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Re: [sacredlandscapelist] Re: Sacread Space & Geometry & Tarot & Magic Octahedrons

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  • Alexandre Weber
    To Leo Gilles Wonderful site you have, plenty of very interisting informantions, I look at your page http://trigrammaton.adahost.com and the way you deal with
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 2, 2000
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      To Leo Gilles

      Wonderful site you have, plenty of very interisting informantions, I look at
      your page http://trigrammaton.adahost.com and the way you deal with the
      attribuitons to the solar sings to the trigrans differ of mine, as you know
      , there is lots of ways to assign the Zodiacal sings to the edges,in the
      book amusements in mathematics, by H. E. Dudeney , on page 70 you can find
      the problem n. 245- "Look here "said the professor to his colleague, "I have
      been watching that fly on the octahedron, and it confines its walks entirely
      to the edges. What can be its reason for avoiding the sides?"
      "" Perhaps it is trying to solve some route problem", suggested the
      other. "Supposing it to start from the top point, how many different routes
      are there by which it may walk over all the edges, without ever doing twice
      along the same edge in any route? The solution is "Though we cannot really
      see all the sides of the octahedron at once, we can make a projection of it
      ..... And the number of different routes is just 1,488, counting the reverse
      way of any route as different."


      You wrote:

      Could you elaborate on the edges you assign to "solely the Tarot
      trumps"? Since I devised the Magic Octahedron, I follow your account
      of the 12 edges as the signs, but you lost me with the interior
      toothpicks and their attribution, as well as the 'non-elements'. What
      exactly are these?
      To see my own account of this octahedron, see the section
      on 'Modelability of Trigrammaton'at the following:
      http://trigrammaton.adahost.com

      Chris wrote:

      Incidentally, I am justifying posting this here under the premise that
      sacred landscapes are meaningful because they are places we communicate with
      our gods, and that one of the things I have been trying to do is to
      understand more fully how it is we communicate, i.e. what codes-- or
      patterns if you prefer, are inherent/hidden in our language and lore.

      It will be a pleasure if she let me use their words as mine. And, anyway,
      what is a sacred space?

      In the answer to Mr. Leo , I 'd like to start with the begning. so before
      starting naming the faces, the edges ... I think about the primitives
      qualities ( hot, cold, moist, dry) whith springs the four elements - Fire,
      Water, Air and Earth- then i assign for each one of the four equilateral
      triangles that make the octahedron one element and to the six corners the
      six Zodiacal planets , begining with Saturn and finishing with the moon, so
      i have three axis: Saturn - Moon, Jupiter - Mercury and Mars -Venus ( the
      Sun in the center).

      triangle 1 ( face n. 1) - Fire : Aries ( Saturn to Mars), Lion(Mars to
      Jupiter) , Sagittarius (Saturn to Jupiter);

      triangle 2 (face n. 2) - Water : Cancer ( Moon to Jupiter), Scorpio
      Jupiter to Venus), Pisces ( Moon to Venus);

      triangle 3 ( face n. 3)- Air : Libra ( Saturn to Venus), Aquarius ( Venus to
      Mercury), Gemini ( Saturn to Mercury);

      triangle 4 (face n. 4)- Earth : Capricornus ( Moon to Mercury), Taurus
      Mercury to Mars), Virgo ( Moon to Venus).

      When you join these four triangles to do the octahedron you get the eight
      triangular faces of the solid, the four new triangular faces are made by one
      edge of each triangle, as you have four triangles and only need three to do
      a new face one element and its Zodiacal tripliciti is not presente in the
      edges of that face, the tripliciti of this element is present in the
      opposite face witch i call by the element, so the opposite face of the
      element is the Non-element face. So we have:

      Fire ( face 1) opposite Non-fire (face 8)

      Water ( face 2) opposite Non-Water ( face 7)

      Air ( face 3) opposite Non-Air ( face 6)

      Earth ( face 4 ) opposite Non- Earth ( face 5 )

      The numeration of the non-elements faces i get from the tradittion to give
      the biggest add value to the opposite faces of the solids as you can find in
      the hexahedrom ( Dice) where the opposite face always sum 7. In the other
      hand, the order of the sings that i assing to the edges respect the Zodiacal
      tradittion and the elements too : Fire with Aries the first cardinal , Water
      with Cancer the second cardinal, Air with Libra the third cardinal and Earth
      with Capricornus the fourth cardinal.

