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Re: [rug-fanatics] Re: anybody interested in kilims?

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  • reenied
    Could you please unsubscibe me from this list. Thanks- Loreen ... From: Joseph Burke To: Sent:
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 1, 2001
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      Could you please unsubscibe me from this list. Thanks-

      Loreen
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Joseph Burke <jburke@...>
      To: <rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [rug-fanatics] Re: anybody interested in kilims?


      > Sorry Steve if I misunderstood, but Mary did not qualify that statement at
      all, and for me it is as vacuous as me saying "An old car is generally a
      good buy." As one who has bought and sold dozens of cars in my lifetime,
      that is a totally meaningless statement, as was Mary's. In fact "old rugs"
      often have a premium attached to their price because of perceived value by
      an uninformed public, that if it's old it must be valuable which is utter
      nonsense. This same perception dominates most other areas of collectibles as
      well. Old collectibles are fine if the quality of workmanship is one which
      is rare in today's mechanized society. But this is imply not true with
      handwoven rugs which are in a renaissance period with more beautiful work
      being turned out today than ever before in history.
      >
      > I would MUCH rather have (and DO have many) gorgeous new finely woven
      Persian rugs in my home in perfect condition with rich colors and great
      luster than I would some worn out old rag which wasn't worth using as a dog
      blanket when it was new. Age is absolutely no assurance of quality... there
      were just as many junk rugs woven 100 years ago as there are today
      percentagewise, (particularly from the period where poorly developed aniline
      dyes came into popular usage) and most of them are worthless except to
      people who think they are getting some valuable just because it's old and
      worn out. As you say they are better off being cut into pillows (I have a
      few of those too).
      >
      > The focus of this rug-fanatics group appears to be mostly on the collector
      and not on the average buyer. Thus the predilection for tribal pieces, old
      worn pieces, and so on. In fact this is NOT where the average buyer's
      interests lie who is trying to decorate his/her home. My sister is such an
      average buyer and she went out and spent $1000 on a floral karastan for her
      living room which she just loves. She's not educated about rugs, styles,
      regions, and "perceived value". She just wanted a rich and colorful rug for
      her home. I recently gave her a beautiful 225 KPSI Kashan of meticulous
      crafstmanship, a beautiful new piece almost identical to one I have and just
      love myself. She absolutely adores it and gave it a place of honor in her
      home.
      >
      > Go to Home Depot on a Saturday and look at the machine made rugs section
      where you will see more poeple flipping thru rugs than in the local oriental
      rug dealer's shop. Does anyone think these people are in the market for old
      rugs? Hardly.
      >
      > Likewise the focus on tribal is largely driven by ciollectors and dealers
      who have that preference themselves, rather than the general buying public.
      Look at the machine made collections... mostly floral... and these outsell
      handmade rugs ten to one, I'll bet. Has anyone been to Bath, Bed and Beyond
      or Linens and Things lately and shopped for a bedspread? Or for that matter
      in any major department store? See any tribal looking pieces with little
      animals on them? Zip... 90% of the designs are bold floral designs with a
      few striped linear ones. Geometric designs are virtually non-existent.
      Same thing is true with wallpapers... go visit Wallpapers Plus or any of the
      large chains. Bold floral designs absolutely dominate the racks.
      >
      > Why is it that rug people think these shoppers are interested in tribal
      and geometric designed rugs? If people are decorating their homes almost
      exclusively with floral designed textiles of other forms, it makes good
      sense to me that these same shoppers would prefer a floral design rug to
      geo/tribals. I think the slowdown in sales (which I read about in AREA,
      the trade magazine, is because dealers are trying to force their own tastes
      onto modern consumers who just aren't interested in funky designs with odd
      shapes and primitive little creatures all over them. If they would look at
      the trends out there, they would show them the gorgeous and venerated floral
      designs of Esfahan, Kerman, Kashan, Qum and Tabriz and probably sell a lot
      more rugs.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Joe Burke
      >
      > On 7/31/2001 at 1:11 PM Steve Price rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      >
      >
      > >Dear Joseph,
      > >
      > >I think you misunderstood Mary. She didn't say a used rug is
      > >generally good RUG, she said it's generally a good BUY. That means
      > >it's often possible to get more bang for your buck with a used rug
      > >than with a new one. Assuming that she isn't talking about antiques,
      > >a very different category, she's absolutely right. The fact is, a
      > >moderately knowledgable person won't pay as much for an old (but not
      > >antique) rug as for a new one. Nothing she said implies that
      > >you "can sell some cheesy piece of woven junk for any price I can
      > >dream up just because it's 75 years old or something". For it to be
      > >a "good BUY", the price has to be lower than what an informed buyer
      > >would expect for that cheesy piece of woven junk.
      > >
      > >The total cost of a used rug also depends on its condition and what
      > >it would take to restore or repair it. Repair and restoration is
      > >very expensive in the USA, and anyone buying an old rug that needs
      > >more than very minor work (binding the edges, stabilizing the ends,
      > >for instance) should look into the repair cost before buying the
      > >rug. Often, the most sensible thing to do with a badly worn rug is
      > >cut it up and make pillows out of the parts that are not too bad.
      > >
      > >Regards,
      > >
      > >Steve Price
      > >
      > >
      > >--- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Joseph Burke" <jburke@i...> wrote:
      > >> Gosh I can't resist a comment here... "an old rug is generally a
      > >good
      > >> buy"??? what does that mean??? I can sell some cheesy piece of
      > >woven junk
      > >> for any price I can dream up just because it's 75 years old or
      > >something???
      > >> Come on people... I hope no one really believes that. An old rug
      > >is no
      > >> better a buy than a new rug, just because it is old... it all
      > >depends on
      > >> the quality of merchandise, the design, the talent of the weaver,
      > >the
      > >> fineness of the weave, the dyes used, the colors, the colors, the
      > >colors...
      > >> I mean to say an old rug is generally a good buy is such a
      > >generalized
      > >> statement, it really has no meaning at all.
      > >>
      > >> Sorry I had to comment
      > >>
      > >> JB
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> On 7/30/2001 at 1:17 AM mary ray rug-fanatics@y... wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> >hi there,
      > >> >an old rug is generally a good buy - however if the
      > >> >condition is poor you may not recoup your investment
      > >> >in the repairs - repairs can also devalue the item. If
      > >> >you live in a city that has a textile museum you can
      > >> >consult with one of the experts on whether you should
      > >> >pursue a restoration. I think that might be the best
      > >> >way to go. Good luck.
      > >> >--- Hedieh <hedi02@y...> wrote:
      > >> >> Hi all rug fanatics
      > >> >> Since u seem all to be experts and i am very new at
      > >> >> this, can anyone
      > >> >> tell me the approximate price of an 8 square meter,
      > >> >> 50year old,
      > >> >> Qashqai kilim?
      > >> >> This piece came to me in a very bad shape and its
      > >> >> repairs is costing
      > >> >> way more than i expected, wanna know if its worth
      > >> >> the costs.
      > >> >> by the way the name i finally chose for my website
      > >> >> is
      > >> >> "Persian Tribal Crafts"
      > >> >> mainly because out of 12 names this one got two
      > >> >> votes in the group
      > >> >> and the rest none!!!
      > >> >> Also, any advice on how much information i should
      > >> >> put in the site?
      > >> >> thanx all
      > >> >> Hedieh
      > >> >>
      > >> >>
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >=====
      > >> >Lou
      > >> >
      > >> >__________________________________________________
      > >> >Do You Yahoo!?
      > >> >Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo!
      > >Messenger
      > >> >http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • Hedieh
      ... tribal and geometric designed rugs? If people are decorating their homes almost exclusively with floral designed textiles of other forms, it makes good
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 1, 2001
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        --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Joseph Burke" <jburke@i...> wrote:

