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Re: [rug-fanatics] Re: Lilian- price mark-ups

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  • Talal Abdulla
    Dear Karen DiSaia, We had an intensive argument a while back in one of the rug chatting groups on the same subject rug sale prices , and i do fully agree
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 1, 2005
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      Dear Karen DiSaia,
       
      We had an intensive argument a while back in one of the rug chatting groups on the same subject 'rug sale prices' , and i do fully agree with you about about a rep. dealer willing to drop down the price drastically- sometimes as low as 75-85%. It is so funny that during the siginificant years of me selling rugs, every time i passed by a rug shop, there is that huge-all-year-long post/sign that says ' 50-75% Sale'- it just seems that the rug business can not survive anymore without dropping the price so dramatically. There are, however, two points I'd like to raise:
       
      A) Do we think that a dealer can actually manage to make a good profit selling their rug for a very low price, if they, lets say, had huge overheads ( i am speaking retail here)?
       
      B) With total understanding and awareness of market competition, How about a dealer's credibility? Do they really care about their reputation and the change in mark-ups? especially IF they're selling an antique/'valuable' rug, for those who are passing by?- such fluctuation in prices can do a dealer's headin'- word of mouth can travel quite fast. Dunno, maybe someone can answer these questions for me- quite interigued!.
       
      Mr. Talal Abdulla
      www.talal.jozan.net


      ORIENTAL RUGS LTD <orientalrugs@...> wrote:
      For goodness sakes, no one should be selling a rug that has a value of 4000.00 for 1200.  That doesn't make any sense at all- no matter what kind of sale they are having!  A reputable dealer would never have that kind of price fluctuation- particularly on a good old rug!
       
      Karen DiSaia

      arrianablum <momintos@...> wrote:



      Well, I took Ali Avci's comment to mean that the seller has to make a
      little money too...

      Thanks to all those chiming in. I understand how difficult it is to
      opine on a rug without seeing it. I'm hoping to obtain a picture this
      week and, if I do, will post it here.

      I must also admit that I was somewhat shocked by the prices in this
      store. "My" little Lilian was by far the least expensive rug,
      regardless of size, and even it had a retail, pre sale price of about
      $4,000. Most other rugs its size were $2,500 and up.


      --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Stewart"
      wrote:
      >
      > This has certainly been a strange thread, just about a nice little
      > Lilian.
      >
      > I liked the enquiry about whether the 'small Lilian' was 5 x 3
      metres
      > (that would be *some* Lilian!) and now we have what looks like a
      > tender for a valuation contract.
      >
      > Well, while personally avoiding giving opinions as to monetary value
      > on given items, it is perfectly valid for a signed-up Rug Fanatic to
      > ask other members what they think about values, which advice tends
      to
      > be offered without obligation.
      >
      > 'ali avci' is right, however, when saying its impossible to give any
      > sort of an
      > opinion without at least sight of a good photo - surely whoever
      wants
      > to know about the Lilian can publish a quick snap of it somewhere,
      no?
      >
      > Most Lilians I've seen tend to be far more 'floral'
      and 'curvilinear'
      > in design than the majority of Hamadans, which are generally more
      > geometric in appearance. Also, of course, Lilians - like all Hamadan
      > rugs - will only have one weft between each horizontal row of knots,
      > and the knots will be symmetrical (Turkish).
      >
      > In my experience, they are among the most frequently encountered
      types
      > of Hamadan on the market, although I can't say I've seen many, if
      any,
      > which could be dated as far back as 1920. 1950, yes - I've seen
      > hundreds and hundreds, and they are still made in significant
      > quantities today.
      >
      > However, after that slight digression, I merely wanted to point out
      > that the apparent request for payment in the message below does not
      really
      > play within the high ideals of altruism upon which the rug-fanatics
      > group is founded, and should not be taken too seriously.
      > --
      > Iain Stewart
      > Rug Fanatics moderator
      >
      > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci wrote:
      > >
      > > no one can tell u about a rug without seing it....
      > >
      > > and the person should make money as well...
      > >
      > > all the best
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
      > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail








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      Karen DiSaia
      Oriental Rugs Ltd.
      PO Box 814
      Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
      860-434-1167