      The new faces are:

      Non-Fire (face 8 ) - Capricornus ( Moon - Mercury), Aquarius ( Venus -
      Mercury), Piscis ( Moon - venus);

      Non-Water ( face 7 ) - Aries ( Saturn - Mars), Taurus ( Mars - Mercury),
      Gemini ( Saturn- Mercury);

      Non-Air ( face 6 ) - Cancer ( Jupiter - Moon), Leo ( Jupiter - Mars), Virgo
      ( Moon - Mars);

      Non-Earth ( face 5) - Libra ( Saturn - Venus), Scorpio ( Jupiter - Venus),
      Sargittarius ( Saturn- Jupiter).

      If you look the octahedron in a top view witch one corner in the center and
      the others four corners doing a square you are going to have six squares one
      for each planet:

      Square of Saturn made by the faces : 1 - 3 - 5 - 7

      Square of Jupiter made by the faces : 1 - 2 - 5 - 6

      Square of Mars made by the faces : 1 - 4 - 6 - 7

      Square of Venus made by the faces : 2 - 3 - 5 - 8

      Square of Mercury made by the faces : 3 - 4 - 7 - 8

      Square of Moon made by the faces : 2 - 4 - 6 - 8

      You can note that the Venus Square is made by the numbers 2 - 3 - 5 - 8 this
      sequence is the Fibonacci serie with originates the golden mean. In this
      way we find the square of Venus give birth to the number of life and beauty,
      I can imagine the others squares are significants too ( Saturn the odds,
      Moon the evens, maybe Mars the ugly ...:).

      The toothpicks i used because they are small wood sticks easy available, as
      the octahedron is a 3 dimension object the complexity to visualise and
      undertand the relationships are greater than a figure of 2 dimention. When
      you add a dimention the complexity increase enormously. So i used the
      toothpicks , temporaly, inside my octahedrom to facilitate the visualisation
      of the Domus, their properties and relationships. Anyway, these lines are
      there all the time, if you spin the octahedron in one vertice you can
      visualise the line that join the opposites corners, or, if you submerge the
      octahedron in water with soap, then you are going to see a formation of a
      bubble inside constructing the eight Domus .

      The edges that i solely assign to the Tarot trumps is the most delicate
      issue and í quote Mike here "A lot of this is new to me , and I'm sill
      fubling with how best to present it all". In first place I chose the Tarot
      trumps because they are authentic simbols , that is, magical operations,
      mentals, psychics and morals, wich risen notions , ideas, aspirations and
      new feelings , with means they deserve one activity deeper than the study
      and intectual explication.

      So, what I'm going to put here come from my researchs, but I don't belive
      they are 100% right, in this way I will appreciate any constructive
      critisism, or verification of this stuff.

      Sun - Saturn - XI - Lust

      Sun - Jupiter - X - Fortune

      Sun - Mars - XIII - Death

      Sun -Venus - XII - The Hanged Man

      Sun - Mercury - XV - The Devil

      Sun - Moon -XIV - Art


      Any help here? More Confusion? Both?

      The follow I search in the net and I think is pertinent.

      THE SYLPHS

      While the sages said that the fourth class of elementals, or sylphs,
      lived in the element of air, they meant by this not the natural
      atmosphere of the earth, but the invisible, intangible, spiritual
      medium -- an ethereal substance similar in composition to our
      atmosphere of the earth, but far more subtle. In the last discourse of
      Socrates, as preserved by Plato in his Phaedo, the condemned
      philosopher says:

      "And upon the earth are animals and men, some in a middle region,
      others {elementals} dwelling about the air as we dwell about the sea;
      others in islands which the air flows round, near the continent; and
      in a word, the air is used by them as the water and sea are by us, and
      the ether is to them what the air is to us. Moreover, the temperament
      of their seasons is such that they have no disease {Paracelsus
      disputes this}, and live much longer than we do, and have sight and
      hearing and smell, and all the other senses, in far greater
      perfection, in the same degree that air is purer than water or the
      ether than air. Also they have temples and sacred places in which the
      gods really dwell, and they hear their voices and receive their
      answers, and are conscious of them and hold converse with them, and
      they see the sun, moon, and stars as they really are, and their other
      blessedness is of a piece with this." While the sylphs we believed to
      live among the clouds and in the surrounding air, their true home was
      upon the tops of mountains.

      It is believed that the sylphs, salamanders, and nymphs had much to do
      with the oracles of the ancients; that in fact they were the ones who
      spoke from the depths of the earth and from the air above.

