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[Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!

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  • Frank Valentin
    Hi Nandan, no problem, i can wait for a good beer! Btw, i took a chance and mounted my new coil and flasher-unit inside the toolbox. Do you think it is risky
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 31, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Nandan,
      no problem, i can wait for a good beer!
      Btw, i took a chance and mounted my new coil and flasher-unit inside
      the toolbox. Do you think it is risky for the coil? Does it build up a
      lot of heat?
      Regards
      Frank


      gurunandan <gurunandan9-@...> wrote:
      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/royalenfield/?start=3055
      > Hi, Kevin!
      > Welcome aboard!
      >
      > Don't hesitate to voice a "non-conformist" opinion!
      >
      > To give you the background in brief:
      >
      > Most of us feel the Bullet electrics "sucks"!
      > { While we all *love* Bullets, not all of us
      > exactly worship the manufacturer. :-) }
      >
      > Personally, I am rather against shunt regulation.
      > Indeed, I am not for pmnt-magnet alternators at all:
      > I feel, poor charge at low rpm + hot regulator
      > at speed, perpetually, is too high a price for the
      > sake of starting with flat battery.
      > Esply considering it would hardly ever come to that
      > if the alternator was functioning as it should!
      >
      > There is considerable difference in the electrics
      > depending on the local laws and conditions.
      >
      > According to all reports, the latest Bullets
      > are being "upgraded" to the seperate
      > Lighting & Running coils system !
      > (Time-Machine invented in Jaipur, India! ?)
      >
      > OK, to get back to the current case:
      > ________________________________________________1
      > |
      > | _________________________________2
      > | | |
      > | | |
      > C C C
      > C1 C3 C5
      > C C C
      > | | |
      > | | |
      > | | |
      > | | |
      > C C C
      > C2 C4 C6
      > C C C
      > | | |
      > |______________|_______________|__________________3
      >
      > This is the circuit of my stator.
      > Coils 1&2 are opposite each-other, 3&4, 5&6 ditto.
      >
      > Leads 1&3 are always connected to rectifier.
      > Lead 2 is:
      > shorted to lead 3 (by h/l sw) when off;
      > floating with p/l on;
      > connected to lead 1 when h/l is on.
      >
      > {Frank, I thought you had swapped leads 2 & 3. }
      >
      > Now, Bill, (perhaps you have also traced the ckt)
      > This is what I was trying to say:
      >
      > a) Add P + Q turns to all coils
      > (Or remove P, add Q+R, you know what I mean)
      >
      > ____________________1 - Sickeningly Slow Traffic
      > |
      > C___________________1'- Traffic
      > C___________________1"- Highway
      > C
      > C
      > |
      > (and get 6 extra leads!)
      >
      > b) Add 2P + 2Q turns to 2,4,6
      > (and get two extra leads)
      >
      > A practical problem with (b) is that there is not
      > much space for a lot of extra turns!
      > Maybe we add turns to 1,3,5 also, but tap only 2,4,6.
      > Hmmm.
      > Looks like I have to invest in another stator for
      > these experiments! They threaten to be long-drawn-out.
      >
      > Kevin, have you come across any other type of
      > regulation? Apart from Zener? If you would pl take the
      > trouble of elaborating....
      >
      > Regards,
      > Nandan.
      >
      > {Frank, I trust you don't mind waiting till the
      > weekend
      > for our e-party! We drink only water on weekdays :-) }
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Kevin Sandford
      > <kevinsandford@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello guys.I,ve just joined this group,so excuse me
      > > intruding,but can I put
      > > in my offering?
      > > Three wires from the alternator stator does not make
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
      > http://im.yahoo.com
    • Kevin Sandford
      Hello Bill, When you say the coils are shorted,are you saying that the two ends of the coil are joined to a common point,or each coil is joined in a
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Bill,
        When you say the coils are shorted,are you saying that the two ends of the
        coil are joined to a common point,or each coil is joined"in a string"with
        the adjacent coil?If they really are indidually shorted,then they are having
        no input to the generation,and this would seem to be a good place to start
        if greater output is required.However,your asertion that it has been done to
        reduce the magnetic flux in the stator,doesn't make sense to me I'm afraid.
        The magnetic flux is produced by the permanent magnets in the rotor;this
        rotating magnetic field induces an EMF in the stator coils,which by linking
        them together,results in a useable electrical supply for the bike.Why would
        any manufacturer wish to reduce the electrical capacity of thier
        vehicles,which are,after all,far more marketable with efficient
        lights,indicators,reliable starting etc.The coils would not have been
        shorted to improve reliability,the stator is inherently reliable,and all
        other designs work with the full six coils,don't they?
        Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output.My advice
        would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
        manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven formulae,ie it
        will already be giving optimum preformance.
        There's an saying in Engineering Design "nothing's for nothing,and every
        thing's for a reason"This means in this instance,that if the designer in
        Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil costing
        $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,and saved his company a
        fortune.But of course he didn't,because this coil doesn't exist,and the one
        he did fit was a compromise betwwen cost,output and physical size.Someone
        mentioned today about the Lucas 180w 3 phase alternator-this is a quantum
        leap in bike alternators,more efficient,etc but rather expensive.Well,there
        you go,that old trade-off again!Incidentally,to fit this part you would need
        a 3-phase rectifier etc,so its not a direct replacement even if it would fit
        on the studs and on the mainshaft.
        Also Bill you were asking about the voltage across the coil.What I meant was
        the voltage across the open-circuited ends of the alternator stator when the
        engine is running at normal speed.
        On reading what I have written,it does sound rather negative.I didn't mean
        it to come out like that,but the RE bike is built for a Third World
        market,and as such,strikes a good balance in the
        "cheapness/reliability/simplicity/performance"ratio.Any improvements,which
        were effective and cheap,and didn't compromise reliability,would have been
        done by Madras,agreed?
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
        To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:36 AM
        Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!


        > Hello Nandan,
        >
        > Love your graphics! As you have probably seen by now, my stator is
        > decidedly differently connected internally. It took a bit of poking at the
        > wires to see exactly where they were going. I can only surmise that the
        > difference is due to the fact we run with our lights on, and therefore
        have
        > a much more constant load on the electrics.
        >
        > I think their reason for shorting some of the coils is simply to reduce
        the
        > magnetic flux in the stator to further reduce the output of the remaining
        > coils. The fact this does not seem to hurt the coils, indicates the
        current
        > generated is much less than the max. current for that size of wire. For
        that
        > reason it is understandable there are very few failures of the stator.
        This
        > may also be an early warning that my idea of increasing the output current
        > by using a heavier wire may not have much result.
        >
        > I agree that shunt regulation is not the most desirable, if only for the
        > heat developed. There is an other way, series regulation. Once I have some
        > idea of the magnitude of the current to be regulated, I will consult with
        a
        > buddy of mine who is much more knowledgeable on this stuff than I am. It
        > also happens that he owes me one :-). Based on this, I am still interested

        > on working with the delta configuration, since it would yield the highest
        > possible current output.
        >
        > Kevin, in your post you mentioned an output of about 60Volts from an open
        > coil. Could you tell me at what RPM and if this is really one coil, or a
        > coil pair?
        >
        > Cheers, BILL
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: gurunandan [mailto:gurunandan92@...]
        > > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:34 PM
        > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
        > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi, Kevin!
        > > Welcome aboard!
        > >
        > > Don't hesitate to voice a "non-conformist" opinion!
        > >
        > > To give you the background in brief:
        > >
        > > Most of us feel the Bullet electrics "sucks"!
        > > { While we all *love* Bullets, not all of us
        > > exactly worship the manufacturer. :-) }
        > >
        > > Personally, I am rather against shunt regulation.
        > > Indeed, I am not for pmnt-magnet alternators at all:
        > > I feel, poor charge at low rpm + hot regulator
        > > at speed, perpetually, is too high a price for the
        > > sake of starting with flat battery.
        > > Esply considering it would hardly ever come to that
        > > if the alternator was functioning as it should!
        > >
        > > There is considerable difference in the electrics
        > > depending on the local laws and conditions.
        > >
        > > According to all reports, the latest Bullets
        > > are being "upgraded" to the seperate
        > > Lighting & Running coils system !
        > > (Time-Machine invented in Jaipur, India! ?)
        > >
        > > OK, to get back to the current case:
        > > ________________________________________________1
        > > |
        > > | _________________________________2
        > > | | |
        > > | | |
        > > C C C
        > > C1 C3 C5
        > > C C C
        > > | | |
        > > | | |
        > > | | |
        > > | | |
        > > C C C
        > > C2 C4 C6
        > > C C C
        > > | | |
        > > |______________|_______________|__________________3
        > >
        > > This is the circuit of my stator.
        > > Coils 1&2 are opposite each-other, 3&4, 5&6 ditto.
        > >
        > > Leads 1&3 are always connected to rectifier.
        > > Lead 2 is:
        > > shorted to lead 3 (by h/l sw) when off;
        > > floating with p/l on;
        > > connected to lead 1 when h/l is on.
        > >
        > > {Frank, I thought you had swapped leads 2 & 3. }
        > >
        > > Now, Bill, (perhaps you have also traced the ckt)
        > > This is what I was trying to say:
        > >
        > > a) Add P + Q turns to all coils
        > > (Or remove P, add Q+R, you know what I mean)
        > >
        > > ____________________1 - Sickeningly Slow Traffic
        > > |
        > > C___________________1'- Traffic
        > > C___________________1"- Highway
        > > C
        > > C
        > > |
        > > (and get 6 extra leads!)
        > >
        > > b) Add 2P + 2Q turns to 2,4,6
        > > (and get two extra leads)
        > >
        > > A practical problem with (b) is that there is not
        > > much space for a lot of extra turns!
        > > Maybe we add turns to 1,3,5 also, but tap only 2,4,6.
        > > Hmmm.
        > > Looks like I have to invest in another stator for
        > > these experiments! They threaten to be long-drawn-out.
        > >
        > > Kevin, have you come across any other type of
        > > regulation? Apart from Zener? If you would pl take the
        > > trouble of elaborating....
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Nandan.
        > >
        > > {Frank, I trust you don't mind waiting till the
        > > weekend
        > > for our e-party! We drink only water on weekdays :-) }
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- Kevin Sandford
        > > <kevinsandford@...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello guys.I,ve just joined this group,so excuse me
        > > > intruding,but can I put
        > > > in my offering?
        > > > Three wires from the alternator stator does not make
        > >
        > > __________________________________________________
        > > Do You Yahoo!?
        > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
        > > http://im.yahoo.com
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > Save 50% at MotherNature.com! See site for details.
        > > http://click.egroups.com/1/766/3/_/13762/_/949293244/
        > >
        > > -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
        > > -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=royalenfield&m=1
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
        > as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
        > Apply NOW!
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        > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/royalenfield/?m=1
        >
        >
        >
      • Bill van Dijk
        Hello Kevin, The shorted coils were a situation described by Nandan in the Indian bike, it does not seem to occur in the export bikes. My reference to the
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Kevin,

