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Rug Shopping in Istanbul

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  • vintagebmw
    Hello All- I may be taking a short trip to Istanbul in October. Can anyone recommend some vendors for Caucasian rugs as well as traditional turkish rugs such
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2 11:44 AM
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      Hello All-

      I may be taking a short trip to Istanbul in October. Can anyone
      recommend some vendors for Caucasian rugs as well as traditional
      turkish rugs such as Konya, Dosemealti, etc??? I am not so interested
      in Persian designs.

      -J
    • ali avci
      Hello Friend. I am from Istanbul, i know all the dealers there, but i am in USA at the moment. If you give me a call tell me what are you realy interested i
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 2 4:57 PM
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        Hello Friend.

        I am from Istanbul, i know all the dealers there, but
        i am in USA at the moment. If you give me a call tell
        me what are you realy interested i defenetly can you
        good adresess.

        Here is my Cell Phone: 1 541 513 57 36

        Ali

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      • colin
        Please be wary of this man. I have known this Ali Avci a long time and he is not to be trusted. He is what is known as a bazaar tout who makes his living by
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 5 3:15 AM
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          Re: Rug Shopping in Istanbul Please be wary of this man. I have known this Ali Avci a long time and he is not to be trusted.  He is what is known as a bazaar tout who makes his living by befriending westerners in the Sultanhamet and Cemberlitas areas near the bazaar in Istanbul and then taking them to dealers who inflate their prices to cover his commission which he picks up later.  You will be told to make sure you mention his name – that presses the button immediately, jacking up your cost and lining his pocket.  He will also tell you that he is making nothing from these introductions.  This is not true.  Touts exist around every bazaar, as well as in large western cities; there is nothing untoward there.  

          Commission is one thing, fraud, however, is another.  And what is much more serious here are some of the scams this person has pulled off with both western and Turkish dealers, myself included.  I lost $1,500 when I was gulled into sending him the money for repairs he’d arranged.  When I arrived to pick up clients’ carpets I had to pay another $1,500 to retrieve them from the repair man because he hadn’t been paid.  The Turkish legal system is not to be trifled with and most people can’t hang around for days in police stations or lawyers’ offices when they have planes to catch.  Avci is equally happy to sting Turkish dealers by taking westerners to them, taking rugs and then never bothering to pay for them after he gets the money from the customers.  He can’t do this with larger Turkish dealers because they are wise to him and it would also be detrimental to his health.  One Turkish dealer who specialises in Turkoman pieces is still several thousand dollars out of pocket after just such a sting.  There are some truly fabulous characters in the Turkish rug world, in Istanbul and many of the provincial towns and cities, but this man is most certainly not one of them and should be avoided like the plague.

          I hope I haven’t cast a dampener on your trip but it is important you are aware of some of the perils that may beset you.  You’ll have a great time in Istanbul but if you want to buy Dosemalte buy from London warehouses or in New York, or better still, make a side trip to Konya and you will find lovely Anatolian pieces you won’t see in Istanbul – as well as the shrine of the Sufi master, Celalladin Rumi.  Have fun!

          Colin Wilde, London
        • CUNEYT YESILCAY
          Dear Sirs Madam; Unfortunately Miss Colin draw true picture of market rules here in Istanbul.There are people will come next to you friendly and take you to
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 5 10:28 AM
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            Dear Sirs\Madam;
            Unfortunately Miss Colin draw true picture of market
            rules here in Istanbul.There are people will come next
            to you friendly and take you to dealer`s shop to get
            at least %20 commission.
            If you a dealer you are welcome to visit me at my
            shop near Blue Mosque&Santa Sophia.If you need I may
            send you some of my friends name who are member of
            LAPADA&BADA and you may ask about me.But if you are a
            traveller pls ask for an appointment so I may help you
            personally.I have tribal Persian,Caucasian and
            Anatolian carpets and specialist in restoration.
            I am sure you will have good time in Turkey as many
            others do.Beside business if you need any kind of help
            you are welcome to call me at 0090-5322947148.
            One last thing;if you have any problem like Miss
            Colin did,go to police station and ask them to contact
            British Embassy,do not listen what they say to solve
            your problems.
            Kind Regards
            GADY YESILCAY
            GADY`S ORIENTAL RUGS


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          • vintagebmw
            Colin- Thanks for the heads up. I am quite familiar with bazaar touts from South America and Africa. However it is unlikely that I will have time to go to
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 7 8:12 AM
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              Colin-

              Thanks for the heads up.