        > Why is it that rug people think these shoppers are interested in
        tribal and geometric designed rugs? If people are decorating their
        homes almost exclusively with floral designed textiles of other
        forms, it makes good sense to me that these same shoppers would
        prefer a floral design rug to geo/tribals. I think the slowdown in
        sales (which I read about in AREA, the trade magazine, is because
        dealers are trying to force their own tastes onto modern consumers
        who just aren't interested in funky designs with odd shapes and
        primitive little creatures all over them. If they would look at the
        trends out there, they would show them the gorgeous and venerated
        floral designs of Esfahan, Kerman, Kashan, Qum and Tabriz and
        probably sell a lot more rugs.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Joe Burke
        >
        Dear Mr. Burke
        What you say, must apply to the shoppers in Europe or the States. I
        have no access to collectors in Iran, here clients are all casual
        shoppers and as you mentioned, not educated in this regard. But I
        have to say, on the contrary to what you believe, I have been able to
        sell old kilims (tribal and completely geometric) much easier than a
        very precious and rare antique carpet, I assume for these reasons:
        Kilims have much lower prices
        Kilims are easier to maintain, wash and care for
        Kilims are easier to carry around, they are better gifts
        considering the small houses of today's life in packed apartments,
        kilims make better floor coverings. The plain fields and big motifs
        with mostly bright colors give the room a bigger space rather than a
        crowded floral field of a carpet with a medalion in the middle.
        Kilims match modern interiors better

        Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that kilims are generally better,
        nope, this is a matter of like and dislike, I dont want to get into
        that. I am just saying that in Iran, the new generation of shoppers
        go for kilims, and these days, rich carpets belong to traditional
        older generation. And the collectors........ I have not met any in
        Iran yet!

        Now, why do American shoppers prefer the floral carpets? As far as I
        know, the traditional American designs are mostly floral. American
        eyes must be used to the floral designs much more than the geometric.
        Also, one thing I know for sure is that the Persian carpet shops in
        the states and europe prefer to sell carpets which cost around 5000
        to 15000 to profit more and be able to make up for thier costs,
        rather than a geometric tribal piece which wont be any more than 5000
        max. If they have two sales a day, they sure prefer it to be from the
        most expensive category. So, the kilims have never been properly
        introduced and advertised in Persian rugs market, because the profit
        is not comparable to rich, silk, antique Carpets and they dont want
        their clients to choose between a kilim and a carpet, they want the
        options to be among carpets all, with minimum price difference.

        Oh,and thankyou for all your comments
        Hedieh
      • Joseph Burke
        Hi Hedieh... thanks for the Iranian perspective... Kilims are styill largely unknown in America as far as I can tell. Certainly collectors and enthusiasts
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 1, 2001
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          Hi Hedieh... thanks for the Iranian perspective... Kilims are styill
          largely unknown in America as far as I can tell. Certainly 'collectors'
          and enthusiasts know about them, but few stores around here even carry them
          and those that do have only a few and they are tucked away. I saw more of
          them on a trip to Phoenix last year than I have ever seen here.

          From what I have read the preference in western culture and certainly in
          America has been thick plush carpets... This is in direct contrast to the
          attirude in the east, as I understand it... where the maxim is "the richer
          the man the thinner the carpet" which implies of course that finely woven
          rugs are more expensive (take longer to create) and therefore cost more
          money and therefore are the province of the richer people.

          For myself I like it all. I like thick plush rugs in certain instances...
          I have no interest in standing in front of my bathroom sink barefoot in the
          morning standing on a thin hard kilim or a thin finely woven esfahan. I
          have a think plush mir there. I also love finely woven formal pieces...
          our living room has a marvelous tabriz probably 60/40% wool/silk, finely
          woven and very thin. The way the silk in the flowers and palmettes picks up
          the afternoon light is absolute breahttaking. I also have thin 450kpsi
          esfahans draped over the backs of our sofas. Across the foot of our bed
          against a plain bedspread, I have a kilim.

          In summary I think there are different rugs for different people in
          different circumstances... they are all great.

          Interesting too about the absence of 'collectors' in Iran. Not sure
          really what the term implies, but I have heard of wealthy families in Iran
          having vast holdings in fine rugs, as an investment, or way of storing
          wealth. It would certainly be interesting to go thru some of those stacks
          and see what kind of designs, styles, weaves and ages those rugs were.
          Tours, anyone?

          JB

          On 8/1/2001 at 8:10 AM Hedieh rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com wrote:


          >--- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Joseph Burke" <jburke@i...> wrote:
          >
          >> Why is it that rug people think these shoppers are interested in
          >tribal and geometric designed rugs? If people are decorating their
          >homes almost exclusively with floral designed textiles of other
          >forms, it makes good sense to me that these same shoppers would
          >prefer a floral design rug to geo/tribals. I think the slowdown in
          >sales (which I read about in AREA, the trade magazine, is because
          >dealers are trying to force their own tastes onto modern consumers
          >who just aren't interested in funky designs with odd shapes and
          >primitive little creatures all over them. If they would look at the
          >trends out there, they would show them the gorgeous and venerated
          >floral designs of Esfahan, Kerman, Kashan, Qum and Tabriz and
          >probably sell a lot more rugs.
          >>
          >> Regards
          >>
          >> Joe Burke
          >>
          >Dear Mr. Burke
          >What you say, must apply to the shoppers in Europe or the States. I
          >have no access to collectors in Iran, here clients are all casual
          >shoppers and as you mentioned, not educated in this regard. But I
          >have to say, on the contrary to what you believe, I have been able to
          >sell old kilims (tribal and completely geometric) much easier than a
          >very precious and rare antique carpet, I assume for these reasons:
          >Kilims have much lower prices
          >Kilims are easier to maintain, wash and care for
          >Kilims are easier to carry around, they are better gifts
          >considering the small houses of today's life in packed apartments,
          >kilims make better floor coverings. The plain fields and big motifs
          >with mostly bright colors give the room a bigger space rather than a
          >crowded floral field of a carpet with a medalion in the middle.
          >Kilims match modern interiors better
          >
          >Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that kilims are generally better,
          >nope, this is a matter of like and dislike, I dont want to get into
          >that. I am just saying that in Iran, the new generation of shoppers
          >go for kilims, and these days, rich carpets belong to traditional
          >older generation. And the collectors........ I have not met any in
          >Iran yet!
          >
          >Now, why do American shoppers prefer the floral carpets? As far as I
          >know, the traditional American designs are mostly floral. American
          >eyes must be used to the floral designs much more than the geometric.
          >Also, one thing I know for sure is that the Persian carpet shops in
          >the states and europe prefer to sell carpets which cost around 5000
          >to 15000 to profit more and be able to make up for thier costs,
          >rather than a geometric tribal piece which wont be any more than 5000
          >max. If they have two sales a day, they sure prefer it to be from the
          >most expensive category. So, the kilims have never been properly
          >introduced and advertised in Persian rugs market, because the profit
          >is not comparable to rich, silk, antique Carpets and they dont want
          >their clients to choose between a kilim and a carpet, they want the
          >options to be among carpets all, with minimum price difference.
          >
          >Oh,and thankyou for all your comments
          >Hedieh
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Barbara and Sam Gorden
          It is very important to know the INTENTION of the maker. For me, my fascination was always in antique tribal rugs made for the use of the tribe itself. Most
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 2, 2001
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            It is very important to know the INTENTION of the maker.  For me, my fascination was always in antique tribal rugs made for the use of the tribe itself.  Most of the other pieces, whether work-shop or tribal were made to SELL.  The first displayed the culture of its creators and for me are true works-of-art.  The above is just one man's opinion!
            Sam Gorden 
            !
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 3:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [rug-fanatics] Re: anybody interested in kilims?

