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RE: [rootsradicals] Re: tubeless and pumps

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  • Tone
    Wes, This feels like a rather naïve question coming from me, but can you explain what you mean by “tubeless.” I have been a cyclist for a LONG time
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 5, 2009

      Wes,

                  This feels like a rather naïve question coming from me, but can you explain what you mean by “tubeless.” I have been a cyclist for a LONG time (working as a messenger in NYC for many years as well as being active in my cycling communities), and I THOUGHT I knew a few riders, who used tubeless tires. However, in one of your posts you said, “The biggest thing I like about tubeless is NO FLATS & light tires.”

                  That statement of yours goes against what I understood about tubeless tires. My knowledge of tubeless tires has been they are simply tires, which have the “tube” built into their construction so it is all one piece. From my understanding you still have to inflate them once you have them on, and I was very much under the impression they can still get flats/punctures, etc. I thought once you get a significant flat on a tubeless tire you basically have to replace the entire tire, rather than just patch-up or replace a tube inside a tire like a normal tube-n-tire set up.

                  I also seem to remember some tubeless riders I know being concerned with tubeless tires “rolling” off their rim under certain extreme conditions. I suppose “extreme” might include crazy maneuvers in NYC traffic, etc. I guess I have always been under the impression tubeless tires were more for competitive cyclists, who want as less weight/resistance on their bikes as possible, which would include track & time-trails type racers. All the cyclists and messengers I knew, who used tubeless, were velodrome competitors, and some of them were just so hardcore (or simply did not have enough money for a second bike) they would ride their track racing tubeless bikes every day for messenger work.

       

                  The only other kind of “tubeless” tires I know of are bikes I have seen with “solid” tires/tubes. By this I mean the tubes or tires do not use air, but instead are either completely made of a foam substance inside or are tubes filled with an expanding foam substance. These kinds of tires are significantly heavier, and if punctured can keep rolling like nothing happened because they simply can not be deflated due to being filled with foam. Of course these kinds of “foam” tubed tires can not have their “pressure” adjusted. I have never personally ridden or even felt such tires. I have only seen them on-line. The times I have seen them they are usually associated with military bikes, like a folding “parachuter” bike, which seemed ridiculously heavy in general. I suppose if you are in a combat and/or rugged environment you simply just want to have something that is pretty much bomb-proof.

       

                  So Wes, please explain what you meant by tubeless tires. If there is a tire out there, which does not get flats and is lighter, then I think I might want to check them out! Normally I only buy Kevlar tires and squirt Slime puncture sealant into them as an added protection against flats. I use to only buy Avocet 1.5” Cross II-K tires, but I do not think they make them anymore (even though the avocet web site is still viewable on-line). At the moment the inverted tread on my old Avocet tires is almost worn out, but I have not had a flat on them in about a year, so I am basically riding them out for as long as I can. I have already gotten a pair of Schwalbe Marathon 26x1.5” Kevlar tires hanging in the closet for when my current Avocets finally do give out.

       

                  Something just occurred to me… maybe what I was thinking were tubeless tires, were actually TUBULAR tires. Now I think I am even more confused. J Could you please still explain? I am feeling pretty ignorant right now. You would think after being a full time messenger for several years, participating in and organizing numerous cycling races and events, bike touring in places all around the globe, commuting every day for work, and being part of the cargo-bike revolution…. I would already know and understand exactly what all of these terminologies refer to. <sigh> J

       

      _TONE_

       

    • Morgan
      Hey Rick, Wondering why you say this? I recently switched my Dummy over to the Hookwoorms, and for my rear tire I have it at maximum PSI. Even though it is
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 5, 2009
        Hey Rick,
        Wondering why you say this? I recently switched my 'Dummy over to the
        Hookwoorms, and for my rear tire I have it at maximum PSI. Even
        though it is such a huge tire, I am definitely getting better
        efficiency out of them. I see it as a truck tire - the bigger the
        truck, the larger the tire and higher the pressure. I still find the
        ride to be very smooth even at 60 PSI. Is there some safety reason
        you say not to do that? I've even ridden mine through thick goopy
        mud, wet grass, gravel, etc - and still no problems at this pressure.
        Morgan