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    • ORIENTAL RUGS LTD
      I have always wondered about the giant going out of business sales that spent thousands of dollars advertising that they were going out of business- and
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2005
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        I have always wondered about the giant going out of business sales that spent thousands of dollars advertising that they were going out of business- and selling rugs at 50-70% off their original cost- how can that work?  I got a taste of it when we decided to close our store in Mystic Ct.  I had a number of parties interested in purchasing our name for a sale of that type.  We weren't going out of business, so we weren't interested, but we were offered as much as $50.000.00- just to use our space and our name.  The advertising would have been on top of that......  There is no way that with that type of overhead anyone is offering any kind of a deal on the rugs. 
         
        The rug business is so interesting in this way.  The public seems to want to think that they are getting a "deal" on rugs- more than any other type of thing that they buy!  The reality is that if the rugs are good, they are art.  The people who get the best deals on rugs in the long run, are the people who buy the best thing they can possible afford and buy it because they love it!
         
        Antique rugs, in particular, have become more and more rare in the last 30 years.  No one in their right mind, would be selling these for less than they are worth- it isn't necessary and it doesn't make sense.  The one caveat here is that worth can be a relative term  Dealers with high overhead, need to charge more just to stay in business.
         
        This entire line of discussion was started by a person who wanted to get a relative value on a Lillehan.  As I said in the begining,  A Lillehan in good condition should have long lusterous wool and beautiful color.  If the rug is flat, it isn't in good condition.  That should be a clue that it isn't what the novice thinks it is....and there in lies the ability of the oriental rug business to confuse people.  I suggested that looking at other lillehans at other dealers would be a good way to make comparitive assesments.  Looking a photos on Ebay is useless as a comparitive tool and, in fact, posting a photo for this site won't be that helpful either.
         
        I think it is important to realize that there is an entire business of "going out of business" in the Oriental Rug arena.  There are wholesalers who do nothing but stage these sales.  In my experience, the antique rugs that one finds at these sales are grossly overpriced- even at half off!!
        Karen DiSaia
        orientalrugs@...

        Talal Abdulla <talalkw@...> wrote:
        Dear Karen DiSaia,
         
        We had an intensive argument a while back in one of the rug chatting groups on the same subject 'rug sale prices' , and i do fully agree with you about about a rep. dealer willing to drop down the price drastically- sometimes as low as 75-85%. It is so funny that during the siginificant years of me selling rugs, every time i passed by a rug shop, there is that huge-all-year-long post/sign that says ' 50-75% Sale'- it just seems that the rug business can not survive anymore without dropping the price so dramatically. There are, however, two points I'd like to raise:
         
        A) Do we think that a dealer can actually manage to make a good profit selling their rug for a very low price, if they, lets say, had huge overheads ( i am speaking retail here)?
         
        B) With total understanding and awareness of market competition, How about a dealer's credibility? Do they really care about their reputation and the change in mark-ups? especially IF they're selling an antique/'valuable' rug, for those who are passing by?- such fluctuation in prices can do a dealer's headin'- word of mouth can travel quite fast. Dunno, maybe someone can answer these questions for me- quite interigued!.
         
        Mr. Talal Abdulla
        www.talal.jozan.net


        ORIENTAL RUGS LTD <orientalrugs@...> wrote:
        For goodness sakes, no one should be selling a rug that has a value of 4000.00 for 1200.  That doesn't make any sense at all- no matter what kind of sale they are having!  A reputable dealer would never have that kind of price fluctuation- particularly on a good old rug!
         
        Karen DiSaia

        arrianablum <momintos@...> wrote:



        Well, I took Ali Avci's comment to mean that the seller has to make a
        little money too...

        Thanks to all those chiming in. I understand how difficult it is to
        opine on a rug without seeing it. I'm hoping to obtain a picture this
        week and, if I do, will post it here.

        I must also admit that I was somewhat shocked by the prices in this
        store. "My" little Lilian was by far the least expensive rug,
        regardless of size, and even it had a retail, pre sale price of about
        $4,000. Most other rugs its size were $2,500 and up.