      The sylphs sometimes assume human form, but apparently for only short
      periods of time. Their size varies, but in the majority of cases they
      are no larger than human beings and often considerably smaller. It is
      said that the sylphs have accepted human beings into their communities
      and have permitted them to live there for a considerable period; in
      fact, Paracelsus wrote of such an incident, but of course it could not
      have occurred while the human stranger was in his physical body.

      By some the muses of the Greeks are said to have been sylphs, for
      these spirits are said to gather around the mind of the dreamer, the
      poet, and the artist, and inspire him with their intimate knowledge of
      the beauties and workings of Nature. To the sylphs were given the
      eastern corner of creation. Their temperament is mirthful, changeable,
      and eccentric. The peculiar qualities common to men of genius are
      supposedly the result of the cooperation of sylphs, whose aid also
      brings with it the sylphic inconsistency. The sylphs labor with the
      gases of the human body and indirectly with the nervous system, where
      their inconstancy is again apparent. They have no fixed domicile, but
      wander about from place to place -- elemental nomads ,invisible but
      ever-present powers in the intelligent activity of the universe.



      This is a good book on the Tarot
      Anonymous
      Meditations on the Tarot - A Journey Into Christian
      Hermeticism
      Amity House, New York, 1985, x + 658 pp, HB. First
      edition. Fine in almost fine DJ. Now O/P and scarce. A
      famous and acclaimed work of Christian esotericism,
      which went through various French and German editions
      before appearing in English. With the bookplate of Adam
      McLean, that noted authority on alchemical and hermetic
      symbolism.



      Alexandre Weber
    • CG
      ... Magic Octahedrons ... Alexander, Since your first language is obviously not English I am going to ask you to re-state what you mean by the statement if
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 2, 2000
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        ----------
        >From: "Alexandre Weber" <weber@...>
        >To: <sacredlandscapelist@egroups.com>
        >Subject: Re: [sacredlandscapelist] Re: Sacread Space & Geometry & Tarot &
        Magic Octahedrons
        >Date: Mon, Oct 2, 2000, 4:30 PM
        >

        >Chris wrote:
        >
        >Incidentally, I am justifying posting this here under the premise that
        >sacred landscapes are meaningful because they are places we communicate with
        >our gods, and that one of the things I have been trying to do is to
        >understand more fully how it is we communicate, i.e. what codes-- or
        >patterns if you prefer, are inherent/hidden in our language and lore.
        >
        >It will be a pleasure if she let me use their words as mine. And, anyway,
        >what is a sacred space?


        Alexander,

        Since your first language is obviously not English I am going to ask you to
        re-state what you mean by the statement "if she let me use their words as
        mine". As it is that is an undecipherable remark. If, however, you are
        implying I used someone's words as my own, I suggest you reply to me off the
        list.

        As for what a "sacred space" is, I must assume you have some idea if you
        have joined a list called "sacred landscape".

        -Chris



        ----------------------------------------------------------------
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        ICQ #: 52195061 / \ E-Mail: canuck@...
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      • R.Leo Gillis
        ... I look at ... thanks for looking at the site the way you deal with the ... you know ... Yes there are numerous ways to layout 12 signs on the 12 edges.
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 2, 2000
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          --- In sacredlandscapelist@egroups.com, "Alexandre Weber"
          <weber@c...> wrote:
          > To Leo Gilles
          >
          > Wonderful site you have, plenty of very interisting informantions,
          I look at
          > your page http://trigrammaton.adahost.com and

          thanks for looking at the site


          the way you deal with the
          > attribuitons to the solar sings to the trigrans differ of mine, as
          you know
          > , there is lots of ways to assign the Zodiacal sings to the edges,

          Yes there are numerous ways to layout 12 signs on the 12 edges.
          Remember though, I align these things by number first. The '4' edge
          must be opposite the '8' edge, and so on for the 6 pairs of opposite
          edges. Attributions to zodiac signs is a secondary consideration.
          One could easily align the 12 signs with the edges such that the
          polar opposite signs, Aries and Libra, Taurus and Scorpio, etc, lie
          on opposite edges. The bonus here is that you can then trace a
          single, 12-segmented line around the entire octahedron, never
          repeating a segment, and arriving back where you started. I like that
          arrangement too, but it doesn't fit with my numerical values of the
          edges.

          >
          > You wrote:
          >
          > Could you elaborate on the edges you assign to "solely the Tarot
          > trumps"? Since I devised the Magic Octahedron, I follow your account
          > of the 12 edges as the signs, but you lost me with the interior
          > toothpicks and their attribution, as well as the 'non-elements'.
          What
          > exactly are these?