            Hi Hedieh... thanks for the Iranian perspective... Kilims are styill
            largely unknown in America as far as I can tell.  Certainly 'collectors'
            and enthusiasts know about them, but few stores around here even carry them
            and those that do have only a few and they are tucked away.  I saw more of
            them on a trip to Phoenix last year than I have ever seen here. 

            From what I have read the preference in western culture and certainly in
            America has been thick plush carpets...  This is in direct contrast to the
            attirude in the east, as I understand it... where the maxim is "the richer
            the man the thinner the carpet" which implies of course that finely woven
            rugs are more expensive (take longer to create) and therefore cost more
            money and therefore are the province of the richer people.

            For myself I like it all.  I like thick plush rugs in certain instances...
            I have no interest in standing in front of my bathroom sink barefoot in the
            morning standing on a thin hard kilim or a thin finely woven esfahan.  I
            have a think plush mir there.  I also love finely woven formal pieces...
            our living room has a marvelous tabriz probably 60/40% wool/silk, finely
            woven and very thin. The way the silk in the flowers and palmettes picks up
            the afternoon light is absolute breahttaking.   I also have thin 450kpsi
            esfahans draped over the backs of our sofas.  Across the foot of our bed
            against a plain bedspread, I have a kilim. 

            In summary I think there are different rugs for different people in
            different circumstances... they are all great. 

            Interesting too about the absence of 'collectors' in Iran.   Not sure
            really what the term implies, but I have heard of wealthy families in Iran
            having vast holdings in fine rugs, as an investment, or way of storing
            wealth.  It would certainly be interesting to go thru some of those stacks
            and see what kind of designs, styles, weaves and ages those rugs were.
            Tours, anyone?

            JB

            On 8/1/2001 at 8:10 AM  Hedieh rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com wrote:


            >--- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Joseph Burke" <jburke@i...> wrote:
            >
            >> Why is it that rug people think these shoppers are interested in
            >tribal and geometric designed rugs?   If people are decorating their
            >homes almost exclusively with floral designed textiles of other
            >forms, it makes good sense to me that these same shoppers would
            >prefer a floral design rug to geo/tribals.   I think the slowdown in
            >sales (which I read about in AREA, the trade magazine, is because
            >dealers are trying to force their own tastes onto modern consumers
            >who just aren't interested in funky designs with odd shapes and
            >primitive little creatures all over them.  If they would look at the
            >trends out there, they would show them the gorgeous and venerated
            >floral designs of Esfahan, Kerman, Kashan, Qum and Tabriz and
            >probably sell a lot more rugs.
            >>
            >> Regards
            >>
            >> Joe Burke
            >>
            >Dear Mr. Burke
            >What you say, must apply to the shoppers in Europe or the States. I
            >have no access to collectors in Iran, here clients are all casual
            >shoppers and as you mentioned, not educated in this regard. But I
            >have to say, on the contrary to what you believe, I have been able to
            >sell old kilims (tribal and completely geometric) much easier than a
            >very precious and rare antique carpet, I assume for these reasons:
            >Kilims have much lower prices
            >Kilims are easier to maintain, wash and care for
            >Kilims are easier to carry around, they are better gifts
            >considering the small houses of today's life in packed apartments,
            >kilims make better floor coverings. The plain fields and big motifs
            >with mostly bright colors give the room a bigger space rather than a
            >crowded floral field of a carpet with a medalion in the middle.
            >Kilims match modern interiors better
            >
            >Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that kilims are generally better,
            >nope, this is a matter of like and dislike, I dont want to get into
            >that. I am just saying that in Iran, the new generation of shoppers
            >go for kilims, and these days, rich carpets belong to traditional
            >older generation. And the collectors........ I have not met any in
            >Iran yet!
            >
            >Now, why do American shoppers prefer the floral carpets? As far as I
            >know, the traditional American designs are mostly floral. American
            >eyes must be used to the floral designs much more than the geometric.
            >Also, one thing I know for sure is that the Persian carpet shops in
            >the states and europe prefer to sell carpets which cost around 5000
            >to 15000 to profit more and be able to make up for thier costs,
            >rather than a geometric tribal piece which wont be any more than 5000
            >max. If they have two sales a day, they sure prefer it to be from the
            >most expensive category. So, the kilims have never been properly
            >introduced and advertised in Persian rugs market, because the profit
            >is not comparable to rich, silk, antique Carpets and they dont want
            >their clients to choose between a kilim and a carpet, they want the
            >options to be among carpets all, with minimum price difference.
            >
            >Oh,and thankyou for all your comments
            >Hedieh
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Joseph Burke
            Picasso painted to sell ... so did VanGogh AFAIK... I don t think anyone argues about whether their works are art. Absolutely no reason that rugs are any
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 2, 2001
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              Picasso painted to sell ... so did VanGogh AFAIK... I don't think anyone
              argues about whether their works are art. Absolutely no reason that rugs
              are any different except in one man's opinion :-)

              JB

              On 8/2/2001 at 12:18 AM Barbara and Sam Gorden
              rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com wrote:


              >It is very important to know the INTENTION of the maker. For me, my
              >fascination was always in antique tribal rugs made for the use of the
              >tribe itself. Most of the other pieces, whether work-shop or tribal were
              >made to SELL. The first displayed the culture of its creators and for me
              >are true works-of-art. The above is just one man's opinion!
              >Sam Gorden
              >!
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Joseph Burke
              > To: rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 3:24 PM
              > Subject: Re: [rug-fanatics] Re: anybody interested in kilims?
              >
              >
              > Hi Hedieh... thanks for the Iranian perspective... Kilims are styill
              > largely unknown in America as far as I can tell. Certainly 'collectors'
              > and enthusiasts know about them, but few stores around here even carry
              >them
              > and those that do have only a few and they are tucked away. I saw more
              >of
              > them on a trip to Phoenix last year than I have ever seen here.
              >
              > From what I have read the preference in western culture and certainly in
              > America has been thick plush carpets... This is in direct contrast to
              >the
              > attirude in the east, as I understand it... where the maxim is "the
              >richer
              > the man the thinner the carpet" which implies of course that finely
              woven
              > rugs are more expensive (take longer to create) and therefore cost more
              > money and therefore are the province of the richer people.
              >
              > For myself I like it all. I like thick plush rugs in certain
              >instances...
              > I have no interest in standing in front of my bathroom sink barefoot in
              >the
              > morning standing on a thin hard kilim or a thin finely woven esfahan. I
              > have a think plush mir there. I also love finely woven formal pieces...
              > our living room has a marvelous tabriz probably 60/40% wool/silk, finely
              > woven and very thin. The way the silk in the flowers and palmettes picks
              >up
              > the afternoon light is absolute breahttaking. I also have thin 450kpsi
              > esfahans draped over the backs of our sofas. Across the foot of our bed
              > against a plain bedspread, I have a kilim.
              >
              > In summary I think there are different rugs for different people in
              > different circumstances... they are all great.
              >
              > Interesting too about the absence of 'collectors' in Iran. Not sure
              > really what the term implies, but I have heard of wealthy families in
              >Iran
              > having vast holdings in fine rugs, as an investment, or way of storing
              > wealth. It would certainly be interesting to go thru some of those
              >stacks
              > and see what kind of designs, styles, weaves and ages those rugs were.
              > Tours, anyone?
              >
              > JB
              >
              > On 8/1/2001 at 8:10 AM Hedieh rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              >
              >
              > >--- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Joseph Burke" <jburke@i...> wrote:
              > >
              > >> Why is it that rug people think these shoppers are interested in
              > >tribal and geometric designed rugs? If people are decorating their
              > >homes almost exclusively with floral designed textiles of other
              > >forms, it makes good sense to me that these same shoppers would
              > >prefer a floral design rug to geo/tribals. I think the slowdown in
              > >sales (which I read about in AREA, the trade magazine, is because
              > >dealers are trying to force their own tastes onto modern consumers
              > >who just aren't interested in funky designs with odd shapes and
              > >primitive little creatures all over them. If they would look at the
              > >trends out there, they would show them the gorgeous and venerated
              > >floral designs of Esfahan, Kerman, Kashan, Qum and Tabriz and
              > >probably sell a lot more rugs.
              > >>
              > >> Regards
              > >>
              > >> Joe Burke
              > >>
              > >Dear Mr. Burke
              > >What you say, must apply to the shoppers in Europe or the States. I
              > >have no access to collectors in Iran, here clients are all casual
              > >shoppers and as you mentioned, not educated in this regard. But I
              > >have to say, on the contrary to what you believe, I have been able to
              > >sell old kilims (tribal and completely geometric) much easier than a
              > >very precious and rare antique carpet, I assume for these reasons:
              > >Kilims have much lower prices
              > >Kilims are easier to maintain, wash and care for
              > >Kilims are easier to carry around, they are better gifts
              > >considering the small houses of today's life in packed apartments,
              > >kilims make better floor coverings. The plain fields and big motifs
              > >with mostly bright colors give the room a bigger space rather than a
              > >crowded floral field of a carpet with a medalion in the middle.
              > >Kilims match modern interiors better
              > >
              > >Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that kilims are generally better,
              > >nope, this is a matter of like and dislike, I dont want to get into
              > >that. I am just saying that in Iran, the new generation of shoppers
              > >go for kilims, and these days, rich carpets belong to traditional
              > >older generation. And the collectors........ I have not met any in
              > >Iran yet!
              > >
              > >Now, why do American shoppers prefer the floral carpets? As far as I
              > >know, the traditional American designs are mostly floral. American
              > >eyes must be used to the floral designs much more than the geometric.
              > >Also, one thing I know for sure is that the Persian carpet shops in
              > >the states and europe prefer to sell carpets which cost around 5000
              > >to 15000 to profit more and be able to make up for thier costs,
              > >rather than a geometric tribal piece which wont be any more than 5000
              > >max. If they have two sales a day, they sure prefer it to be from the
              > >most expensive category. So, the kilims have never been properly
              > >introduced and advertised in Persian rugs market, because the profit
              > >is not comparable to rich, silk, antique Carpets and they dont want
              > >their clients to choose between a kilim and a carpet, they want the
              > >options to be among carpets all, with minimum price difference.
              > >
              > >Oh,and thankyou for all your comments
              > >Hedieh
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Hedieh
              ... sure ... in Iran ... storing ... stacks ... were. ... Joseph s idea of a tour reminded me to inform you all of the biggest international trade fair of
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 4, 2001
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                --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Joseph Burke" <jburke@i...> wrote:

                > Interesting too about the absence of 'collectors' in Iran. Not
                sure
                > really what the term implies, but I have heard of wealthy families
                in Iran
                > having vast holdings in fine rugs, as an investment, or way of
                storing
                > wealth. It would certainly be interesting to go thru some of those
                stacks
                > and see what kind of designs, styles, weaves and ages those rugs
                were.
                > Tours, anyone?
                >
                > JB
                >
                Joseph's idea of a tour reminded me to inform you all of the biggest
                international trade fair of Iranian rugs (of all kind) which is being
                held annually on 29th of August in the international Trade Fair
                Center in Tehran.
                Usually all the big producers (of handwoven or machine made carpets)
                and also the dealers and exporters take part. Shop owners and dealers
                from all over the world come for this event. Ordinary shoppers too,
                who have waited for a long time, come to have a wider range of
                options. The market is so hot during the show.
                The exhibition is one week long.
                Aside from that, there are random shows during the year in different
                places too.
                So in case any of the rug fanatics was willing to head this way, do
                let me know, i can arrange for your accomodation and a complete
                carpet tour, from the basement of an antique dealer/friend to the
                weaving workshops, dye houses, the tribes themselves and the carpet
                bazar in Tehran, Esfehan and Shiraz. Please dont get me wrong, I am
                not advertising any business here, this is not what I do, but since I
                am a producer myself (a very small one who still cant afford
                participating in the International carpet fair) and have some
                acquaintances, this is something I definately enjoy doing very much
                myself.
                Hedieh
              • nomad
                ... I ... Of course, you are advertising a business here. But, if not your own business, you are doing it for the businesses of other people. that is, worse
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 4, 2001
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                  --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                  > ....
                  >Please dont get me wrong, I am
                  > not advertising any business here, this is not what I do, but since
                  I
                  > am a producer myself (a very small one who still cant afford
                  > participating in the International carpet fair) and have some
                  > acquaintances, this is something I definately enjoy doing very much
                  > myself.
                  > Hedieh

                  Of course, you are advertising a business here. But, if not your own
                  business, you are doing it for the businesses of other people. that
                  is, worse than promoting your own business (if you are not really
                  promoting your business.)

