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Re: FriendFeed's Simple Update Protocol

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  • rcade
    I added an issue to SUP s home page on Code.Google.Com about the use of invalid RSS: http://code.google.com/p/simpleupdateprotocol/issues/detail?id=3 That page
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 6, 2008
      I added an issue to SUP's home page on Code.Google.Com about the use
      of invalid RSS:

      http://code.google.com/p/simpleupdateprotocol/issues/detail?id=3

      That page permits comments, so it's a way to reach the SUP creators
      with feedback on this issue and others.
    • Charles Iliya Krempeaux
      Hello, ... AFAIK, Atom requires you to use URLs for non-standard rel attribute values. So what SUP is doing for the rel attribute is correct. ... You
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 6, 2008
        Hello,

        On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:48 AM, rcade <cadenhead@...> wrote:
        > FriendFeed is working on Simple Update Protocol (SUP), a means of
        > discovering when feeds on a particular service have been updated
        > without polling the individual feeds:
        >
        > http://code.google.com/p/simpleupdateprotocol/
        >
        > Feeds indicate their updates can be tracked with SUP by using a new
        > channel-link tag, as in this example from an Atom feed:
        >
        > <link rel="http://api.friendfeed.com/2008/03#sup"
        > href="http://friendfeed.com/api/sup.json#53924729"
        > type="application/json" />
        >
        > The rel attribute identifies an ID for the feed, called its SUP-ID.
        > The href attribute contains a URL that uses JSON data to identify
        > updated feeds by their SUP-IDs.
        >
        > My first take on the protocol is that defining a relationship with a
        > URI is too different than standard link relationships in HTML:
        >
        > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#type-links

        AFAIK, Atom requires you to use URLs for non-standard "rel" attribute
        values. So what SUP is doing for the "rel" attribute is correct.

        > Also, neither RSS 1.0 nor RSS 2.0 allows multiple channel-link tags,
        > so this would only be valid in an Atom feed.
        >
        > Both of these concerns could be addressed by identifying the SUP
        > provider with a new namespace like this:
        >
        > <rss xmlns:sup="http://friendfeed.com/api/sup/">
        > <channel>
        > <sup:provider href="http://friendfeed.com/api/sup.json#53924729"
        > type="application/json" />
        > ...

        You could also just use Atomic RSS...

        http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/07/27/Atomic-RSS

        ... and get...

        <rss xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
        <channel>
        <atom:link rel="http://api.friendfeed.com/2008/03#sup"
        href="http://friendfeed.com/api/sup.json#53924729"
        type="application/json" />
        ...

        That way SUP looks basically the same in Atom and RSS.

        --
        Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
        http://changelog.ca/
      • rcade
        ... Interesting -- I wasn t aware of that. I tried to check it in the Atom format spec, but I don t understand this sentence: The value of rel MUST be a
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 6, 2008
          --- In rss-public@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Iliya Krempeaux"
          <supercanadian@...> wrote:
          > AFAIK, Atom requires you to use URLs for non-standard "rel" attribute
          > values. So what SUP is doing for the "rel" attribute is correct.

          Interesting -- I wasn't aware of that. I tried to check it in the Atom
          format spec, but I don't understand this sentence:

          "The value of "rel" MUST be a string that is non-empty and matches
          either the "isegment-nz-nc" or the "IRI" production in [RFC3987]."

          http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#element.link

          Which part of that means it's OK to define new relationships as IRIs
          instead of getting IANA approval for your new rel value?

          > <atom:link rel="http://api.friendfeed.com/2008/03#sup"
          > href="http://friendfeed.com/api/sup.json#53924729"
          > type="application/json" />
          > ...

          Are you aware of any IRI-based relationships that are currently in use
          employing atom:link in feeds?
        • Aristotle Pagaltzis
          ... The sentence directly following that one. If a name is given, implementations MUST consider the link relation type equivalent to the same name registered
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
            * rcade <cadenhead@...> [2008-12-07 02:15]:
            > I tried to check it in the Atom format spec, but I don't
            > understand this sentence:
            >
            > "The value of "rel" MUST be a string that is non-empty and
            > matches either the "isegment-nz-nc" or the "IRI" production in
            > [RFC3987]."
            >
            > http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#element.link
            >
            > Which part of that means it's OK to define new relationships as
            > IRIs instead of getting IANA approval for your new rel value?