          > In the answer to Mr. Leo , I 'd like to start with the begning. so
          before
          > starting naming the faces, the edges ... I think about the
          primitives
          > qualities ( hot, cold, moist, dry) whith springs the four
          elements - Fire,
          > Water, Air and Earth- then i assign for each one of the four
          equilateral
          > triangles that make the octahedron one element and to the six
          corners the
          > six Zodiacal planets , begining with Saturn and finishing with the
          moon, so
          > i have three axis: Saturn - Moon, Jupiter - Mercury and Mars -Venus
          ( the
          > Sun in the center).
          >
          > triangle 1 ( face n. 1) - Fire : Aries ( Saturn to Mars), Lion(Mars
          to
          > Jupiter) , Sagittarius (Saturn to Jupiter);
          >
          > triangle 2 (face n. 2) - Water : Cancer ( Moon to Jupiter), Scorpio
          > Jupiter to Venus), Pisces ( Moon to Venus);
          >
          > triangle 3 ( face n. 3)- Air : Libra ( Saturn to Venus), Aquarius (
          Venus to
          > Mercury), Gemini ( Saturn to Mercury);
          >
          > triangle 4 (face n. 4)- Earth : Capricornus ( Moon to Mercury),
          Taurus
          > Mercury to Mars), Virgo ( Moon to Venus).
          >
          > When you join these four triangles to do the octahedron you get
          the eight
          > triangular faces of the solid, the four new triangular faces are
          made by one
          > edge of each triangle, as you have four triangles and only need
          three to do
          > a new face one element and its Zodiacal tripliciti is not presente
          in the
          > edges of that face, the tripliciti of this element is present in
          the
          > opposite face witch i call by the element, so the opposite face of
          the
          > element is the Non-element face.

          Okay, I get it now, the opposite face from an Elemental face has
          three signs for the edges, none of which are that Element. That's a
          neat arrangement. I was just confused by the term 'non-element'.

          > So we have:
          >
          > Fire ( face 1) opposite Non-fire (face 8)
          >
          > Water ( face 2) opposite Non-Water ( face 7)
          >
          > Air ( face 3) opposite Non-Air ( face 6)
          >
          > Earth ( face 4 ) opposite Non- Earth ( face 5 )
          >
          > The new faces are:
          >
          > Non-Fire (face 8 ) - Capricornus ( Moon - Mercury), Aquarius (
          Venus -
          > Mercury), Piscis ( Moon - venus);
          >
          > Non-Water ( face 7 ) - Aries ( Saturn - Mars), Taurus ( Mars -
          Mercury),
          > Gemini ( Saturn- Mercury);
          >
          > Non-Air ( face 6 ) - Cancer ( Jupiter - Moon), Leo ( Jupiter -
          Mars), Virgo
          > ( Moon - Mars);
          >
          > Non-Earth ( face 5) - Libra ( Saturn - Venus), Scorpio ( Jupiter -
          Venus),
          > Sargittarius ( Saturn- Jupiter).
          >
          > If you look the octahedron in a top view witch one corner in the
          center and
          > the others four corners doing a square you are going to have six
          squares one
          > for each planet:
          >
          > Square of Saturn made by the faces : 1 - 3 - 5 - 7
          >
          > Square of Jupiter made by the faces : 1 - 2 - 5 - 6
          >
          > Square of Mars made by the faces : 1 - 4 - 6 - 7
          >
          > Square of Venus made by the faces : 2 - 3 - 5 - 8
          >
          > Square of Mercury made by the faces : 3 - 4 - 7 - 8
          >
          > Square of Moon made by the faces : 2 - 4 - 6 - 8
          >

          I'd have to say that these numbers don't mean a whole lot, since you
          arbitrarily numbered the faces to begin with. You might just as well
          have given the faces the names of the 6 colors of the spectrum, (with
          green in the center, I suppose)


          > if you spin the octahedron in one vertice you can
          > visualise the line that join the opposites corners, or, if you
          submerge the
          > octahedron in water with soap, then you are going to see a
          formation of a
          > bubble inside constructing the eight Domus .

          I like the soap-bubble idea. I have a Zometool that is really good
          for making bubbles inside of geometric figures. You might want to get
          one of these; they're sturdier than toothpicks. Search the web
          for 'zometool', if you're interested.


