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Re: [rootsradicals] Ross' Toothpick Kickstand Concept

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  • John Speare
    ... the last point around loading/unloading is what got me searching for a better kickstand for the xtracycle. the stock kickstand is ok if you never
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 18, 2006
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      On 12/18/06, Paul Freedman <paul@...> wrote:
      >>
      > Hey Roots and Ross,
      >
      >>
      > 1. Designing a good kickstand for a cargo bike can be as hard as designing the entire rest of the bike.
      > 2. It's possible to build a very lightweight kickstand that still supports the weight of the bike in a sturdy manner. Basically, his point is that, if the bike were perfectly balanced, poised to fall either left or right, then even a pair of toothpicks could support the bike.
      >
      > I have to say that after spending a couple weeks on this, I agree with number 1 and disagree strongly with 2. The main problem with 2 is that we use our bikes and need to be able to load and unload them. The bike actually sees a lot of action during this time. A kickstand may be able to lock at the zero balance point, but what are you going to do after you unload your messenger bag from one side and the balance is skewed?
      >
      >

      the last point around loading/unloading is what got me searching for a
      better kickstand for the xtracycle. the stock kickstand is ok if you
      never load/unload the bike, but as anyone knows who actually loads the
      bike up witha significant load, the stock stand is pretty inadequate.

      the center stands sold by xtraccyle fails in the value department and
      in that they cannot be used with wide loaders.

      i ended up finding a guy in seattle who makes a spring loaded center
      stand that is perfect.

      pic here: http://www.johndogfood.com/john/reduced/07-04-06%20033.jpg

      I often have my 3 y.o. girl sitting on a seat on the top tube while i
      load up groceries in the xtraccyle. it has to be stable, since she
      wiggles around while i'm loading. the stand i bought has never failed
      me. there are some pics and contact info on this page:
      http://www.johndogfood.com/x

      --
      John Speare
      Spokane, WA USA
      http://cyclingspokane.blogspot.com/
    • Jody Drew
      Hi, Don t the brakes provide all the stand you need? I ve used a little plastic bit made to hold the brake pedal closed, or extendeing the cable, then leaned
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 18, 2006
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        Hi,
        Don't the brakes provide all the stand you need? I've used a little plastic bit made to hold the
        brake pedal closed, or extendeing the cable, then leaned the bike on something handy: fence,
        parking meter, wall, etc. Let me know what's wrong/ignorant about this idea? I'm still a wannabe
        Xtra, and I may have missed some of this discussion.
        Jody
        Lamy, NM
        --- Paul Freedman <paul@...> wrote:

        > Hey Roots and Ross,
        >
        > I've been desiging and building a kickstand for my new Soul Cycle
        > Chopper<http://www.flickr.com/photos/28602169@N00/sets/72157594296549639/>.
        > It's not built on an Xtracycle frame, but it is built with the same
        > wheelbase and load-carrying intentions. I've been thinking a lot about two
        > insights Ross has given me about kickstand design:
        >
        > 1. Designing a good kickstand for a cargo bike can be as hard as designing
        > the entire rest of the bike.
        > 2. It's possible to build a very lightweight kickstand that still supports
        > the weight of the bike in a sturdy manner. Basically, his point is that, if
        > the bike were perfectly balanced, poised to fall either left or right, then
        > even a pair of toothpicks could support the bike.
        >
        > I have to say that after spending a couple weeks on this, I agree with
        > number 1 and disagree strongly with 2. The main problem with 2 is that we
        > use our bikes and need to be able to load and unload them. The bike actually
        > sees a lot of action during this time. A kickstand may be able to lock at
        > the zero balance point, but what are you going to do after you unload your
        > messenger bag from one side and the balance is skewed?
        >
        > I'll let you all know how my kickstand progresses.
        >
        > Also, two cool bits for those with a little surfing time....
        >
        > Here's a pretty hot picture of my most recent Soul Cycle
        > Slim<http://fossilfool.com/soul-cycle/soul-cycle-slim.php>in action at
        > a recent Mission District party for Songbird and Creative
        > Commons. http://flickr.com/photos/28602169@N00/323764739/
        >
        > Also, I was recently interviewed
        > <http://bittercyclist.com/v3/2006/10/15/profile-paul-freedman/>by the bike
        > blog Bitter Cyclist.
        >
        > Yours,
        >
        > Paul
        >
        > -----------------------------------------
        >
        > Paul Freedman
        > Fossil Fool
        >
        > "The Only Safety Products Bikers Can't Wait to Use!"
        >
        > Available at: www.fossilfool.com
        > Phone: Toll-free 1-888-DLG-BIKE
        > Local: 415-810-3696
        > Fax: 443-347-0521
        > Email: paul@...
        >
        > Address:
        > 1336 Channing Way
        > Berkeley, CA 94702
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------
        > Worldbike
        > Bikes that Haul, for All
        > 510-548-2453
        > www.worldbike.org
        >
      • Jeff Youngstrom
        ... Yes, I could lean the bike against something to hold it up once it was loaded: http://flickr.com/photos/jeffyoungstrom/321575573/ but keeping the bike
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 18, 2006
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          On 12/18/06, Jody Drew <jody_drew@...> wrote:
          > Hi,
          > Don't the brakes provide all the stand you need? I've used a little plastic bit made to hold the
          > brake pedal closed, or extendeing the cable, then leaned the bike on something handy: fence,
          > parking meter, wall, etc. Let me know what's wrong/ignorant about this idea? I'm still a wannabe
          > Xtra, and I may have missed some of this discussion.

