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IMPORTANT: RSS by any other name...

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  • rael@oreilly.com
    Howdy Folks, There s been much discussion going on on the [Syndication] mailing list about clearing up possible confusions associated with there being two RSSs
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 3, 2001
      Howdy Folks,

      There's been much discussion going on on the [Syndication]
      mailing list about clearing up possible confusions associated
      with there being two RSSs (1.0 and 0.9x) and bringing the
      community together behind RSS in some manner.

      There's currently a poll running on [Syndication] regarding a
      couple of possible ways of doing such a rename. Dave Winer is
      calling for complete renames on both sides with neither using
      RSS anywhere in the name. Others, concerned about losing
      momentum and creating even more confusion, are favouring a
      shared name a la XMLNews, something like: RSS-Simple and
      RSS-Semantic (the bits after the - to be determined later).

      The poll reads as follows:

      """
      RSS has a long and varied history; noone (except possibly
      Netscape, who don't seem to care) can claim to 'own' the name.
      There are Two current, somewhat separate RSS formats; RSS
      0.9x, based on the later work from Netscape, and RSS 1.0,
      based on the original, RSS 0.9. This has caused problems in
      the RSS developer community, and is perceived to cause
      problems in the RSS user community, especially as
      evangelization efforts try to move forward. The proper course of
      action has been the subject of much debate; this poll is intended
      to express the will of the content syndication community, whether
      developer, publisher and end user, in the resolution of this
      issue.
      """

      I ask you please to take a moment, head over to

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/surveys?id=690145

      and make yourself heard.

      Of course this poll is advisory to subsequent decisions that
      would need to be made here on RSS-DEV by the Interest and
      Working Groups. But I believe this is a step forward for the
      community at large and may go a long way to building bridges
      across the rift between the two RSS branches.

      Onward and upward,

      Rael
    • Dave Winer
      Let s put it another way.. Most of the people who participated in the previous poll gave a thumbs up to the proposed roadmap I posted which said clearly that,
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 3, 2001
        Let's put it another way..

        Most of the people who participated in the previous poll gave a thumbs up to
        the proposed roadmap I posted which said clearly that, among other things,
        the RSS name would only be used for 0.91, that 0.90 would be deprecated, and
        that the new names for the two continuing branches would not contain the
        letters "SS" in their names.

        Now Rael insisted that the Syndication list be polled too, so it's kind of
        unfair for you guys to participate in their poll, but if you want to, I
        suppose it's going to happen.

        Sorry if this isn't perfectly worded, I'm not a lawyer, and I have bad cold,
        and I'm also really tired of fighting for the right for RSS to be what it
        already is -- a simple syndication format. The people I work with have
        already overwhelmingly agreed to suffer the same pain that you guys also
        pretty much agreed to. You shouldn't really be voting in this poll, and Rael
        ought not be lobbying you if it's to be meaningful.

        What ever..

        Dave



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <rael@...>
        To: <rss-dev@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:29 PM
        Subject: [RSS-DEV] IMPORTANT: RSS by any other name...


        > Howdy Folks,
        >
        > There's been much discussion going on on the [Syndication]
        > mailing list about clearing up possible confusions associated
        > with there being two RSSs (1.0 and 0.9x) and bringing the
        > community together behind RSS in some manner.
        >
        > There's currently a poll running on [Syndication] regarding a
        > couple of possible ways of doing such a rename. Dave Winer is
        > calling for complete renames on both sides with neither using
        > RSS anywhere in the name. Others, concerned about losing
        > momentum and creating even more confusion, are favouring a
        > shared name a la XMLNews, something like: RSS-Simple and
        > RSS-Semantic (the bits after the - to be determined later).
        >
        > The poll reads as follows:
        >
        > """
        > RSS has a long and varied history; noone (except possibly
        > Netscape, who don't seem to care) can claim to 'own' the name.
        > There are Two current, somewhat separate RSS formats; RSS
        > 0.9x, based on the later work from Netscape, and RSS 1.0,
        > based on the original, RSS 0.9. This has caused problems in
        > the RSS developer community, and is perceived to cause
        > problems in the RSS user community, especially as
        > evangelization efforts try to move forward. The proper course of
        > action has been the subject of much debate; this poll is intended
        > to express the will of the content syndication community, whether
        > developer, publisher and end user, in the resolution of this
        > issue.
        > """
        >
        > I ask you please to take a moment, head over to
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/surveys?id=690145
        >
        > and make yourself heard.
        >
        > Of course this poll is advisory to subsequent decisions that
        > would need to be made here on RSS-DEV by the Interest and
        > Working Groups. But I believe this is a step forward for the
        > community at large and may go a long way to building bridges
        > across the rift between the two RSS branches.
        >
        > Onward and upward,
        >
        > Rael
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > rss-dev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • rael@oreilly.com
        ... thumbs up to The poll you thought was biased, mind you. ... other things, ... deprecated, and ... contain the ... kind of ... Dave, either you really still
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
          --- In rss-dev@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
          > Let's put it another way..
          >
          > Most of the people who participated in the previous poll gave a
          thumbs up to

          The poll you thought was biased, mind you.