          >
          > The edges that i solely assign to the Tarot trumps is the most
          delicate
          > issue
          (snipped)
          > So, what I'm going to put here come from my researchs, but I don't
          > belive
          > they are 100% right, in this way I will appreciate any constructive
          > critisism, or verification of this stuff.
          >
          > Sun - Saturn - XI - Lust
          >
          > Sun - Jupiter - X - Fortune
          >
          > Sun - Mars - XIII - Death
          >
          > Sun -Venus - XII - The Hanged Man
          >
          > Sun - Mercury - XV - The Devil
          >
          > Sun - Moon -XIV - Art
          >
          >
          > Any help here? More Confusion? Both?
          >
          > Alexandre Weber

          Well, you COULD just use the planetary cards of the Tarot for this,
          although I suppose that they are more rightly placed on the six
          corners, and the center. You seem to have used a more free-
          associative scheme. Whatever helps you to utilize these symbols is
          certainly valid. One note though; if you wanted to be a 'completist',
          it would seem that you could use 12 Tarot cards for the edges, 6 for
          the interior lines, for a total of 18, leaving you 4 trumps left
          over; the Sun in the center, and the 3 Elements (Fool, Hanged Man,
          Judgment) as representatives of the three major axes of the figure.
          Just an idea.

          LITL
          R.Leo Gillis
        • Alexandre Weber
          Thanks to all for the kindly comments and help in my research, first I d like to apologize for my English mistakes. I was trying to say when I quote Chris I
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 2, 2000
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            Thanks to all for the kindly comments and help in my research, first I'd
            like to apologize for my English mistakes. I was trying to say when I quote
            Chris "I use someone's words as mine" and not what I wrote , I think many
            ortographics errors won't occurs if my editor could be set to correct the
            English language, but for a reason I didn't discover yet, I can't change
            from Portuguese to English.


            On the other hand, i'd like to put my two cents in the issue of crystals,
            specially the ones with octahedron's structure. The most remarkable is the
            Diamond with very particular features, the information was gathered at :

            http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/elements/diamond/diamond.htm

            >Diamond is the ultimate gemstone, having few weaknesses and many strengths.
            It is well known that Diamond is the hardest substance found in nature, but
            few people realize that Diamond is four times harder than the next hardest
            natural mineral, corundum (sapphire and ruby).

            >In terms of it's physical properties, diamond is the ultimate mineral in
            several ways:

            >Hardness: Diamond is a perfect "10", defining the top of the hardness
            scale.

            >Clarity: Diamond is transparent over a larger range of wavelengths (from
            the ultraviolet into the far infrared) than is any other substance

            >Thermal Conductivity: Diamond conducts heat better than anything - five
            times better than the second best element, Silver!

            >Melting Point: Diamond has the highest melting point (3820 degrees Kelvin)!

            >Lattice Density: The atoms of Diamond are packed closer together than are
            the atoms of any other substance! Diamond is a polymorph of the element
            carbon.

            >Graphite is another polymorph. The two share the same chemistry, carbon,
            but have very different structures and properties. Diamond is hard, Graphite
            is soft (the "lead" of a pencil). Diamond is an excellent electrical
            insulator, Graphite is a good conductor of electricity. Diamond is the
            ultimate abrasive, Graphite is a very good lubricant. Diamond is
            transparent, Graphite is opaque. Diamond crystallizes in the Isometric
            system and graphite crystallizes in the hexagonal system.

            >Somewhat of a surprise is that at surface temperatures and pressures,
            Graphite is the stable form of carbon. In fact, all diamonds at or near the
            surface of the Earth are currently undergoing a transformation into
            Graphite. This reaction, fortunately, is extremely slow.

            >Crystal Habits include isometric forms such as cubes and octahedrons,
            twinning is also seen.


            Another fact that cath my attencion in the crystal's issue is the way deep
            earthquakes occurs, the main reason are the change of the crystals of
            Olivin by the action of hight temperature and pressure in Espinelio and
            then in Peroviskite with crystallizes in isometric way forming an octahedron
            crystal. Deep earthquakes can promoting great changes in earth surfaces.

            As Man is a Carbon based life form, i'm going to make some very
            speculative's hipotesis, so this post is a continuation to some ideas (the
            Domus, Elemental, Zodiacal and Tarot attributions ) which may, if ultimately
            found to be valid, offer useful new perspectives on the practical use of the
            octahedron as a vehicle of the Sacred, a means of reaching the ONE behind
            appearances.

            hypothesis one: The use of the octahedron as a vehicle can make changes in
            our brain, in the memory's crystal protein and in the way we think;

            hypothesis two: This changes can be benefited from the properties of the
            octahedron's form;

            hypothesis three: Fron this changes and new powers anyone can reach
            directely the Sacred and the One.

            It isn't a easy task, but what is the purpose of a Sacred Place anyway?