                  what you think about other so-called noncommercial sites, even
                  today's academies/universities? they are just promoting the
                  businesses of some people when they are discussing/sharing the
                  knowledge/info. They are just not aware of this or they are just
                  doing this intentionally. So, such things are a kind of cheating
                  people.

                  here is my business if anyone wants to buy any;
                  http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                • Hedieh
                  Well well well, Just because each one of us has SOME business, does it mean that we HAVE TO look at everything from a business point of view? Can t we just do
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 5, 2001
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                    Well well well,
                    Just because each one of us has SOME business, does it mean that we
                    HAVE TO look at everything from a business point of view? Can't we
                    just do something and enjoy it regardless of the profit it might
                    bring to someone somewhere?
                    You might be right. My inviting tourists might do some good for the
                    hotel they will stay in, and definately for any shopkeeper who would
                    be able to sell to these tourists, but what do we/they gain by
                    visiting workshops, window shopping or sightseeing? anything else but
                    enjoyment and pleasure, acquiring some more knowledge or making new
                    friends?
                    Do we need to be this materialistic? to the extent of accusing
                    eachother? Calling eachother CHEATERS???
                    No wonder no one does anything just for a good cause any more.... the
                    outcome of a descent act is more prabable to being accused rather
                    than a slight sense of gratitude now a days.
                    People, if you feel like I have tried to cheat you or persuade you
                    into something deceitful (is the dictation right?) please accept my
                    apologies. I think i am too unexperienced in the business world, or
                    better say too naive.
                    Hedieh

                    --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                    > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                    > > ....
                    > >Please dont get me wrong, I am
                    > > not advertising any business here, this is not what I do, but
                    since
                    > I
                    > > am a producer myself (a very small one who still cant afford
                    > > participating in the International carpet fair) and have some
                    > > acquaintances, this is something I definately enjoy doing very
                    much
                    > > myself.
                    > > Hedieh
                    >
                    > Of course, you are advertising a business here. But, if not your
                    own
                    > business, you are doing it for the businesses of other people. that
                    > is, worse than promoting your own business (if you are not really
                    > promoting your business.)
                    >
                    > what you think about other so-called noncommercial sites, even
                    > today's academies/universities? they are just promoting the
                    > businesses of some people when they are discussing/sharing the
                    > knowledge/info. They are just not aware of this or they are just
                    > doing this intentionally. So, such things are a kind of cheating
                    > people.
                    >
                    > here is my business if anyone wants to buy any;
                    > http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                  • nomad
                    I like talking while doing the business and also like doing the business while talking. Because such talk is the real talk that can make us not waste our life
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 5, 2001
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                      I like talking while doing the business and also like doing the
                      business while talking. Because such talk is the real talk that can
                      make us not waste our life in this economical system in the world.
                      So, we are doing the same here. No accusation here if i used the word
                      "cheating", not for you in particular, but for public/humans in
                      general. It "cheating" or "ability to cheat", to me, is the only
                      thing that makes humans differ from other animals. In old days, best
                      experts of cheating are religious people/leaders/scholars. Now,
                      today, their positions have been taken by academy/university
                      scholars. Am i accusing them? Of course, i am not... they too are
                      humans who differ from animals in the ability to cheat only. So,
                      cheating is not only their right of those businessmen only, but also
                      their right of those scholars who i give them as representative of
                      info/knowledge businessmen, too. I can give you many example to prove
                      my claim, but lets keep the topic in the rug area. For example, i
                      just heard (on another site) that an article in Hali magazine said
                      "the red dye in Pazyryk rug was derived from a small bug, called
                      Cochineal (sp?) insect." Now, any normal human who is normally
                      suspectable probably wonders if that claim was intentional for
                      promoting somethings/some rugs. But, thanks to them/that scholar who
                      wrote that article for promoting one of my rugs which they didn't
                      know i had. Here is a similar rug with a dye derived from the same
                      insect http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm (AA3)

                      Anyways, you shouldn't have taken personal, my posts are usually
                      addressing at the general/public. See the others, except you, have
                      accepted the truth i told and they haven't responded because it was a
                      truth. The same will happen and no one will respond to this post
                      because they know these i told in this post are also truths which no
                      one can object.

                      ps: thanks for the invitation to Iran if you also included me among
                      potential visitors. but, how will this poor nomad make money there
                      where there are many poor nomads?

                      --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                      > Well well well,
                      > Just because each one of us has SOME business, does it mean that we
                      > HAVE TO look at everything from a business point of view? Can't we
                      > just do something and enjoy it regardless of the profit it might
                      > bring to someone somewhere?
                      > You might be right. My inviting tourists might do some good for the
                      > hotel they will stay in, and definately for any shopkeeper who
                      would
                      > be able to sell to these tourists, but what do we/they gain by
                      > visiting workshops, window shopping or sightseeing? anything else
                      but
                      > enjoyment and pleasure, acquiring some more knowledge or making new
                      > friends?
                      > Do we need to be this materialistic? to the extent of accusing
                      > eachother? Calling eachother CHEATERS???
                      > No wonder no one does anything just for a good cause any more....
                      the
                      > outcome of a descent act is more prabable to being accused rather
                      > than a slight sense of gratitude now a days.
                      > People, if you feel like I have tried to cheat you or persuade you
                      > into something deceitful (is the dictation right?) please accept my
                      > apologies. I think i am too unexperienced in the business world, or
                      > better say too naive.
                      > Hedieh
                      >
                      > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                      > > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                      > > > ....
                      > > >Please dont get me wrong, I am
                      > > > not advertising any business here, this is not what I do, but
                      > since
                      > > I
                      > > > am a producer myself (a very small one who still cant afford
                      > > > participating in the International carpet fair) and have some
                      > > > acquaintances, this is something I definately enjoy doing very
                      > much
                      > > > myself.
                      > > > Hedieh
                      > >
                      > > Of course, you are advertising a business here. But, if not your
                      > own
                      > > business, you are doing it for the businesses of other people.
                      that
                      > > is, worse than promoting your own business (if you are not really
                      > > promoting your business.)
                      > >
                      > > what you think about other so-called noncommercial sites, even
                      > > today's academies/universities? they are just promoting the
                      > > businesses of some people when they are discussing/sharing the
                      > > knowledge/info. They are just not aware of this or they are just
                      > > doing this intentionally. So, such things are a kind of cheating
                      > > people.
                      > >
                      > > here is my business if anyone wants to buy any;
                      > > http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                    • Hedieh
                      Dear Nomad, I cannot resist some questions and comments here: ... Do you mean that for you its either business or wasting time??? and you always think
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 5, 2001
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                        Dear Nomad,
                        I cannot resist some questions and comments here:

                        -- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                        > I like talking while doing the business and also like doing the
                        > business while talking. Because such talk is the real talk that can
                        > make us not waste our life in this economical system in the world.

                        Do you mean that for you its either business or wasting time??? and
                        you always think business, even when your are casually socializing
                        with family and friends?!

                        > So, we are doing the same here. No accusation here if i used the
                        word
                        > "cheating", not for you in particular, but for public/humans in
                        > general. It "cheating" or "ability to cheat", to me, is the only
                        > thing that makes humans differ from other animals.