          > the proposed roadmap I posted which said clearly that, among
          other things,
          > the RSS name would only be used for 0.91, that 0.90 would be
          deprecated, and
          > that the new names for the two continuing branches would not
          contain the
          > letters "SS" in their names.
          >
          > Now Rael insisted that the Syndication list be polled too, so it's
          kind of
          > unfair for you guys to participate in their poll, but if you want to, I
          > suppose it's going to happen.

          Dave, either you really still don't get it or you're just plain full of
          nonsense.

          The idea was to have a poll on neutral ground (Syndication)
          across the RSS community (both 0.9x and 1.0). A well phrased
          and balanced poll written neither by myself nor Dave. This is
          why I specifically asked Mark Nottingham, owner of the
          Syndication list, to create and run the poll. If there's any place
          where one finds folks from all camps, it's on that list.

          > You shouldn't really be voting in this poll, and Rael
          > ought not be lobbying you if it's to be meaningful.

          Hogwash! So you're not voting in the poll, Dave? And neither are
          any of the members of your reallySimpleSyndication list or
          Userland? I certainly hope that's not the case since that was the
          whole point of it all in the first place.

          As for the lobbying bit, while I do have my opinions on the
          proposed rename, I am, as usual, certainly not asking you folks
          to vote anything other than your own opinions. This is just a
          rather important vote for all concerned and I wanted to make
          sure everyone was heard.

          Dave, your suspicions speak volumes. You're obviously not
          familiar with the way we do things around here; dissenting
          opinions are always welcomed, carefully considered, and
          incorporated into any decision-making we have before us.

          So go vote your conscience and let's move on with this peace
          process.

          Rael
        • rael@oreilly.com
          And speaking of lobbying... Some more friendly advice for members of the Syndication mail list, please vote for option #2 in the current poll to create
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
            And speaking of lobbying...

            """
            Some more friendly advice for members of the Syndication mail list,
            please vote for option #2 in the current poll to create lots of room
            for innovation in XML-based content syndication formats for the Web.
            """
            (www.scripting.com)

            Pity.

            Rael

            --- In rss-dev@y..., rael@o... wrote:
            > --- In rss-dev@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
            > > Let's put it another way..
            > >
            > > Most of the people who participated in the previous poll gave a
            > thumbs up to
            >
            > The poll you thought was biased, mind you.
            >
            > > the proposed roadmap I posted which said clearly that, among
            > other things,
            > > the RSS name would only be used for 0.91, that 0.90 would be
            > deprecated, and
            > > that the new names for the two continuing branches would not
            > contain the
            > > letters "SS" in their names.
            > >
            > > Now Rael insisted that the Syndication list be polled too, so
            it's
            > kind of
            > > unfair for you guys to participate in their poll, but if you want
            to, I
            > > suppose it's going to happen.
            >
            > Dave, either you really still don't get it or you're just plain
            full of
            > nonsense.
            >
            > The idea was to have a poll on neutral ground (Syndication)
            > across the RSS community (both 0.9x and 1.0). A well phrased
            > and balanced poll written neither by myself nor Dave. This is
            > why I specifically asked Mark Nottingham, owner of the
            > Syndication list, to create and run the poll. If there's any place
            > where one finds folks from all camps, it's on that list.
            >
            > > You shouldn't really be voting in this poll, and Rael
            > > ought not be lobbying you if it's to be meaningful.
            >
            > Hogwash! So you're not voting in the poll, Dave? And neither are
            > any of the members of your reallySimpleSyndication list or
            > Userland? I certainly hope that's not the case since that was the
            > whole point of it all in the first place.
            >
            > As for the lobbying bit, while I do have my opinions on the
            > proposed rename, I am, as usual, certainly not asking you folks
            > to vote anything other than your own opinions. This is just a
            > rather important vote for all concerned and I wanted to make
            > sure everyone was heard.
            >
            > Dave, your suspicions speak volumes. You're obviously not
            > familiar with the way we do things around here; dissenting
            > opinions are always welcomed, carefully considered, and
            > incorporated into any decision-making we have before us.
            >
            > So go vote your conscience and let's move on with this peace
            > process.
            >
            > Rael
          • Dingley, Andy
            ... Sorry, but no. I joined RSS-DEV before Yahoo embraced and extended egroups. This is the one remaining egroups list I m still part of, Yahoo s fast-buck
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
              > I ask you please to take a moment, head over to
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/surveys?id=690145
              >
              > and make yourself heard.