        > Posted by: "Rick Pickett" rick.pickett@... rickpickett3Thu Apr
        > 2, 2009 6:05 pm (PDT)
        > Wow, David! Don't rock those babies out to their full amount... You
        > can safely, and smoothly run them at 40psi... I rock mine around
        > 20-30psi and not lose much in terms of rolling resistance (and
        > improved grip too).
        >
        > I keep my pump, a tiny one by SKS, in my inner FreeLoader flap. Takes
        > about 2-3 minutes to fill mine. Would like a wider barrel if I got a
        > new one.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Rick
      • Pete B
        Tone, I think there may be some confusion between Tubeless and Tubular
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 5, 2009
          Tone,

          I think there may be some confusion between Tubeless and Tubular.

          Tubeless tyres/rims are the bicycle equivalent of the automotive tubeless tyre. The valve is attached to the (usually tubeless specific) wheel rim and a clincher type tyre (without a tube) is mounted in much the same way as a normal clincher. Naturally the rim has to be airtight, so all the spoke holes (if any) must be sealed off and the valve must have an airtight fitting.
          There are many different tubeless systems for cycling of which Mavics UST would appear to be the most common. http://www.tubelesswheels.com/commercial.html

          Tubulars are the lightweight tyres (preferred by track & road racers) where the tyre is made up of a tube sewn or moulded into a lightweight outer casing which is then glued onto a tubular specific rim, e.g. http://www.cyclespeed.com.au/p/470335/schwalbe-stelvio-tubular-road-tyre.html

          It's funny though, I wouldn't have thought Tubulars would be popular with couriers as it is not the easiest puncture to repair "in the field".  Pro roadies on tubulars would simply have their mechanic swap wheels/bikes to overcome flats during a race, a service yearned for, but not yet available to the everyday cyclist or courier ;-)

          Pete.B

          2009/4/5 Tone <tone@...>

          Wes,

                      This feels like a rather naïve question coming from me, but can you explain what you mean by “tubeless.” I have been a cyclist for a LONG time (working as a messenger in NYC for many years as well as being active in my cycling communities), and I THOUGHT I knew a few riders, who used tubeless tires. However, in one of your posts you said, “The biggest thing I like about tubeless is NO FLATS & light tires.”

                      That statement of yours goes against what I understood about tubeless tires. My knowledge of tubeless tires has been they are simply tires, which have the “tube” built into their construction so it is all one piece. From my understanding you still have to inflate them once you have them on, and I was very much under the impression they can still get flats/punctures, etc. I thought once you get a significant flat on a tubeless tire you basically have to replace the entire tire, rather than just patch-up or replace a tube inside a tire like a normal tube-n-tire set up.

                      I also seem to remember some tubeless riders I know being concerned with tubeless tires “rolling” off their rim under certain extreme conditions. I suppose “extreme” might include crazy maneuvers in NYC traffic, etc. I guess I have always been under the impression tubeless tires were more for competitive cyclists, who want as less weight/resistance on their bikes as possible, which would include track & time-trails type racers. All the cyclists and messengers I knew, who used tubeless, were velodrome competitors, and some of them were just so hardcore (or simply did not have enough money for a second bike) they would ride their track racing tubeless bikes every day for messenger work.

           

                      The only other kind of “tubeless” tires I know of are bikes I have seen with “solid” tires/tubes. By this I mean the tubes or tires do not use air, but instead are either completely made of a foam substance inside or are tubes filled with an expanding foam substance. These kinds of tires are significantly heavier, and if punctured can keep rolling like nothing happened because they simply can not be deflated due to being filled with foam. Of course these kinds of “foam” tubed tires can not have their “pressure” adjusted. I have never personally ridden or even felt such tires. I have only seen them on-line. The times I have seen them they are usually associated with military bikes, like a folding “parachuter” bike, which seemed ridiculously heavy in general. I suppose if you are in a combat and/or rugged environment you simply just want to have something that is pretty much bomb-proof.

           

                      So Wes, please explain what you meant by tubeless tires. If there is a tire out there, which does not get flats and is lighter, then I think I might want to check them out! Normally I only buy Kevlar tires and squirt Slime puncture sealant into them as an added protection against flats. I use to only buy Avocet 1.5” Cross II-K tires, but I do not think they make them anymore (even though the avocet web site is still viewable on-line). At the moment the inverted tread on my old Avocet tires is almost worn out, but I have not had a flat on them in about a year, so I am basically riding them out for as long as I can. I have already gotten a pair of Schwalbe Marathon 26x1.5” Kevlar tires hanging in the closet for when my current Avocets finally do give out.

