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Re: Merge threads - who, what, why

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  • Shelley Powers
    ... membership ... public ... with ... before ... wider ... RSS ... two of ... You re right Dan, and I apologize. The group isn t responsible for Seth. Only
    Message 1 of 36 , Sep 23, 2002
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      >
      > I think it is unfair to blame 'this group' (either the wider
      membership
      > of RSS-DEV or the membership of the RSS working group who work in
      public
      > on this list) for Seth's choice of language. If you have issues
      with
      > Seth's use of the English language, please take them up with Seth
      before
      > using it as evidence for a general critique of this ill-defined
      wider
      > group. Particularly since Seth isn't even a member of the RSS-DEV
      RSS
      > Working Group. It sounds like a heat of the moment thing that the
      two of
      > you could resolve amicably offlist (hopefully).
      >

      You're right Dan, and I apologize. The group isn't responsible for
      Seth. Only Seth is responsible for Seth.

      I intended this to be an intense discussion, with push back, but one
      that didn't get personal.

      > > I wanted to make a point today. And I think I made it.
      >
      > Several!
      >
      > > As for FOAF -- FOAF is friend-of-a-friend.
      > > It wasn't meant for identification or for web of trust.
      >
      > Um, well it was, since you mention it. As an experimental
      environment
      > for figuring out how to deal with these issues in the 'wild' of the
      Web,
      > rather than in an academic/armchair environment. Identification and
      > trust are two of the key issues that people like to speculate on.
      FOAF
      > was designed as a way of getting us all some more real-life
      experience
      > of how those issues interact with the available technology (XML,
      > namespaces, RDF, digital signatures, URI identifiers...). It was
      > designed to be useful, useable and experimental. Eventually. We're
      not
      > there yet, and to my knowledge haven't claimed otherwise (though
      perhaps
      > others might've; I've not kept up with Weblogland...).
      >

      Confusion about FOAF, but you're a daddy of the tech, so, okay.

      > > It was a test of a technology and a concept.
      >
      > Yup. Technology that is enormously mixed up in the challenges of
      > identification and trust in a distributed information system.
      >
      >
      > > I have absolutely no use for a FOAF file at my site. #
      >
      > That's fine. I'm sorry you've got the impression people are forcing
      FOAF
      > at you. It's just an RDF-based XML document format I made up with
      some
      > friends for exploring these issues instead of talking about them
      (we did
      > a lot of the latter on the RDF lists; it got dull quick). It was
      > intended to be deceptively fun, but through doing so focus
      attention on
      > some very thorny issues, both technical and social. If this isn't
      up
      > your street, that's fine. It's just another RDF vocabulary, and if
      of
      > no interest, plenty safe to ignore for now.
      >
      > > You want to know about me, trying clicking the little hypertext
      link that
      > > says "About Burningbird". I know it doesn't have an orange xml
      > > picture attached to it, but such is life.
      >
      > Will do. You sound sort of angry about this FOAF thing. If anything
      > written on the FOAF and RDFWeb pages have caused annoyance, let me
      know.
      >
      > If it's Seth, talk to Seth. I'm kinda freaked that FOAF is all over
      > Weblog land these last few days, while it's still pretty much work
      in
      > progress amonst friends. My advice to the curious: if it looks
      > interesting, take a look. Many of our pages are a bit rough, and
      the
      > docs and code are often that way too. If you find it annoying,
      > half-baked, naive or sinister, maybe take a break and look at
      something
      > else instead. Or drop a note with your thoughts to
      > rdfweb-dev@y... instead, maybe...
      >
      > > "Run your mouth". Unbelievable.
      >
      > Yes, in my version of English that comes over as a bit rude.
      >
      >
      > > Shelley
      >
      > Dan
    • Jon Hanna
      Unfortunately illness kept me away from my machine for a few days, and is currently reducing my desire to correspond quite drastically. It is also likely to
      Message 36 of 36 , Sep 25, 2002
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        Unfortunately illness kept me away from my machine for a few days, and is
        currently reducing my desire to correspond quite drastically. It is also
        likely to make my normally rambling style even worse.