              Sorry, but no.

              I joined RSS-DEV before Yahoo "embraced and extended" egroups. This is the
              one remaining egroups list I'm still part of, Yahoo's fast-buck approach
              having driven me off everything else. I'm prepared to keep using it as a
              mailing list, but there's no way I'm going to start having to log in to
              their "communities" snakepit -- for one thing, I get quite enough spam from
              yahoo and its users as it is.

              For a decision of the order of "Who owns RSS", I just don't regard a
              Yahoo-hosted poll as being an appropriate forum (even ignoring the "which
              list" question).


              BTW - I don't see why "RSS 1.0" and "RSS 0.9x" can't co-exist, and I
              certainly wouldn't like to see any group with a fair claim on using this
              _brand_ relinquish it to become Dave Winer's personal fiefdom (which as a
              strictly personal opinion, is what I regard the the 0.9x direction as
              being). "RSS" now has commercial value, and ownership of it is a matter of
              no little significance.


              ...and if it's disclaimer time, this post is wearing my codesmiths.com hat
              (which I can express the corporate opinions of), not my HP Labs hat.
            • Dave Winer
              Amazing double-standard, first you lobby this list and then have the gall to object when I point to it. Breath-taking. In any case, I took the note down a few
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                Amazing double-standard, first you lobby this list and then have the gall to
                object when I point to it. Breath-taking. In any case, I took the note down
                a few minutes before you posted here. Try reloading and save the piety. Dave


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <rael@...>
                To: <rss-dev@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:42 AM
                Subject: [RSS-DEV] Re: IMPORTANT: RSS by any other name...


                > And speaking of lobbying...
                >
                > """
                > Some more friendly advice for members of the Syndication mail list,
                > please vote for option #2 in the current poll to create lots of room
                > for innovation in XML-based content syndication formats for the Web.
                > """
                > (www.scripting.com)
                >
                > Pity.
                >
                > Rael
                >
                > --- In rss-dev@y..., rael@o... wrote:
                > > --- In rss-dev@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                > > > Let's put it another way..
                > > >
                > > > Most of the people who participated in the previous poll gave a
                > > thumbs up to
                > >
                > > The poll you thought was biased, mind you.
                > >
                > > > the proposed roadmap I posted which said clearly that, among
                > > other things,
                > > > the RSS name would only be used for 0.91, that 0.90 would be
                > > deprecated, and
                > > > that the new names for the two continuing branches would not
                > > contain the
                > > > letters "SS" in their names.
                > > >
                > > > Now Rael insisted that the Syndication list be polled too, so
                > it's
                > > kind of
                > > > unfair for you guys to participate in their poll, but if you want
                > to, I
                > > > suppose it's going to happen.
                > >
                > > Dave, either you really still don't get it or you're just plain
                > full of
                > > nonsense.
                > >
                > > The idea was to have a poll on neutral ground (Syndication)
                > > across the RSS community (both 0.9x and 1.0). A well phrased
                > > and balanced poll written neither by myself nor Dave. This is
                > > why I specifically asked Mark Nottingham, owner of the
                > > Syndication list, to create and run the poll. If there's any place
                > > where one finds folks from all camps, it's on that list.
                > >
                > > > You shouldn't really be voting in this poll, and Rael
                > > > ought not be lobbying you if it's to be meaningful.
                > >
                > > Hogwash! So you're not voting in the poll, Dave? And neither are
                > > any of the members of your reallySimpleSyndication list or
                > > Userland? I certainly hope that's not the case since that was the
                > > whole point of it all in the first place.
                > >
                > > As for the lobbying bit, while I do have my opinions on the
                > > proposed rename, I am, as usual, certainly not asking you folks
                > > to vote anything other than your own opinions. This is just a
                > > rather important vote for all concerned and I wanted to make
                > > sure everyone was heard.
                > >
                > > Dave, your suspicions speak volumes. You're obviously not
                > > familiar with the way we do things around here; dissenting
                > > opinions are always welcomed, carefully considered, and
                > > incorporated into any decision-making we have before us.
                > >
                > > So go vote your conscience and let's move on with this peace
                > > process.
                > >
                > > Rael
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > rss-dev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Brian Aker
                ... I have to say, I already think this is pretty much a waste of time. Let the names stay the same, in the end code will be what wins the day. AKA what is
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                  rael@... wrote:
                  >
                  > And speaking of lobbying...
                  >
                  > """
                  > Some more friendly advice for members of the Syndication mail list,
                  > please vote for option #2 in the current poll to create lots of room
                  > for innovation in XML-based content syndication formats for the Web.
                  > """
                  > (www.scripting.com)
                  I have to say, I already think this is pretty much a waste of
                  time. Let the names stay the same, in the end code will be what
                  wins the day. AKA what is supported will be what is used.

