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Re: [sl] Digest Number 768

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  • Vanessa
    THANK YOU DAVID!! I am SO not a scientist; but at the same time, the life I have led has been quite phenomenal in many ways that certainly much of academics
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 21, 2005
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      THANK YOU DAVID!! I am SO not a scientist; but at the same time, the life I have led has been quite phenomenal in many ways that certainly much of academics would dismiss in a heartbeat even tho they are these days, at times, coming around to proving much of what we can perhaps feel is right, but cannot ourselves 'prove'. I see 'greed' being the prime directive as motives way far more than is healthy in any respect collectively.
       
      I think we all have 'agendas' certainly I do have mine altho I like to think mine are much more fair and humanity oriented than many I run into. I am not fooled by the pharmaceutical companies either. They are as much to blame for the dis-ease of this country as anyone. At the same time, Ive had their drugs save my life too. Ive also had vitamins and supplemental regimes and alternatives keep me alive well beyond what another might survive as well. I believe, we should be free without prejudice to examine all worlds, and we should have a right to the best of all worlds. I believe, we should have the right of pro-choice; and that personal acceptance of responsibility should be enacted as the 'law' of the land. And, I am still not impressed with a poorly written webpage that insists you visit porn to read their article sheesh lol! Not that Im a prude, but that it has its place and, that is not the place.
       
      Thank you for helping me express myself. I got a bit upset at that page LOL! ack...and, if you dont mind, I can add you to our healing list we work on with Spiritual Fires each week. Cant hurt...and we've had some pretty phenomenal successes irregardless of whether its by wishful thinking, or whether the Spiritual Fires actually do work. Ive lived my life by them and that is also one thing I attribute me still being here to; altho, its certainly not a 'proven' science either well, at least by academics ;)
       
        My best,
        Vanessa

      sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      There are 4 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: water
      From: David and Suzanne <61madison@...>
      2. Re: Re: water
      From: "Daniel N. Washburn"
      3. Re: Digest Number 767
      From: Vanessa
      4. Re: Reasonings
      From: Vanessa


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:22:47 -0500
      From: David and Suzanne <61madison@...>
      Subject: Re: water

      My father is a retired chemistry professor, and I have no doubt that he
      would applaud the water cluster quackery web site that Dan refers to in
      his last post.

      As a jack-scientist (I escaped the scientific fundamentalism of my
      father, who himself escaped the religious fundamentalism of his father
      who was a Nazarene minister and a holy roller), I have seen too many
      high priests of science othodoxy dismiss pseudo-science and in the age
      of the internet launch impressive web sites to enlighten us lay people
      of the dangers of pseudoscience. See http://www.quackwatch.org/ as an
      odious example (IMO). Unfortunately it is a site recommended by
      Professor Lower.

      I noticed that Lower dismisses homeopathy as quackery as part of his
      attack on the theories of water clusters' retaining memory or energetic
      imprints ... I also noticed a typical "fair" statement toward the end
      of Lower's polemic: "The idea that water can retain any kind of "memory"
      (as Benveniste suggested) is not supported by much evidence, although a
      recent carefully-done study

      does raise this intriguing possibility." Well thank god for possibilities!

      On Quack Watch, Dr Barrett (the high priest of medical orthodoxy who
      writes most of the hatchet pieces on this website) attacks all of the
      following as being unscientific:

      "Each of the following approaches has at least one of the following
      characteristics: (1) its rationale or underlying theory has no
      scientific basis, (2) it has not been demonstrated safe and/or effective
      by well-designed studies, (3) it is deceptively promoted, or (4) its
      practitioners are not qualified to make appropriate diagnoses. This
      article covers traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, ayurvedic
      medicine, clinical ecology, colonic irrigation, craniosacral therapy,
      herbalism, iridology, macrobiotics, naturopathy, orthomolecular therapy,
      and therapeutic touch. Full-length articles on aromatherapy
      ,
      chelation therapy,

      chiropractic
      , and
      homeopathy
      are
      available elsewhere on Quackwatch."

      I cant vouch for all these healing modalities, but I get this very
      strong feeling that Dr. Barrett is working on some kind of agenda. To
      call a spade a spade, I find that Dr. Barrett is nothing more than a
      shill for the AMA and the pharmaceutical industry. Doctor Lower
      includes the FDA on his list of good quack watch sites. Now the AMA,
      the FDA, and the pharmaceutical industry are all powerful institutions
      in our society, and especially in the world of healing. Each has a
      legitimate role to play, but each over reaches that legitimate role and
      has become a political force with repressive and authoritarian
      tendencies. For example, if the FDA is pursuing its' mission of testing
      for contamination or other unsafe practices, then it is doing its' job
      as intended. However when the FDA is enforcing regulations around what
      can be claimed in advertising, it has over stepped its' authority, and
      is acting on a political agenda of controlling the drug market.