          Yes, I could lean the bike against something to hold it up once it was loaded:

          http://flickr.com/photos/jeffyoungstrom/321575573/

          but keeping the bike upright while putting that stuff on there is a trick.

          I've drooled over that stand John Speare keeps pointing to, but when I
          saw the $200 price tag at Aaron's
          (http://www.rideyourbike.com/xtracycle.html scroll down) my inner
          cheapskate crawled off into the corner whimpering.

          Guess I'll just have to save my pennies.

          jeffy
        • Devian Gilbert
          Uhhh... i thought the same thing too initially but then once i started to really add weight, and volume, it became apparent. then i put on widersloaders...
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 19, 2006
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            Uhhh...
            i thought the same thing too
            initially
            but then once i started to really add weight, and volume, it became apparent.
            then i put on widersloaders...
            with a long loader
            ya you need a kick stand
            then i realized the long loader is best on the kickstand side (since i only have 1 long loader)
            this way, I typically start loading on the kick stand side.
            and yes...closing the brakes helps to hold the bike still too.

            I like to use a large duffel, or BOB trailer drysack, with a PacSafe http://www.pac-safe.com/www/index.php?_room=3&_action=detail&id=48 stainless steel mesh locking net to really keep things secure...if needed.

            "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race." H.G. Wells
            http://www.mac.com/asanacycles

            On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Jody Drew wrote:

            Hi,
            Don't the brakes provide all the stand you need? I've used a little plastic bit made to hold the
            brake pedal closed, or extendeing the cable, then leaned the bike on something handy: fence,
            parking meter, wall, etc. Let me know what's wrong/ignorant about this idea? I'm still a wannabe
            Xtra, and I may have missed some of this discussion.
            Jody
            Lamy, NM
            --- Paul Freedman <paul@fossilfool.com> wrote:

            > Hey Roots and Ross,
            >
            > I've been desiging and building a kickstand for my new Soul Cycle
            > Chopper<http://www.flickr.com/photos/28602169@N00/sets/72157594296549639/>.
            > It's not built on an Xtracycle frame, but it is built with the same
            > wheelbase and load-carrying intentions. I've been thinking a lot about two
            > insights Ross has given me about kickstand design:
            >
            > 1. Designing a good kickstand for a cargo bike can be as hard as designing
            > the entire rest of the bike.
            > 2. It's possible to build a very lightweight kickstand that still supports
            > the weight of the bike in a sturdy manner. Basically, his point is that, if
            > the bike were perfectly balanced, poised to fall either left or right, then
            > even a pair of toothpicks could support the bike.
            >
            > I have to say that after spending a couple weeks on this, I agree with
            > number 1 and disagree strongly with 2. The main problem with 2 is that we
            > use our bikes and need to be able to load and unload them. The bike actually
            > sees a lot of action during this time. A kickstand may be able to lock at
            > the zero balance point, but what are you going to do after you unload your
            > messenger bag from one side and the balance is skewed?
            >
            > I'll let you all know how my kickstand progresses.
            >
            > Also, two cool bits for those with a little surfing time....
            >
            > Here's a pretty hot picture of my most recent Soul Cycle
            > Slim<http://fossilfool.com/soul-cycle/soul-cycle-slim.php>in action at
            > a recent Mission District party for Songbird and Creative
            > Commons. http://flickr.com/photos/28602169@N00/323764739/
            >
            > Also, I was recently interviewed
            > <http://bittercyclist.com/v3/2006/10/15/profile-paul-freedman/>by the bike
            > blog Bitter Cyclist.
            >
            > Yours,
            >
            > Paul
            >
            > -----------------------------------------
            >
            > Paul Freedman
            > Fossil Fool
            >
            > "The Only Safety Products Bikers Can't Wait to Use!"
            >
            > Available at: www.fossilfool.com
            > Phone: Toll-free 1-888-DLG-BIKE
            > Local: 415-810-3696
            > Fax: 443-347-0521
            > Email: paul@fossilfool.com
            >
            > Address:
            > 1336 Channing Way
            > Berkeley, CA 94702
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------
            > Worldbike
            > Bikes that Haul, for All
            > 510-548-2453
            > www.worldbike.org
            >