          The shorted coils were a situation described by Nandan in the Indian bike,
          it does not seem to occur in the "export" bikes. My reference to the
          reduction of the flux in the stator does make sense if you consider a few
          basic facts. I'll get to it in a moment. First I would like to talk about a
          few other related comments. I quote from your notes:

          >if the designer in
          > Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil costing
          > $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,

          Getting 500Volts out of a coil is not difficult. But what is the use? Power
          is what makes things work. In electrical terms, power is expressed in Watts,
          or more accurately when dealing with AC, VA (Volt*Amperes). I will not
          attempt to explain the difference now, unless challenged too (not meant as a
          threat :-)). When a permanent magnet spins in a iron stator, a pulsating
          flux is generated within the iron. The mass of the iron, the strength of the
          magnet, and the magnetic properties of the iron (the hysteresis curve)
          determine the maximum amount of energy that can be developed. When a
          conductor is placed in the flux, an EMF is generated in the conductor. If we
          take X number of conductors connected together, we now increase the output X
          times EMF. In other words, if 1 conductor delivers 1 Volt, 500 conductors
          deliver 500Volts and so on. No magic here.

          When we close the circuit, a current will start to flow. An AC current to be
          precise, induced by the magnetic flux. When you take a conductor and send an
          electric current through it, it will generate a magnetic flux.
          Interestingly, the flux generated by a current through the coil, is opposite
          to a flux which generates the EMF. This means that if you have a coil in an
          alternator, and you put a load on it, it starts to oppose the original flux.
          This has as result the engine (or whatever it is that rotates the permanent
          magnet) now has to work harder to keep things turning. The magnetic flux in
          the stator is reduced due to the opposition. Heat (power) is produced in the
          coil.

          Here the story splits, and connects with your question regarding the
          reduction in the flux. It now becomes clear that shorting a set of coils
          must affect the others. It is like someone turning on a heavy appliance in
          the house, and the rest of the lights dim. It is an extremely crude way of
          regulating the alternator output. But hey.. it works.

          The second part of the story now deals with energy. As the counter EMF (as a
          result of the load on the coil) builds, there is a point where it balances
          with the flux in the stator. At this point the output current can no longer
          increase. We have reached maximum output for this unit. If you now measure
          the output voltage, and multiply that by the output current in Amperes, you
          now know the maximum output energy in VA. This is a constant for this unit.
          Increase the turns in the coil, (add conductors) and the output Voltage will
          increase. Output current (Amps) will go down until the VA is the same as in
          the previous example.

          Back to our Bullets. I am not sure if I agree that I agree with:

          > Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output. My advice
          > would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
          > manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven
          > formulae,ie it
          > will already be giving optimum preformance.

          Those coils were build to do a job. Physical properties do not need to be
          (mathematically or otherwise) optimized for that. As a matter of fact, most
          things in those days were build with lots of "reserve" in it. This way we
          can build bikes that work in a sloppy fashion, and under poor conditions. We
          can alter so many things on these bike because of this (how many bikes would
          even run with the cam out by two teeth??). God bless them. What would you
          think would happen if they were to try building rice rockets (no offence
          intended) under these kinds of conditions? :-)

          Anyhow, you mentioned in one of your earlier messages a Voltage reading you
          obtained. I am curious from which wires you got this reading, and about what
          the RPM was at that moment (a rough guess would be fine).

          Cheers, BILL



          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:52 AM
          > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
          > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
          >
          >
          > Hello Bill,
          > When you say the coils are shorted,are you saying that the two ends of the
          > coil are joined to a common point,or each coil is joined"in a string"with
          > the adjacent coil?If they really are indidually shorted,then they
          > are having
          > no input to the generation,and this would seem to be a good place to start
          > if greater output is required.However,your asertion that it has
          > been done to
          > reduce the magnetic flux in the stator,doesn't make sense to me
          > I'm afraid.
          > The magnetic flux is produced by the permanent magnets in the rotor;this
          > rotating magnetic field induces an EMF in the stator coils,which
          > by linking
          > them together,results in a useable electrical supply for the
          > bike.Why would
          > any manufacturer wish to reduce the electrical capacity of thier
          > vehicles,which are,after all,far more marketable with efficient
          > lights,indicators,reliable starting etc.The coils would not have been
          > shorted to improve reliability,the stator is inherently reliable,and all
          > other designs work with the full six coils,don't they?
          > Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output.My advice
          > would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
          > manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven
          > formulae,ie it
          > will already be giving optimum preformance.
          > There's an saying in Engineering Design "nothing's for nothing,and every
          > thing's for a reason"This means in this instance,that if the designer in
          > Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil costing
          > $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,and saved his company a
          > fortune.But of course he didn't,because this coil doesn't
          > exist,and the one
          > he did fit was a compromise betwwen cost,output and physical size.Someone
          > mentioned today about the Lucas 180w 3 phase alternator-this is a quantum
          > leap in bike alternators,more efficient,etc but rather
          > expensive.Well,there
          > you go,that old trade-off again!Incidentally,to fit this part you
          > would need
          > a 3-phase rectifier etc,so its not a direct replacement even if
          > it would fit
          > on the studs and on the mainshaft.
          > Also Bill you were asking about the voltage across the coil.What
          > I meant was
          > the voltage across the open-circuited ends of the alternator
          > stator when the
          > engine is running at normal speed.
          > On reading what I have written,it does sound rather negative.I didn't mean
          > it to come out like that,but the RE bike is built for a Third World
          > market,and as such,strikes a good balance in the
          > "cheapness/reliability/simplicity/performance"ratio.Any improvements,which
          > were effective and cheap,and didn't compromise reliability,would have been
          > done by Madras,agreed?
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
          > To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:36 AM
          > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
          >
          >
          > > Hello Nandan,
          > >
          > > Love your graphics! As you have probably seen by now, my stator is
          > > decidedly differently connected internally. It took a bit of
          > poking at the
          > > wires to see exactly where they were going. I can only surmise that the
          > > difference is due to the fact we run with our lights on, and therefore
          > have
          > > a much more constant load on the electrics.
          > >
          > > I think their reason for shorting some of the coils is simply to reduce
          > the
          > > magnetic flux in the stator to further reduce the output of the
          > remaining
          > > coils. The fact this does not seem to hurt the coils, indicates the
          > current
          > > generated is much less than the max. current for that size of wire. For
          > that
          > > reason it is understandable there are very few failures of the stator.
          > This
          > > may also be an early warning that my idea of increasing the
          > output current
          > > by using a heavier wire may not have much result.
          > >
          > > I agree that shunt regulation is not the most desirable, if only for the
          > > heat developed. There is an other way, series regulation. Once
          > I have some
          > > idea of the magnitude of the current to be regulated, I will
          > consult with
          > a
          > > buddy of mine who is much more knowledgeable on this stuff than I am. It
          > > also happens that he owes me one :-). Based on this, I am still
          > interested
          >
          > > on working with the delta configuration, since it would yield
          > the highest
          > > possible current output.
          > >
          > > Kevin, in your post you mentioned an output of about 60Volts
          > from an open
          > > coil. Could you tell me at what RPM and if this is really one coil, or a
          > > coil pair?
          > >
          > > Cheers, BILL
          > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: gurunandan [mailto:gurunandan92@...]
          > > > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:34 PM
          > > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
          > > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi, Kevin!
          > > > Welcome aboard!
          > > >
          > > > Don't hesitate to voice a "non-conformist" opinion!
          > > >
          > > > To give you the background in brief:
          > > >
          > > > Most of us feel the Bullet electrics "sucks"!
          > > > { While we all *love* Bullets, not all of us
          > > > exactly worship the manufacturer. :-) }
          > > >
          > > > Personally, I am rather against shunt regulation.
          > > > Indeed, I am not for pmnt-magnet alternators at all:
          > > > I feel, poor charge at low rpm + hot regulator
          > > > at speed, perpetually, is too high a price for the
          > > > sake of starting with flat battery.
          > > > Esply considering it would hardly ever come to that
          > > > if the alternator was functioning as it should!
          > > >
          > > > There is considerable difference in the electrics
          > > > depending on the local laws and conditions.
          > > >
          > > > According to all reports, the latest Bullets
          > > > are being "upgraded" to the seperate
          > > > Lighting & Running coils system !
          > > > (Time-Machine invented in Jaipur, India! ?)
          > > >
          > > > OK, to get back to the current case:
          > > > ________________________________________________1
          > > > |
          > > > | _________________________________2
          > > > | | |
          > > > | | |
          > > > C C C
          > > > C1 C3 C5
          > > > C C C
          > > > | | |
          > > > | | |
          > > > | | |
          > > > | | |
          > > > C C C
          > > > C2 C4 C6
          > > > C C C
          > > > | | |
          > > > |______________|_______________|__________________3
          > > >
          > > > This is the circuit of my stator.
          > > > Coils 1&2 are opposite each-other, 3&4, 5&6 ditto.
          > > >
          > > > Leads 1&3 are always connected to rectifier.
          > > > Lead 2 is:
          > > > shorted to lead 3 (by h/l sw) when off;
          > > > floating with p/l on;
          > > > connected to lead 1 when h/l is on.
          > > >
          > > > {Frank, I thought you had swapped leads 2 & 3. }
          > > >
          > > > Now, Bill, (perhaps you have also traced the ckt)
          > > > This is what I was trying to say:
          > > >
          > > > a) Add P + Q turns to all coils
          > > > (Or remove P, add Q+R, you know what I mean)
          > > >
          > > > ____________________1 - Sickeningly Slow Traffic
          > > > |
          > > > C___________________1'- Traffic
          > > > C___________________1"- Highway
          > > > C
          > > > C
          > > > |
          > > > (and get 6 extra leads!)
          > > >
          > > > b) Add 2P + 2Q turns to 2,4,6
          > > > (and get two extra leads)
          > > >
          > > > A practical problem with (b) is that there is not
          > > > much space for a lot of extra turns!
          > > > Maybe we add turns to 1,3,5 also, but tap only 2,4,6.
          > > > Hmmm.
          > > > Looks like I have to invest in another stator for
          > > > these experiments! They threaten to be long-drawn-out.
          > > >
          > > > Kevin, have you come across any other type of
          > > > regulation? Apart from Zener? If you would pl take the
          > > > trouble of elaborating....
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > > Nandan.
          > > >
          > > > {Frank, I trust you don't mind waiting till the
          > > > weekend
          > > > for our e-party! We drink only water on weekdays :-) }
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- Kevin Sandford
          > > > <kevinsandford@...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hello guys.I,ve just joined this group,so excuse me
          > > > > intruding,but can I put
          > > > > in my offering?
          > > > > Three wires from the alternator stator does not make
          > > >
          > > > __________________________________________________
          > > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
          > > > http://im.yahoo.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > > Save 50% at MotherNature.com! See site for details.
          > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/766/3/_/13762/_/949293244/
          > > >
          > > > -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
          > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=royalenfield&m=1
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
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          > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
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          > >
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        • Doug Christian
          Bill, Excellent message. Let me make one point regarding the stock alternators that come with the Enfield: Years ago, Enfield had a different light system in a
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 1, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Bill,