              I am quite familiar with bazaar touts from South America and Africa.
              However it is unlikely that I will have time to go to visit the
              Turkish countryside and production centers. Does anyone have a more
              concrete recommendation on shops in Istanbul?

              BTW: Thanks Gady! If this trip becomes a reality, I will keep you in
              mind.

              -J



              --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, colin <rugs@...> wrote:
              >
              > Please be wary of this man. I have known this Ali Avci a long time
              and he is
              > not to be trusted. He is what is known as a bazaar tout who makes
              his
              > living by befriending westerners in the Sultanhamet and
              Cemberlitas areas
              > near the bazaar in Istanbul and then taking them to dealers who
              inflate
              > their prices to cover his commission which he picks up later. You
              will be
              > told to make sure you mention his name ­ that presses the button
              > immediately, jacking up your cost and lining his pocket. He will
              also tell
              > you that he is making nothing from these introductions. This is
              not true.
              > Touts exist around every bazaar, as well as in large western
              cities; there
              > is nothing untoward there.
              >
              > Commission is one thing, fraud, however, is another. And what is
              much more
              > serious here are some of the scams this person has pulled off with
              both
              > western and Turkish dealers, myself included. I lost $1,500 when
              I was
              > gulled into sending him the money for repairs he¹d arranged. When
              I arrived
              > to pick up clients¹ carpets I had to pay another $1,500 to
              retrieve them
              > from the repair man because he hadn¹t been paid. The Turkish
              legal system
              > is not to be trifled with and most people can¹t hang around for
              days in
              > police stations or lawyers¹ offices when they have planes to
              catch. Avci is
              > equally happy to sting Turkish dealers by taking westerners to
              them, taking
              > rugs and then never bothering to pay for them after he gets the
              money from
              > the customers. He can¹t do this with larger Turkish dealers
              because they
              > are wise to him and it would also be detrimental to his health.
              One Turkish
              > dealer who specialises in Turkoman pieces is still several
              thousand dollars
              > out of pocket after just such a sting. There are some truly
              fabulous
              > characters in the Turkish rug world, in Istanbul and many of the
              provincial
              > towns and cities, but this man is most certainly not one of them
              and should
              > be avoided like the plague.
              >
              > I hope I haven¹t cast a dampener on your trip but it is important
              you are
              > aware of some of the perils that may beset you. You¹ll have a
              great time in
              > Istanbul but if you want to buy Dosemalte buy from London
              warehouses or in
              > New York, or better still, make a side trip to Konya and you will
              find
              > lovely Anatolian pieces you won¹t see in Istanbul ­ as well as the
              shrine of
              > the Sufi master, Celalladin Rumi. Have fun!
              >
              > Colin Wilde, London
              >
            • Ivan Soenderholm
              Hi J Hali has published two guides about carpet shops, museums etc. Istanbul: The Hali Rug Guide and recently Turkey: The Hali Rug Guide The last one can be
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 7 10:15 AM
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                Hi J

                Hali has published two guides about carpet shops, museums etc.
                Istanbul: The Hali Rug Guide
                and recently
                Turkey: The Hali Rug Guide

                The last one can be ordered from Hali - but the first one can be
                found on amazon.com
                You can find a link here:
                http://www.jozan.net/rug-books/Books-search.asp?keywords=Istanbul

                Regards
                Ivan

                --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, "vintagebmw" <r502@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello All-
                >
                > I may be taking a short trip to Istanbul in October. Can anyone
                > recommend some vendors for Caucasian rugs as well as traditional
                > turkish rugs such as Konya, Dosemealti, etc??? I am not so
                interested
                > in Persian designs.
                >
                > -J
                >
              • Nathan Koets
                Mehmet Ucar in Konya is well known and trusted throughout the rug world. I ve purchased OUTSTANDING old and new pieces from him at very reasonable prices. He
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 9 4:23 PM
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                  Mehmet Ucar in Konya is well known and trusted throughout the rug world. I've purchased OUTSTANDING old and new pieces from him at very reasonable prices. He can be trusted, ask around.
                   