          • Ian Hopper
            I too have one of Val Kleiss s center stands, and can testify to it s bomber construction and ease of use. If only Xtracycle would start paying Val to make
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 21, 2006
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              I too have one of Val Kleiss's center stands, and can testify to it's bomber construction and ease of use. If only Xtracycle would start paying Val to make these en-masse or license the idea from him or (or god forbid) come up with something even better! Perhaps Paul (Fossil Fool) is on the right track, as he's well connected with Xtracycle and Kipchoge...??? Of course, his design may not adapt well to standard bike/xtracycle matings. Paul? Kipchoge? You guys wanna weigh in for us? It seems that the Big Dummy (or whatever it's going to finally be called) is going to need a good centerstand: I for one would like to see it built in, as a true cargo longtail deserves a proper centerstand. As someone recently pointed out, the market for the Big Dummy isn't likely to pull the standard x-conversion people away and adding a centerstand option is pretty nice, and considering I paid over $150 for my Val Kleiss centerstand and feel that it was worth it, maybe there are others who feel this way too? 

              BTW, I found some center stands here: http://www.velorution.biz/?page_id=1045
              They are in the U.K, but perhaps someplace like Harris Cyclery (where Sheldon Brown is from) might import these, or Peter White Cycles or even Hiawatha Cyclery Minneapolis. 

              Ian Hopper
            • karpaydiem
              After breaking two of the aluminium kickstands, I considered Val s centerstand, but thought it might be too much of a hassle to lift up a loaded bike onto it.
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 23, 2006
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                After breaking two of the aluminium kickstands, I considered Val's
                centerstand, but thought it might be too much of a hassle to lift up a
                loaded bike onto it. I'm glad to read that it works easily. Still I
                wonder how it would work on steep hills, ala San Francisco.

                My solution was to go to steel. After searching in vain for any bike
                kickstand made out steel, I visited my local motorcycle junk yard and
                found a home-made steel stand that weighs about as much as a good road
                bike. With a little modification, it has served very well and I'm
                really confident it won't break in my lifetime.

                Getting the angle and the length just right took a bit of trial and
                error, but I have yet to experience the bike falling over. I make sure
                I'm headed uphill, so the rolling of the bike doesn't close the stand.

                Picture here:

                http://tinyurl.com/y9wwl5

                I couldn't make the old stiff short spring work quite right and used
                the bungie/cable thimble rig just temporarily until I could get a
                replacement. By now (3 months later), I like how the bungie works so
                well that I never think to replace it with a steel spring.



                - Bill
              • Tone
                Bill, Nice adapted retrofit of the motorcycle kickstand. I was thinking of trying to find a similar part for my own Xtracycle. Too bad it sounds like it adds
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 27, 2006
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                  Bill,

                              Nice adapted retrofit of the motorcycle kickstand. I was thinking of trying to find a similar part for my own Xtracycle. Too bad it sounds like it adds 10-20 pounds to the bike though. L Would you say the weight is just a factor involved with the particular kickstand you used or do you think maybe a person could find a lighter “scooter” kickstand or something?

                              Also, nice quick-fix of the bungee cord to replace the kickstand spring. I have also seen a bungee cord connected from a rear derailleur to the rear step in order to increase drive-chain tension since the FreeRadical’s chain length is so long.