            Excellent message.

            Let me make one point regarding the stock alternators that come with the
            Enfield:

            Years ago, Enfield had a different light system in a six volt system. There
            was a tiny (and I mean TINY) running light, and a bright high beam lamp. The
            tiny running light did no more than provide some added visibility, but it
            couldn't be considered a useful light by any means.

            As time passed, the demands of the users changed, but the Bullet remained
            virtually the same. We started putting brighter running lights into our
            systems, we put on turn signals, added some of us even added more lights for
            better visibility. Well, all that visibility and carrot juice costs wattage.

            The original design met the needs of users in the 1930s just fine - but
            today, we consume more.

            Doug

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
            To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
            Sent: February 01, 2000 8:16 PM
            Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!


            > Hello Kevin,
            >
            > The shorted coils were a situation described by Nandan in the Indian bike,
            > it does not seem to occur in the "export" bikes. My reference to the
            > reduction of the flux in the stator does make sense if you consider a few
            > basic facts. I'll get to it in a moment. First I would like to talk about
            a
            > few other related comments. I quote from your notes:
            >
            > >if the designer in
            > > Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil
            costing
            > > $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,
            >
            > Getting 500Volts out of a coil is not difficult. But what is the use?
            Power
            > is what makes things work. In electrical terms, power is expressed in
            Watts,
            > or more accurately when dealing with AC, VA (Volt*Amperes). I will not
            > attempt to explain the difference now, unless challenged too (not meant as
            a
            > threat :-)). When a permanent magnet spins in a iron stator, a pulsating
            > flux is generated within the iron. The mass of the iron, the strength of
            the
            > magnet, and the magnetic properties of the iron (the hysteresis curve)
            > determine the maximum amount of energy that can be developed. When a
            > conductor is placed in the flux, an EMF is generated in the conductor. If
            we
            > take X number of conductors connected together, we now increase the output
            X
            > times EMF. In other words, if 1 conductor delivers 1 Volt, 500 conductors
            > deliver 500Volts and so on. No magic here.
            >
            > When we close the circuit, a current will start to flow. An AC current to
            be
            > precise, induced by the magnetic flux. When you take a conductor and send
            an
            > electric current through it, it will generate a magnetic flux.
            > Interestingly, the flux generated by a current through the coil, is
            opposite
            > to a flux which generates the EMF. This means that if you have a coil in
            an
            > alternator, and you put a load on it, it starts to oppose the original
            flux.
            > This has as result the engine (or whatever it is that rotates the
            permanent
            > magnet) now has to work harder to keep things turning. The magnetic flux
            in
            > the stator is reduced due to the opposition. Heat (power) is produced in
            the
            > coil.
            >
            > Here the story splits, and connects with your question regarding the
            > reduction in the flux. It now becomes clear that shorting a set of coils
            > must affect the others. It is like someone turning on a heavy appliance in
            > the house, and the rest of the lights dim. It is an extremely crude way of
            > regulating the alternator output. But hey.. it works.
            >
            > The second part of the story now deals with energy. As the counter EMF (as
            a
            > result of the load on the coil) builds, there is a point where it balances
            > with the flux in the stator. At this point the output current can no
            longer
            > increase. We have reached maximum output for this unit. If you now measure
            > the output voltage, and multiply that by the output current in Amperes,
            you
            > now know the maximum output energy in VA. This is a constant for this
            unit.
            > Increase the turns in the coil, (add conductors) and the output Voltage
            will
            > increase. Output current (Amps) will go down until the VA is the same as
            in
            > the previous example.
            >
            > Back to our Bullets. I am not sure if I agree that I agree with:
            >
            > > Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output. My
            advice
            > > would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
            > > manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven
            > > formulae,ie it
            > > will already be giving optimum preformance.
            >
            > Those coils were build to do a job. Physical properties do not need to be
            > (mathematically or otherwise) optimized for that. As a matter of fact,
            most
            > things in those days were build with lots of "reserve" in it. This way we
            > can build bikes that work in a sloppy fashion, and under poor conditions.
            We
            > can alter so many things on these bike because of this (how many bikes
            would
            > even run with the cam out by two teeth??). God bless them. What would you
            > think would happen if they were to try building rice rockets (no offence
            > intended) under these kinds of conditions? :-)
            >
            > Anyhow, you mentioned in one of your earlier messages a Voltage reading
            you
            > obtained. I am curious from which wires you got this reading, and about
            what
            > the RPM was at that moment (a rough guess would be fine).
            >
            > Cheers, BILL
            >
            >
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:52 AM
            > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
            > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello Bill,
            > > When you say the coils are shorted,are you saying that the two ends of
            the
            > > coil are joined to a common point,or each coil is joined"in a
            string"with
            > > the adjacent coil?If they really are indidually shorted,then they
            > > are having
            > > no input to the generation,and this would seem to be a good place to
            start
            > > if greater output is required.However,your asertion that it has
            > > been done to
            > > reduce the magnetic flux in the stator,doesn't make sense to me
            > > I'm afraid.
            > > The magnetic flux is produced by the permanent magnets in the rotor;this
            > > rotating magnetic field induces an EMF in the stator coils,which
            > > by linking
            > > them together,results in a useable electrical supply for the
            > > bike.Why would
            > > any manufacturer wish to reduce the electrical capacity of thier
            > > vehicles,which are,after all,far more marketable with efficient
            > > lights,indicators,reliable starting etc.The coils would not have been
            > > shorted to improve reliability,the stator is inherently reliable,and all
            > > other designs work with the full six coils,don't they?
            > > Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output.My
            advice
            > > would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
            > > manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven
            > > formulae,ie it
            > > will already be giving optimum preformance.
            > > There's an saying in Engineering Design "nothing's for nothing,and every
            > > thing's for a reason"This means in this instance,that if the designer in
            > > Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil
            costing
            > > $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,and saved his company a
            > > fortune.But of course he didn't,because this coil doesn't
            > > exist,and the one
            > > he did fit was a compromise betwwen cost,output and physical
            size.Someone
            > > mentioned today about the Lucas 180w 3 phase alternator-this is a
            quantum
            > > leap in bike alternators,more efficient,etc but rather
            > > expensive.Well,there
            > > you go,that old trade-off again!Incidentally,to fit this part you
            > > would need
            > > a 3-phase rectifier etc,so its not a direct replacement even if
            > > it would fit
            > > on the studs and on the mainshaft.
            > > Also Bill you were asking about the voltage across the coil.What
            > > I meant was
            > > the voltage across the open-circuited ends of the alternator
            > > stator when the
            > > engine is running at normal speed.
            > > On reading what I have written,it does sound rather negative.I didn't
            mean
            > > it to come out like that,but the RE bike is built for a Third World
            > > market,and as such,strikes a good balance in the
            > > "cheapness/reliability/simplicity/performance"ratio.Any
            improvements,which
            > > were effective and cheap,and didn't compromise reliability,would have
            been
            > > done by Madras,agreed?
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
            > > To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:36 AM
            > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
            > >
            > >
            > > > Hello Nandan,
            > > >
            > > > Love your graphics! As you have probably seen by now, my stator is
            > > > decidedly differently connected internally. It took a bit of
            > > poking at the
            > > > wires to see exactly where they were going. I can only surmise that
            the
            > > > difference is due to the fact we run with our lights on, and therefore
            > > have
            > > > a much more constant load on the electrics.
            > > >
            > > > I think their reason for shorting some of the coils is simply to
            reduce
            > > the
            > > > magnetic flux in the stator to further reduce the output of the
            > > remaining
            > > > coils. The fact this does not seem to hurt the coils, indicates the
            > > current
            > > > generated is much less than the max. current for that size of wire.
            For
            > > that
            > > > reason it is understandable there are very few failures of the stator.
            > > This
            > > > may also be an early warning that my idea of increasing the
            > > output current
            > > > by using a heavier wire may not have much result.
            > > >
            > > > I agree that shunt regulation is not the most desirable, if only for
            the
            > > > heat developed. There is an other way, series regulation. Once
            > > I have some
            > > > idea of the magnitude of the current to be regulated, I will
            > > consult with
            > > a
            > > > buddy of mine who is much more knowledgeable on this stuff than I am.
            It
            > > > also happens that he owes me one :-). Based on this, I am still
            > > interested
            > >
            > > > on working with the delta configuration, since it would yield
            > > the highest
            > > > possible current output.
            > > >
            > > > Kevin, in your post you mentioned an output of about 60Volts
            > > from an open
            > > > coil. Could you tell me at what RPM and if this is really one coil, or
            a
            > > > coil pair?
            > > >
            > > > Cheers, BILL
            > > >
            > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > From: gurunandan [mailto:gurunandan92@...]
            > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:34 PM
            > > > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
            > > > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi, Kevin!
            > > > > Welcome aboard!
            > > > >
            > > > > Don't hesitate to voice a "non-conformist" opinion!
            > > > >
            > > > > To give you the background in brief:
            > > > >
            > > > > Most of us feel the Bullet electrics "sucks"!
            > > > > { While we all *love* Bullets, not all of us
            > > > > exactly worship the manufacturer. :-) }
            > > > >
            > > > > Personally, I am rather against shunt regulation.
            > > > > Indeed, I am not for pmnt-magnet alternators at all:
            > > > > I feel, poor charge at low rpm + hot regulator
            > > > > at speed, perpetually, is too high a price for the
            > > > > sake of starting with flat battery.
            > > > > Esply considering it would hardly ever come to that
            > > > > if the alternator was functioning as it should!
            > > > >
            > > > > There is considerable difference in the electrics
            > > > > depending on the local laws and conditions.
            > > > >
            > > > > According to all reports, the latest Bullets
            > > > > are being "upgraded" to the seperate
            > > > > Lighting & Running coils system !
            > > > > (Time-Machine invented in Jaipur, India! ?)
            > > > >
            > > > > OK, to get back to the current case:
            > > > > ________________________________________________1
            > > > > |
            > > > > | _________________________________2
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > C C C
            > > > > C1 C3 C5
            > > > > C C C
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > C C C
            > > > > C2 C4 C6
            > > > > C C C
            > > > > | | |
            > > > > |______________|_______________|__________________3
            > > > >
            > > > > This is the circuit of my stator.
            > > > > Coils 1&2 are opposite each-other, 3&4, 5&6 ditto.
            > > > >
            > > > > Leads 1&3 are always connected to rectifier.
            > > > > Lead 2 is:
            > > > > shorted to lead 3 (by h/l sw) when off;
            > > > > floating with p/l on;
            > > > > connected to lead 1 when h/l is on.
            > > > >
            > > > > {Frank, I thought you had swapped leads 2 & 3. }
            > > > >
            > > > > Now, Bill, (perhaps you have also traced the ckt)
            > > > > This is what I was trying to say:
            > > > >
            > > > > a) Add P + Q turns to all coils
            > > > > (Or remove P, add Q+R, you know what I mean)
            > > > >
            > > > > ____________________1 - Sickeningly Slow Traffic
            > > > > |
            > > > > C___________________1'- Traffic
            > > > > C___________________1"- Highway
            > > > > C
            > > > > C
            > > > > |
            > > > > (and get 6 extra leads!)
            > > > >
            > > > > b) Add 2P + 2Q turns to 2,4,6
            > > > > (and get two extra leads)
            > > > >
            > > > > A practical problem with (b) is that there is not
            > > > > much space for a lot of extra turns!
            > > > > Maybe we add turns to 1,3,5 also, but tap only 2,4,6.
            > > > > Hmmm.
            > > > > Looks like I have to invest in another stator for
            > > > > these experiments! They threaten to be long-drawn-out.
            > > > >
            > > > > Kevin, have you come across any other type of
            > > > > regulation? Apart from Zener? If you would pl take the
            > > > > trouble of elaborating....
            > > > >
            > > > > Regards,
            > > > > Nandan.
            > > > >
            > > > > {Frank, I trust you don't mind waiting till the
            > > > > weekend
            > > > > for our e-party! We drink only water on weekdays :-) }
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- Kevin Sandford
            > > > > <kevinsandford@...> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hello guys.I,ve just joined this group,so excuse me
            > > > > > intruding,but can I put
            > > > > > in my offering?
            > > > > > Three wires from the alternator stator does not make
            > > > >
            > > > > __________________________________________________
            > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
            > > > > http://im.yahoo.com
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > > Save 50% at MotherNature.com! See site for details.
            > > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/766/3/_/13762/_/949293244/
            > > > >
            > > > > -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
            > > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=royalenfield&m=1
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
            > > > as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
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            > > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
            > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/royalenfield/?m=1
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            > > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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            > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
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          • Bill van Dijk
            Hi Doug, Thanks, I m glad there are people who get something out of it. You make a very good observation in your reply. Isn t it fantastic that we are still
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 2, 2000
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              Hi Doug,

