Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: The Terms Podcast and Podcasting

Expand Messages
  • Randy Morin
    I second and will initiate the discussion. My understanding is that Apple is standing on firm legal ground when they try to protect their iPod trademark.
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 27, 2006
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      I second and will initiate the discussion.

      My understanding is that Apple is standing on firm legal ground when
      they try to protect their iPod trademark. Podcast was clearly derived
      from the term iPod and therefor the community at large made a big
      trademark error. This fight might be unwinnable.

      There is a win-lose, where Apple pays for being this stupid. Let's
      make up a word to use instead of podcasting and rebrand. It'll create
      initial confusion, I admit, but Apple will lose the word-of-mouth
      marketing machine that bloggers created for it.
      MHO,

      Randy Charles Morin
      http://www.kbcafe.com/rss



      --- In rss-board@yahoogroups.com, "rcade" <cadenhead@...> wrote:
      >
      > Since the terms were first coined in 2004, the words "podcast" and
      > "podcasting" have been used generically to refer to audio or video
      > files delivered as RSS enclosures.
      >
      > This usage became so popular that "podcasting" was declared the 2005
      > word of the year by the editors of the New Oxford American
      Dictionary. [1]
      >
      > That dictionary defines the term as "a digital recording of a radio
      > broadcast or similar program, made available on the Internet for
      > downloading to a personal audio player."
      >
      > In recent weeks, Apple Computer has begun to object to some uses of
      > the term "podcast" as possible violations of its iPod trademark [2].
      >
      > I'd like to propose that the RSS Advisory Board affirm our strong
      > belief that the terms podcast and podcasting refer generically to
      > enclosure-delivered audio and video broadcasts and should not be
      > claimed as exclusive trademarks by any entity.
      >
      > Additionally, the board will gather and publish evidence of generic
      > use of these terms for the use of trademark examiners and anyone
      else
      > researching their use.
      >
      > If this proposal has a second, a one-week discussion of the proposal
      > will be followed by a one-week vote.
      >
      > 1: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2BA62BDD
      > 2: http://makeashorterlink.com/?M1DA21BDD
      >
    • Greg Smith
      In the early days, iPodder.org was retargeted as indiepodder.org, the iPodder the program was retargeted as Juice reciever and podcasting was interpreted
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 27, 2006
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        In the early days, iPodder.org was retargeted as
        indiepodder.org, the iPodder the program was
        retargeted as "Juice reciever" and "podcasting" was
        interpreted as "Personal On Demand".

        Wikipedia says this: The term gained wide popularity
        as a portmanteau of iPod and broadcasting, but was
        seen before that as an acronym for "portable on
        demand".

        Much to my dismay, I have seen it written that Apple
        coined "podcast". ARRGGHH! This is absolutely not
        true.

        It appears there are several strategies including
        1) make noise about it, referencing early definitions.

        2) Make noise about a new term.

        3) Attempt to understand the law and talk to the
        receivers of the letters to understand the exact
        nature of Apples complaint, rather than rely on
        third-party reports.

        I would vote for 3, then likely 1 (depending on how
        "winnable" a fight would seem).

        I would think press releases on the order of "Apple is
        destroying "Podcasting" might help get the word out
        among geeks, but among the rest of the population, I'm
        not sure.

        http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/trade_defin.htm

        For reference "A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol
        or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols
        or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the
        source of the goods of one party from those of
        others."

        IANAL, and it is my understanding that trademarks are
        intended to prevent confusion in the marketplace about
        the source of a product. Unfortunately, given Apple's
        (smart) early embracing of podcasting in iTunes for
        the iPod, prior to most people even hearing the term,
        they have certainly not dissuaded the confusion. This
        is even more exacerbated by some sites with a picture
        of an iPod talking about podcasting.