           

                      Something just occurred to me… maybe what I was thinking were tubeless tires, were actually TUBULAR tires. Now I think I am even more confused. J Could you please still explain? I am feeling pretty ignorant right now. You would think after being a full time messenger for several years, participating in and organizing numerous cycling races and events, bike touring in places all around the globe, commuting every day for work, and being part of the cargo-bike revolution…. I would already know and understand exactly what all of these terminologies refer to. <sigh> J

           

          _TONE_

           


        • watrout
          Hey Tone, Go with Pete B s description for tubular tires - I ve never heard of those so I have no idea. As far as tubeless goes you can go a couple different
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009
            Hey Tone,

            Go with Pete B's description for tubular tires - I've never heard of those so I have no idea. As far as tubeless goes you can go a couple different ways -- "tubeless" specific rims and tires or a sealant based system with standard rims/tires (which is what I run). Tubeless specific rims and tires are pretty expensive, the selection is fairly limited, and from my understanding, the tires are considerably heavier and more expensive than a comparable "standard" tire (when you see "UST" on the tire or rim that means it can be run tubeless).

            With a sealant based tubeless setup there are a couple things that need to happen.
            The rim needs to be sealed - this is usually done with a special rim strip or you can go ghetto, which is basically taking an old tube, cutting down the middle and using it as the rim strip. I've used both and like both fairly well. In my experience the ghetto method airs up the easiest and seems to be very air tight, but you have to use a new tube for the rimstrip every time you remount the tire. The manufactured rim strip method works better for remounting tires.

            The key is the sealant - which actually works unlike Slime which IMO completely sucks at doing what it's supposed to do. There's lot more information if you go to notubes.com -- that's the "Stan's" system which works well but is expensive compared to the ghetto method - however it's still inexpensive compared to true UST. Also MTBR.com and youtube (search ghetto tubeless on youtube).

            Good luck,
            Wes

            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tone" <tone@...> wrote:
            >
            > Wes,
            > This feels like a rather naïve question coming from me, but
            > can you explain what you mean by "tubeless." I have been a cyclist for a
            > LONG time (working as a messenger in NYC for many years as well as being
            > active in my cycling communities), and I THOUGHT I knew a few riders,
            > who used tubeless tires. However, in one of your posts you said, "The
            > biggest thing I like about tubeless is NO FLATS & light tires."
            > That statement of yours goes against what I understood about
            > tubeless tires. My knowledge of tubeless tires has been they are simply
            > tires, which have the "tube" built into their construction so it is all
            > one piece. From my understanding you still have to inflate them once you
            > have them on, and I was very much under the impression they can still
            > get flats/punctures, etc. I thought once you get a significant flat on a
            > tubeless tire you basically have to replace the entire tire, rather than
            > just patch-up or replace a tube inside a tire like a normal tube-n-tire
            > set up.
            > I also seem to remember some tubeless riders I know being
            > concerned with tubeless tires "rolling" off their rim under certain
            > extreme conditions. I suppose "extreme" might include crazy maneuvers in
            > NYC traffic, etc. I guess I have always been under the impression
            > tubeless tires were more for competitive cyclists, who want as less
            > weight/resistance on their bikes as possible, which would include track
            > & time-trails type racers. All the cyclists and messengers I knew, who
            > used tubeless, were velodrome competitors, and some of them were just so
            > hardcore (or simply did not have enough money for a second bike) they
            > would ride their track racing tubeless bikes every day for messenger
            > work.
            >
            > The only other kind of "tubeless" tires I know of are bikes
            > I have seen with "solid" tires/tubes. By this I mean the tubes or tires
            > do not use air, but instead are either completely made of a foam
            > substance inside or are tubes filled with an expanding foam substance.
            > These kinds of tires are significantly heavier, and if punctured can
            > keep rolling like nothing happened because they simply can not be
            > deflated due to being filled with foam. Of course these kinds of "foam"
            > tubed tires can not have their "pressure" adjusted. I have never
            > personally ridden or even felt such tires. I have only seen them
            > on-line. The times I have seen them they are usually associated with
            > military bikes, like a folding "parachuter" bike, which seemed
            > ridiculously heavy in general. I suppose if you are in a combat and/or
            > rugged environment you simply just want to have something that is pretty
            > much bomb-proof.
            >
            > So Wes, please explain what you meant by tubeless tires. If
            > there is a tire out there, which does not get flats and is lighter, then
            > I think I might want to check them out! Normally I only buy Kevlar tires
            > and squirt Slime puncture sealant into them as an added protection
            > against flats. I use to only buy Avocet 1.5" Cross II-K tires, but I do
            > not think they make them anymore (even though the avocet web site is
            > still viewable on-line). At the moment the inverted tread on my old
            > Avocet tires is almost worn out, but I have not had a flat on them in
            > about a year, so I am basically riding them out for as long as I can. I
            > have already gotten a pair of Schwalbe Marathon 26x1.5" Kevlar tires
            > hanging in the closet for when my current Avocets finally do give out.
            >
            > Something just occurred to me… maybe what I was thinking
            > were tubeless tires, were actually TUBULAR tires. Now I think I am even
            > more confused. :-) Could you please still explain? I am feeling pretty
            > ignorant right now. You would think after being a full time messenger
            > for several years, participating in and organizing numerous cycling
            > races and events, bike touring in places all around the globe, commuting
            > every day for work, and being part of the cargo-bike revolution…. I
            > would already know and understand exactly what all of these
            > terminologies refer to. <sigh> :-)
            >
            > _TONE_
            >
          • Tone
            Pete B., Thanks for the clarification about tubeless tires. I honestly had no idea such a thing as tubeless tires existed. I knew what a tubular tire was, so I
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009
              Pete B.,

