations of Coding: Theory and
            Applications of Error-Correcting Codes with an
            Introduction to Cryptography and Information
            Theory_, 1991.

            John Horton Conway -"Lexicographic Codes:
            Error-Correcting Codes from Game Theory", in _IEEE
            Transactions on Information Theory: IT-32_, 1986,
            pp. 337-348.

            Steven Holtzman - _Digital Mantras: The Language
            of Abstract and Virtual Worlds_, 1994.

            Mary Carruthers - _The Book of Memory : A Study of
            Memory in Medieval Culture_, 1992.

            " " - _The Craft of Thought :
            Meditation, Rhetoric, and the Making of Images,
            400-1200_, 2000.

            " " - _The Medieval Craft of
            Memory: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures_, 2004.

            Frank Kermode - _The Sense of an Ending_, 1967.

            Albert Lord - _The Singer of Tales_, 1968.

            Josue Harari (ed.) - _Textual Strategies:
            Perspectives in Post-Structuralist Criticism_, 1979.

            Ian Thompson - _Chiasmus in the Pauline Letters_,
            1995.

            Vera Pless - _Introduction to the Theory of
            Error-Correcting Codes_, 1998.

            Aviezri Fraenkel - "Error-Correcting Codes Derived
            from Combinatorial Games", in R. J. Nowakowski
            (ed.) - _Games of No Chance_, pp. 417–431, 1996.
            available online here:
            http://www.msri.org/publications/books/Book29/files/codes.pdf

            Steven Friesen - _Imperial Cults and the
            Apocalypse of John_, 2001.

            ======================================

            Cors in Manu Domine,


            ~ Khem Caigan
            <Khem@...>
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