        Greg Smith


        --- Randy Morin <randy@...> wrote:

        > I second and will initiate the discussion.
        >
        > My understanding is that Apple is standing on firm
        > legal ground when
        > they try to protect their iPod trademark. Podcast
        > was clearly derived
        > from the term iPod and therefor the community at
        > large made a big
        > trademark error. This fight might be unwinnable.
        >
        > There is a win-lose, where Apple pays for being this
        > stupid. Let's
        > make up a word to use instead of podcasting and
        > rebrand. It'll create
        > initial confusion, I admit, but Apple will lose the
        > word-of-mouth
        > marketing machine that bloggers created for it.
        > MHO,
        >
        > Randy Charles Morin
        > http://www.kbcafe.com/rss
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In rss-board@yahoogroups.com, "rcade"
        > <cadenhead@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Since the terms were first coined in 2004, the
        > words "podcast" and
        > > "podcasting" have been used generically to refer
        > to audio or video
        > > files delivered as RSS enclosures.
        > >
        > > This usage became so popular that "podcasting" was
        > declared the 2005
        > > word of the year by the editors of the New Oxford
        > American
        > Dictionary. [1]
        > >
        > > That dictionary defines the term as "a digital
        > recording of a radio
        > > broadcast or similar program, made available on
        > the Internet for
        > > downloading to a personal audio player."
        > >
        > > In recent weeks, Apple Computer has begun to
        > object to some uses of
        > > the term "podcast" as possible violations of its
        > iPod trademark [2].
        > >
        > > I'd like to propose that the RSS Advisory Board
        > affirm our strong
        > > belief that the terms podcast and podcasting refer
        > generically to
        > > enclosure-delivered audio and video broadcasts and
        > should not be
        > > claimed as exclusive trademarks by any entity.
        > >
        > > Additionally, the board will gather and publish
        > evidence of generic
        > > use of these terms for the use of trademark
        > examiners and anyone
        > else
        > > researching their use.
        > >
        > > If this proposal has a second, a one-week
        > discussion of the proposal
        > > will be followed by a one-week vote.
        > >
        > > 1: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2BA62BDD
        > > 2: http://makeashorterlink.com/?M1DA21BDD
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Rogers Cadenhead
        I just found an Aug. 29 letter from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office rejecting an attempt to trademark podcast because it s a generic term:
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 27, 2006
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          I just found an Aug. 29 letter from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office rejecting an attempt to trademark "podcast" because it's a generic term:

          http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/3027


        • Randy Morin
          Wikipedia is a great source of misinformation. Podcasting was coined shortly after the less glamourous iPod Platform, which was being worked on my Winer and
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 27, 2006
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Wikipedia is a great source of misinformation. Podcasting was coined
            shortly after the less glamourous iPod Platform, which was being
            worked on my Winer and Curry. It did not come from "Personal On
            Demand." That's likely someone trying to change history.
            That's my recollection,

            Randy Charles Morin
            http://www.kbcafe.com/rss

            --- In rss-board@yahoogroups.com, Greg Smith <ecomputerd@...> wrote:
            >
            > In the early days, iPodder.org was retargeted as
            > indiepodder.org, the iPodder the program was
            > retargeted as "Juice reciever" and "podcasting" was
            > interpreted as "Personal On Demand".
            >
            > Wikipedia says this: The term gained wide popularity
            > as a portmanteau of iPod and broadcasting, but was
            > seen before that as an acronym for "portable on
            > demand".
            >
            > Much to my dismay, I have seen it written that Apple
            > coined "podcast". ARRGGHH! This is absolutely not
            > true.
            >
            > It appears there are several strategies including
            > 1) make noise about it, referencing early definitions.
            >
            > 2) Make noise about a new term.
            >
            > 3) Attempt to understand the law and talk to the
            > receivers of the letters to understand the exact
            > nature of Apples complaint, rather than rely on
            > third-party reports.
            >
            > I would vote for 3, then likely 1 (depending on how
            > "winnable" a fight would seem).
            >
            > I would think press releases on the order of "Apple is
            > destroying "Podcasting" might help get the word out
            > among geeks, but among the rest of the population, I'm
            > not sure.
            >
            > http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/trade_defin.htm
            >
            > For reference "A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol
            > or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols
            > or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the
            > source of the goods of one party from those of
            > others."
            >
            > IANAL, and it is my understanding that trademarks are
            > intended to prevent confusion in the marketplace about
            > the source of a product. Unfortunately, given Apple's
            > (smart) early embracing of podcasting in iTunes for
            > the iPod, prior to most people even hearing the term,
            > they have certainly not dissuaded the confusion. This
            > is even more exacerbated by some sites with a picture
            > of an iPod talking about podcasting.
            >
            > Greg Smith
            >
            >
          • Greg Smith
            Randy, Agreed. My recollection is similar to yours (though I don t specifically remember iPod Platform ). Personal On Demand and the renaming of iPodder.org
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 27, 2006
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Randy,