                  Mehmet's info:
                   
                  ipek yolu (Silk Road)
                  Mevlana Caddesi
                  Naci Fikret Sokak No:1
                  Konya, Turkey
                  TEL: (0.332) 353 20 24
                  or
                  (0.332) 352 51 90
                   
                  In Istanbul, I recommend Suat Capas at his store, SuDe in Sultanahmet.
                  (90) 212 516 54 88
                  Email: capas@...
                  Mostly antique stuff, more pricey but fair - & good quality.
                   
                  Happy hunting!
                   
                  Nathan
                • ali avci
                  Hi Collin. This is Ali... Colin... The verry first you came to my shop you had a problem with MR. Mustafa Elma who was your shepper. You had rugs waiting to be
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 9 5:57 PM
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                    Hi Collin.

                    This is Ali...

                    Colin...

                    The verry first you came to my shop you had a problem
                    with MR. Mustafa Elma who was your shepper. You had
                    rugs waiting to be sent but Mustafa was not sending
                    you because you did not want to pay for VAT. And you
                    was all must going to court against each others. Then
                    Mustafa told me to be carefull with what ever i do
                    with you because who ever Collin deals with he creats
                    a problem and blame them for some thing and Collin in
                    not a trustable at all.

                    I called Mustafa Elma and made piece between you two
                    and made Mustafa send me the rugs from Konya to
                    Istanbul. Then Mustafa told me to be carefull with
                    what ever i do with you because who ever Collin deals
                    with he creats a problem and blame them for some thing
                    and Collin in not a trustable at all.
                    Finally i made Selcuk shipping Company send you the
                    rugs. BUT.... you accused the shipping company and did
                    not want to pay them. You accused them for paying
                    customs. You accused them for not pricing the things
                    sent to you for less invoice so that you pay less
                    tex... You had many telefon conversations about this
                    prolem that you created.

                    The second problem you created to them was about the
                    12 semavers. You left 12 semavers to me and wanted me
                    to send them to you. Spossedly you was going to send
                    me the money to be paid to the man who you bought
                    semavers, tO the rug dealer Necati, Hasan Gureli and
                    others who you bought rugs from, but this took 6
                    months to send the money. After you send the money i
                    paid every one and sent you the things inkloding
                    semavers.

                    After you received the Semavers you created an other
                    problem, because you did not want to pay for the
                    shipping. You made vanted them to make you fake
                    doccoments so that you receive money from the
                    insorance company. You got mad on them because they
                    did not want to do such a thing.

                    Once you went to the noteering and asked them to help
                    you to get money from Mustafa Elma who you had
                    problems with. I was there with you. Then i asked you
                    if MUSTAFA realy owed you this money. You dold me that
                    actually Mustaf does not ove you, but you had a chaque
                    signed by him and you wanted to give problem to
                    Mustafa and that is why you was going to charge from
                    him. You offered an athorney to charge from Mustafa
                    Elma what ever was writen on cheque and you would
                    share the money with the athorney Half and half.

                    I made the athorney man understand that that was not
                    true, Mustafa did not ove you any money, still you was
                    traying to charge from him what ever was writen on the
                    cheque. This is was a cheque that was given to you for
                    the rugs that he was spossed to send you but did not
                    send you because you did not pay for the VAT and i
                    sent to you.

                    Then you told me that you would find a MAPHIA MAN and
                    give the cheque to him and make him charge this money
                    from Mustafa. I do not know the rest of the story...