              Thanks for the clarification about tubeless tires. I honestly had no idea
              such a thing as tubeless tires existed. I knew what a tubular tire was, so
              I guess I was just mixing it up. Even after reading your description and
              following the links it still took me a bit to totally comprehend. Although
              I must say, I still do not see how a tubeless tire would not get a flat. I
              understand that by being tubeless there is no chance of a "pinch-flat",
              but I can not see how a tubeless tire is any more resistant to puncture
              flats (glass, thorns, tacks, etc.) compared to any other tubed-tire. If
              they are puncture resistant, and I am missing something, please elaborate.
              From my understanding after your explanation and reading through those
              links you included, it seems like home-made/"ghetto"/Do-It-Yourself
              tubeless tires might require a tire sealant during the creation process,
              so perhaps the sealant prevents punctures later on as well. However, I do
              not see how that is any different than a tube-tire with sealant injected
              in the tube.

              As for tubular tires... maybe I should clarify my past understanding of
              them. When I said, "All the cyclists and messengers I knew, who used
              tubeless, were velodrome competitors," I did not mean every messenger I
              know used tubular tires. I simply meant the few dudes riding on tubular
              tires I did know all pretty much raced on the track. In total I probably
              only knew three to four cyclists, who used tubular tires off the track. I
              would say two of those only used their tubular-tire equipped bikes for
              messenger work on velodrome racing days (Wednesday evenings at Kissena
              Velodrome in Queens) during cycle-track racing season. That way they could
              go straight to the track from work. Other than that I think I only knew of
              one messenger chick, who used tubular tires on a regular basis. Even in
              her case I only knew her to work as an NYC messenger for a year or so.

              _TONE_
            • watrout
              Tone, Maybe I should clarify a bit here - it s not that you can t get a flat with tubeless tires, but in my experience so far I don t get flats. That s
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009
                Tone,

                Maybe I should clarify a bit here - it's not that you "can't" get a flat with tubeless tires, but in my experience so far I "don't" get flats. That's not to say my tires don't get punctured, but the sealant I use for my tubeless setups actually seals punctures, unlike Sime, which in my experience almost always does nothing but spew floressent green spuge all over my bike and anything close to it. Now you can (and I have) put the tubeless sealant inside a tube if you want to - assuming you're working with a tube with a removable valve core (schrader). I did this on my wife's bike a few weeks ago. Her rear tire kept going flat and I'd already fixed it a couple times so I just threw some of my tubeless sealant inside the tube and haven't lost any air out of it since. I don't know if there are any long term consequences to using tubeless sealant in a tube though, although I can't think of why there would be.

