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Re: [sl] Re: eight-fold version of the 'St Hans Cross'

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  • J Vincent Beall
    Hi, Neil. Sorry I misreported the angle of rotation. It is actually 45 degrees, but the loops on the corners of the squares are relatively small so the central
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 1, 2003
      Hi, Neil. Sorry I misreported the angle of rotation. It is actually 45
      degrees, but the loops on the corners of the squares are relatively small so
      the central complex polygon is well defined as two superimposed squares
      which have an inner octagon. I guess another way to view it would be to say
      that the design is composed of eight 45 degree triangles appended to an
      octagon with a loop at the 90 degree angle of each.

      I don't think the movie is historical at all, its a fantasy for a youg
      audience about the slaying of a dragon. The movie is best known for the
      dragon which was created through special effects by Industrial Light and
      Magic. Most of the actors are Brittish. Galen is the student of magic, and
      anti-hero of the film, who must take on the job of slaying the dragon after
      his master, played by actor Ralph Richardson, is killed.

      (I will post a further comment in reply to you other post)

      Vincent


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Neil Fernandez" <neil@...>
      To: <sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:59 AM
      Subject: [sl] Re: eight-fold version of the 'St Hans Cross'


      > In message <004301c2f803$3b7a3410$997c21a2@Inspironone>, J Vincent Beall
      > <vincent@...> writes
      >
      > >> I wondered whether anyone on the list had come across a symbol that
      > >> might be described as an eight-fold version of what's known in Germany
      > >> etc. (in fourfold form) as the St Hans (i.e. St John the Baptist's)
      > >> Cross and to Mac users as the symbol on the 'command' key.
      > >> See <http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/25/2518.html>.
      > >
      > >There is doubled version of this symbol shown on the smock that Galen
      wears
      > >in the opening scene of the film "Dragonslayer". The square with looped
      > >corners is duplicated upon itself after having been rotated 90 degrees.
      The
      > >symbol is emroidered into the 'robe'. I had wondered where the symbol
      > >originated, it seemed a combination of celtic knot design and the
      Buddhist
      > >eightfold motif.
      >
      > Many thanks for this info. Apparently the four-fold symbol also has
      > kabbalistic significance and was used by the Vikings.
      >
      > The rotation of a four-fold design by 45 degrees, although not exactly
      > what appears on the coin, is interesting, reminiscent of various
      > Templar/Maltese-type crosses.
      >
      > Also on the 4+4 theme, comparison of the coin design itself with Sam
      > Loyd's donkey game is neat - there is a sort of 'vase and faces' effect
      > where you can look at it as including four pairs, say AB CD EF GH, and
      > then as containing four pairs, BC DE FG HA.
      >
      > Is Galen in the film based on the historical Galen?
      >
      > The looping at the corners in the St Hans Cross is also redolent of the
      > tacking of a ship :-)
      >
      > Neil
      >
      > --
      > Neil Fernandez
      >
      > Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
      > http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
      >
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      >
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      >
    • J Vincent Beall
      Well, it is a bit difficult for me to see, but it seems that the loops which are large in the design are attached only to an octagon made of eight curved
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 1, 2003
        Well, it is a bit difficult for me to see, but it seems that the loops which
        are large in the design are attached only to an octagon made of eight curved
        edges. If that is the case this would be a signifcant difference, I would
        think. BTW, what is your main interest in the symbol, and which form of the
        symbol is important?

        Vincent


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Neil Fernandez" <neil@...>
        To: <sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:27 AM
        Subject: [sl] Re: eight-fold version of the 'St Hans Cross'


        > I wrote:
        >
        > >The rotation of a four-fold design by 45 degrees, although not exactly
        > >what appears on the coin
        >
        > Hi Vincent,
        >
        > I typed too hastily - the design from the film sounds very similar
        > indeed to the design on the coin. See image below. The details of the
        > design on the coin itself can be hard to make out because of whatever
        > they have done to make it visible only at a slant.
        >
        > Neil
        >
        >
        > Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
        > http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
        >
        > To UNsubscribe, send email to:
        > unsubscribe-sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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        >
        > --
        > Neil Fernandez
        >
      • Neil Fernandez
        n message , J Vincent Beall writes ... Difficult for me to see too, and I am still not sure
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 1, 2003
          In message <002301c2f847$36456840$047c21a2@Inspironone>, J Vincent Beall
          <vincent@...> writes

          >Hi, Neil. Sorry I misreported the angle of rotation. It is actually 45
          >degrees, but the loops on the corners of the squares are relatively small so
          >the central complex polygon is well defined as two superimposed squares
          >which have an inner octagon. I guess another way to view it would be to say
          >that the design is composed of eight 45 degree triangles appended to an
          >octagon with a loop at the 90 degree angle of each.

          >>>Well, it is a bit difficult for me to see, but it seems that the
          >>>loops which are large in the design are attached only to an octagon
          >>>made of eight curved edges. If that is the case this would be a
          >>>signifcant difference, I would think. BTW, what is your main interest
          >>>in the symbol, and which form of the symbol is important?

          Difficult for me to see too, and I am still not sure whether there are
          supposed to be four separate two-twirl parts (see top left sketch in
          enclosed file), or whether all of the twirls are connected with each
          other (top right).