              Thanks, I'm glad there are people who get something out of it. You make a
              very good observation in your reply. Isn't it fantastic that we are still
              able to fiddle with these things and find ways to make them go even further?

              Cheers, BILL

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Doug Christian [mailto:studio@...]
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:22 PM
              > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
              > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
              >
              >
              > Bill,
              >
              > Excellent message.
              >
              > Let me make one point regarding the stock alternators that come with the
              > Enfield:
              >
              > Years ago, Enfield had a different light system in a six volt
              > system. There
              > was a tiny (and I mean TINY) running light, and a bright high
              > beam lamp. The
              > tiny running light did no more than provide some added visibility, but it
              > couldn't be considered a useful light by any means.
              >
              > As time passed, the demands of the users changed, but the Bullet remained
              > virtually the same. We started putting brighter running lights into our
              > systems, we put on turn signals, added some of us even added more
              > lights for
              > better visibility. Well, all that visibility and carrot juice
              > costs wattage.
              >
              > The original design met the needs of users in the 1930s just fine - but
              > today, we consume more.
              >
              > Doug
              <big snip>
            • Bill van Dijk
              Hi Kevin, ... One must use metaphors carefully and sparingly when discussing facts, they are easily misinterpreted. My excuses if I m guilty. ... You are
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 2, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Kevin,

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:20 PM
                > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                >
                >
                > Hello again Bill,
                > Yep,I agree with just about everything you say "electrically",I guess our
                > Amps and Volts must be just the same as yours.When I said about a 500v
                > coil,miniature,costing $1,I was not saying it would be suitable or not-but
                > merely trying to get the point across that the RE alternator stator,like
                > most things in Engineering ,is the result of a compromise;the useable
                > output/cheapness to make/physical size of the finished alternator,

                One must use metaphors carefully and sparingly when discussing facts, they
                are easily misinterpreted. My excuses if I'm guilty.

                > compromise,and if this mythical hi-power,dirt cheap,fit it anywhere coil
                > existed,the RE designer would have specified it .I still stand by my point
                > that using the laid down data regarding coil performance,ie
                > turns/SWG/magnetic strength,if it were possible to get more power form the
                > RE alternator by altering the turns or the gauge of wire,then RE
                > would have
                > done it.I would imagine that the Max number of turns have already been
                > fitted-any larger and the coils would touch the adjacent coils-then you
                > would need to make the stator diameter larger,then of course,it
                > wouldn't fit
                > in the chaincase-back to square one!

                You are expressing assumptions here which oppose the findings of those who
                have actually looked at things. The stator of my bike's alternator lies on
                my workbench, that is how I know how the coils are connected. That is why I
                cannot measure the output myself. I also know there IS room on the coils.
                What are we to gain here by these assumptions?

                > Still don't get the point about shorting coils ,though.Why would Madras
                > consider this,when there is perfectly adequate,tried and tested methods of
                > regulation available?

                Simple. I costs nothing. Nothing needs to be added to make it work,
                everything required is already there. And it actually works too.

                > For the alternator voltage test,disconnect the two wires which go
                > across the
                > bridge,(I'm assuming this is how Madras have wired it) connect

                Before we continue the assuming game, why not check our facts? Than we can
                proceed to have a meaningful and constructive dialog. Suppose I were to show
                up on an engineering meeting and present the group a theory based on
                assumptions which, if I had taken the time, could have checked?
                Notwithstanding my career, what would happen to my credibility?

                > Voltmeter or
                > oscilloscope across these two leads,start bike and give it a
                > handful.As you
                > said yourself,above a certain rotational speed,no more power will be
                > produced,so there's no need to give it 5000 RPM!

                <snip>

                Please do not feel personally attacked, that is not my intent. I love to
                discuss this subject with you and anyone else who's interested. Nandan and
                myself are looking for practical and economical options to the current (pun
                intended :-) ) configuration. Assumptions have a place in engineering, but
                only in the absence of available facts. Even then they are to be treated
                with great caution.

                Cheers, BILL
              • Doug Christian
                Yes it is! The more I study this engine, the more impressed I become. The designers were truly talented - and they had a nice aesthetic sense as well. I have a
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 2, 2000
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                  Yes it is! The more I study this engine, the more impressed I become. The
                  designers were truly talented - and they had a nice aesthetic sense as well.

                  I have a wonderful book, which is becoming harder to find, called Classic
                  Motorcycle Engines, by Vic Willoughby. I found a copy of it not too long ago
                  on Ebay. I bought it and gave it to a friend. I don't think he knew how hard
                  I tried to get that book for him - but then again, that is what gifts are
                  about, the product without the pain!

                  If you can find the book, try to pick it up. It's got several discussions
                  about single cylinder engines in there, including the Rudge Ulster, the
                  250cc Royal Enfield GP5, the 125cc Ducati Desmo, the Norton Manx, and my
                  fave, the six cylinder Honda CBX. (I just saw in a bike magazine that
                  someone is reproducing the 250cc CBX on a limited basis - 6 bikes - for
                  $250,000 per bike.)

                  There is also a wonderful interview with Phil Irving in there. I have read a
                  couple of his books, and he is always a source of inspiration and knowledge.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
                  To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
                  Sent: February 02, 2000 6:28 PM
                  Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!