                        Really? But i remember we were taught a colorful list of differences
                        between human and animals, a list which included honesty, love,
                        responsibility,....

                        In old days, best
                        > experts of cheating are religious people/leaders/scholars. Now,
                        > today, their positions have been taken by academy/university
                        > scholars. Am i accusing them? Of course, i am not... they too are
                        > humans who differ from animals in the ability to cheat only.

                        Thank goodness that you are trying not to accuse anybody here! I
                        wonder what would you say if you wanted to!

                        So,
                        > cheating is not only their right of those businessmen only, but
                        also
                        > their right of those scholars who i give them as representative of
                        > info/knowledge businessmen, too.

                        So you mean these days being smart means being able to cheat better
                        than others. and this is our legal right? I am soooo oldfashioned, I
                        thought there still existed some common sense and morality.

                        I can give you many example to prove
                        > my claim, but lets keep the topic in the rug area. For example, i
                        > just heard (on another site) that an article in Hali magazine said
                        > "the red dye in Pazyryk rug was derived from a small bug, called
                        > Cochineal (sp?) insect." Now, any normal human who is normally
                        > suspectable probably wonders if that claim was intentional for
                        > promoting somethings/some rugs.

                        Did it ever occur to you that this piece of very true and interesting
                        information was put in that magazine just because the writer had
                        thought to share it with other enthusiasts??

                        But, thanks to them/that scholar who
                        > wrote that article for promoting one of my rugs which they didn't
                        > know i had. Here is a similar rug with a dye derived from the same
                        > insect http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm (AA3)

                        Oh, well, I think I got the answer to my last question.
                        >
                        > Anyways, you shouldn't have taken personal, my posts are usually
                        > addressing at the general/public. See the others, except you, have
                        > accepted the truth i told and they haven't responded because it was
                        a
                        > truth.
                        Well, well, well, just maybe, maybe there is this slight possibility
                        that they didn't find it worthy of their time to respond, but hey,
                        dont take things personall, right? this can be a thing in general.

                        The same will happen and no one will respond to this post
                        > because they know these i told in this post are also truths which
                        no one can object.
                        >
                        I guess we have to see about that, but for one member, i can say I do
                        object. And howcome you are so sure what you say is the truth, dont
                        they say truth is in the eye of the beholder???? (or was it just
                        beauty?) We can all be telling the truth in our own circumstances,
                        from where i stand, you perspective is way distant from the truth.

                        > ps: thanks for the invitation to Iran if you also included me among
                        > potential visitors.

                        Yes of coarse, you and every other ruggist who is interested.

                        but, how will this poor nomad make money there
                        > where there are many poor nomads?

                        Well, if you are wondering on how to make more money in general,
                        maybe a little shift of the attitude can help. and excuse me, are you
                        saying that you want to make money while you are taking a
                        tour/vacation in Iran? Wow, you are All business buddy. Good luck.
                        And, nothing personal, right?
                        Hedieh


                        >
                        > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                        > > Well well well,
                        > > Just because each one of us has SOME business, does it mean that
                        we
                        > > HAVE TO look at everything from a business point of view? Can't
                        we
                        > > just do something and enjoy it regardless of the profit it might
                        > > bring to someone somewhere?
                        > > You might be right. My inviting tourists might do some good for
                        the
                        > > hotel they will stay in, and definately for any shopkeeper who
                        > would
                        > > be able to sell to these tourists, but what do we/they gain by
                        > > visiting workshops, window shopping or sightseeing? anything else
                        > but
                        > > enjoyment and pleasure, acquiring some more knowledge or making
                        new
                        > > friends?
                        > > Do we need to be this materialistic? to the extent of accusing
                        > > eachother? Calling eachother CHEATERS???
                        > > No wonder no one does anything just for a good cause any more....
                        > the
                        > > outcome of a descent act is more prabable to being accused rather
                        > > than a slight sense of gratitude now a days.
                        > > People, if you feel like I have tried to cheat you or persuade
                        you
                        > > into something deceitful (is the dictation right?) please accept
                        my
                        > > apologies. I think i am too unexperienced in the business world,
                        or
                        > > better say too naive.
                        > > Hedieh
                        > >
                        > > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                        > > > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > ....
                        > > > >Please dont get me wrong, I am
                        > > > > not advertising any business here, this is not what I do, but
                        > > since
                        > > > I
                        > > > > am a producer myself (a very small one who still cant afford
                        > > > > participating in the International carpet fair) and have some
                        > > > > acquaintances, this is something I definately enjoy doing
                        very
                        > > much
                        > > > > myself.
                        > > > > Hedieh
                        > > >
                        > > > Of course, you are advertising a business here. But, if not
                        your
                        > > own
                        > > > business, you are doing it for the businesses of other people.
                        > that
                        > > > is, worse than promoting your own business (if you are not
                        really
                        > > > promoting your business.)
                        > > >
                        > > > what you think about other so-called noncommercial sites, even
                        > > > today's academies/universities? they are just promoting the
                        > > > businesses of some people when they are discussing/sharing the
                        > > > knowledge/info. They are just not aware of this or they are
                        just
                        > > > doing this intentionally. So, such things are a kind of
                        cheating
                        > > > people.
                        > > >
                        > > > here is my business if anyone wants to buy any;
                        > > > http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                      • nomad
                        Hedieh and others who are listening to this nomad the truth teller (or, according to Hedieh, those who are ignoring this nomad) To prevent any further
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 5, 2001
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                          Hedieh and others who are listening to this nomad the truth teller
                          (or, according to Hedieh, those who are ignoring this nomad)

                          To prevent any further bifurcation of the topic into subtopics, lets
                          focus our attention to Pazyryk rug and the claims on it (such as this
                          last claim in an Hali magazine article); that is the claim of "the
                          red dye in Pazyryk rug was derived from a small bug, called Cochineal
                          (sp?) insect."

                          Hedieh thinks because the writer had thought to share this knowledge
                          with other enthusiasts.

                          I say the writer and et al (Hali?) was most probably aiming at
                          promoting somethings/some rugs or, maybe, was just "exchanging" the
                          knowledge with money or was selling the knowledge for money as any
                          knowledgable human does. But he/she was certainly not "sharing"
                          anything. The word/verb "to share" is a part of cheating methodology
                          in this economical system, it is something related to socialism which
                          is an initial step to communism which ends up "natural communism"

                          Moreover, Hedieh accused me by saying i am ignoring social life in
                          which money plays no role. Well, Hedieh, money is everything in this
                          economical system. Right now, a Nasreddin Hoca (you call Mulla
                          Nasrudin) story and a turkic saying fit here well to tell you what
                          the life is; (remember Nasreddin stories are actually stories of
                          folks in the world for tousands of years. That is, they are filtered
                          experiences in time)

                          Here is the story:
                          -----------------
                          One of his friends asks Hoca (Mulla/Molla):
                          -Hoca, how many meters is the world?
                          At the same time, people were carrying a coffin with a death man
                          inside toward the cemetery. Hoca, by pointing the coffin by his
                          finger, said
                          -Ask him! Look, he had measured, calculated and now he is going!..
                          -----------------

                          and a turkic saying (at least, a saying from our village):
                          "olunde para dirinde para" (means both your alive and death are
                          (needs) money.) Yes, true. Passport/visas which are asked when
                          changing a country is not asked when one goes to a cemetary as a
                          death, but money is asked for, even to be buried there. The death
                          person (or his friends/relatives) in Hoca story too will be asked to
                          pay for 1-2 sq meter in the cemetery and that is what he knows now...

