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Re: [rootsradicals] KickBack: first thoughts

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  • Carl Ray
    Phil, I appreciate your review. I wish i had the $ for it right now. But in your Opt. 2 fix see my blogspot on flexi-ties, if the rattles drive you crazy these
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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      Phil,

      I appreciate your review. I wish i had the $ for it right now. But in your Opt. 2 fix see my blogspot on flexi-ties, if the rattles drive you crazy these foam puppies will take care of that for sure but it will be an added step in releasing the stand.

      http://www.xtracycle.blogspot.com  (copy/paste) in Browser.

      Peace,

      Carl 

      On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Phil GE <b4kids@...> wrote:

      I've had the new KickBack on my X for a few days. Here are a few
      thoughts about it.

      Pros

      1) It was easy to install

      2) It holds loads solidly. I just got back from the grocery store
      loaded with 80 to a 100 lbs of grocries (long story). No problems
      loading or unloading with the KickBack whatsoever. This would've been
      much more difficult with the Greenfield (?) kickstand.

      3) It looks sleek and blends in well.

      Cons

      1) feet and axle ends are plastic plugs with screw-on plastic knobs.
      The knobs were not really securable by hand - they rattled loose
      quickly. I used a channel lock wrench to lightly grasp them and torque
      them down snugly.

      2) Spring tension is fine, though the stand "bounces" up and down a
      bit over significant bumps in the road.

      Suggested fixes to the Cons

      1) a very thin, flat rubber washer would help secure the feet/ends in
      place without fear of over-torquing.

      2) Would be neat if there was a "latch" of sorts that could be added
      to the chainstay and "catch" the left side leg just enough to keep the
      stand from "bouncing." I don't think spring tension alone will do the
      trick. The latch/catch could be an inverted plastic U shaped fitting
      with low profile nubs on the inside of the legs of the U (internal
      serifs??). A bolt could pass through the legs of the U and, with a
      bushing to protect against scratches, secure the U in place.

      These are simply brainstorms and would need much more refining - I
      have no illusions about convenient quick-fixes to #2.

      Conclusion

      It's worth it. I can feel pretty confident that my X won't fall over
      as I load and unload as long as I'm not being very foolish. I'd
      strongly recommend this to anyone with an X or a Big Dummy.

      -Phil




      --
      Carl

      http://xtracycle.blogspot.com

      "Our planes and automobiles have made it possible for us to go anywhere and see nothing, but our simpler, slower means of conveyance, our feet and our bicycles and wind-powered boats, still connect us to this earth that is not ours to master, but to treasure."

      Kent Peterson
      http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/



    • Rick Pickett
      Great feedback, Phil. First, we ll be releasing a Wiki page complete with all current, and future, Xtracycle products and bicycles. We ll post that URL once
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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        Great feedback, Phil.

        First, we'll be releasing a Wiki page complete with all current, and future, Xtracycle products and bicycles.  We'll post that URL once we get it fleshed out and hopefully these exact pro/cons/suggestion information can start to be stored there for future, and current, users to glean information from.

        Regarding "le KickBack":

        1) It was easy to install

        Glad to hear! 

        2) It holds loads solidly. I just got back from the grocery store 
        loaded with 80 to a 100 lbs of grocries (long story). No problems 
        loading or unloading with the KickBack whatsoever. This would've been 
        much more difficult with the Greenfield (?) kickstand.

        I've love the KickBack's usefulness and ease of engagement.  Also used it to stand on my BD to snap some photos of a derelict building sign (7UP, hand-painted).  I'd recommend someone still stabilizing the bike for you, but it got the job done.  It's also great to use it on BART instead of holding the bike up, but be warned, if you don't have enough leg angle when engaged and the front wheel is facing the back of the train, acceleration could cause the bike to lurch forward, disengaging the stand.  So, stay by your bike on the BART.

        3) It looks sleek and blends in well.

        I like the Ride/Relax stickers the most, IMHO.

        Cons

        1) feet and axle ends are plastic plugs with screw-on plastic knobs. 
        The knobs were not really securable by hand - they rattled loose 
        quickly. I used a channel lock wrench to lightly grasp them and torque 
        them down snugly.

        Good call on the channel lock.  I put some threadlock on mine (and the ones on the axle too) and that has held them in place.  We're going to be putting some solid feet in the next design round to address this issue.

        2) Spring tension is fine, though the stand "bounces" up and down a 
        bit over significant bumps in the road.

        We suggest moving the Cateye clamp attachment back further on the stay.  If that doesn't hold the stand with more tension, then add one knot at a time to the static cord.  If you're still experiencing bounce, then definitely look into a clamp like you mentioned.  We added the extra Allen bolt on the drive-side of the Chromoly body for a future release/engagement lever, that might be useful somehow.  I was personally thinking about some form of magnet that bolts through the kickstand plate and one that plugs into the stopper on the body.  If anyone produces one of these before I do, please share some photos.

        It's worth it. I can feel pretty confident that my X won't fall over 
        as I load and unload as long as I'm not being very foolish. I'd 
        strongly recommend this to anyone with an X or a Big Dummy.