                  > Hi Doug,
                  >
                  > Thanks, I'm glad there are people who get something out of it. You make a
                  > very good observation in your reply. Isn't it fantastic that we are still
                  > able to fiddle with these things and find ways to make them go even
                  further?
                  >
                  > Cheers, BILL
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Doug Christian [mailto:studio@...]
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:22 PM
                  > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                  > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bill,
                  > >
                  > > Excellent message.
                  > >
                  > > Let me make one point regarding the stock alternators that come with the
                  > > Enfield:
                  > >
                  > > Years ago, Enfield had a different light system in a six volt
                  > > system. There
                  > > was a tiny (and I mean TINY) running light, and a bright high
                  > > beam lamp. The
                  > > tiny running light did no more than provide some added visibility, but
                  it
                  > > couldn't be considered a useful light by any means.
                  > >
                  > > As time passed, the demands of the users changed, but the Bullet
                  remained
                  > > virtually the same. We started putting brighter running lights into our
                  > > systems, we put on turn signals, added some of us even added more
                  > > lights for
                  > > better visibility. Well, all that visibility and carrot juice
                  > > costs wattage.
                  > >
                  > > The original design met the needs of users in the 1930s just fine - but
                  > > today, we consume more.
                  > >
                  > > Doug
                  > <big snip>
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                  >
                  >
                • Doug Christian
                  Let me ask this: how does the Lucas high output alternator get higher output? I thought it was essentially by placing more windings in the coil. True? Doug ...
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
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                    Let me ask this: how does the Lucas high output alternator get higher
                    output? I thought it was essentially by placing more windings in the coil.
                    True?

                    Doug

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
                    To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
                    Sent: February 02, 2000 7:06 PM
                    Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!


                    > Hi Kevin,
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
                    > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:20 PM
                    > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                    > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hello again Bill,
                    > > Yep,I agree with just about everything you say "electrically",I guess
                    our
                    > > Amps and Volts must be just the same as yours.When I said about a 500v
                    > > coil,miniature,costing $1,I was not saying it would be suitable or
                    not-but
                    > > merely trying to get the point across that the RE alternator stator,like
                    > > most things in Engineering ,is the result of a compromise;the useable
                    > > output/cheapness to make/physical size of the finished alternator,
                    >
                    > One must use metaphors carefully and sparingly when discussing facts, they
                    > are easily misinterpreted. My excuses if I'm guilty.
                    >
                    > > compromise,and if this mythical hi-power,dirt cheap,fit it anywhere coil
                    > > existed,the RE designer would have specified it .I still stand by my
                    point
                    > > that using the laid down data regarding coil performance,ie
                    > > turns/SWG/magnetic strength,if it were possible to get more power form
                    the
                    > > RE alternator by altering the turns or the gauge of wire,then RE
                    > > would have
                    > > done it.I would imagine that the Max number of turns have already been
                    > > fitted-any larger and the coils would touch the adjacent coils-then you
                    > > would need to make the stator diameter larger,then of course,it
                    > > wouldn't fit
                    > > in the chaincase-back to square one!
                    >
                    > You are expressing assumptions here which oppose the findings of those who
                    > have actually looked at things. The stator of my bike's alternator lies on
                    > my workbench, that is how I know how the coils are connected. That is why
                    I
                    > cannot measure the output myself. I also know there IS room on the coils.
                    > What are we to gain here by these assumptions?
                    >
                    > > Still don't get the point about shorting coils ,though.Why would Madras
                    > > consider this,when there is perfectly adequate,tried and tested methods
                    of
                    > > regulation available?
                    >
                    > Simple. I costs nothing. Nothing needs to be added to make it work,
                    > everything required is already there. And it actually works too.
                    >
                    > > For the alternator voltage test,disconnect the two wires which go
                    > > across the
                    > > bridge,(I'm assuming this is how Madras have wired it) connect
                    >
                    > Before we continue the assuming game, why not check our facts? Than we can
                    > proceed to have a meaningful and constructive dialog. Suppose I were to
                    show
                    > up on an engineering meeting and present the group a theory based on
                    > assumptions which, if I had taken the time, could have checked?
                    > Notwithstanding my career, what would happen to my credibility?
                    >
                    > > Voltmeter or
                    > > oscilloscope across these two leads,start bike and give it a
                    > > handful.As you
                    > > said yourself,above a certain rotational speed,no more power will be
                    > > produced,so there's no need to give it 5000 RPM!
                    >
                    > <snip>
                    >
                    > Please do not feel personally attacked, that is not my intent. I love to
                    > discuss this subject with you and anyone else who's interested. Nandan and
                    > myself are looking for practical and economical options to the current
                    (pun
                    > intended :-) ) configuration. Assumptions have a place in engineering, but
                    > only in the absence of available facts. Even then they are to be treated
                    > with great caution.
                    >
                    > Cheers, BILL
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                    >
                    >
                  • Frank Valentin
                    Hey Nandan, i already answered this post but it seems that it got lost in the www! So again: eBeer on weekend is fine, thx! And a question: While trying to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
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                      Hey Nandan,
                      i already answered this post but it seems that it got lost in the www!
                      So again: eBeer on weekend is fine, thx!

                      And a question: While trying to bring my electrics back to life i
                      re-routed a few of the components and the wiring a bit. Flasher unit
                      and the new coil are now located in the rightside toolbox. Looks very
                      clean and is surely out of the way of water and oil. As i am being
                      warned, i will keep the new reg/rec-unit under the saddle in the cool
                      air for getting not to hot. But what about the coil? Will it get that
                      hot too? I never touched it after riding so i do not know if it does
                      build up heat.
                      thx and bye
                      Frank

                      gurunandan <gurunandan9-@...> wrote:
                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/royalenfield/?start=3055
                      > Hi, Kevin!
                      > Welcome aboard!
                      >
                      > Don't hesitate to voice a "non-conformist" opinion!
                      >
                      > To give you the background in brief:
                      >
                      > Most of us feel the Bullet electrics "sucks"!
                      > { While we all *love* Bullets, not all of us
                      > exactly worship the manufacturer. :-) }
                      >
                      > Personally, I am rather against shunt regulation.
                      > Indeed, I am not for pmnt-magnet alternators at all:
                      > I feel, poor charge at low rpm + hot regulator
                      > at speed, perpetually, is too high a price for the
                      > sake of starting with flat battery.
                      > Esply considering it would hardly ever come to that
                      > if the alternator was functioning as it should!
                      >
                      > There is considerable difference in the electrics
                      > depending on the local laws and conditions.
                      >
                      > According to all reports, the latest Bullets
                      > are being "upgraded" to the seperate
                      > Lighting & Running coils system !
                      > (Time-Machine invented in Jaipur, India! ?)
                      >
                      > OK, to get back to the current case:
                      > ________________________________________________1
                      > |
                      > | _________________________________2
                      > | | |
                      > | | |
                      > C C C
                      > C1 C3 C5
                      > C C C
                      > | | |
                      > | | |
                      > | | |
                      > | | |
                      > C C C
                      > C2 C4 C6
                      > C C C
                      > | | |
                      > |______________|_______________|__________________3
                      >
                      > This is the circuit of my stator.
                      > Coils 1&2 are opposite each-other, 3&4, 5&6 ditto.
                      >
                      > Leads 1&3 are always connected to rectifier.
                      > Lead 2 is:
                      > shorted to lead 3 (by h/l sw) when off;
                      > floating with p/l on;
                      > connected to lead 1 when h/l is on.
                      >
                      > {Frank, I thought you had swapped leads 2 & 3. }
                      >
                      > Now, Bill, (perhaps you have also traced the ckt)
                      > This is what I was trying to say:
                      >
                      > a) Add P + Q turns to all coils
                      > (Or remove P, add Q+R, you know what I mean)
                      >
                      > ____________________1 - Sickeningly Slow Traffic
                      > |
                      > C___________________1'- Traffic
                      > C___________________1"- Highway
                      > C
                      > C
                      > |
                      > (and get 6 extra leads!)
                      >
                      > b) Add 2P + 2Q turns to 2,4,6
                      > (and get two extra leads)
                      >
                      > A practical problem with (b) is that there is not
                      > much space for a lot of extra turns!
                      > Maybe we add turns to 1,3,5 also, but tap only 2,4,6.
                      > Hmmm.
                      > Looks like I have to invest in another stator for
                      > these experiments! They threaten to be long-drawn-out.
                      >
                      > Kevin, have you come across any other type of
                      > regulation? Apart from Zener? If you would pl take the
                      > trouble of elaborating....
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Nandan.
                      >
                      > {Frank, I trust you don't mind waiting till the
                      > weekend
                      > for our e-party! We drink only water on weekdays :-) }
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- Kevin Sandford
                      > <kevinsandford@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello guys.I,ve just joined this group,so excuse me
                      > > intruding,but can I put
                      > > in my offering?
                      > > Three wires from the alternator stator does not make
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
                      > http://im.yahoo.com
                    • gurunandan
                      ... Doug! Is that a loaded question or is it! Right answer is Yes & No ,... but that doesn t help?! OK, Seat-Belts On! Looks like a sitting duck for Faraday s
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
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                        --- Doug Christian <studio@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Let me ask this: how does the Lucas high output
                        > alternator get higher
                        > output? I thought it was essentially by placing more
                        > windings in the coil.
                        > True?

                        Doug!
                        Is that a loaded question or is it!
                        Right answer is "Yes & No",... but that doesn't help?!

                        OK, Seat-Belts On!

                        Looks like a sitting duck for Faraday's Law, but there
                        is
                        more to it.
                        Any way, that is a good starting point:
                        The emf induced in each turn is proportional to the
                        rate of
                        change of flux thru' it. (Not exactly Faraday's words,
                        but
                        close enough for our purpose)
                        Straight off, we can see that higher emf can be
                        generated by:
                        1)more rpm, 2)more turns, 3)more magnetic-strength.

                        a)More turns will increase the *emf* but is that what
                        we want?
                        Yes, if the internal resistance of the battery is
                        already
                        more than the impedance of the coil. Or else no.
                        (It only means: if the wire gauge is generous enough,
                        more
                        turns will help. Or else emf may increase, not
                        voltage, nor
                        current)
                        Remember, the ign coil (Thousands of turns) delivers
                        very
                        high emf, but very little current.
                        Opposite to resistance-welding transformer (2-5
                        turns),
                        which can deliver very high current at low voltage.
                        That diversion was to convince you that it is not a
                        question
                        of more or less; just how much is right for the job.

                        b)Stronger magnet should increase the "output", but
                        will it?
                        We can't answer this in isolation. Too many factors.
                        Bottle necks could come from any of these too: Size of
                        stator
                        material of stator, stator-rotor gap, geometry of
                        design.