        --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Stewart"
        wrote:
        >
        > This has certainly been a strange thread, just about a nice little
        > Lilian.
        >
        > I liked the enquiry about whether the 'small Lilian' was 5 x 3
        metres
        > (that would be *some* Lilian!) and now we have what looks like a
        > tender for a valuation contract.
        >
        > Well, while personally avoiding giving opinions as to monetary value
        > on given items, it is perfectly valid for a signed-up Rug Fanatic to
        > ask other members what they think about values, which advice tends
        to
        > be offered without obligation.
        >
        > 'ali avci' is right, however, when saying its impossible to give any
        > sort of an
        > opinion without at least sight of a good photo - surely whoever
        wants
        > to know about the Lilian can publish a quick snap of it somewhere,
        no?
        >
        > Most Lilians I've seen tend to be far more 'floral'
        and 'curvilinear'
        > in design than the majority of Hamadans, which are generally more
        > geometric in appearance. Also, of course, Lilians - like all Hamadan
        > rugs - will only have one weft between each horizontal row of knots,
        > and the knots will be symmetrical (Turkish).
        >
        > In my experience, they are among the most frequently encountered
        types
        > of Hamadan on the market, although I can't say I've seen many, if
        any,
        > which could be dated as far back as 1920. 1950, yes - I've seen
        > hundreds and hundreds, and they are still made in significant
        > quantities today.
        >
        > However, after that slight digression, I merely wanted to point out
        > that the apparent request for payment in the message below does not
        really
        > play within the high ideals of altruism upon which the rug-fanatics
        > group is founded, and should not be taken too seriously.
        > --
        > Iain Stewart
        > Rug Fanatics moderator
        >
        > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci wrote:
        > >
        > > no one can tell u about a rug without seing it....
        > >
        > > and the person should make money as well...
        > >
        > > all the best
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > __________________________________
        > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
        > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail








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        Karen DiSaia
        Oriental Rugs Ltd.
        PO Box 814
        Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
        860-434-1167


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        Karen DiSaia
        Oriental Rugs Ltd.
        PO Box 814
        Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
        860-434-1167
      • arrianablum
        Hi, I posted the original question. Fascinating discussion about the rug business. In this case, the dealer is an established and reputable NYC dealer that is
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 9, 2005
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          Hi,

          I posted the original question. Fascinating discussion about the rug
          business. In this case, the dealer is an established and reputable
          NYC dealer that is retiring and liquidating his entire inventory.
          Maybe that accounts for the price slashing.