            The sentence directly following that one.

            If a name is given, implementations MUST consider the link
            relation type equivalent to the same name registered within
            the IANA Registry of Link Relations (Section 7), and thus to
            the IRI that would be obtained by appending the value of the
            rel attribute to the string
            "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/".

            IANA is the authority for iana.org URIs, but you are free to use
            your own.

            Regards,
            --
            Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>
          • Charles Iliya Krempeaux
            Hello, ... [...] ... Well, obviously anyone can create an Atom URL/URI/IRI/whatever-you-want-to-call-them rel extension... and I ve even done it for in
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
              Hello,

              On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 5:13 PM, rcade <cadenhead@...> wrote:
              > --- In rss-public@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Iliya Krempeaux"
              >
              > <supercanadian@...> wrote:

              [...]

              > Are you aware of any IRI-based relationships that are currently in use
              > employing atom:link in feeds?

              Well, obviously anyone can create an Atom
              URL/URI/IRI/whatever-you-want-to-call-them "rel" extension... and I've
              even done it for "in house" software. But I'm guessing you mean ones
              in the wild. Well there's SUP. Atom threading was initially
              done/proposed that way too I think. (See:
              http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atom10.html for
              example.) But I don't really know of any others.

              --
              Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
              http://changelog.ca/
            • Sam Ruby
              ... Neither place any limits on the number of atom:link elements in such contexts. Atom links with a rel= self are already commonplace in RSS 2.0 feeds. -
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
                rcade wrote:
                >
                > Also, neither RSS 1.0 nor RSS 2.0 allows multiple channel-link tags,
                > so this would only be valid in an Atom feed.

                Neither place any limits on the number of atom:link elements in such
                contexts. Atom links with a rel="self" are already commonplace in RSS
                2.0 feeds.

                - Sam Ruby
              • rcade
                ... True. But the documentation for SUP doesn t say that RSS publishers should use atom:link in their feeds to define a provider. The docs just say to add a
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
                  --- In rss-public@yahoogroups.com, Sam Ruby <rubys@...> wrote:
                  > Neither place any limits on the number of atom:link elements in such
                  > contexts. Atom links with a rel="self" are already commonplace in
                  > RSS 2.0 feeds.

                  True. But the documentation for SUP doesn't say that RSS publishers
                  should use atom:link in their feeds to define a provider. The docs
                  just say to add a link tag.
                • Charles Iliya Krempeaux
                  Hello ... Seems like quite the hack. -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://changelog.ca/
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
                    Hello


                    On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM, rcade <cadenhead@...> wrote:
                    > After posting I found an alternative idea employed by Six Apart -- an
                    > update stream in Atom format with updates from any TypePad or Vox blog:
                    >
                    > http://updates.sixapart.com/
                    >
                    > There's also something Radio UserLand does -- a channel-category tag:
                    >
                    > <category
                    > domain="http://rpc.weblogs.com/shortChanges.xml">rssUpdates>/category>
                    >
                    > The domain is a changes.xml file on a Weblogs.Com-style ping server.

                    Seems like quite the hack.

                    --
                    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
                    http://changelog.ca/
                  • James Holderness
                    ... I know Google uses IRI-based relationships in number of their feeds. Have a look on Google calendar and Picasa for some examples. Not that I d necessarily
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
                      rcade wrote:
                      > Are you aware of any IRI-based relationships that are currently in use
                      > employing atom:link in feeds?

                      I know Google uses IRI-based relationships in number of their feeds. Have a
                      look on Google calendar and Picasa for some examples.

                      Not that I'd necessarily recommend anything that Google is doing, but if
                      you're just looking for examples...

                      Regards
                      James
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