                        So, to increase output, find the bottleneck & fix
                        it!!!

                        Here I stop. Without figures, facts only confuse!
                        I would be abusing my welcome if I took such
                        liberties.

                        Regards,
                        Nandan.














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                        Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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                      • gurunandan
                        ... I just lost one too. Got a messg saying mine s going to the moderator. Then poof! Pity: it was entirely technical. Wonder what hooked the moderating
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
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                          --- Frank Valentin <frankvalentin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hey Nandan,
                          > i already answered this post but it seems that it
                          > got lost in the www!
                          I just lost one too. Got a messg saying mine's going
                          to the moderator. Then poof! Pity: it was entirely
                          technical. Wonder what hooked the moderating software.



                          > So again: eBeer on weekend is fine, thx!
                          > And a question: While trying to bring my electrics
                          > back to life i
                          > re-routed a few of the components and the wiring a
                          > bit. Flasher unit
                          > and the new coil are now located in the rightside
                          > toolbox. Looks very
                          > clean and is surely out of the way of water and oil.
                          >But what about the coil?
                          > Will it get that
                          > hot too? I never touched it after riding so i do not
                          > know if it does build up heat.

                          Nice idea. I am planning to modify the layout too: To
                          get rid of the original seat, muffler,
                          rearmudguard+subframes
                          and substitute with solo saddle and front-type
                          mudguard fixed to swing-arm/axle. It will not be as
                          "hygenic" as the original in rain! I too will move
                          all electrics to the shelter of the toolbox.
                          Yes, the coil runs quite hot! But personally, I feel
                          it can live without ventilation, enjoying the lack of
                          dust and water. I would not dare to advice you to
                          "imprison" your expensive Bosch coil however! (You
                          know Murphy's Law!) Perhaps you could run a cheaper
                          coil there, and put the Bosch when you feel sure?!
                          Good luck,
                          & Regards,
                          Nandan.





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                        • Kevin Sandford
                          Hello again Bill, Yep,I agree with just about everything you say electrically ,I guess our Amps and Volts must be just the same as yours.When I said about a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello again Bill,
                            Yep,I agree with just about everything you say "electrically",I guess our
                            Amps and Volts must be just the same as yours.When I said about a 500v
                            coil,miniature,costing $1,I was not saying it would be suitable or not-but
                            merely trying to get the point across that the RE alternator stator,like
                            most things in Engineering ,is the result of a compromise;the useable
                            output/cheapness to make/physical size of the finished alternator,
                            compromise,and if this mythical hi-power,dirt cheap,fit it anywhere coil
                            existed,the RE designer would have specified it .I still stand by my point
                            that using the laid down data regarding coil performance,ie
                            turns/SWG/magnetic strength,if it were possible to get more power form the
                            RE alternator by altering the turns or the gauge of wire,then RE would have
                            done it.I would imagine that the Max number of turns have already been
                            fitted-any larger and the coils would touch the adjacent coils-then you
                            would need to make the stator diameter larger,then of course,it wouldn't fit
                            in the chaincase-back to square one!
                            Still don't get the point about shorting coils ,though.Why would Madras
                            consider this,when there is perfectly adequate,tried and tested methods of
                            regulation available?
                            For the alternator voltage test,disconnect the two wires which go across the
                            bridge,(I'm assuming this is how Madras have wired it) connect Voltmeter or
                            oscilloscope across these two leads,start bike and give it a handful.As you
                            said yourself,above a certain rotational speed,no more power will be
                            produced,so there's no need to give it 5000 RPM!
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
                            To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 1:16 AM
                            Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!


                            > Hello Kevin,
                            >
                            > The shorted coils were a situation described by Nandan in the Indian bike,
                            > it does not seem to occur in the "export" bikes. My reference to the
                            > reduction of the flux in the stator does make sense if you consider a few
                            > basic facts. I'll get to it in a moment. First I would like to talk about
                            a
                            > few other related comments. I quote from your notes:
                            >
                            > >if the designer in
                            > > Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil
                            costing
                            > > $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,
                            >
                            > Getting 500Volts out of a coil is not difficult. But what is the use?
                            Power
                            > is what makes things work. In electrical terms, power is expressed in
                            Watts,
                            > or more accurately when dealing with AC, VA (Volt*Amperes). I will not
                            > attempt to explain the difference now, unless challenged too (not meant as
                            a
                            > threat :-)). When a permanent magnet spins in a iron stator, a pulsating
                            > flux is generated within the iron. The mass of the iron, the strength of
                            the
                            > magnet, and the magnetic properties of the iron (the hysteresis curve)
                            > determine the maximum amount of energy that can be developed. When a
                            > conductor is placed in the flux, an EMF is generated in the conductor. If
                            we
                            > take X number of conductors connected together, we now increase the output
                            X
                            > times EMF. In other words, if 1 conductor delivers 1 Volt, 500 conductors
                            > deliver 500Volts and so on. No magic here.
                            >
                            > When we close the circuit, a current will start to flow. An AC current to
                            be
                            > precise, induced by the magnetic flux. When you take a conductor and send
                            an
                            > electric current through it, it will generate a magnetic flux.
                            > Interestingly, the flux generated by a current through the coil, is
                            opposite
                            > to a flux which generates the EMF. This means that if you have a coil in
                            an
                            > alternator, and you put a load on it, it starts to oppose the original
                            flux.
                            > This has as result the engine (or whatever it is that rotates the
                            permanent
                            > magnet) now has to work harder to keep things turning. The magnetic flux
                            in
                            > the stator is reduced due to the opposition. Heat (power) is produced in
                            the
                            > coil.
                            >
                            > Here the story splits, and connects with your question regarding the
                            > reduction in the flux. It now becomes clear that shorting a set of coils
                            > must affect the others. It is like someone turning on a heavy appliance in
                            > the house, and the rest of the lights dim. It is an extremely crude way of
                            > regulating the alternator output. But hey.. it works.
                            >
                            > The second part of the story now deals with energy. As the counter EMF (as
                            a
                            > result of the load on the coil) builds, there is a point where it balances
                            > with the flux in the stator. At this point the output current can no
                            longer
                            > increase. We have reached maximum output for this unit. If you now measure
                            > the output voltage, and multiply that by the output current in Amperes,
                            you
                            > now know the maximum output energy in VA. This is a constant for this
                            unit.
                            > Increase the turns in the coil, (add conductors) and the output Voltage
                            will
                            > increase. Output current (Amps) will go down until the VA is the same as
                            in
                            > the previous example.
                            >
                            > Back to our Bullets. I am not sure if I agree that I agree with:
                            >
                            > > Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output. My
                            advice
                            > > would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
                            > > manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven
                            > > formulae,ie it
                            > > will already be giving optimum preformance.
                            >
                            > Those coils were build to do a job. Physical properties do not need to be
                            > (mathematically or otherwise) optimized for that. As a matter of fact,
                            most
                            > things in those days were build with lots of "reserve" in it. This way we
                            > can build bikes that work in a sloppy fashion, and under poor conditions.
                            We
                            > can alter so many things on these bike because of this (how many bikes
                            would
                            > even run with the cam out by two teeth??). God bless them. What would you
                            > think would happen if they were to try building rice rockets (no offence
                            > intended) under these kinds of conditions? :-)
                            >
                            > Anyhow, you mentioned in one of your earlier messages a Voltage reading
                            you
                            > obtained. I am curious from which wires you got this reading, and about
                            what
                            > the RPM was at that moment (a rough guess would be fine).
                            >
                            > Cheers, BILL
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:52 AM
                            > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                            > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hello Bill,
                            > > When you say the coils are shorted,are you saying that the two ends of
                            the
                            > > coil are joined to a common point,or each coil is joined"in a
                            string"with
                            > > the adjacent coil?If they really are indidually shorted,then they
                            > > are having
                            > > no input to the generation,and this would seem to be a good place to
                            start
                            > > if greater output is required.However,your asertion that it has
                            > > been done to
                            > > reduce the magnetic flux in the stator,doesn't make sense to me
                            > > I'm afraid.
                            > > The magnetic flux is produced by the permanent magnets in the rotor;this
                            > > rotating magnetic field induces an EMF in the stator coils,which
                            > > by linking
                            > > them together,results in a useable electrical supply for the
                            > > bike.Why would
                            > > any manufacturer wish to reduce the electrical capacity of thier
                            > > vehicles,which are,after all,far more marketable with efficient
                            > > lights,indicators,reliable starting etc.The coils would not have been
                            > > shorted to improve reliability,the stator is inherently reliable,and all
                            > > other designs work with the full six coils,don't they?
                            > > Another point raised is rewinding of the coils to up the output.My
                            advice
                            > > would be"don't waste your time"The coils will have been designed and
                            > > manufactured with reference to laid down mathmatically proven
                            > > formulae,ie it
                            > > will already be giving optimum preformance.
                            > > There's an saying in Engineering Design "nothing's for nothing,and every
                            > > thing's for a reason"This means in this instance,that if the designer in
                            > > Redditch in the 1940,s could have got 500v out of a miniature coil
                            costing
                            > > $1 to make,then he would have fitted this coil,and saved his company a
                            > > fortune.But of course he didn't,because this coil doesn't
                            > > exist,and the one
                            > > he did fit was a compromise betwwen cost,output and physical
                            size.Someone
                            > > mentioned today about the Lucas 180w 3 phase alternator-this is a
                            quantum
                            > > leap in bike alternators,more efficient,etc but rather
                            > > expensive.Well,there
                            > > you go,that old trade-off again!Incidentally,to fit this part you
                            > > would need
                            > > a 3-phase rectifier etc,so its not a direct replacement even if
                            > > it would fit
                            > > on the studs and on the mainshaft.
                            > > Also Bill you were asking about the voltage across the coil.What
                            > > I meant was
                            > > the voltage across the open-circuited ends of the alternator
                            > > stator when the
                            > > engine is running at normal speed.
                            > > On reading what I have written,it does sound rather negative.I didn't
                            mean
                            > > it to come out like that,but the RE bike is built for a Third World
                            > > market,and as such,strikes a good balance in the
                            > > "cheapness/reliability/simplicity/performance"ratio.Any
                            improvements,which
                            > > were effective and cheap,and didn't compromise reliability,would have
                            been
                            > > done by Madras,agreed?
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
                            > > To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:36 AM
                            > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > Hello Nandan,
                            > > >
                            > > > Love your graphics! As you have probably seen by now, my stator is
                            > > > decidedly differently connected internally. It took a bit of
                            > > poking at the
                            > > > wires to see exactly where they were going. I can only surmise that
                            the
                            > > > difference is due to the fact we run with our lights on, and therefore
                            > > have
                            > > > a much more constant load on the electrics.
                            > > >
                            > > > I think their reason for shorting some of the coils is simply to
                            reduce
                            > > the
                            > > > magnetic flux in the stator to further reduce the output of the
                            > > remaining
                            > > > coils. The fact this does not seem to hurt the coils, indicates the
                            > > current
                            > > > generated is much less than the max. current for that size of wire.
                            For
                            > > that
                            > > > reason it is understandable there are very few failures of the stator.
                            > > This
                            > > > may also be an early warning that my idea of increasing the
                            > > output current
                            > > > by using a heavier wire may not have much result.
                            > > >
                            > > > I agree that shunt regulation is not the most desirable, if only for
                            the
                            > > > heat developed. There is an other way, series regulation. Once
                            > > I have some
                            > > > idea of the magnitude of the current to be regulated, I will
                            > > consult with
                            > > a
                            > > > buddy of mine who is much more knowledgeable on this stuff than I am.
                            It
                            > > > also happens that he owes me one :-). Based on this, I am still
                            > > interested
                            > >
                            > > > on working with the delta configuration, since it would yield
                            > > the highest
                            > > > possible current output.
                            > > >
                            > > > Kevin, in your post you mentioned an output of about 60Volts
                            > > from an open
                            > > > coil. Could you tell me at what RPM and if this is really one coil, or
                            a
                            > > > coil pair?
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers, BILL
                            > > >
                            > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > From: gurunandan [mailto:gurunandan92@...]
                            > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:34 PM
                            > > > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                            > > > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hi, Kevin!
                            > > > > Welcome aboard!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Don't hesitate to voice a "non-conformist" opinion!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > To give you the background in brief:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Most of us feel the Bullet electrics "sucks"!
                            > > > > { While we all *love* Bullets, not all of us
                            > > > > exactly worship the manufacturer. :-) }
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Personally, I am rather against shunt regulation.
                            > > > > Indeed, I am not for pmnt-magnet alternators at all:
                            > > > > I feel, poor charge at low rpm + hot regulator
                            > > > > at speed, perpetually, is too high a price for the
                            > > > > sake of starting with flat battery.
                            > > > > Esply considering it would hardly ever come to that
                            > > > > if the alternator was functioning as it should!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > There is considerable difference in the electrics
                            > > > > depending on the local laws and conditions.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > According to all reports, the latest Bullets
                            > > > > are being "upgraded" to the seperate
                            > > > > Lighting & Running coils system !
                            > > > > (Time-Machine invented in Jaipur, India! ?)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > OK, to get back to the current case:
                            > > > > ________________________________________________1
                            > > > > |
                            > > > > | _________________________________2
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > C C C
                            > > > > C1 C3 C5
                            > > > > C C C
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > C C C
                            > > > > C2 C4 C6
                            > > > > C C C
                            > > > > | | |
                            > > > > |______________|_______________|__________________3
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is the circuit of my stator.
                            > > > > Coils 1&2 are opposite each-other, 3&4, 5&6 ditto.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Leads 1&3 are always connected to rectifier.
                            > > > > Lead 2 is:
                            > > > > shorted to lead 3 (by h/l sw) when off;
                            > > > > floating with p/l on;
                            > > > > connected to lead 1 when h/l is on.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > {Frank, I thought you had swapped leads 2 & 3. }
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Now, Bill, (perhaps you have also traced the ckt)
                            > > > > This is what I was trying to say:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > a) Add P + Q turns to all coils
                            > > > > (Or remove P, add Q+R, you know what I mean)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ____________________1 - Sickeningly Slow Traffic
                            > > > > |
                            > > > > C___________________1'- Traffic
                            > > > > C___________________1"- Highway
                            > > > > C
                            > > > > C
                            > > > > |
                            > > > > (and get 6 extra leads!)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > b) Add 2P + 2Q turns to 2,4,6
                            > > > > (and get two extra leads)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > A practical problem with (b) is that there is not
                            > > > > much space for a lot of extra turns!
                            > > > > Maybe we add turns to 1,3,5 also, but tap only 2,4,6.
                            > > > > Hmmm.
                            > > > > Looks like I have to invest in another stator for
                            > > > > these experiments! They threaten to be long-drawn-out.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Kevin, have you come across any other type of
                            > > > > regulation? Apart from Zener? If you would pl take the
                            > > > > trouble of elaborating....
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regards,
                            > > > > Nandan.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > {Frank, I trust you don't mind waiting till the
                            > > > > weekend
                            > > > > for our e-party! We drink only water on weekdays :-) }
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- Kevin Sandford
                            > > > > <kevinsandford@...> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hello guys.I,ve just joined this group,so excuse me
                            > > > > > intruding,but can I put
                            > > > > > in my offering?
                            > > > > > Three wires from the alternator stator does not make
                            > > > >
                            > > > > __________________________________________________
                            > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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                          • Bill van Dijk
                            Hi Doug, There are several items that will influence the output of an alternator. In case of an alternator, we want a reasonable stable output, say 13.8 Volts,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Doug,