                          Returning to the topic "pazyryk rug and the claim about it";
                          Was the red dye in the Pazyryk rug really derived from cochineal
                          insect? How much is this truth being sold for? By the way, has anyone
                          ever heard some rugs whose some dyes were derived from human bloods?
                        • nomad
                          ... one of interesting things in such forums of such societies is that participants s responses are randomly distributed under different threads. so, i am no
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 7, 2001
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                            --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                            > Returning to the topic "pazyryk rug and the claim about it";
                            > Was the red dye in the Pazyryk rug really derived from cochineal
                            > insect?

                            one of interesting things in such forums of such societies is that
                            participants's responses are randomly distributed under different
                            threads. so, i am no exception as long as i post on such forums and
                            now doing the same. at least, mine's subject is related more.
                            anyways..

                            so, that insect is Polish cochineal which was/is (?) available only
                            in Poland or in North Europe or is it another insect as mentioned
                            here?

                            Such dyes derived from such animals/insects were being dried and were
                            being traded as dried dyes some decades ago? If such insects weren't
                            living in central anatolia region few/some decades ago and such dyes
                            were not being traded as dried particles, how possible was this rug
                            (its border of AA3*) dyed with the dye derived from Polish cochineal
                            or another insect(?)

                            Ok, 40-50 years is not enough to make an interpolation from today to
                            the date when Pazyryk rug was made, but the answer to my question
                            above would be still informative.

                            *: for AA3
                            http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                          • Steve Price
                            Huh? ... were ... weren t ... dyes ... cochineal ... to
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 7, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Huh?


                              --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                              > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                              > > Returning to the topic "pazyryk rug and the claim about it";
                              > > Was the red dye in the Pazyryk rug really derived from cochineal
                              > > insect?
                              >
                              > one of interesting things in such forums of such societies is that
                              > participants's responses are randomly distributed under different
                              > threads. so, i am no exception as long as i post on such forums and
                              > now doing the same. at least, mine's subject is related more.
                              > anyways..
                              >
                              > so, that insect is Polish cochineal which was/is (?) available only
                              > in Poland or in North Europe or is it another insect as mentioned
                              > here?
                              >
                              > Such dyes derived from such animals/insects were being dried and
                              were
                              > being traded as dried dyes some decades ago? If such insects
                              weren't
                              > living in central anatolia region few/some decades ago and such
                              dyes
                              > were not being traded as dried particles, how possible was this rug
                              > (its border of AA3*) dyed with the dye derived from Polish
                              cochineal
                              > or another insect(?)
                              >
                              > Ok, 40-50 years is not enough to make an interpolation from today
                              to
                              > the date when Pazyryk rug was made, but the answer to my question
                              > above would be still informative.
                              >
                              > *: for AA3
                              > http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                            • nomad
                              ? my whole text (some tousands of bytes) was sent to the forum just to say huh? anyways, ignore such posts. lets back to the Pazyryk rug and theories/claims
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                ? my whole text (some tousands of bytes) was sent to the forum just
                                to say "huh?"

                                anyways, ignore such posts.

                                lets back to the Pazyryk rug and theories/claims on its dyes.
                                so, has anyone arrived at any conclusion on where that Pazyryk was
                                done following the traces of that red dye derived from
                                kermes/kirmizi/cochineal/whatever it is/ insect?

                                --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Steve Price" <sprice@h...> wrote:

                                > Huh?
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                                > > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                                > > > Returning to the topic "pazyryk rug and the claim about it";
                                > > > Was the red dye in the Pazyryk rug really derived from
                                cochineal
                                > > > insect?
                                > >
                                > > one of interesting things in such forums of such societies is
                                that
                                > > participants's responses are randomly distributed under different
                                > > threads. so, i am no exception as long as i post on such forums
                                and
                                > > now doing the same. at least, mine's subject is related more.
                                > > anyways..
                                > >
                                > > so, that insect is Polish cochineal which was/is (?) available
                                only
                                > > in Poland or in North Europe or is it another insect as mentioned
                                > > here?
                                > >
                                > > Such dyes derived from such animals/insects were being dried and
                                > were
                                > > being traded as dried dyes some decades ago? If such insects
                                > weren't
                                > > living in central anatolia region few/some decades ago and such
                                > dyes
                                > > were not being traded as dried particles, how possible was this
                                rug
                                > > (its border of AA3*) dyed with the dye derived from Polish
                                > cochineal
                                > > or another insect(?)
                                > >
                                > > Ok, 40-50 years is not enough to make an interpolation from today
                                > to
                                > > the date when Pazyryk rug was made, but the answer to my question
                                > > above would be still informative.
                                > >
                                > > *: for AA3
                                > > http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm
                              • Hedieh
                                ... As far as I know and remember from our dye course books in school, the insect cochineal existed in Iran long long time ago, when the Pazyryk was woven. It
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 13, 2001
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                                  --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > lets back to the Pazyryk rug and theories/claims on its dyes.
                                  > so, has anyone arrived at any conclusion on where that Pazyryk was
                                  > done following the traces of that red dye derived from
                                  > kermes/kirmizi/cochineal/whatever it is/ insect?
                                  >


                                  As far as I know and remember from our dye course books in school,
                                  the insect cochineal existed in Iran long long time ago, when the
                                  Pazyryk was woven.

                                  It used to be found mostly in the desert area near the city of
                                  Kerman.It lived on the Cacti plants. Some say the name of the color
                                  Kermes, or kermez as the persians say, has been derived from the city
                                  name Kerman. We call the cochineal insect Kermez-daneh, which means
                                  the red grain. It still can be found in that area, but very rarely.
                                  It is considered endangered species these days, but not that anyone
                                  is doing anything to prevent it from disappearing.

                                  Nowadays, I have heard that cochineal is a habitant of the northern
                                  areas of Iran, somewhere called Sarakhs, and lives on fig trees. One
                                  thing I know for sure is that the very few natural dye houses in
                                  Iran, use cochineal which is found inside Iran. Although the price is
                                  extremely high compared to other natural dyes, this is why new
                                  carpets rarely have the original burgandy red color used in them.