                  I watch slashdot's polls and they are worthless. Polls on the net
                  are for fun, you can not use them for any valid purpose. It
                  it far to simple to rig them (hell, get enough sites to just
                  post this as a story and you will get a ton of worthless opinions).

                  BTW I voted against changing the name. A number of groups
                  have already started to support RSS 1.0. Changing names midstream
                  just confuses people and typically leads to lost momentum. Just
                  drop the polls, let people complain about the names and
                  work on what is needed.
                  Stuff like this is just a time waster, don't let yourself
                  get sucked in.

                  -Brian
                  --
                  _______________________________________________________
                  Brian Aker, brian@...
                  Slashdot Senior Developer
                  Seattle, Washington
                  http://tangent.org/~brian/
                  http://slashdot.org/
                  _______________________________________________________
                  You can't grep a dead tree.
                • Dave Winer
                  ... This is why, once this issue has been resolved, I m getting out of RSS work. It s a nasty little place. Dave
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                    >>Dave Winer's personal fiefdom

                    This is why, once this issue has been resolved, I'm getting out of RSS work.

                    It's a nasty little place.

                    Dave
                  • Dingley, Andy
                    ... I m sorry if you object to the term, Dave, but this piece of tech is too important for it to become _anyone s_ personal property. There are groups putting
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                      > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                      > >>Dave Winer's personal fiefdom

                      I'm sorry if you object to the term, Dave, but this piece of tech is too
                      important for it to become _anyone's_ personal property. There are groups
                      putting fairly big money into RSS-related work (0.9, 1.0 and 0.9x) and any
                      attempt to start retro-actively claiming ownership of it is going to end in
                      a big slapfest with our friends in the sharkskin suits.

                      As a STRICTLY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT, I regard the 0.9x development as being far
                      too self-obsessed for its own good. There's no point in being more specific,
                      lest this turn into a Usenet-style flamewar, but just assume I'm no great
                      fan of it.


                      RSS 2.0 is cool. Now doesn't that seem to keep everyone happy ?



                      (disclaimer again - this ain't HP's mud I'm slinging)
                    • Rael Dornfest
                      ... The obfuscation really isn t just in your writing, is it? You honestly don t seem to understand the difference between asking folks to vote on an issue
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                        > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]

                        > Amazing double-standard, first you lobby this list and then have
                        > the gall to
                        > object when I point to it.

                        The obfuscation really isn't just in your writing, is it? You honestly
                        don't seem to understand the difference between asking folks to vote on an
                        issue and suggesting they vote a particular direction.

                        Rael
                      • Mike Gunderloy
                        I expect I m not the only one who doesn t care to sit through yet another session of wineyness, er, whineyness. I m off to unsubscribe. Someone wake me up when
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                          I expect I'm not the only one who doesn't care to sit through yet
                          another session of wineyness, er, whineyness. I'm off to unsubscribe.
                          Someone wake me up when we get back to discussing RSS, the standard set
                          by the open process, instead of RSS, the feifdom.

                          Mike Gunderloy
                          http://www.larkfarm.com
                        • Dave Winer
                          ... important for it to become _anyone s_ personal property. There are groups putting fairly big money into RSS-related work (0.9, 1.0 and 0.9x) and any
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                            >>I'm sorry if you object to the term, Dave, but this piece of tech is too
                            important for it to become _anyone's_ personal property. There are groups
                            putting fairly big money into RSS-related work (0.9, 1.0 and 0.9x) and any
                            attempt to start retro-actively claiming ownership of it is going to end in
                            a big slapfest with our friends in the sharkskin suits.

                            My company happens to be one of the companies that put "fairly big money"
                            into RSS. Now you're beginning to understand what the issue is and why the
                            style of competition exemplified by "RSS 1.0" is so totally unacceptable. It
                            was unilateral, organized off-list, and never had any kind of approval from
                            the members of the RSS community. What I offered last week was a fairly
                            graceful way out of something that was pretty disgraceful.