          --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ORIENTAL RUGS LTD
          <orientalrugs@s...> wrote:
          > I have always wondered about the giant going out of business sales
          that spent thousands of dollars advertising that they were going out
          of business- and selling rugs at 50-70% off their original cost- how
          can that work? I got a taste of it when we decided to close our
          store in Mystic Ct. I had a number of parties interested in
          purchasing our name for a sale of that type. We weren't going out of
          business, so we weren't interested, but we were offered as much as
          $50.000.00- just to use our space and our name. The advertising
          would have been on top of that...... There is no way that with that
          type of overhead anyone is offering any kind of a deal on the rugs.
          >
          > The rug business is so interesting in this way. The public seems
          to want to think that they are getting a "deal" on rugs- more than
          any other type of thing that they buy! The reality is that if the
          rugs are good, they are art. The people who get the best deals on
          rugs in the long run, are the people who buy the best thing they can
          possible afford and buy it because they love it!
          >
          > Antique rugs, in particular, have become more and more rare in the
          last 30 years. No one in their right mind, would be selling these
          for less than they are worth- it isn't necessary and it doesn't make
          sense. The one caveat here is that worth can be a relative term
          Dealers with high overhead, need to charge more just to stay in
          business.
          >
          > This entire line of discussion was started by a person who wanted
          to get a relative value on a Lillehan. As I said in the begining, A
          Lillehan in good condition should have long lusterous wool and
          beautiful color. If the rug is flat, it isn't in good condition.
          That should be a clue that it isn't what the novice thinks it
          is....and there in lies the ability of the oriental rug business to
          confuse people. I suggested that looking at other lillehans at other
          dealers would be a good way to make comparitive assesments. Looking
          a photos on Ebay is useless as a comparitive tool and, in fact,
          posting a photo for this site won't be that helpful either.
          >
          > I think it is important to realize that there is an entire business
          of "going out of business" in the Oriental Rug arena. There are
          wholesalers who do nothing but stage these sales. In my experience,
          the antique rugs that one finds at these sales are grossly overpriced-
          even at half off!!
          > Karen DiSaia
          > orientalrugs@s...
          >
          > Talal Abdulla <talalkw@y...> wrote:
          > Dear Karen DiSaia,
          >
          > We had an intensive argument a while back in one of the rug
          chatting groups on the same subject 'rug sale prices' , and i do
          fully agree with you about about a rep. dealer willing to drop down
          the price drastically- sometimes as low as 75-85%. It is so funny
          that during the siginificant years of me selling rugs, every time i
          passed by a rug shop, there is that huge-all-year-long post/sign that
          says ' 50-75% Sale'- it just seems that the rug business can not
          survive anymore without dropping the price so dramatically. There
          are, however, two points I'd like to raise:
          >
          > A) Do we think that a dealer can actually manage to make a good
          profit selling their rug for a very low price, if they, lets say, had
          huge overheads ( i am speaking retail here)?
          >
          > B) With total understanding and awareness of market competition,
          How about a dealer's credibility? Do they really care about their
          reputation and the change in mark-ups? especially IF they're selling
          an antique/'valuable' rug, for those who are passing by?- such
          fluctuation in prices can do a dealer's headin'- word of mouth can
          travel quite fast. Dunno, maybe someone can answer these questions
          for me- quite interigued!.
          >
          > Mr. Talal Abdulla
          > www.talal.jozan.net
          >
          >
          > ORIENTAL RUGS LTD <orientalrugs@s...> wrote:
          > For goodness sakes, no one should be selling a rug that has a value
          of 4000.00 for 1200. That doesn't make any sense at all- no matter
          what kind of sale they are having! A reputable dealer would never
          have that kind of price fluctuation- particularly on a good old rug!
          >
          > Karen DiSaia
          >