              Agreed. My recollection is similar to yours (though I
              don't specifically remember "iPod Platform").
              "Personal On Demand" and the renaming of iPodder.org
              and iPodder program occured after some time had
              passed. My impression at the time was that this was to
              avoid any future run in with Apple. Curry, at a
              minimum, was attempting to popularize "Portable On
              Demand" long after Podcasting was coined and became
              known in the geek crowd.

              But really, this may all be unimportant depending on
              exactly what Apple is claiming in its actions.

              Greg Smith

              --- Randy Morin <randy@...> wrote:

              > Wikipedia is a great source of misinformation.
              > Podcasting was coined
              > shortly after the less glamourous iPod Platform,
              > which was being
              > worked on my Winer and Curry. It did not come from
              > "Personal On
              > Demand." That's likely someone trying to change
              > history.
              > That's my recollection,
              >
              > Randy Charles Morin
              > http://www.kbcafe.com/rss
              >
              > --- In rss-board@yahoogroups.com, Greg Smith
              > <ecomputerd@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > In the early days, iPodder.org was retargeted as
              > > indiepodder.org, the iPodder the program was
              > > retargeted as "Juice reciever" and "podcasting"
              > was
              > > interpreted as "Personal On Demand".
              > >
              > > Wikipedia says this: The term gained wide
              > popularity
              > > as a portmanteau of iPod and broadcasting, but was
              > > seen before that as an acronym for "portable on
              > > demand".
              > >
              > > Much to my dismay, I have seen it written that
              > Apple
              > > coined "podcast". ARRGGHH! This is absolutely not
              > > true.
              > >
              > > It appears there are several strategies including
              > > 1) make noise about it, referencing early
              > definitions.
              > >
              > > 2) Make noise about a new term.
              > >
              > > 3) Attempt to understand the law and talk to the
              > > receivers of the letters to understand the exact
              > > nature of Apples complaint, rather than rely on
              > > third-party reports.
              > >
              > > I would vote for 3, then likely 1 (depending on
              > how
              > > "winnable" a fight would seem).
              > >
              > > I would think press releases on the order of
              > "Apple is
              > > destroying "Podcasting" might help get the word
              > out
              > > among geeks, but among the rest of the population,
              > I'm
              > > not sure.
              > >
              > >
              >
              http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/trade_defin.htm
              > >
              > > For reference "A trademark is a word, phrase,
              > symbol
              > > or design, or a combination of words, phrases,
              > symbols
              > > or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the
              > > source of the goods of one party from those of
              > > others."
              > >
              > > IANAL, and it is my understanding that trademarks
              > are
              > > intended to prevent confusion in the marketplace
              > about
              > > the source of a product. Unfortunately, given
              > Apple's
              > > (smart) early embracing of podcasting in iTunes
              > for
              > > the iPod, prior to most people even hearing the
              > term,
              > > they have certainly not dissuaded the confusion.
              > This
              > > is even more exacerbated by some sites with a
              > picture
              > > of an iPod talking about podcasting.
              > >
              > > Greg Smith
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Greg Smith
              Just a quick note: if you re going to the Podcast Expo in California this Friday/Saturday, look me up I ll be in the FeederReader booth. Here s my on topic
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 27, 2006
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Just a quick note: if you're going to the Podcast Expo
                in California this Friday/Saturday, look me up I'll be
                in the FeederReader booth.

                Here's my "on topic" part:

                It seems to me after reading the Engadget article,
                that Apple is not claiming anything about "podcast" or
                "podcasting" but they are claiming that "myPodder"
                sounds too much like "iPod". And that "Apple objects
                to 'Podcast Ready' trademark applications which cover
                'portable listening devices' and 'software to manage
                digital content for portable media players,'" though
                they specifically do not object to the generic use of
                the term "podcast" (I think). If I read the article
                correctly, Apple seems to object to the use of
                "Podcast Ready" applications which cover "portable
                listening devices" and "software to manage digital
                content for portable media players". I took this to
                mean they object to the actual phrase "Podcast Ready"
                (this is my presumption, but I don't know if it is
                correct).