        However Shelley's main question about the "business" of RSS is important and
        I'd like to have my 2c.

        It seems to me that there are three ways to define the purpose of a
        technology. One I will label "designed", one "adaptive", and the other
        "reductive".

        The designed way is to have a purpose decided by necessity or inspiration
        from which you design the technology. The technology then apparently springs
        from the forehead of the individual or group who create it fully-formed,
        since it is generally only after much work that the public is made aware of
        it.

        The adaptive way is to define a purpose by examining the uses to which it's
        predecessors are used.

        The reductive is similar to the adaptive, but more forcibly redefines the
        purpose by producing a technology that can no longer be used for some of the
        tasks it's predecessors were put to.

        The parthenogenesis of the designed way tends to produce "purer"
        technologies with limited application, the adaptive way tends to produce
        messy technologies with a wide range of applications, many of which it does
        not match very well. As annoying as the inelegance may often be the latter
        type tend to be the most useful. The reductive method tends to result in
        something between those two.

        Many technologies start with a designed version 1.0 (or 0.x when the
        author(s) choose to acknowledge that they don't consider it finished) and
        are then used for purposes outside of their initial use-case which feed into
        an adaptive definition of the purposes of later versions. To elide
        historical detail for the sake of brevity the Internet's designed goal is to
        be a military and academic communication network that can survive total
        destruction of many of it's nodes and the Web's designed goal is to provide
        a simple way to write up scientific papers which would include references to
        other such papers, hypertext being used to make those references more
        useful. The Internet and the Web both have current uses quite different to
        those, and many of their parts are used in manners further removed from
        their origins (e.g. the use of HTML in many Windows technologies doesn't
        even make use of the Web's distributed nature).

        I maintain that RSS is such a technology. It's designed purpose is the
        syndication of "news" items from individual websites to a portal website, to
        be more specific to the MyNetscape portal website. It was *not* designed to
        be of any particular use to bloggers, aggregators, or metadata providers,
        but it *does* serve them and others.

        Which makes answering Shelley's question a bit tricky. Casting the net wide
        there are real-world use cases now which include some cases quite close to
        the original intent, but also some that are quite disparate (e.g. using
        RSS - either in accordance with the spec, or else as a mere provider of
        vocabulary - to provide a table-of-contents to a collection of RDF documents
        describing a site or other system). As such the best answer I can think of
        for the purpose of RSS is:

        "To provide information about web resources that change often enough to make
        such information worth giving".

        Which is a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer really, but not a useless one,
        for it still has implications in our decisions if we intend RSS+ to remain
        useful to all or most of its current users.

        In particular it means that dropping features, including features that are
        by-products of design rather than deliberately built into the format, should
        only be done with extreme caution. With such a wide range of use-cases any
        feature could prove vital to someone. This includes RDF, inherent (as
        opposed to spec-defined) ordering, the ability to work as a "pure" XML
        format, and in fact everything that someone (including myself) has suggested
        dropping.

        The reductive method could be applied here. We could define the use-case of
        RSS as, for example, "syndication of blog items", which is pretty much the
        use case of RSS0.92+/RSS2.0 and design appropriately, dropping features such
        a case doesn't need.

        Dropping such a feature is likely to lead to a split as developers no longer
        served look elsewhere, indeed that is part of the reason for the
        RDFSS/RichSS split. Such a split may indeed be a good thing, but there are
        obviously disadvantages in the loss of momentum and critical mass that it
        would entail.

        In all I would avoid a reductive definition of RSS+'s purpose. If needed
        such reduction can be provided by APIs in only providing access to some of a
        feed's information without necessitating the same reduction in the format
        itself.

        This isn't conducive to simplicity, but it doesn't preclude it either, and
        everyone benefits from simplicity (that said I'd be prepared to sacrifice
        simplicity from an RDF perspective to gain simplicity from an XML
        perspective - as in using Collection).
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