          > arrianablum <momintos@m...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Well, I took Ali Avci's comment to mean that the seller has to make
          a
          > little money too...
          >
          > Thanks to all those chiming in. I understand how difficult it is to
          > opine on a rug without seeing it. I'm hoping to obtain a picture
          this
          > week and, if I do, will post it here.
          >
          > I must also admit that I was somewhat shocked by the prices in this
          > store. "My" little Lilian was by far the least expensive rug,
          > regardless of size, and even it had a retail, pre sale price of
          about
          > $4,000. Most other rugs its size were $2,500 and up.
          >
          >
          > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Stewart"
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > This has certainly been a strange thread, just about a nice little
          > > Lilian.
          > >
          > > I liked the enquiry about whether the 'small Lilian' was 5 x 3
          > metres
          > > (that would be *some* Lilian!) and now we have what looks like a
          > > tender for a valuation contract.
          > >
          > > Well, while personally avoiding giving opinions as to monetary
          value
          > > on given items, it is perfectly valid for a signed-up Rug Fanatic
          to
          > > ask other members what they think about values, which advice
          tends
          > to
          > > be offered without obligation.
          > >
          > > 'ali avci' is right, however, when saying its impossible to give
          any
          > > sort of an
          > > opinion without at least sight of a good photo - surely whoever
          > wants
          > > to know about the Lilian can publish a quick snap of it
          somewhere,
          > no?
          > >
          > > Most Lilians I've seen tend to be far more 'floral'
          > and 'curvilinear'
          > > in design than the majority of Hamadans, which are generally more
          > > geometric in appearance. Also, of course, Lilians - like all
          Hamadan
          > > rugs - will only have one weft between each horizontal row of
          knots,
          > > and the knots will be symmetrical (Turkish).
          > >
          > > In my experience, they are among the most frequently encountered
          > types
          > > of Hamadan on the market, although I can't say I've seen many, if
          > any,
          > > which could be dated as far back as 1920. 1950, yes - I've seen
          > > hundreds and hundreds, and they are still made in significant
          > > quantities today.
          > >
          > > However, after that slight digression, I merely wanted to point
          out
          > > that the apparent request for payment in the message below does
          not
          > really
          > > play within the high ideals of altruism upon which the rug-
          fanatics
          > > group is founded, and should not be taken too seriously.
          > > --
          > > Iain Stewart
          > > Rug Fanatics moderator
          > >
          > > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci wrote:
          > > >
          > > > no one can tell u about a rug without seing it....
          > > >
          > > > and the person should make money as well...
          > > >
          > > > all the best
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > __________________________________
          > > > Do you Yahoo!?
          > > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
          > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > * Subscribe, unsubscribe, browse messages and archives, post and
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          > Karen DiSaia
          > Oriental Rugs Ltd.
          > PO Box 814
          > Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
          > 860-434-1167
          >
          >
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          >
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          > Karen DiSaia
          > Oriental Rugs Ltd.
          > PO Box 814
          > Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
          > 860-434-1167
        • ORIENTAL RUGS LTD
          Never the less, if the rug was, in fact, worth 4000.00 and it is now being offered at 1200. it should have been snapped up instantly. These situations require
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 10, 2005
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            Never the less, if the rug was, in fact, worth 4000.00 and it is now being offered at 1200. it should have been snapped up instantly.  These situations require extreme care and logic on the part of the buyer.  That being said, if you truly love the rug and have the money then you should just buy it!
            Karen DiSaia