                This idea of sealing punctures instead of preventing them is a big shift in thinking for me. Keep in mind I used to run TR tubes, tuffies & slime - but I realized I wasn't actually preventing punctures - because the tire was still getting punctured - I was only preventing those punctures from penetrating the tube. Therefore, logic dictates that if punctures are going to happen regardless, and I can seal those punctures directly at the tire then why mess with all the rest of it?!? BTW - take a look at this video, I fully believe it's for real -- http://www.notubes.com/movie_newdemo.php

                I also notice a big difference in rotation resistance going from a tire fully loaded with every flat prevention method known, to a naked tire with some sealant. Plus you can run lower pressures because there is no threat of pinch flatting (when you run low pressure with tubes, the tube can get pinched between the tire and rim when heavily compressed). I really like the lower pressure on my X because it's a fully rigid bike, so using the tires as my suspension makes a big difference.

                Keep in mind, tubeless is not for everyone - I know guys who tried it and hated it - but most of those cases are people who went the "true" tubless route (UST tires & rims). And there are some drawbacks. For instance, if you use Stan's sealant you have to put more inside the tire every 2 months or so. I overcame that by making my own sealant - which suposedly will keep working for 1-2 years or better (obviously I can't vouch for that yet but it has already been longer than 2 months). Also, as I said before it can make changing tires a little more difficult and/or messy. So if you're someones who likes to change tires a lot, it might not be for you. For me there's no comparison, and barring some tubeless catastrophe, I'll be running tubeless from now on.

                Hope that helps,
                Wes


                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tone" <tone@...> wrote:
                >
                > Pete B.,
                >
                > Thanks for the clarification about tubeless tires. I honestly had no idea
                > such a thing as tubeless tires existed. I knew what a tubular tire was, so
                > I guess I was just mixing it up. Even after reading your description and
                > following the links it still took me a bit to totally comprehend. Although
                > I must say, I still do not see how a tubeless tire would not get a flat. I
                > understand that by being tubeless there is no chance of a "pinch-flat",
                > but I can not see how a tubeless tire is any more resistant to puncture
                > flats (glass, thorns, tacks, etc.) compared to any other tubed-tire. If
                > they are puncture resistant, and I am missing something, please elaborate.
                > From my understanding after your explanation and reading through those
                > links you included, it seems like home-made/"ghetto"/Do-It-Yourself
                > tubeless tires might require a tire sealant during the creation process,
                > so perhaps the sealant prevents punctures later on as well. However, I do
                > not see how that is any different than a tube-tire with sealant injected
                > in the tube.
                >
                > As for tubular tires... maybe I should clarify my past understanding of
                > them. When I said, "All the cyclists and messengers I knew, who used
                > tubeless, were velodrome competitors," I did not mean every messenger I
                > know used tubular tires. I simply meant the few dudes riding on tubular
                > tires I did know all pretty much raced on the track. In total I probably
                > only knew three to four cyclists, who used tubular tires off the track. I
                > would say two of those only used their tubular-tire equipped bikes for
                > messenger work on velodrome racing days (Wednesday evenings at Kissena
                > Velodrome in Queens) during cycle-track racing season. That way they could
                > go straight to the track from work. Other than that I think I only knew of
                > one messenger chick, who used tubular tires on a regular basis. Even in
                > her case I only knew her to work as an NYC messenger for a year or so.
                >
                > _TONE_
                >
              • Tone
                Wes, Thanks for the added input on top of Pete B. s tubeless tire description. I must say though, I do not agree with you about Slime COMPLETELY sucking. It
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009
                  Wes,

                  Thanks for the added input on top of Pete B.'s tubeless tire description.

                  I must say though, I do not agree with you about Slime COMPLETELY sucking.
                  It definitely has its bad moments, but overall I like using the stuff.

                  First off, other than what it is SUPPOSE to do, Slime works terrific in
                  helping to locate any punctures if your intent is to patch them up.
                  Normally, finding small punctures can sometimes be pretty darn hard if it
                  is kind of dark or if you are unable to submerge a tube into water to look
                  for bubbles. With Slime though, you can not miss seeing where a puncture
                  is located. The trick then is to patch up the puncture without Slime
                  oozing out of the hole, which can be done fairly easily if you pinch down
                  hard on the puncture area and "sling" the entire tube around so the
                  centrifugal forces can spin the leftover Slime inside to the other end of
                  the tube.