                    When you send me the money to be given to the people
                    for the Samavers and rugs, you send me the maney in
                    English Starlin. When i went to the bank they did not
                    have Starlin and they asked me if it was OK if they
                    gave the money in USA dollars. I received the money in
                    dollars. But about 10 minotes after i received the
                    money from the bank i found out that the bank has
                    given me 1200 dollars more then they had to and i went
                    to the bank, told them that they made a mistake and
                    gave me 1200 Dollars extra. I gave them 1200 back.

                    Several days later you called me and asked me of the
                    reasson why i did not get the money you sent to me.
                    Then i told you that i did get the money and paid
                    every one. Then you told me that actually you received
                    the money back tou your account becausse i returned
                    your money. Then you told me not to tell any one about
                    this. One of the two banks made a mistake during
                    paying me Dollars instade of English money. But still
                    i went to the bank and told them the storry. I left
                    them your name, your phone nomber, your addres and my
                    phone nomber, addres etc.

                    YOU TOOK THE ADVANTAGE OF THE BANKS MISTAKE and now
                    you are mad on me because i worned them of theyir
                    mistake. This is not honesty at all. You received the
                    money back and i know that if i did not tell the bank
                    people some one else would have to pay for the mistake
                    that they did.

                    Let us talk about the problem that us two, me and you
                    have:

                    After you left those rugs to me to be repaired for
                    you, i asked you when would you come back to Tukey or
                    send the money for the restoration. This was while we
                    was going to the airport. You told me that you would
                    be at the other side of the telephone. As soon as you
                    arrive to England you would call me back... You went
                    to England and if you look at your passport you will
                    find out how long time you did not come to istanbul.
                    When ever i called you asking you to come to istanbul
                    to take you rugs and pay the repairer you would ask
                    me for more time.. Finally you came to Istanbul and
                    when it came to paying for the rugs restoration you
                    told me that you have allready pay me in cashe
                    beffore. I asked you: WHEN, WHERE AND HOW MUCH DID YOU
                    PAY ME?

                    YOU SID '' Ali, i am a tourist here and i know how
                    much the turkish police would sport a tourist against
                    a turk. If we go to the police they will believe in
                    what i said not you''

                    Collin, i had to pay the repairer instade of you...

                    Collin, While you was going to those religious Takka
                    or Madrassa people in RELIGIOUS DISTRICK OF ISTANBUL,
                    ACTING LIKE YOU WAS A VERRY MUSLIM RELIGIOUS, PRAY
                    WITH THEM, just beffore going there you would drinkn
                    beer with me. You would wash your mouth so that does
                    small while you are there. You was doing all that
                    because you was HONTING FOR SOME MUSSICAL ASTRUMENTS
                    that those so called DERVISHESS had...


                    COLLIN, IF YOU WANT TO, LET US TALK ABOUT VERRY PAST,
                    LET US START TALKING ABOUT YOUR JOB IN IRAN DURING
                    SAHS TIME, YOUR JOB AT SAHS FAMILY. LET US TALK ABOUT
                    HOW YOU WAS TAKEN BACK TO ENGLAND AFTER EVERY THING
                    HAPPENED IN IRAN AND TO THE SAHS FAMILY. Collin, if we
                    go there i am sure you have a latt to say....
                    Right?????????


                    Collin, i did not realy make any money on you, but i
                    wish i did, which it was my right to have done.

                    You think as you are a western, every Turk shoud
                    respect you, no one should be able to make any money
                    from what they do for you.

                    Collin,

                    TELL ME, HOW MANY RUGS HAVE YOU BOUGHT FROM TURKEY
                    ALL TUGETHER FOR SO MANY YEARS. THIS WAY I WILL HAVE
                    MORE IDEA ABOUT YOU.

                    YES, THIS IS ALI AVCI.

                    MY TIME IS MONEY, AND I CHARGE FOR MY TIME.


                    ALI



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                  • ali avci
                    Collin. I have paid $200 000 and still i owe Istanbul dealers about $100 000 more. Because i bought about 2000 very good rugs. And these days i will recive
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 9 6:39 PM
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                      Collin.