            arrianablum <momintos@...> wrote:



            Hi,

            I posted the original question. Fascinating discussion about the rug
            business. In this case, the dealer is an established and reputable
            NYC dealer that is retiring and liquidating his entire inventory.
            Maybe that accounts for the price slashing.


            --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ORIENTAL RUGS LTD
            wrote:
            > I have always wondered about the giant going out of business sales
            that spent thousands of dollars advertising that they were going out
            of business- and selling rugs at 50-70% off their original cost- how
            can that work? I got a taste of it when we decided to close our
            store in Mystic Ct. I had a number of parties interested in
            purchasing our name for a sale of that type. We weren't going out of
            business, so we weren't interested, but we were offered as much as
            $50.000.00- just to use our space and our name. The advertising
            would have been on top of that...... There is no way that with that
            type of overhead anyone is offering any kind of a deal on the rugs.
            >
            > The rug business is so interesting in this way. The public seems
            to want to think that they are getting a "deal" on rugs- more than
            any other type of thing that they buy! The reality is that if the
            rugs are good, they are art. The people who get the best deals on
            rugs in the long run, are the people who buy the best thing they can
            possible afford and buy it because they love it!
            >
            > Antique rugs, in particular, have become more and more rare in the
            last 30 years. No one in their right mind, would be selling these
            for less than they are worth- it isn't necessary and it doesn't make
            sense. The one caveat here is that worth can be a relative term
            Dealers with high overhead, need to charge more just to stay in
            business.
            >
            > This entire line of discussion was started by a person who wanted
            to get a relative value on a Lillehan. As I said in the begining, A
            Lillehan in good condition should have long lusterous wool and
            beautiful color. If the rug is flat, it isn't in good condition.
            That should be a clue that it isn't what the novice thinks it
            is....and there in lies the ability of the oriental rug business to
            confuse people. I suggested that looking at other lillehans at other
            dealers would be a good way to make comparitive assesments. Looking
            a photos on Ebay is useless as a comparitive tool and, in fact,
            posting a photo for this site won't be that helpful either.
            >
            > I think it is important to realize that there is an entire business
            of "going out of business" in the Oriental Rug arena. There are
            wholesalers who do nothing but stage these sales. In my experience,
            the antique rugs that one finds at these sales are grossly overpriced-
            even at half off!!
            > Karen DiSaia
            > orientalrugs@s...
            >
            > Talal Abdulla wrote:
            > Dear Karen DiSaia,
            >
            > We had an intensive argument a while back in one of the rug
            chatting groups on the same subject 'rug sale prices' , and i do
            fully agree with you about about a rep. dealer willing to drop down
            the price drastically- sometimes as low as 75-85%. It is so funny
            that during the siginificant years of me selling rugs, every time i
            passed by a rug shop, there is that huge-all-year-long post/sign that
            says ' 50-75% Sale'- it just seems that the rug business can not
            survive anymore without dropping the price so dramatically. There
            are, however, two points I'd like to raise:
            >
            > A) Do we think that a dealer can actually manage to make a good
            profit selling their rug for a very low price, if they, lets say, had
            huge overheads ( i am speaking retail here)?
            >
            > B) With total understanding and awareness of market competition,
            How about a dealer's credibility? Do they really care about their
            reputation and the change in mark-ups? especially IF they're selling
            an antique/'valuable' rug, for those who are passing by?- such
            fluctuation in prices can do a dealer's headin'- word of mouth can
            travel quite fast. Dunno, maybe someone can answer these questions
            for me- quite interigued!.
            >
            > Mr. Talal Abdulla
            > www.talal.jozan.net
            >
            >
            > ORIENTAL RUGS LTD wrote:
            > For goodness sakes, no one should be selling a rug that has a value
            of 4000.00 for 1200. That doesn't make any sense at all- no matter
            what kind of sale they are having! A reputable dealer would never
            have that kind of price fluctuation- particularly on a good old rug!
            >
            > Karen DiSaia
            >
            > arrianablum wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Well, I took Ali Avci's comment to mean that the seller has to make
            a
            > little money too...
            >
            > Thanks to all those chiming in. I understand how difficult it is to
            > opine on a rug without seeing it. I'm hoping to obtain a picture
            this
            > week and, if I do, will post it here.
            >
            > I must also admit that I was somewhat shocked by the prices in this
            > store. "My" little Lilian was by far the least expensive rug,
            > regardless of size, and even it had a retail, pre sale price of
            about
            > $4,000. Most other rugs its size were $2,500 and up.
            >
            >
            > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Stewart"
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > This has certainly been a strange thread, just about a nice little
            > > Lilian.
            > >
            > > I liked the enquiry about whether the 'small Lilian' was 5 x 3
            > metres
            > > (that would be *some* Lilian!) and now we have what looks like a
            > > tender for a valuation contract.
            > >
            > > Well, while personally avoiding giving opinions as to monetary
            value
            > > on given items, it is perfectly valid for a signed-up Rug Fanatic
            to
            > > ask other members what they think about values, which advice
            tends
            > to
            > > be offered without obligation.
            > >
            > > 'ali avci' is right, however, when saying its impossible to give
            any
            > > sort of an
            > > opinion without at least sight of a good photo - surely whoever
            > wants
            > > to know about the Lilian can publish a quick snap of it
            somewhere,
            > no?
            > >
            > > Most Lilians I've seen tend to be far more 'floral'
            > and 'curvilinear'
            > > in design than the majority of Hamadans, which are generally more
            > > geometric in appearance. Also, of course, Lilians - like all
            Hamadan
            > > rugs - will only have one weft between each horizontal row of
            knots,
            > > and the knots will be symmetrical (Turkish).
            > >
            > > In my experience, they are among the most frequently encountered
            > types
            > > of Hamadan on the market, although I can't say I've seen many, if
            > any,
            > > which could be dated as far back as 1920. 1950, yes - I've seen
            > > hundreds and hundreds, and they are still made in significant
            > > quantities today.
            > >
            > > However, after that slight digression, I merely wanted to point
            out
            > > that the apparent request for payment in the message below does
            not
            > really
            > > play within the high ideals of altruism upon which the rug-
            fanatics
            > > group is founded, and should not be taken too seriously.
            > > --
            > > Iain Stewart
            > > Rug Fanatics moderator
            > >
            > > --- In rug-fanatics@yahoogroups.com, ali avci wrote:
            > > >
            > > > no one can tell u about a rug without seing it....
            > > >
            > > > and the person should make money as well...
            > > >
            > > > all the best
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________
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            > Karen DiSaia
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            > 860-434-1167
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            > Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
            > 860-434-1167








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            Karen DiSaia
            Oriental Rugs Ltd.
            PO Box 814
            Old Lyme, Ct. 06371
            860-434-1167
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