                            Dave
                          • Chris Nandor
                            ... I feel the same way; a few years ago I simply swore off contact with Dave. I don t killfile him, but I don t reply to him and rarely read his messages or
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                              At 11:16 -0700 2001.06.04, Mike Gunderloy wrote:
                              >I expect I'm not the only one who doesn't care to sit through yet
                              >another session of wineyness, er, whineyness. I'm off to unsubscribe.
                              >Someone wake me up when we get back to discussing RSS, the standard set
                              >by the open process, instead of RSS, the feifdom.

                              I feel the same way; a few years ago I simply swore off contact with Dave.
                              I don't killfile him, but I don't reply to him and rarely read his messages
                              or replies to his messages. I have a feeling this storm should blow over
                              soon, and I suggest you just wait it out.

                              --
                              Chris Nandor pudge@... http://pudge.net/
                              Open Source Development Network pudge@... http://osdn.com/
                            • Dave Winer
                              Look at all the personal crap people drudge up. Amazing how quickly this devolves to that. Shame on you Chris. Dave ... From: Chris Nandor
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                                Look at all the personal crap people drudge up.

                                Amazing how quickly this devolves to that.

                                Shame on you Chris.

                                Dave


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Chris Nandor" <pudge@...>
                                To: <rss-dev@yahoogroups.com>
                                Cc: "Mike Gunderloy" <MikeG1@...>
                                Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 11:20 AM
                                Subject: RE: [RSS-DEV] Re: IMPORTANT: RSS by any other name...


                                > At 11:16 -0700 2001.06.04, Mike Gunderloy wrote:
                                > >I expect I'm not the only one who doesn't care to sit through yet
                                > >another session of wineyness, er, whineyness. I'm off to unsubscribe.
                                > >Someone wake me up when we get back to discussing RSS, the standard set
                                > >by the open process, instead of RSS, the feifdom.
                                >
                                > I feel the same way; a few years ago I simply swore off contact with Dave.
                                > I don't killfile him, but I don't reply to him and rarely read his
                                messages
                                > or replies to his messages. I have a feeling this storm should blow over
                                > soon, and I suggest you just wait it out.
                                >
                                > --
                                > Chris Nandor pudge@... http://pudge.net/
                                > Open Source Development Network pudge@... http://osdn.com/
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > rss-dev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                              • Dingley, Andy
                                ... Granted. Userland worked with RSS 0.9 when no-one else (and certainly not Netscape) was interested in it. Credit where it s due. ... _What_ competition ?
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                                  Dave Winer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > My company happens to be one of the companies that put "fairly big money"
                                  > into RSS.

                                  Granted. Userland worked with RSS 0.9 when no-one else (and certainly not
                                  Netscape) was interested in it. Credit where it's due.


                                  > Now you're beginning to understand what the issue is and why the
                                  > style of competition exemplified by "RSS 1.0" is so totally unacceptable.

                                  _What_ competition ? RSS 1.0 does its own thing, and has never tried to
                                  mandate anything concerned with anything not calling itself "RSS 1.0". RSS
                                  0.9x exists, and (speaking as a day-to-day RDF developer) it's a good thing
                                  too - an RDF based _anything_ hasn't been ready to fly until very recently,
                                  whereas useful XML apps. could be rolled out a few years ago.



                                  There are just two issues I object to:

                                  Any attempt to mandate "an RSS *.* group MUST / MUST NOT use RDF" (either
                                  choice, by any group)

                                  "RSS !=n" must stop calling itself RSS, because "RSS n" 'owns' the name.

                                  If RSS 0.9x wants to continue pushing the (XML / no RDF) route, then I
                                  certainly don't have a problem with that.
                                  Translation is easy enough, after all.
                                • dave.cantrell@gunter.af.mil
                                  ... Sure, except then 1.0 won t be able to expand through versions any higher than 1.999, just like 1.0 did to 0.9x, creating a new format with the same name
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 4, 2001
                                    >I'm sorry if you object to the term, Dave, but this piece of tech is too
                                    >important for it to become _anyone's_ personal property. There are groups
                                    >putting fairly big money into RSS-related work (0.9, 1.0 and 0.9x) and any
                                    >attempt to start retro-actively claiming ownership of it is going to end in
                                    >a big slapfest with our friends in the sharkskin suits.
                                    >
                                    ....
                                    >RSS 2.0 is cool. Now doesn't that seem to keep everyone happy ?

                                    Sure, except then 1.0 won't be able to expand through versions any higher
                                    than 1.999, just like 1.0 did to 0.9x, creating a new format with the same
                                    name without consulting the "earlier" format's development teams, and we'd
                                    be having more polls and more discussion and more committee voting and not a
                                    damn bit of real work being done...
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