                                  The cochineal issue has always been one of the arguements used to
                                  prove that Pazyryk originally has been made in Iran. I have no idea
                                  if this debate was ever settled. So what do you think folks? Does
                                  Pazyryk belong to Iran? I say yes.
                                  OOOps..... now I've said it.....
                                  Hedieh
                                • nomad
                                  ... was ... city ... One ... is ... I have no knowledge about that insect, just learning from you here. What a so rare insect is it that it has been everywhere
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 13, 2001
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                                    --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "Hedieh" <hedi02@y...> wrote:
                                    > --- In rug-fanatics@y..., "nomad" <nomad1@a...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > lets back to the Pazyryk rug and theories/claims on its dyes.
                                    > > so, has anyone arrived at any conclusion on where that Pazyryk
                                    was
                                    > > done following the traces of that red dye derived from
                                    > > kermes/kirmizi/cochineal/whatever it is/ insect?
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > As far as I know and remember from our dye course books in school,
                                    > the insect cochineal existed in Iran long long time ago, when the
                                    > Pazyryk was woven.
                                    >
                                    > It used to be found mostly in the desert area near the city of
                                    > Kerman.It lived on the Cacti plants. Some say the name of the color
                                    > Kermes, or kermez as the persians say, has been derived from the
                                    city
                                    > name Kerman. We call the cochineal insect Kermez-daneh, which means
                                    > the red grain. It still can be found in that area, but very rarely.
                                    > It is considered endangered species these days, but not that anyone
                                    > is doing anything to prevent it from disappearing.
                                    >
                                    > Nowadays, I have heard that cochineal is a habitant of the northern
                                    > areas of Iran, somewhere called Sarakhs, and lives on fig trees.
                                    One
                                    > thing I know for sure is that the very few natural dye houses in
                                    > Iran, use cochineal which is found inside Iran. Although the price
                                    is
                                    > extremely high compared to other natural dyes, this is why new
                                    > carpets rarely have the original burgandy red color used in them.
                                    >
                                    > The cochineal issue has always been one of the arguements used to
                                    > prove that Pazyryk originally has been made in Iran. I have no idea
                                    > if this debate was ever settled. So what do you think folks? Does
                                    > Pazyryk belong to Iran? I say yes.
                                    > OOOps..... now I've said it.....
                                    > Hedieh

                                    I have no knowledge about that insect, just learning from you here.
                                    What a so rare insect is it that it has been everywhere from Poland
                                    to Mexico from North Africa to, even, Konya(?)
                                    (http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm AA3 here.)

                                    Ok, i understand that the origin of Pazyryk rug (turkic or persian)
                                    has been/will be a topic of debate for a long time. I searched the
                                    info about that rug on the net and found out that all info/web sites
                                    were divided into two groups; half of them attribute it to Persia
                                    while other half claim it was a Turkic weaving. Even academical sites
                                    which must be objective are seperated into two groups. For example;
                                    this part was taken from a web site that claims it was turkic
                                    weaving:

                                    "...It was an ancient custom with the Central Asiatic Turkic peoples
                                    to bury their deads with some of their earthly belongings. In this
                                    case, the Pazyryk rug and other objects that included a saddle cover
                                    of felt and leather, felt figures of swans stuffed with goat hair, a
                                    horse harness with carved wooden ram's heads and other objects were
                                    buried with the dead person [1, p. 558-559]. Generally such organic
                                    material disintegrate in the ground over long periods of time. But
                                    this was a lucky case. The burial chamber was somehow flooded with
                                    water and then frozen solid. It remained in a frozen state for 2500
                                    years until it was discovered by Russian archaeologists. The Pazyryk
                                    carpet is at present located in the Hermitage Museum in Leningrad,
                                    Rusia.

                                    The Pazyryk carpet is made with the Turkish knot system used in
                                    carpet weaving and has horse patterns with saddle clothes which are
                                    typically Turkish. It is an ancient custom of Central Asiatic horse
                                    riding peoples to trim the manes of their horses short and even leave
                                    a few well separated clumps of mane long and standing up. Another
                                    custom is to turn the lower end of the tail hairs up and tie them in
                                    a bundle. These Turkish customs are well portrayed in the Pazyryk
                                    carpet. The culture lives today... [1] Nina Hyde and photographer
                                    Cary Wolinsky, "Wool - Fabric of History", National Geographic
                                    Magazine, vol. 173, No. 5, May 1988...."

                                    --------

                                    So, some of its characteristics tell that it was a Persian product
                                    while some of its characteristics tell that it was a Turkic product.

                                    Although i am a turk, i really don't care wherever it was from. My
                                    point here is that even scholars were seperated into two equal
                                    groups. Once again, this seperation of people/scholars shows that all
                                    the written sources, books, articles, scientific papers by scholars
                                    are biased.

                                    How can we trust these knowledgable people then? They are not seeing
                                    themselves in the mirror, but them scholars are still questioning the
                                    trustability of the rug dealers. Contradictions. contradictions.
                                    contradictions.. When scholars do contradicts they are becoming just
                                    more ridiculous.

                                    ps: how can one explain that Konya rug with age of 60-70 years old
                                    was made of that insect dye (in its borders) if that insect was not
                                    living in Konya region? http://www.geocities.com/erolby/ya/ya.htm AA3
                                    here. The answer will tell you somethings about the origin of red dye
                                    in Pazyryk rug.
                                  • kurtluv4u@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 8/13/01 8:13:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hedi02@yahoo.com ... Hi rug-fanatics! I have been reading all your mail concerning my $280- first
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 13, 2001
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                                      In a message dated 8/13/01 8:13:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hedi02@...
                                      writes:


                                      cochineal


                                      Hi rug-fanatics!

                                      I have been reading all your mail concerning my $280-  first oriental rug
                                      purchase.  I haven't done the silk tests, yet. I will do both the Clorox and
                                      the burning tests, that will prove if the rug is silk or not.  

                                      I am only certain of one thing.  The $280- rug I bought, even if it's pure
                                      silk, is not as what the best Qum has to offer.  I visited an extraordinary
                                      Oriental rug retailer on Las Olas Blvd. in Fort Lauderdale, last Friday.  I
                                      took my boyfriend Jerome to the store with me.  We were in "Rug Heaven".  I
                                      learned there by feeling and seeing what the best silk on silk fine Qum rug
                                      of the same size of the one I bought is all about.  It is of such fine
                                      craftsmanship that the one I bought is left behind into the average rugs
                                      available at retail or dealer shops.  The price on this beauty is US $3,800-  
                                      Not expensive at all, when you take into consideration the faultless
                                      craftsmanship, choice of colors, and quality of silk use in producing such an
                                      excellent art craft.  At the same dealer a Qum of the same quality and signed
                                      as well by the craftsman sells for US $30 to 35000- for carpets of 8 or 10 by
                                      12 to 15 feet.  I can't tell for sure the size of those outstanding rugs.  
                                      They are mind boggling.

                                      As to cochineal, it has been the preferred source for red in paintings since
                                      time immemorial.  Medieval reds were obtained from that beetle like insect.  
                                      And I am sure it can be dated back to the Egyptians.  The same is said about
                                      viridian green obtained from Malachite and the blues from indigoes and lapiz
                                      lazuli...and what more luxurious can we find than the earthy saffron
                                      yellows...

                                      I already bought the Oriental Carpets: A Complete Guide by Murray L. Eiland
                                      and Son. It will be soon in my mailbox.

                                      My best to you,
                                      Jorge


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