                  Getting back to what Slime is "suppose" to do... I think it does a decent
                  job, definitely not perfect, but certainly more useful than not in my
                  opinion. There have been times where I have gone months without a flat,
                  then eventually I notice a slow leak. At some point I decide to finally
                  address the slow leak rather than simply pumping it up each time just to
                  get me to where I have to go. A lot of those times I discover I actually
                  end up having two to four punctures all over the wheel, which got clogged
                  up by the Slime and were from obviously different sources. I had only
                  reacted to the latest puncture because it had a large enough hole or
                  whatever to cause a slow leak. Rarely have I ever had a total flat from
                  one puncture while having Slime in my tires. When that happens it is
                  usually because of a nail or something of similar or bigger size. When
                  something like that occurs you usually immediately notice because of the
                  bright green geyser and accompanying deflation sounds. I do not think
                  there is much on the market, which can prevent a flat from a nail, but I
                  think for smaller punctures Slime does a respectable job.

                  By the way, if you notice a Slime spot appear due to a puncture in your
                  tire and you get a slow leak instead of a total flat, then I recommend you
                  try to keep riding so the Slime dispersal process continues. Slime
                  dispersal occurs naturally when the wheels are rolling, so the idea is to
                  try to keep spinning and hold out long enough so the Slime can clog up the
                  puncture. You will probably loose some air pressure, but you may likely be
                  able to continue going without riding on your rims until you can reach a
                  more convenient place to fix your flat. Alternately, but especially when
                  having to park your bike with a slime clogged puncture spot, you can try
                  keeping your bike up-right with the punctured wheel positioned so the
                  slow-leaking hole is down against the ground. Since the bike is parked,
                  the slime will pool at the bottom of the tube because it is heavier than
                  air, and it should completely clog up the puncture.

                  There were several times even while working as a messenger when I knew I
                  had a slow leak in a tire, but I went a week or two without patching or
                  replacing a punctured inner tube. Instead I just kept pumping up my tire a
                  couple of times a day and let the Slime hold off the inevitable.
                  Admittedly, the only reason I waited so long to fix those slow leaks was
                  usually due to sheer laziness and procrastination. After working all day I
                  simply did not want to deal with my bike anymore, then in the mornings and
                  during the day I just had to get to my pick-ups in time and/or without
                  possibly having dirty hands from fixing a flat.

                  So, in summary... I like Slime. :)
                  Ride safe,
                  _TONE_
                • watrout
                  Hey Tone, Sounds like you ve had better luck with slime than I ever did - however I would challenge that slime is alway advertised as a product to seal
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009
                    Hey Tone,

                    Sounds like you've had better luck with slime than I ever did - however I would challenge that slime is alway advertised as a product to "seal" and/or "stop" punctures and even as your testimony points out, on a good day it might "slow" a leak but rarely completely stops it. But alas, my intention is not to get into a slime battle with you. If it works for you, great keep using it. I've just always been a little disappointed in how the product works myself, so I was excited when I came across a product that actually did what slime claimed it could do.

                    To give you an idea, when I mounted my 1st tire using Stan's I took a pick (about the size of an ice pick) and slammed it into my newly mounted tire. Air came gushing out - as would be expected - I spun the tire once quickly and the hole completely sealed virtually instantly. I was very impressed.