            Of course I can't elaborate all of this by myself, so I will drain from ALL
            others fonts I could find, and specially from the posts of this list and
            put a salt here and there .

            About hypothesis one, i will start with a strange property of the human
            perception that is easely checked by anyone: The maximum number of things
            that can be perceived by human mind , easely at the same time , without
            reasoning is Six, so when i constructed the domus inside the octahedron i
            put six things in a special way of correlation [ three Tarot trumps and
            three Zodiacal signs] and in a easy way of perception. so at least i made a
            mnemonic artifact, similar to the ones finded in the book The Art of Memory
            by Frances Yates, with eight Domus ( or Loci).

            Now i will quote (my translation from Portuguese) from a article of
            Nature's Magasine august/2000 - Karin Nader et all:"The memorys are keep in
            a extremely instable chemical soup. The files , until now have as stables,
            are, by the new theory, like delicade crystals (protein crystals) ,
            modificated or broken with facilty.... They say that the long time memory
            is what the chemists call Labile, that mens instable. Worst than that, it
            deserves to be rebuilted. In this way, each time one thing is remembered
            can't be simplesly returned to the memory file. It must be rewrited in the
            chemical code used by the brain. Also clain , a traumatic memory could
            be reactivate by a specialist and begin instable."

            So as the Human body and the Diamond are made with Carbon ( this is the
            new name for the element Earth from the alchemists) and when the Earth get
            a octahedron shape it starts a transformation , make sense for me, to build
            Sacred Spaces, like cathedrals [ Rene Guenon speak about 'Fundation Stone'
            and 'Temple Sstone" ] , temples, ring, the Domus ( as i set in the previous
            post , inside a octahedron totally interconected, with the external edges
            assingns to the Zodiacal sings, and the internal ones to the Tarot Trumps -
            see the new three atributions to the numbers of the faces) resambling a
            octahedron
            shape and make possible the identification of the humam mind, by meditation
            or a ritual, with the form. So by similarity the many strenghts of the
            octahedron's form could be assimilated ( or any other intrinsec operation)
            for our body, mind, soul, spirit, DNA, memory's protein,etc... and a
            transformation is made possible - simbolical death, ressurection,
            enlightment, etc... - . Of course, this is the most delicate issue of the
            argumentation, this is a internal body work .

            At the end i will post some articles i get in a Caos Astrological Site that
            corroborate to this argumentation. I feell that Fractal, atractors, Caos
            are Key words in this domain.

            By the way, the four non-elements faces of the octahedron, can be easely
            associatade with the four seasons by the zodiacal singns assigned to the
            edges, in this way we have:

            Spring - Aries , Taurus, Gemini; - no-water face #1 opposite water face #8

            Summer - Cancer, Leo, Virgo; - no-air face #2 opposite air face #7

            Fall - Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius; - no-earth face #3 opposite earth #6

            Winter - Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces; - no-fire face #4 opposite fire #5

            This make a second manner to numerate the faces of the octahedron, the first
            i use was numbering the faces have in count the Elements - Fire #1 ,Water
            #2 , Air #3, Earth #4, the opposite faces are no-earth # 5 , no-air #6,
            no-water # 7,no-earth #8. This disposition observes the Zodiacal order of
            appearence of the Sings of the Zodiac Fire - Aries, Water - Cancer, Air -
            Libra, Earth - Capricorn.
            But , both systems of numeration when put in the natural order of the
            numbers, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8., lack in dianamic, so I think in a third order:

            Spring no-water face #1 opposite water face #2

            Summer no-air face #3 opposite air face #4

            Fall no-earth face #5 opposite earth face #6

            Winter no-fire face #7 opposite fire face #8

            All the three dispositions make some kind of compromiss, so all are
            necessary in the understand about the meditations in the octahedron.

            In the internal edges of the octahedron from the center to the vertices, i
            made i mistake when i assigned the Trumps XI and XII, the correct
            dispositions are:

            Sun - Jupiter - card X Fortune

            Sun- Venus - card XI Lust

            Sun - Saturn - card XII Hanged Man

            Sun - Mars - card XIII The Death

            Sun - Moon - card XIV The Temperance

            Sun - Mercury - card XV The Devil

            But the Tarot Trumps are 21 plus the Fool which is the wanderer, as i used
            only six cards i find i can use all the cards and make three sets of six ,
            linking the
            three first with the others eighting, in this way the three firsts are the
            dispositors of the others 18 and meaning the Divine - Human - Material or
            other correlatives three conections. In this way i'm going to have :

            Card I ruler of cards 4,5,6,7,8,9

            Card II ruler of cards 10.11.12.13, 14, 15

            Card III ruler of cards 16,17,18,19, 20,21

            This let me with three sets of cards to put in the internal edegs of the
            octahedron as i have three dispositions to the faces I get 72 places or God
            names to meditate or locate mnemonic things - 3x3=9 9x8= 72. Al of
            this locate in a simple and elegant way.