                So I'm not sure if there's anything here for us to
                actually do.

                As far as coming out and saying "podcast" and
                "podcasting" are generic terms. Great! It seems Apple
                agrees with that already. But does that affect any
                claims on trademarks that sound like "iPod" or refer
                to "portable media devices".

                One thing that's not clear from the article is whether
                Apple is claiming anything that has "pod" in the name
                and refers to "portable listening devices" or"software
                to manage digital content for portable media players".
                If Apple had their way (given my presumption!) this
                would preclude any trademarking of "podcast" or
                "podcasting" within a name for software or devices
                designed for portable media playing. This seems
                similar to "Coca Cola" objecting to "RC Cola" or
                "Pepsi Cola" because they all contain "Cola" and, if
                my presumption is correct, seems like an absurd claim
                by Apple.

                Do these observations help move us along to any sort
                of resolution?

                Greg Smith

                --- rcade <cadenhead@...> wrote:

                In recent weeks, Apple Computer has begun to object to
                some uses of
                the term "podcast" as possible violations of its iPod
                trademark [2].

                I'd like to propose that the RSS Advisory Board affirm
                our strong
                belief that the terms podcast and podcasting refer
                generically to
                enclosure-delivered audio and video broadcasts and
                should not be
                claimed as exclusive trademarks by any entity.


                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • rcade
                ... Thanks. I hope that other board members will let us know when they re going to upcoming conferences or launching new products and services, because I d
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 28, 2006
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In rss-board@yahoogroups.com, Greg Smith <ecomputerd@...> wrote:
                  > Just a quick note: if you're going to the Podcast Expo
                  > in California this Friday/Saturday, look me up I'll be
                  > in the FeederReader booth.

                  Thanks. I hope that other board members will let us know when they're
                  going to upcoming conferences or launching new products and services,
                  because I'd like to note that on our blog.

                  > So I'm not sure if there's anything here for us to
                  > actually do.

                  We're not equipped to make legal distinctions, but my thinking is that
                  by documenting the generic use of "podcast" and "podcasting" since the
                  terms were coined, the board can serve as a resource for any future
                  trademark examinations related to those terms. (This would be similar
                  to documenting prior art in a patent situation.)

                  We also can help reinforce the use of these two terms by the public to
                  describe enclosure-based media publishing.

                  Though an Apple official said the company does not object to
                  "podcast," the opposition to the "Podcast Ready" trademark appears to
                  suggest otherwise.

                  I'm not unsympathetic to Apple's attempt to protect its iPod trademark
                  -- products like MyPodder and the since-renamed Ipodder podcast client
                  do seem confusingly similar in my opinion -- but podcast has become
                  too popular as a generic term in the last two years for it to be
                  claimed today as an infringement.

                  A Yahoo/Ipsos Insight poll in October 2005 [1] found that 28% of
                  Internet users are aware of podcasting. Rechristening it "netcasting"
                  or something else -- as Randy has suggested on his blog -- drops that
                  awareness back down to 0.

                  1: http://publisher.yahoo.com/rss/RSS_whitePaper1004.pdf
                • rcade
                  ... As the proponent, I m withdrawing this proposal before the vote begins. I d like to see whether alternate terms such as netcasting and feedcasting gain any
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 3, 2006
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In rss-board@yahoogroups.com, "rcade" <cadenhead@...> wrote:
                    > I'd like to propose that the RSS Advisory Board affirm our strong
                    > belief that the terms podcast and podcasting refer generically to
                    > enclosure-delivered audio and video broadcasts and should not be
                    > claimed as exclusive trademarks by any entity.
                    >
                    > Additionally, the board will gather and publish evidence of generic
                    > use of these terms for the use of trademark examiners and anyone else
                    > researching their use.

                    As the proponent, I'm withdrawing this proposal before the vote
                    begins. I'd like to see whether alternate terms such as netcasting and
                    feedcasting gain any traction.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.