                  _TONE_

                   

                • wade714
                  ... bad ... i have a lashout electric bike that has a motorcyle-style center stand. it s kinda heavy but really rugged. check out the electric bikes e- stores
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 27, 2006
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                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tone" <Tone@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Bill,
                    > Nice adapted retrofit of the motorcycle kickstand. I was
                    > thinking of trying to find a similar part for my own Xtracycle. Too
                    bad
                    > it sounds like it adds 10-20 pounds to the bike though. :-( Would you
                    > say the weight is just a factor involved with the particular kickstand
                    > you used or do you think maybe a person could find a lighter "scooter"
                    > kickstand or something?
                    > Also, nice quick-fix of the bungee cord to replace the
                    > kickstand spring. I have also seen a bungee cord connected from a rear
                    > derailleur to the rear step in order to increase drive-chain tension
                    > since the FreeRadical's chain length is so long.
                    > _TONE_
                    >
                    i have a lashout electric bike that has a motorcyle-style center stand.
                    it's kinda heavy but really rugged. check out the electric bikes e-
                    stores for pictures. i'll try to take some of mine and post if i
                    can......
                  • Ian Hopper
                    The lashout bike seems a bit silly: why would you need to have so much power/ heavy bike when it hauls virtually nothing? Sure, put some panniers on that rack,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 29, 2006
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                      The lashout bike seems a bit silly: why would you need to have so much power/ heavy bike when it hauls virtually nothing? Sure, put some panniers on that rack, but you're not going to get anywhere near the capacity of a Xtracycle... maybe if you were elderly and were in poor shape, this would be an alternative to a car. Of course, it still weighs 1/10th the weight of the lightest production cars.  I dunno..  I'm troubled by the lack of componentry spec'ing on the http://www.electric-bikes.com/lashout.htm site: did they spec the bike with cheap, easily breakable components? Hard to say... Wade714, you have one: you wanna weigh in?

                      Ian Hopper
                    • David Chase
                      ... I think you re being a little hard on people. Suppose someone (choose some or all of the following): - lived in a hilly area - was in really bad shape -
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 29, 2006
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                        On 2006-12-29, at 4:20 AM, Ian Hopper wrote:

                        > The lashout bike seems a bit silly: why would you need to have so
                        > much power/ heavy bike when it hauls virtually nothing? Sure, put
                        > some panniers on that rack, but you're not going to get anywhere
                        > near the capacity of a Xtracycle... maybe if you were elderly and
                        > were in poor shape, this would be an alternative to a car.

                        I think you're being a little hard on people.
                        Suppose someone (choose some or all of the following):

                        - lived in a hilly area

                        - was in really bad shape

                        - wanted to reduce their carbon footprint

                        - had a really long commute

                        - wanted to avoid the expense of a car

                        - lost their driver's license

                        - lived away from paved roads

                        - had permanently diminished cardiovascular capacity

                        - had no idea how much their condition would improve with steady
                        exercise

                        - just weren't quite aware of all the alternatives, and had money to
                        spend

                        These last two are a big deal. I've got several colleagues (one with
                        a BMI I can only dream of) who don't see how they could possibly ride
                        some of the hills that I ride (in particular, one of them lives near
                        the top of one of those hills), and they just don't believe me when I
                        say that you get a mountain bike with low gears, start up the hill,
                        and keep downshifting till comfortable (and with the gears on today's
                        mtn bikes, you WILL be comfortable), and do it regularly, and
                        suddenly you'll find yourself not even using the lowest chainring.

                        You also need to consider that, at age 46, I have most likely lived
                        only about half my life (my ancestors had a habit of living into
                        their 90s), and I am already clearly less fit and indestructible than
                        I was in my teens and twenties.

                        > I'm troubled by the lack of componentry spec'ing on the http://
                        > www.electric-bikes.com/lashout.htm site: did they spec the bike
                        > with cheap, easily breakable components? Hard to say... Wade714,
                        > you have one: you wanna weigh in?

                        I was mystified by the full suspension. My bike's got a front shock,
                        and there's even a couple of roads here that make it clear what a
                        suspension is good for (motoring down a potholed road at 20mph and
                        watching the front fork fade into a blur -- my hands would be trashed
                        without it) but I don't commute on those roads because I assume that
                        it would do bad things to my cargo (which often includes a laptop,
                        and sometimes includes a plastic toolbox that already shows the signs
                        of internal battering). I wonder whether the motor (mounted off to
                        the side like it is) will be rattled off or not?