          If I understand right, the symbol in the film is more like the
          bottom-left sketch, containing an octogram
          (<http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/27/2727.html>)
          with tacking-like twirls at the outer vertices. The twirls suggest some
          idea of travelling around the pattern I think, perhaps with two
          substances or whatever flowing around the respective squares. Without
          the twirls the symbol is used as a sigil, corresponding to Mercury. It
          also appears related to the shape of the badge of the Order of the
          Garter. The garter itself as shown on the badge may have some
          correspondence with the design within the twirl pattern. (The Garter
          Principal King of Arms sits on the Committee that recommends coin
          designs in the UK).

          There is supposed to be a correspondence between the twirl pattern and
          iron, since the central part of the coin and surrounding rings were
          designed to correspond respectively to the ages of iron, industry,
          silicon, and the internet.

          At the moment my interest is in studying the form of the symbol that
          appears on the coin, although as usual I am doing some serious
          'pafnutying' :-) See <http://www.doyletics.com/_arj1/thread.htm>.

          In a delicious coincidence, having recently discovered Philip Davis's
          book about 'pafnutying' ('The Thread') when myself trying to find the
          background to the mathematician Chebyshev's having the very rare first
          name 'Pafnuty', I learnt today that there is a similarly-themed book
          (Robert Merton's 'On the Shoulders of Giants') about the phrase
          'Standing on the Shoulders of Giants' that appears around the edge of
          the above-mentioned version of the two-pound coin, a phrase attributed
          to Newton but which dates back at least to Bernard of Chartres.

          Re. the Merton book: <http://www.whis.net/2002/08/25.html>
          And irresistibly it has one of those twirls on its cover :-)

          Neil
        • J Vincent Beall
          ... Yes, that is the symbol, the one that you sketched. It is interesting that the basic prototype shown at www.symbols.com states that it is a symbol meaning
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 1, 2003
            > If I understand right, the symbol in the film is more like the
            > bottom-left sketch, containing an octogram
            > (<http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/27/2727.html>)
            > with tacking-like twirls at the outer vertices.

            Yes, that is the symbol, the one that you sketched. It is interesting that
            the basic prototype shown at www.symbols.com states that it is a symbol
            meaning fortress. They don't provide any sources though which is a bit
            disappointing. I wonder if it is an ancient Babylonian symbol of any kind...

            Vincent

            PS good luck on your "Pafnuty-ing" ;o)


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Neil Fernandez" <neil@...>
            To: <sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:23 AM
            Subject: [sl] Re: eight-fold version of the 'St Hans Cross'


            > In message <002301c2f847$36456840$047c21a2@Inspironone>, J Vincent Beall
            > <vincent@...> writes
            >
            > >Hi, Neil. Sorry I misreported the angle of rotation. It is actually 45
            > >degrees, but the loops on the corners of the squares are relatively small
            so
            > >the central complex polygon is well defined as two superimposed squares
            > >which have an inner octagon. I guess another way to view it would be to
            say
            > >that the design is composed of eight 45 degree triangles appended to an
            > >octagon with a loop at the 90 degree angle of each.
            >
            > >>>Well, it is a bit difficult for me to see, but it seems that the
            > >>>loops which are large in the design are attached only to an octagon
            > >>>made of eight curved edges. If that is the case this would be a
            > >>>signifcant difference, I would think. BTW, what is your main interest
            > >>>in the symbol, and which form of the symbol is important?
            >
            > Difficult for me to see too, and I am still not sure whether there are
            > supposed to be four separate two-twirl parts (see top left sketch in
            > enclosed file), or whether all of the twirls are connected with each
            > other (top right).
            >
            > If I understand right, the symbol in the film is more like the
            > bottom-left sketch, containing an octogram
            > (<http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/27/2727.html>)
            > with tacking-like twirls at the outer vertices. The twirls suggest some
            > idea of travelling around the pattern I think, perhaps with two
            > substances or whatever flowing around the respective squares. Without
            > the twirls the symbol is used as a sigil, corresponding to Mercury. It
            > also appears related to the shape of the badge of the Order of the
            > Garter. The garter itself as shown on the badge may have some
            > correspondence with the design within the twirl pattern. (The Garter
            > Principal King of Arms sits on the Committee that recommends coin
            > designs in the UK).
            >
            > There is supposed to be a correspondence between the twirl pattern and
            > iron, since the central part of the coin and surrounding rings were
            > designed to correspond respectively to the ages of iron, industry,
            > silicon, and the internet.
            >
            > At the moment my interest is in studying the form of the symbol that
            > appears on the coin, although as usual I am doing some serious
            > 'pafnutying' :-) See <http://www.doyletics.com/_arj1/thread.htm>.
            >
            > In a delicious coincidence, having recently discovered Philip Davis's
            > book about 'pafnutying' ('The Thread') when myself trying to find the
            > background to the mathematician Chebyshev's having the very rare first
            > name 'Pafnuty', I learnt today that there is a similarly-themed book
            > (Robert Merton's 'On the Shoulders of Giants') about the phrase
            > 'Standing on the Shoulders of Giants' that appears around the edge of
            > the above-mentioned version of the two-pound coin, a phrase attributed
            > to Newton but which dates back at least to Bernard of Chartres.
            >
            > Re. the Merton book: <http://www.whis.net/2002/08/25.html>
            > And irresistibly it has one of those twirls on its cover :-)
            >
            > Neil
            >
            >
            > Topics suitable for discussion in this e-list can be found at:
            > http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html
            >
            > To UNsubscribe, send email to:
            > unsubscribe-sacredlandscapelist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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            >
            >


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            >
            > --
            > Neil Fernandez
            >
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