            I think with these last considerations i fulfill the goal of the three
            hipotesis.

            Apologies for the disorder. This post contains supporting material that
            has yet to be properly organised - mostly extracts from other published
            sources.

            Extracts of others posts and some comments:

            "Of the infinite forms we must select the most beautiful, if we are to
            proceed in due order, and any one who can point out a more beautiful form
            than ours for the construction of these bodies, shall carry off the palm,
            not as an enemy, but as a friend."

            "Alas, when will Time cease its flight and allow this flow to rest?
            Forms, divine and perennial forms which only wait for rest in order to
            reappear! Oh when, in what night, will you crystalize again?

            "Paradise must always be re-created. It is not in some remote Thule; it
            lingers under the appearance. Everything holds within itself, as
            potentiality, the intimate harmony of its being--just as every salt holds
            within itself the archetype of its crystal. And a time of silent night
            will come when the water will descend, more dense; then, in the
            unperturbed abysses, the secret crystals will bloom...Everything strives
            towards it's lost form..."--

            -- Andre Gide, Le Traite du Narcisse


            *>>'The Coronation Chair, distinct from the throne containing
            the Stone of Scone is placed over a precise part of a large mandala made of
            coloured stone called the Cosmati Pavement. This is now covered by carpet to
            protect [hide?] it. The king, as 'is the case also with Royal bridegrooms,
            has two "Supporters" as does the sacred king while undergoing his ritual
            death. It is hard to tell if anyone now involved in the Rite has any idea
            what they're actually doing or why. I'm sure it would not occur to the
            officiating clergy that they are practising Witchcraft in its purest
            form!'MIKE


            *>>"I want to address the story of Moses and his rod. My take on this is
            from the mythological side. For example, Joseph Campbell writes:

            *>>Take the story of the Buddha beneath the Tree of Enlightenment. The
            Buddha sat in what is called the "Immovable Spot" and a demon called
            "kama-mara" approached to threaten him. This demon is known as the Creator
            of World Illusion, but his name translates more directly as "fear of death,
            desire of
            life". As the demon approached, the Buddha touched the earth and the Earth
            Goddess reared forth from the ground and roared a thousand mad roars
            terrifying the demon and causing him to flee. That night the Buddha
            achieved enlightenment and sat in that spot for seven days and seven nights
            at which time a terrible tempest was brewing. To prevent the Buddha from
            being disturbed, the Serpent King "Muchalinda" came and enveloped him seven
            times in the coils of his folds and succeeded in protecting him.
            Graves says that in those days conception was attributed to the wind, hence
            the North Wind and Eurynome conceive the Universal Egg together. He goes on
            to say that often winds were depicted with serpent tails. Campbell equally
            says that when pictures were made of the unpicturable god it was in the form
            of a god with serpent legs.

            *>>The Sumerian name of Eurynome is Iahu and means "exalted dove", this is
            the same dove that is later attributed to Jehovah as creator. CG

            Shadows from a Sun Projection -"exalted dove", -

            Everybody can find a shadow of dove or their shape in the sun projection of
            the shadow and penumbra of a octahedron in a flat surface. It take sometime
            to find it because the patterns that appear change with the position and the
            height of the solid from the plane (I suggest for the ones who are trying to
            find then, to use
            an octahedron with edges with the sise of approximately 32 mm and whithout
            spheres in the vertices, my own is made in iron so it can drop and not
            broken). As a plus, you can find in this projections some of the figures
            made by Giordano Bruno too (Articuli adversus mathematicos) in their Book Of
            Sahadows. This is a idea i had spent few years ago in a post in this e-list,
            but at that time i didn't read Frances Yates book The Art of Memory. As a
            matter of fact, i have found correlations with the chakras and tattwas ,
            specially the 4 and 4A.