                        The cost of the electricals need not be that high. If you consider
                        that battery-powered drills/saws/etc are all over the place, and also
                        figure that a 600W motor is not that big a deal (a "10-amp" wall-
                        powered saw is 1100 watts), I think you can see that most of the cost
                        is in the risk of investing in the design and inventory, and in being
                        able to cover your mistakes (that is, the price of the first one pays
                        for 50% of its replacement as well, under the assumption that
                        customers who break them, will get replacements for free. There's no
                        way around that, it's hard to predict how people will actually (ab)
                        use a product, and anyone who is able to get it right from first
                        principles deserves ample compensation for their skill.)

                        David
                      • Ian Hopper
                        David, I realize that I came off a bit harsh on the Lashout. I have nothing at all against electric bicycles, I own one (well sort of... it s more of a hybrid,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 30, 2006
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                          David, I realize that I came off a bit harsh on the Lashout. I have
                          nothing at all against electric bicycles, I own one (well sort of...
                          it's more of a hybrid, it's the Stokemonkey from Cleverchimp.com). I
                          object to poorly thought out, badly designed electric bikes that get
                          rushed to market without thorough and complete testing and cheap non
                          durable componentry spec'ing. I think it hurts the future of electric
                          bikes when garbage gets put into the market. That being said, all the
                          reasons you said are totally valid reasons for wanting some
                          electrical assistance, and several of them apply to me (bad knee
                          genetics, live at the top of a 18-22 degree hill, desire to carry
                          heavy loads long distances quickly, desire to travel at high bicycle
                          speeds carrying big loads without arriving all sweaty and beat-up,
                          hate driving a car, have a long commute, have a child)

                          Looking at the pictures of the Lashout, I wasn't immediately struck
                          by the quality and durability of the system... it looks like another
                          passive system where you can sit there and not pedal, which seems to
                          me to defeat the purpose of mounting the system on a bicycle. It's
                          basically a moped unless you have to pedal to use the power... but
                          admittedly, I'm biased towards the stokemonkey style of propulsion.
                          The lack of specs is still disturbing to me, as is the apparent lack
                          of testing, data, info, etc.
                        • Cara Lin Bridgman
                          ... Not to mention the propaganda: The story of the Electric bicycle industry is one of continuous refinement and evolution. Many market entries have come and
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 30, 2006
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                            Ian Hopper wrote:
                            > The lack of specs is still disturbing to me, as is the apparent lack
                            > of testing, data, info, etc.

                            Not to mention the propaganda:
                            "The story of the Electric bicycle industry is one of continuous
                            refinement and evolution. Many market entries have come and gone, each
                            bequeathing a legacy of innovation and mistakes. Enter the new LashOut.
                            After rigorous and meticulous R + D, LashOut has enhanced the strengths
                            and improved upon the weaknesses. The result: One rock solid product
                            that will tickle your world."

                            Lots of gas without substance there...

                            CL
                          • karpaydiem
                            ... Hey TONE, Sorry it took a while for me to get back to this thread. While my stand is much heavier than that found on most bikes, it s NOT 10-20 lbs. May
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 16, 2007
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                              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tone" <Tone@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Bill,
                              > Nice adapted retrofit of the motorcycle kickstand. I was
                              > thinking of trying to find a similar part for my own Xtracycle. Too bad
                              > it sounds like it adds 10-20 pounds to the bike though. :-( Would you
                              > say the weight is just a factor involved with the particular kickstand
                              > you used or do you think maybe a person could find a lighter "scooter"
                              > kickstand or something?
                              > Also, nice quick-fix of the bungee cord to replace the
                              > kickstand spring. I have also seen a bungee cord connected from a rear
                              > derailleur to the rear step in order to increase drive-chain tension
                              > since the FreeRadical's chain length is so long.
                              > _TONE_
                              >

                              Hey TONE, Sorry it took a while for me to get back to this thread.

                              While my stand is much heavier than that found on most bikes, it's NOT
                              10-20 lbs. May saying it weighs as much as a good road bike was just
                              my feeble attempt at humor through exaggeration. Probably more like 3,
                              just guessing.

                              I'm sure if you can locate a motorcycle junk yard in your area, you'll
                              be likely to find something that will work for you, although you may
                              have to do some modifications, like bending mounting angles to suit.
                              The one I found had a 5 gal plastic bucket full of old stands... a
                              real treasure trove!

                              - Bill
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