      Professors and Doctors like to climb up on their high horses of pure
      science and good medicine, as if these were eternal truths, and that
      only the initiated (other profs and docs) are legitimate actors in the
      world of natural science and medicine, or healing. The arrogance and
      racism of these people can be quite astounding. Chinese medicine is
      dismissed as mysticism. Shamanism is dissed. After all, legitimacy can
      only flow from the purity of the fountainhead of western european
      science and progress. (Excuse the water imagery).

      Thankfully there are scientists and healers who are more evolved and
      think outside the box of orthodoxy and corporate conformity. Compare
      the shifts in scientific paradigms described by Fritjof Capra in
      "Turning Point" (http://www.fritjofcapra.net/), and the work done by
      scientists at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (http://www.noetic.org/)
      with the quack watchers. Even my chemistry professor father, now in
      his eighties, is executive director of IOCD, and works with a younger
      generation of chemists to assist in bioprospecting and developping
      biodiversity resources. (http://www.iocd.org/)

      More disclosure--I am a cancer patient, in fact I am a terminal cancer
      patient (melanoma). My oncologists (whom I respect for their
      dedication and who are world class researchers and doctors at one of
      Boston's best hospitals) told me last summer that there was nothing more
      they could do for me, and referred me to hospice care. Since then I
      have designed my own regimen of herbs, supplements, and "alternative"
      (read unblessed by te FDA) medicine. My experience has taught me that
      even the best scientific minds, or medical minds, cannot know what is
      true for each of us, and that each of our here on earth to deepen and
      expand our own knowledge and understanding. For me, that knowledge
      has meant learning more about how my body works, often through direct
      experimentation, and it has also involved unlearning some of my
      conditioned trust in experts.

      -David




      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

    • Daniel N. Washburn
      Hi, Vanessa: You are posting with the Digest Number in the subject line. On SL we want to avoid this because it makes it hard to identify the thread in our
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 22, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi, Vanessa:

        You are posting with the Digest Number in the subject line. On SL we
        want to avoid this because it makes it hard to identify the thread in
        our archives. Would you please be careful to put in a proper subject
        when you post? Thanks!

        By the way, I have been to the water products de-bunk site several times
        and never had any porn window pop up. Seems highly unlikely to me that
        such a site would be a shill for porn advertising.

        I agree with you, his pointing at a picture of an ice crystal and saying
        'this is not a water molecule' is disengenuous. Obviously ice crystals
        are made up of water molecules. He dismisses Dr. Emoto's work far too
        cavalierly, I believe, there is no consideration at all of the possible
        scientific basis for the work.

        Dan

        Vanessa wrote:

        > THANK YOU DAVID!! I am SO not a scientist; but at the same time, the
        > life I have led has been quite phenomenal in many ways that certainly
        > much of academics would dismiss in a heartbeat even tho they are these
        > days, at times, coming around to proving much of what we can perhaps
        > feel is right, but cannot ourselves 'prove'. I see 'greed' being the
        > prime directive as motives way far more than is healthy in any respect
        > collectively.
        >
        > I think we all have 'agendas' certainly I do have mine altho I like to
        > think mine are much more fair and humanity oriented than many I run
        > into. I am not fooled by the pharmaceutical companies either. They are
        > as much to blame for the dis-ease of this country as anyone. At the
        > same time, Ive had their drugs save my life too. Ive also had vitamins
        > and supplemental regimes and alternatives keep me alive well beyond
        > what another might survive as well. I believe, we should be free
        > without prejudice to examine all worlds, and we should have a right to
        > the best of all worlds. I believe, we should have the right of
        > pro-choice; and that personal acceptance of responsibility should be
        > enacted as the 'law' of the land. And, I am still not impressed with a
        > poorly written webpage that insists you visit porn to read their
        > article sheesh lol! Not that Im a prude, but that it has its place
        > and, that is not the place.
        >
        > Thank you for helping me express myself. I got a bit upset at that
        > page LOL! ack...and, if you dont mind, I can add you to our healing
        > list we work on with Spiritual Fires each week. Cant hurt...and we've
        > had some pretty phenomenal successes irregardless of whether its by
        > wishful thinking, or whether the Spiritual Fires actually do work. Ive
        > lived my life by them and that is also one thing I attribute me still
        > being here to; altho, its certainly not a 'proven' science either
        > well, at least by academics ;)
        >
        > My best,
        > Vanessa
        >
        > sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        >
        >
        > There are 4 messages in this issue.
        >
        > Topics in this digest:
        >
        > 1. Re: water
        > From: David and Suzanne <61madison@...>
        > 2. Re: Re: water
        > From: "Daniel N. Washburn"
        > 3. Re: Digest Number 767
        > From: Vanessa
        > 4. Re: Reasonings
        > From: Vanessa
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        > Message: 1
        > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:22:47 -0500
        > From: David and Suzanne <61madison@...>
        > Subject: Re: water
        >
        > My father is a retired chemistry professor, and I have no doubt
        > that he
        > would applaud the water cluster quackery web site that Dan refers
        > to in
        > his last post.
        >
        > As a jack-scientist (I escaped the scientific fundamentalism of my
        > father, who himself escaped the religious fundamentalism of his
        > father
        > who was a Nazarene minister and a holy roller), I have seen too many
        > high priests of science othodoxy dismiss pseudo-science and in the
        > age
        > of the internet launch impressive web sites to enlighten us lay
        > people
        > of the dangers of pseudoscience. See http://www.quackwatch.org/ as an
        > odious example (IMO). Unfortunately it is a site recommended by
        > Professor Lower.
        >
        > I noticed that Lower dismisses homeopathy as quackery as part of his
        > attack on the theories of water clusters' retaining memory or
        > energetic
        > imprints ... I also noticed a typical "fair" statement toward the end
        > of Lower's polemic: "The idea that water can retain any kind of
        > "memory"
        > (as Benveniste suggested) is not supported by much evidence,
        > although a
        > recent carefully-done study
        >
        > does raise this intriguing possibility." Well thank god for
        > possibilities!
        >
        > On Quack Watch, Dr Barrett (the high priest of medical orthodoxy who
        > writes most of the hatchet pieces on this website) attacks all of the
        > following as being unscientific:
        >
        > "Each of the following approaches has at least one of the following
        > characteristics: (1) its rationale or underlying theory has no
        > scientific basis, (2) it has not been demonstrated safe and/or
        > effective
        > by well-designed studies, (3) it is deceptively promoted, or (4) its
        > practitioners are not qualified to make appropriate diagnoses. This
        > article covers traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, ayurvedic
        > medicine, clinical ecology, colonic irrigation, craniosacral therapy,
        > herbalism, iridology, macrobiotics, naturopathy, orthomolecular
        > therapy,
        > and therapeutic touch. Full-length articles on aromatherapy
        > ,
        > chelation therapy,
        >
        > chiropractic
        > , and
        > homeopathy
        > are
        > available elsewhere on Quackwatch."
        >
        > I cant vouch for all these healing modalities, but I get this very
        > strong feeling that Dr. Barrett is working on some kind of agenda. To
        > call a spade a spade, I find that Dr. Barrett is nothing more than a
        > shill for the AMA and the pharmaceutical industry. Doctor Lower
        > includes the FDA on his list of good quack watch sites. Now the AMA,
        > the FDA, and the pharmaceutical industry are all powerful
        > institutions
        > in our society, and especially in the world of healing. Each has a
        > legitimate role to play, but each over reaches that legitimate
        > role and
        > has become a political force with repressive and authoritarian
        > tendencies. For example, if the FDA is pursuing its' mission of
        > testing
        > for contamination or other unsafe practices, then it is doing its'
        > job
        > as intended. However when the FDA is enforcing regulations around
        > what
        > can be claimed in advertising, it has over stepped its' authority,
        > and
        > is acting on a political agenda of controlling the drug market.
        >
        > Professors and Doctors like to climb up on their high horses of pure
        > science and good medicine, as if these were eternal truths, and that
        > only the initiated (other profs and docs) are legitimate actors in
        > the
        > world of natural science and medicine, or healing. The arrogance and
        > racism of these people can be quite astounding. Chinese medicine is
        > dismissed as mysticism. Shamanism is dissed. After all, legitimacy
        > can
        > only flow from the purity of the fountainhead of western european
        > science and progress. (Excuse the water imagery).
        >
        > Thankfully there are scientists and healers who are more evolved and
        > think outside the box of orthodoxy and corporate conformity. Compare
        > the shifts in scientific paradigms described by Fritjof Capra in
        > "Turning Point" (http://www.fritjofcapra.net/), and the work done by
        > scientists at the Institute of Noetic Sciences
        > (http://www.noetic.org/)
        > with the quack watchers. Even my chemistry professor father, now in
        > his eighties, is executive director of IOCD, and works with a younger
        > generation of chemists to assist in bioprospecting and developping
        > biodiversity resources. (http://www.iocd.org/)
        >
        > More disclosure--I am a cancer patient, in fact I am a terminal
        > cancer
        > patient (melanoma). My oncologists (whom I respect for their
        > dedication and who are world class researchers and doctors at one of
        > Boston's best hospitals) told me last summer that there was
        > nothing more
        > they could do for me, and referred me to hospice care. Since then I
        > have designed my own regimen of herbs, supplements, and "alternative"
        > (read unblessed by te FDA) medicine. My experience has taught me that
        > even the best scientific minds, or medical minds, cannot know what is
        > true for each of us, and that each of our here on earth to deepen and
        > expand our own knowledge and understanding. For me, that knowledge
        > has meant learning more about how my body works, often through direct
        > experimentation, and it has also involved unlearning some of my
        > conditioned trust in experts.
        >
        > -David
        >
        >
        >
        > 'Where is your focus and why?'
        >
        > Masaru Emoto:
        > http://wildalaskanrose.tripod.com/cropcirclecrystal.jpg/id7.html
        >
        > Music: http://www.thecosmicstore.com/bands/wild_alaskan_rose/cd-2.shtml
        >
        > Poetry: http://v_kipp.tripod.com/collectivefutures/index.html
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
        > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/jibjabinaugural.html>
        >
        >
        > Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
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        >
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