                              There are several items that will influence the output of an alternator. In
                              case of an alternator, we want a reasonable stable output, say 13.8 Volts,
                              and after that we would be looking for more current, Amps. Adding more
                              windings to the coil will increase output voltage of the coil, not what we
                              are looking for. Using a thicker gauge wire will lower the internal
                              resistance of the coil, and hence increase the potential output current (the
                              amount of increase entirely depends on the rest of the alt.). On a design
                              level you can manipulate things such as magnetic field strength, magnetic
                              properties of the core etc. In the case of the Lucas alternator I'm not sure
                              what they did. Possibly a combination of the above.

                              Cheers, BILL

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Doug Christian [mailto:studio@...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:06 AM
                              > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                              > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                              >
                              >
                              > Let me ask this: how does the Lucas high output alternator get higher
                              > output? I thought it was essentially by placing more windings in the coil.
                              > True?
                              >
                              > Doug
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
                              > To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
                              > Sent: February 02, 2000 7:06 PM
                              > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                              >
                              >
                              > > Hi Kevin,
                              > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
                              > > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:20 PM
                              > > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                              > > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello again Bill,
                              > > > Yep,I agree with just about everything you say "electrically",I guess
                              > our
                              > > > Amps and Volts must be just the same as yours.When I said about a 500v
                              > > > coil,miniature,costing $1,I was not saying it would be suitable or
                              > not-but
                              > > > merely trying to get the point across that the RE alternator
                              > stator,like
                              > > > most things in Engineering ,is the result of a compromise;the useable
                              > > > output/cheapness to make/physical size of the finished alternator,
                              > >
                              > > One must use metaphors carefully and sparingly when discussing
                              > facts, they
                              > > are easily misinterpreted. My excuses if I'm guilty.
                              > >
                              > > > compromise,and if this mythical hi-power,dirt cheap,fit it
                              > anywhere coil
                              > > > existed,the RE designer would have specified it .I still stand by my
                              > point
                              > > > that using the laid down data regarding coil performance,ie
                              > > > turns/SWG/magnetic strength,if it were possible to get more power form
                              > the
                              > > > RE alternator by altering the turns or the gauge of wire,then RE
                              > > > would have
                              > > > done it.I would imagine that the Max number of turns have already been
                              > > > fitted-any larger and the coils would touch the adjacent
                              > coils-then you
                              > > > would need to make the stator diameter larger,then of course,it
                              > > > wouldn't fit
                              > > > in the chaincase-back to square one!
                              > >
                              > > You are expressing assumptions here which oppose the findings
                              > of those who
                              > > have actually looked at things. The stator of my bike's
                              > alternator lies on
                              > > my workbench, that is how I know how the coils are connected.
                              > That is why
                              > I
                              > > cannot measure the output myself. I also know there IS room on
                              > the coils.
                              > > What are we to gain here by these assumptions?
                              > >
                              > > > Still don't get the point about shorting coils ,though.Why
                              > would Madras
                              > > > consider this,when there is perfectly adequate,tried and
                              > tested methods
                              > of
                              > > > regulation available?
                              > >
                              > > Simple. I costs nothing. Nothing needs to be added to make it work,
                              > > everything required is already there. And it actually works too.
                              > >
                              > > > For the alternator voltage test,disconnect the two wires which go
                              > > > across the
                              > > > bridge,(I'm assuming this is how Madras have wired it) connect
                              > >
                              > > Before we continue the assuming game, why not check our facts?
                              > Than we can
                              > > proceed to have a meaningful and constructive dialog. Suppose I were to
                              > show
                              > > up on an engineering meeting and present the group a theory based on
                              > > assumptions which, if I had taken the time, could have checked?
                              > > Notwithstanding my career, what would happen to my credibility?
                              > >
                              > > > Voltmeter or
                              > > > oscilloscope across these two leads,start bike and give it a
                              > > > handful.As you
                              > > > said yourself,above a certain rotational speed,no more power will be
                              > > > produced,so there's no need to give it 5000 RPM!
                              > >
                              > > <snip>
                              > >
                              > > Please do not feel personally attacked, that is not my intent. I love to
                              > > discuss this subject with you and anyone else who's interested.
                              > Nandan and
                              > > myself are looking for practical and economical options to the current
                              > (pun
                              > > intended :-) ) configuration. Assumptions have a place in
                              > engineering, but
                              > > only in the absence of available facts. Even then they are to be treated
                              > > with great caution.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers, BILL
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                            • Frank Valentin
                              Thanks Nandan! So i will give it a try! Anyway, the coil (it is a german BERU) was only half the price of my new reg/rec-unit. Bad enough, if i burn it, but
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 3, 2000
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks Nandan!
                                So i will give it a try! Anyway, the coil (it is a german BERU) was
                                only half the price of my new reg/rec-unit. Bad enough, if i burn it,
                                but then i will know!
                                Cheers
                                Frank