                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tone" <tone@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Wes,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the added input on top of Pete B.'s tubeless tire description.
                    >
                    > I must say though, I do not agree with you about Slime COMPLETELY sucking.
                    > It definitely has its bad moments, but overall I like using the stuff.
                    >
                    > First off, other than what it is SUPPOSE to do, Slime works terrific in
                    > helping to locate any punctures if your intent is to patch them up.
                    > Normally, finding small punctures can sometimes be pretty darn hard if it
                    > is kind of dark or if you are unable to submerge a tube into water to look
                    > for bubbles. With Slime though, you can not miss seeing where a puncture
                    > is located. The trick then is to patch up the puncture without Slime
                    > oozing out of the hole, which can be done fairly easily if you pinch down
                    > hard on the puncture area and "sling" the entire tube around so the
                    > centrifugal forces can spin the leftover Slime inside to the other end of
                    > the tube.
                    >
                    > Getting back to what Slime is "suppose" to do... I think it does a decent
                    > job, definitely not perfect, but certainly more useful than not in my
                    > opinion. There have been times where I have gone months without a flat,
                    > then eventually I notice a slow leak. At some point I decide to finally
                    > address the slow leak rather than simply pumping it up each time just to
                    > get me to where I have to go. A lot of those times I discover I actually
                    > end up having two to four punctures all over the wheel, which got clogged
                    > up by the Slime and were from obviously different sources. I had only
                    > reacted to the latest puncture because it had a large enough hole or
                    > whatever to cause a slow leak. Rarely have I ever had a total flat from
                    > one puncture while having Slime in my tires. When that happens it is
                    > usually because of a nail or something of similar or bigger size. When
                    > something like that occurs you usually immediately notice because of the
                    > bright green geyser and accompanying deflation sounds. I do not think
                    > there is much on the market, which can prevent a flat from a nail, but I
                    > think for smaller punctures Slime does a respectable job.
                    >
                    > By the way, if you notice a Slime spot appear due to a puncture in your
                    > tire and you get a slow leak instead of a total flat, then I recommend you
                    > try to keep riding so the Slime dispersal process continues. Slime
                    > dispersal occurs naturally when the wheels are rolling, so the idea is to
                    > try to keep spinning and hold out long enough so the Slime can clog up the
                    > puncture. You will probably loose some air pressure, but you may likely be
                    > able to continue going without riding on your rims until you can reach a
                    > more convenient place to fix your flat. Alternately, but especially when
                    > having to park your bike with a slime clogged puncture spot, you can try
                    > keeping your bike up-right with the punctured wheel positioned so the
                    > slow-leaking hole is down against the ground. Since the bike is parked,
                    > the slime will pool at the bottom of the tube because it is heavier than
                    > air, and it should completely clog up the puncture.
                    >
                    > There were several times even while working as a messenger when I knew I
                    > had a slow leak in a tire, but I went a week or two without patching or
                    > replacing a punctured inner tube. Instead I just kept pumping up my tire a
                    > couple of times a day and let the Slime hold off the inevitable.
                    > Admittedly, the only reason I waited so long to fix those slow leaks was
                    > usually due to sheer laziness and procrastination. After working all day I
                    > simply did not want to deal with my bike anymore, then in the mornings and
                    > during the day I just had to get to my pick-ups in time and/or without
                    > possibly having dirty hands from fixing a flat.
                    >
                    > So, in summary... I like Slime. :)
                    > Ride safe,
                    > _TONE_
                    >
                  • Tone
                    Wes, What do you mean you do not want to get into a slime battle with me?! I double-dare ya! :-) If you ever saw that kid s game show on the Nickelodeon TV
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009

                      Wes,

                                  What do you mean you do not want to get into a slime battle with me?! I double-dare ya! J If you ever saw that kid’s game show on the Nickelodeon TV network, then that might seem somewhat amusing. Otherwise the reference is pretty blah, but it was a sad attempt at being at least somewhat funny.

                                  Anyway, it sounds like the sealant you have used for your tubeless tires is pretty good stuff… whether it is that “Stan’s” brand name or the stuff your mixed yourself. Care to share your secret recipe? If not, then I was going to ask you where to get that Stan’s sealant so I could try it out, but I followed that link to the video and was impressed. I am not going to continue arguing for Slime’s sake. It is after all SLIME… and can be kind of icky to deal with.

                                  Regardless, I have been thinking about what you have been saying about your own experiences with Slime. It sounds to me like you generally prefer lower tire pressures. I on the other hand prefer higher PSI, as in 80-90, on 1.25-1.5” wide tires. I suppose I have not found the need to have a knobby or cushy ride, which I always understood as contributing factors to rolling resistance, because I biked as a messenger on pavement the VAST majority of my riding. Once I switched to inverted-tread or smooth tires with higher PSI I never went back.