                      I have paid $200 000 and still i owe Istanbul dealers
                      about $100 000 more. Because i bought about 2000
                      very good rugs. And these days i will recive many more
                      rugs. Must of the time i am late at paying but i pay,
                      i do not do what you do.

                      I am all must all ways late at paying, but at the and
                      of the day i pay. This is the way that the rugs
                      business is. We the ones who are in this business on
                      cradoit all ways have problem with paying back. I am
                      one of them. But just after we pay, the same dealers
                      want sell us more rugs.

                      When i sell on cradit must of the time i have the same
                      problem. I can not receive my money at the time.


                      Collin, while my monthly Shop rent is $2000. And i
                      have a problem of $1500 with you. $1500 is not much
                      thing for me, but, you being such a person is my
                      problem, it is not that i walue $1500 at all. Tell me
                      that you do not have money to pay, then i prommise i
                      will forget about it.

                      You have problem with every one you deal with, i,
                      Mustafa Elma, the Shipping company are only 3 of
                      them...

                      Ali




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                    • Iain Stewart
                      I think this altercation between Colin and Ali has gone far enough and is of no help or real interest to anyone else. These kind of blood feuds have tarnished
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 10 7:05 AM
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                        I think this altercation between Colin and Ali has gone far enough and
                        is of no help or real interest to anyone else. These kind of blood feuds
                        have tarnished the image of the Oriental rug business for far too long,
                        unfortunately

                        So please, both Colin and Ali, if you want to continue this slanging
                        match, could you do it somewhere else, not on Rug Fanatics.

                        Thanks.

                        Iain Stewart
                        Rug Fanatics Owner/Moderator

                        --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci <aloavci@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Collin.
                        >
                        >
                        > I have paid $200 000 and still i owe Istanbul dealers
                        > about $100 000 more. Because i bought about 2000
                        > very good rugs. And these days i will recive many more
                        > rugs. Must of the time i am late at paying but i pay,
                        > i do not do what you do.
                        >
                        > I am all must all ways late at paying, but at the and
                        > of the day i pay. This is the way that the rugs
                        > business is. We the ones who are in this business on
                        > cradoit all ways have problem with paying back. I am
                        > one of them. But just after we pay, the same dealers
                        > want sell us more rugs.
                        >
                        > When i sell on cradit must of the time i have the same
                        > problem. I can not receive my money at the time.
                        >
                        >
                        > Collin, while my monthly Shop rent is $2000. And i
                        > have a problem of $1500 with you. $1500 is not much
                        > thing for me, but, you being such a person is my
                        > problem, it is not that i walue $1500 at all. Tell me
                        > that you do not have money to pay, then i prommise i
                        > will forget about it.
                        >
                        > You have problem with every one you deal with, i,
                        > Mustafa Elma, the Shipping company are only 3 of
                        > them...
                        >
                        > Ali
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • CUNEYT YESILCAY
                        Dear Colleagues; I am %100 agree with Mr.Stewart.It is none of our business.It has nothing to do with rug fanatics. Kind REgards GADY YESILCAY ...
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 10 7:21 AM
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                          Dear Colleagues;
                          I am %100 agree with Mr.Stewart.It is none of our
                          business.It has nothing to do with rug fanatics.
                          Kind REgards
                          GADY YESILCAY

                          --- Iain Stewart <webmaster@...> wrote:

                          > I think this altercation between Colin and Ali has
                          > gone far enough and
                          > is of no help or real interest to anyone else. These
                          > kind of blood feuds
                          > have tarnished the image of the Oriental rug
                          > business for far too long,
                          > unfortunately
                          >
                          > So please, both Colin and Ali, if you want to
                          > continue this slanging
                          > match, could you do it somewhere else, not on Rug
                          > Fanatics.
                          >
                          > Thanks.
                          >
                          > Iain Stewart
                          > Rug Fanatics Owner/Moderator
                          >
                          > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci
                          > <aloavci@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Collin.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I have paid $200 000 and still i owe Istanbul
                          > dealers
                          > > about $100 000 more. Because i bought about 2000
                          > > very good rugs. And these days i will recive many
                          > more
                          > > rugs. Must of the time i am late at paying but i
                          > pay,
                          > > i do not do what you do.
                          > >
                          > > I am all must all ways late at paying, but at the
                          > and
                          > > of the day i pay. This is the way that the rugs
                          > > business is. We the ones who are in this business
                          > on
                          > > cradoit all ways have problem with paying back. I
                          > am
                          > > one of them. But just after we pay, the same
                          > dealers
                          > > want sell us more rugs.
                          > >
                          > > When i sell on cradit must of the time i have the
                          > same
                          > > problem. I can not receive my money at the time.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Collin, while my monthly Shop rent is $2000. And i
                          > > have a problem of $1500 with you. $1500 is not
                          > much
                          > > thing for me, but, you being such a person is my
                          > > problem, it is not that i walue $1500 at all. Tell
                          > me
                          > > that you do not have money to pay, then i prommise
                          > i
                          > > will forget about it.
                          > >
                          > > You have problem with every one you deal with, i,
                          > > Mustafa Elma, the Shipping company are only 3 of
                          > > them...
                          > >
                          > > Ali
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          > protection around
                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          __________________________________________________
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                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                        • nancydak@aol.com
                          Dear Webmaster, Thank you very much regarding your request for a discontinuation of this distasteful exchange between two individuals. I look forward to the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 10 7:32 AM
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                            Dear Webmaster,
                             
                            Thank you very much regarding your request for a discontinuation of this distasteful exchange between two individuals.  I look forward to the daily educational discussions regarding the art of the rug; and, more specifically, the typical good manners of the participants of the on-line discussion has been like a breath of fresh spring air to me.
                             
                            Sincerely,
                             
                            Nancy
                          • ali avci
                            Dear Ian and others, I want to apologize for these e mails between Colin and I. This morning i was thinking that it is not fair to the Rug Fanatics to
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 10 8:44 AM
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                              Dear Ian and others, I want to apologize for these e
                              mails between Colin and I. This morning i was thinking
                              that it is not fair to the Rug Fanatics to discussing
                              this kind of distaste full things in this group.

                              I DID NOT START THIS.

                              Ali



                              --- Iain Stewart <webmaster@...> wrote:

                              > I think this altercation between Colin and Ali has
                              > gone far enough and
                              > is of no help or real interest to anyone else. These
                              > kind of blood feuds
                              > have tarnished the image of the Oriental rug
                              > business for far too long,
                              > unfortunately
                              >
                              > So please, both Colin and Ali, if you want to
                              > continue this slanging
                              > match, could you do it somewhere else, not on Rug
                              > Fanatics.
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                              >
                              > Iain Stewart
                              > Rug Fanatics Owner/Moderator
                              >
                              > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci
                              > <aloavci@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Collin.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I have paid $200 000 and still i owe Istanbul
                              > dealers
                              > > about $100 000 more. Because i bought about 2000
                              > > very good rugs. And these days i will recive many
                              > more
                              > > rugs. Must of the time i am late at paying but i
                              > pay,
                              > > i do not do what you do.
                              > >
                              > > I am all must all ways late at paying, but at the
                              > and
                              > > of the day i pay. This is the way that the rugs
                              > > business is. We the ones who are in this business
                              > on
                              > > cradoit all ways have problem with paying back. I
                              > am
                              > > one of them. But just after we pay, the same
                              > dealers
                              > > want sell us more rugs.
                              > >
                              > > When i sell on cradit must of the time i have the
                              > same
                              > > problem. I can not receive my money at the time.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Collin, while my monthly Shop rent is $2000. And i
                              > > have a problem of $1500 with you. $1500 is not
                              > much
                              > > thing for me, but, you being such a person is my
                              > > problem, it is not that i walue $1500 at all. Tell
                              > me
                              > > that you do not have money to pay, then i prommise
                              > i
                              > > will forget about it.
                              > >
                              > > You have problem with every one you deal with, i,
                              > > Mustafa Elma, the Shipping company are only 3 of
                              > > them...
                              > >
                              > > Ali
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > __________________________________________________
                              > > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                              > protection around
                              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


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