            Neural Networks
            If our brains have the power to transform our reality, then the trick is to
            learn how to re-format the brain. The aspect of the brain which is of
            primary importance here is its ability to self-organise multiple arrays of
            data and modify that data according to new experience (the ability to
            learn). How does it do that? We don't have the full answers yet, but we do
            know that the neural connections in our brains change as a result of
            learning (forming features out of apparently random data), and that these
            interconnections grow stronger in the direction of whatever it is we are
            learning (a habit is simply the creation of a neural network of feedback
            loops - the more you do it, the easier it is to do, and the more likely it
            becomes that you will do it again). In the brain, as in a computer, any
            computation requires input, process and output. In terms of real-world
            complexity, this output is continually feeding back to us in the form of a
            recurrent loop or attractor: the dialog is a two-way interactive
            transmission - fusion. Feedback loops (awareness?) carry information into
            the future.
            The Future Exists
            First in the Imagination,
            Then Will

            Mind Over Matter?
            Karl Pribram, originator of the 'Holographic Theory of the Brain', suggests
            that 'there exists in the cortex a multidimensional holographic-like process
            serving as an attractor or set point toward which (behaviour) operate(s) to
            achieve a specified environmental result'. In other words, what the mind
            conceives it tends to create. The 'resonance' between sensorial input and
            the brain is akin to a process of setting up 'resonance' between ourselves
            (as inputting) and our selection. The brain's electric impulses, ever
            transforming, attract to us what we think about all the time - because our
            thoughts are what we are constantly acting out of and upon. The more
            mentally focussed we are on an outcome, and the more material conditions we
            put into place, the more likely it is that that outcome will manifest.
            New concepts are new realities. In terms of physical neuro-chemical
            activity, your thoughts and emotions are directly linked to the production
            of neuro-transmitters which produce chemical reactions (physical changes) in
            the brain. There is considerable (incontrovertible) evidence as well that
            this process doesn't stop with the brain - thoughts and emotional states
            (psychological modalities) have the power to produce dramatic changes in the
            body. The so-called 'placebo effect' is probably the most significant
            example of this 'mind over matter' phenomenon: When control groups are given
            inert substances and told that they are receiving the actual treatment,
            their bodies respond as if they were receiving the real drug.

            Setting up Resonance
            The wearing of gemstones as amulets has a long tradition. Jyotish, the
            astrology of the Hindus, utilises the wearing of gems as a method for making
            adjustments to 'planetary energies', aparently rendering them either less
            harmful or more beneficial to the wearer. This may have some basis in fact.
            If you think about it, everything you experience as 'reality' (including
            your body and mind) is a 'dance of particles'. Our minds and bodies, as
            atomic processes, are just as open to one influence as any other. In theory
            (and it seems in practice), gems could act as 'concrete connections' (and
            starting points for the 'butterfy effect') for the mind and matter: Whatever
            we perceive we act upon (placebo) [What the Thinker Thinks, the Prover
            Proves - RAW]. By wearing a gem (or amulet, or by performing a meaningful
            gesture or ritual) we mentally focuss on the object/gesture's
            properties/qualities and consciously or unconsiously reinforce those
            qualities in our lives. The effect is very subtle, but the vibratory
            qualities of thoughts set up self-similar resonances (instantaneous transfer
            and interaction of information) in our own being and throughout the Whole.

            The Planets of Astrology represent attractors in a system of irreducible
            concepts which, when expanded and combined with reasoning, offer credible
            solutions to almost any matter.
            Chaos Creates Information
            To write any horoscope is to attempt to characterize the vast attractors.
            The System of Astrology is limitless... Astrology is a Database. Astrology
            is a symbolic language of infinite structure. Astrology is a 'transpersonal
            meme complex'. Astrology is a 'random knowledge generator'. Astrology is a
            structured approach to creativity. Astrology is as creative as you want it
            to be.

            Chaos Creates Infinite Possibilities
            The matrix below is one of my own thought tools. It's not meant to be read
            so much as contemplated and acted on over time within the context of your
            personal circumstances and planetary patterns.
            You are invited to consult it when in need of stimulation or inspiration
            for your inner explorations and outer goals. I tend to employ the strategies
            in terms of natal aspects, progressions and transits. But they may be
            applied to any planetary pattern, including synastry combinations, as
            re-minders and affirmations of what you want to achieve.

            'Creative Complexification'
            The 'unlikely' juxtaposition of ideas can make conscious the different
            perspectives you can take when considering a problem. You begin to look at
            the problem in a new way; freeing up elements to create new associations,
            new thought-forms and new solutions. It's the imaginative interaction of the
            reader with the symbols that brings about the process of Attraction and
            Emergence.

            'Nature conforms to herself'...


            and using , another time, someone's words
            i want to express my gratitude
            for book suggestions
            and for the excellent interesting posts.

            Alexandre Weber



            In the presence of so many speculations, one more may not offend.
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