                                  I bring up the PSI and tire preference we each have because perhaps that contributed to the reasons why Slime did not work well for you. In my situation maybe having thinner tires allows more Slime to have a chance to clog up any punctures. Also, perhaps with a higher PSI there is more time to clog up any punctures because the added amount of air in my tires. These are just broad guesses on my part. I am totally not opposed to trying out some other kind of sealant because there have definitely been some instances when nail-level punctures have occurred and my higher PSI blew out a gush of Slime like some whale sneezing out of its blow-hole. Except my bike’s snot has the wondrous opportunity of spinning in circles and spraying Slime in 360 degrees of green goo fun. J

                       

                                  Thanks for sharing the info with me!

                      Ride safe,

                      _TONE_

                       

                       

                                 

                       

                    • watrout
                      Ha ha! The old double dare show never even crossed my mind when I wrote that...good callback! You may have a very valid point as far as tire pressures
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 6, 2009
                        Ha ha! The old double dare show never even crossed my mind when I wrote that...good callback! You may have a very valid point as far as tire pressures contributing to different experiences with slime. As far as tubeless, that's another (drawback?) of going tubless. I'm not sure how to qualify that exactly because one of the main "benefits" of tubeless is the ability to use very low tire pressures, but there definitly is an upper limit PSI that is obtainable with tubeless - so if you want to run anything over 60 PSI I'd suggest you look elsewhere. I'm certainly not going to argue the fact that higher PSI = less rolling resistance - my very little experience with road bikes definitely illustrated the fact that skinny, hard, smooth tires = very fast! I'm not sure which part of the equation makes the most difference, but my guess is narrow and smooth matters more than hard. The only reason I think that is I converted my cross bike over to tubeless and have noticed little if any additional rolling resistance from running lower pressure - but I definitely notice a difference going from my cross bike to my light mountain bike. They are close to the same weight, but the cross bike is much faster. I theorize that wide/nobby tires add a lot of wind resistance because as they rotate they are constantly cutting through the air so a wide tire with big nobs is going to grab a lot more air than skinny smooth(er) tires. In my particular case it can't be the wheel diameter difference because my light mountain bike is a 29er. As I said that's just my theory, I don't have any hard evidence to back it up, but I am always supprised when I jump on my cross bike how much faster it is than any of my mountain bikes.

                        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tone" <tone@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wes,
                        > What do you mean you do not want to get into a slime battle
                        > with me?! I double-dare ya! :-) If you ever saw that kid's game show on
                        > the Nickelodeon TV network, then that might seem somewhat amusing.
                        > Otherwise the reference is pretty blah, but it was a sad attempt at
                        > being at least somewhat funny.
                        > Anyway, it sounds like the sealant you have used for your
                        > tubeless tires is pretty good stuff. whether it is that "Stan's" brand
                        > name or the stuff your mixed yourself. Care to share your secret recipe?
                        > If not, then I was going to ask you where to get that Stan's sealant so
                        > I could try it out, but I followed that link to the video and was
                        > impressed. I am not going to continue arguing for Slime's sake. It is
                        > after all SLIME. and can be kind of icky to deal with.
                        > Regardless, I have been thinking about what you have been
                        > saying about your own experiences with Slime. It sounds to me like you
                        > generally prefer lower tire pressures. I on the other hand prefer higher
                        > PSI, as in 80-90, on 1.25-1.5" wide tires. I suppose I have not found
                        > the need to have a knobby or cushy ride, which I always understood as
                        > contributing factors to rolling resistance, because I biked as a
                        > messenger on pavement the VAST majority of my riding. Once I switched to
                        > inverted-tread or smooth tires with higher PSI I never went back.
                        > I bring up the PSI and tire preference we each have because
                        > perhaps that contributed to the reasons why Slime did not work well for
                        > you. In my situation maybe having thinner tires allows more Slime to
                        > have a chance to clog up any punctures. Also, perhaps with a higher PSI
                        > there is more time to clog up any punctures because the added amount of
                        > air in my tires. These are just broad guesses on my part. I am totally
                        > not opposed to trying out some other kind of sealant because there have
                        > definitely been some instances when nail-level punctures have occurred
                        > and my higher PSI blew out a gush of Slime like some whale sneezing out
                        > of its blow-hole. Except my bike's snot has the wondrous opportunity of
                        > spinning in circles and spraying Slime in 360 degrees of green goo fun.
                        > :-)
                        >
                        > Thanks for sharing the info with me!
                        > Ride safe,
                        > _TONE_
                        >
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