                                gurunandan <gurunandan9-@...> wrote:
                                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/royalenfield/?start=3111
                                >
                                >
                                > --- Frank Valentin <frankvalentin@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hey Nandan,
                                > > i already answered this post but it seems that it
                                > > got lost in the www!
                                > I just lost one too. Got a messg saying mine's going
                                > to the moderator. Then poof! Pity: it was entirely
                                > technical. Wonder what hooked the moderating software.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > So again: eBeer on weekend is fine, thx!
                                > > And a question: While trying to bring my electrics
                                > > back to life i
                                > > re-routed a few of the components and the wiring a
                                > > bit. Flasher unit
                                > > and the new coil are now located in the rightside
                                > > toolbox. Looks very
                                > > clean and is surely out of the way of water and oil.
                                > >But what about the coil?
                                > > Will it get that
                                > > hot too? I never touched it after riding so i do not
                                > > know if it does build up heat.
                                >
                                > Nice idea. I am planning to modify the layout too: To
                                > get rid of the original seat, muffler,
                                > rearmudguard+subframes
                                > and substitute with solo saddle and front-type
                                > mudguard fixed to swing-arm/axle. It will not be as
                                > "hygenic" as the original in rain! I too will move
                                > all electrics to the shelter of the toolbox.
                                > Yes, the coil runs quite hot! But personally, I feel
                                > it can live without ventilation, enjoying the lack of
                                > dust and water. I would not dare to advice you to
                                > "imprison" your expensive Bosch coil however! (You
                                > know Murphy's Law!) Perhaps you could run a cheaper
                                > coil there, and put the Bosch when you feel sure?!
                                > Good luck,
                                > & Regards,
                                > Nandan.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
                                > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
                                > http://im.yahoo.com
                              • Kevin Sandford
                                Hello again Bill, OK,I ll hold my hands up,I m guilty of making assumptions. 1)I don t own a Bullet,never seen inside a bullet,never seen a wiring diagram or
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 4, 2000
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello again Bill,
                                  OK,I'll hold my hands up,I'm guilty of making assumptions.
                                  1)I don't own a Bullet,never seen inside a bullet,never seen a wiring
                                  diagram or an alternator from a bullet-BUT,I have seen,used and worked on
                                  stators from Triumphs,BSA's Nortons and indeed my own RE Continental GT,and
                                  one thing they have all had in common is the name "Lucas".Therefore from my
                                  personal experience,and theoretical knowledge,I am assuming that the Bullet
                                  one will be similar,if not identical.
                                  2)I am assuming,that when the manufacturing rights to the Bullet were sold
                                  to Madras in the distant past,they would have continued to produce the bike
                                  in a largely unaltered form,until better components,or changing legislation
                                  forced them to make modifications;if the electrical system was OK for RE in
                                  the '40s and 50s,why would the Indian company change it?As I understand
                                  it,there was a long waiting list for a Bullet,and,as Henry Ford might have
                                  said,why change a winning formula?
                                  3)My remark on the Bullet alternator/rectifier connection assumption;I said
                                  I "assumed" it was like this,because my experience of other bikes tells me
                                  that it is likely to be so.As previously stated,I have never seen a wiring
                                  diagram from a Bullet,so it didn't want somebody to say,"my Bullet's not
                                  wired like that"when my point was about the testing of the output
                                  voltage,not the physical wiring connections.
                                  4)I have to assume that the Lucas designer refered to his data tables when
                                  specifying the SWG of copper wire used in the stator coils.Smaller gauge
                                  wire=many more turns but higher resistivity ,therefore lower inductance,but
                                  less back EMF.Larger gauge wire=less turns but a lower
                                  resistivity,etc.etc.As you said yourself,there is no black magic to this,it
                                  all conforms to known data,so,if adding or removing,or rewinding in a
                                  different gauge wire were to have a measureable positive effect on the
                                  output,it would have been done.After all,it would be a negligable cost at
                                  the manufacturing stage,agreed?
                                  I don't take your comments personally;it is a disadvantage of talking over
                                  the net that you can't see the other person face to face,so you can't tell
                                  by body language or facial expressions if someone is getting upset,as you
                                  would do if your were chatting over a few drinks in a pub,or whatever.The
                                  gist of my discussion is really that rather than trying to "re-invent the
                                  wheel",it would,in my opinion,be better to concentrate on up-grading the
                                  components,where possible,to 21st century standards,modify,using tried and
                                  tested methods and techniques,and leaving the stuff which is difficult,or
                                  next to impossible to change well alone.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Bill van Dijk <bvdijk@...>
                                  To: <royalenfield@egroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:06 AM
                                  Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!


                                  > Hi Kevin,
                                  >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: Kevin Sandford [mailto:kevinsandford@...]
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:20 PM
                                  > > To: royalenfield@egroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [Enfield] Re: Hey, Nandan!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello again Bill,
                                  > > Yep,I agree with just about everything you say "electrically",I guess
                                  our
                                  > > Amps and Volts must be just the same as yours.When I said about a 500v
                                  > > coil,miniature,costing $1,I was not saying it would be suitable or
                                  not-but
                                  > > merely trying to get the point across that the RE alternator stator,like
                                  > > most things in Engineering ,is the result of a compromise;the useable
                                  > > output/cheapness to make/physical size of the finished alternator,
                                  >
                                  > One must use metaphors carefully and sparingly when discussing facts, they
                                  > are easily misinterpreted. My excuses if I'm guilty.
                                  >
                                  > > compromise,and if this mythical hi-power,dirt cheap,fit it anywhere coil
                                  > > existed,the RE designer would have specified it .I still stand by my
                                  point
                                  > > that using the laid down data regarding coil performance,ie
                                  > > turns/SWG/magnetic strength,if it were possible to get more power form
                                  the
                                  > > RE alternator by altering the turns or the gauge of wire,then RE
                                  > > would have
                                  > > done it.I would imagine that the Max number of turns have already been
                                  > > fitted-any larger and the coils would touch the adjacent coils-then you
                                  > > would need to make the stator diameter larger,then of course,it
                                  > > wouldn't fit
                                  > > in the chaincase-back to square one!
                                  >
                                  > You are expressing assumptions here which oppose the findings of those who
                                  > have actually looked at things. The stator of my bike's alternator lies on
                                  > my workbench, that is how I know how the coils are connected. That is why
                                  I
                                  > cannot measure the output myself. I also know there IS room on the coils.
                                  > What are we to gain here by these assumptions?
                                  >
                                  > > Still don't get the point about shorting coils ,though.Why would Madras
                                  > > consider this,when there is perfectly adequate,tried and tested methods
                                  of
                                  > > regulation available?
                                  >
                                  > Simple. I costs nothing. Nothing needs to be added to make it work,
                                  > everything required is already there. And it actually works too.
                                  >
                                  > > For the alternator voltage test,disconnect the two wires which go
                                  > > across the
                                  > > bridge,(I'm assuming this is how Madras have wired it) connect
                                  >
                                  > Before we continue the assuming game, why not check our facts? Than we can
                                  > proceed to have a meaningful and constructive dialog. Suppose I were to
                                  show
                                  > up on an engineering meeting and present the group a theory based on
                                  > assumptions which, if I had taken the time, could have checked?
                                  > Notwithstanding my career, what would happen to my credibility?
                                  >
                                  > > Voltmeter or
                                  > > oscilloscope across these two leads,start bike and give it a
                                  > > handful.As you
                                  > > said yourself,above a certain rotational speed,no more power will be
                                  > > produced,so there's no need to give it 5000 RPM!
                                  >
                                  > <snip>
                                  >
                                  > Please do not feel personally attacked, that is not my intent. I love to
                                  > discuss this subject with you and anyone else who's interested. Nandan and
                                  > myself are looking for practical and economical options to the current
                                  (pun
                                  > intended :-) ) configuration. Assumptions have a place in engineering, but
                                  > only in the absence of available facts. Even then they are to be treated
                                  > with great caution.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers, BILL
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
                                  > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
                                  > no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
                                  > credit youdeserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
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                                • RylEnfield@aol.com
                                  We have one customer who very neatly drilled a hole in the front and rear of his tool boxes for extra cooling when moving some of the electrics. He used a
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 8, 2000
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                                    We have one customer who very neatly drilled a hole in the front and rear of
                                    his tool boxes for extra cooling when moving some of the electrics. He used a
                                    piece of screen on the inside to keep bugs etc out. It was a very sanitary
                                    looking modification that will help i'm sure
                                  • Frank Valentin
                                    Was that you Kevin? Thx for this info! this sounds like a very good idea! I will keep this in mind and will do this mod after some testrides. Thx again. Frank
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 8, 2000
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                                      Was that you Kevin?
                                      Thx for this info! this sounds like a very good idea! I will keep this
                                      in mind and will do this mod after some testrides.
                                      Thx again.
                                      Frank


                                      rylenfiel-@... wrote:
                                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/royalenfield/?start=3170
                                      > We have one customer who very neatly drilled a hole in the front and
                                      rear of
                                      > his tool boxes for extra cooling when moving some of the electrics.
                                      He used a
                                      > piece of screen on the inside to keep bugs etc out. It was a very
                                      sanitary
                                      > looking modification that will help i'm sure
                                    • gurunandan
                                      ... Cool Idea! (heh, heh) But how about a small drain hole also to prevent accumulation of water if it rains? This helps even if there is no cooling
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 8, 2000
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                                        --- RylEnfield@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > We have one customer who very neatly drilled a hole
                                        > in the front and rear of
                                        > his tool boxes for extra cooling when moving some of
                                        > the electrics. He used a
                                        > piece of screen on the inside to keep bugs etc out.
                                        > It was a very sanitary
                                        > looking modification that will help i'm sure
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------------
                                        Cool Idea! (heh, heh)

                                        But how about a small drain hole also to prevent
                                        accumulation of water if it rains? This helps even if
                                        there is no cooling vent-holes!
                                        Regards,
                                        Nandan
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