        For the price and assurance that it'll work with your Xtracycle, I second the conclusion, but then again, I'm biased. :)

        Cheers,

        Rick


























        3) It looks sleek and blends in well.

        Cons

        1) feet and axle ends are plastic plugs with screw-on plastic knobs. 
        The knobs were not really securable by hand - they rattled loose 
        quickly. I used a channel lock wrench to lightly grasp them and torque 
        them down snugly.

        2) Spring tension is fine, though the stand "bounces" up and down a 
        bit over significant bumps in the road.

        Suggested fixes to the Cons

        1) a very thin, flat rubber washer would help secure the feet/ends in 
        place without fear of over-torquing.

        2) Would be neat if there was a "latch" of sorts that could be added 
        to the chainstay and "catch" the left side leg just enough to keep the 
        stand from "bouncing." I don't think spring tension alone will do the 
        trick. The latch/catch could be an inverted plastic U shaped fitting 
        with low profile nubs on the inside of the legs of the U (internal 
        serifs??). A bolt could pass through the legs of the U and, with a 
        bushing to protect against scratches, secure the U in place.

        These are simply brainstorms and would need much more refining - I 
        have no illusions about convenient quick-fixes to #2.

        Conclusion

        It's worth it. I can feel pretty confident that my X won't fall over 
        as I load and unload as long as I'm not being very foolish. I'd 
        strongly recommend this to anyone with an X or a Big Dummy.

        -Phil




        -- 
        Carl

        http://xtracycle. blogspot. com 

        "Our planes and automobiles have made it possible for us to go anywhere and see nothing, but our simpler, slower means of conveyance, our feet and our bicycles and wind-powered boats, still connect us to this earth that is not ours to master, but to treasure."

        Kent Peterson
        http://kentsbike. blogspot. com/





      • Phil Good-Elliott
        Thanks, Rick. I m glad to hear folks are already working on a solid plug for the KickBack feet and axles. I like the idea of a magnet, though I m not sure what
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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          Thanks, Rick.

          I'm glad to hear folks are already working on a solid plug for the
          KickBack feet and axles. I like the idea of a magnet, though I'm not
          sure what magnet will withstand the "snap" of the stand being pulled
          up. Upon further exam, I don't think my clip idea is practical,
          either. Some kind of interface at the kickstand plate and KickBack
          "stop" tube (name?) may be most helpful. The simpler the mechanism,
          the better.

          To clarify, the bounce is still noticeable on my X with the spring
          cord knotted on both ends and the Cateye clamp secured way back on the
          chainstay. I'm sure someone will find a simple way solution soon.

          -Phil

          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Rick Pickett <rick.pickett@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Great feedback, Phil.
          >
          > First, we'll be releasing a Wiki page complete with all current, and
          > future, Xtracycle products and bicycles. We'll post that URL once we
          > get it fleshed out and hopefully these exact pro/cons/suggestion
          > information can start to be stored there for future, and current,
          > users to glean information from.
          >
          > Regarding "le KickBack":
          >
          > > 1) It was easy to install
          >
          >
          > Glad to hear!
          >
          > > 2) It holds loads solidly. I just got back from the grocery store
          > > loaded with 80 to a 100 lbs of grocries (long story). No problems
          > > loading or unloading with the KickBack whatsoever. This would've been
          > > much more difficult with the Greenfield (?) kickstand.
          >
          > I've love the KickBack's usefulness and ease of engagement. Also used
          > it to stand on my BD to snap some photos of a derelict building sign
          > (7UP, hand-painted). I'd recommend someone still stabilizing the bike
          > for you, but it got the job done. It's also great to use it on BART
          > instead of holding the bike up, but be warned, if you don't have
          > enough leg angle when engaged and the front wheel is facing the back
          > of the train, acceleration could cause the bike to lurch forward,
          > disengaging the stand. So, stay by your bike on the BART.
          >
          > > 3) It looks sleek and blends in well.
          >
          > I like the Ride/Relax stickers the most, IMHO.
          >
          > > Cons
          > >
          > > 1) feet and axle ends are plastic plugs with screw-on plastic knobs.
          > > The knobs were not really securable by hand - they rattled loose
          > > quickly. I used a channel lock wrench to lightly grasp them and torque
          > > them down snugly.
          >
          > Good call on the channel lock. I put some threadlock on mine (and the
          > ones on the axle too) and that has held them in place. We're going to
          > be putting some solid feet in the next design round to address this
          > issue.
          >
          > > 2) Spring tension is fine, though the stand "bounces" up and down a
          > > bit over significant bumps in the road.
          >
          > We suggest moving the Cateye clamp attachment back further on the
          > stay. If that doesn't hold the stand with more tension, then add one
          > knot at a time to the static cord. If you're still experiencing
          > bounce, then definitely look into a clamp like you mentioned. We
          > added the extra Allen bolt on the drive-side of the Chromoly body for
          > a future release/engagement lever, that might be useful somehow. I
          > was personally thinking about some form of magnet that bolts through
          > the kickstand plate and one that plugs into the stopper on the body.
          > If anyone produces one of these before I do, please share some photos.
          >
          > > It's worth it. I can feel pretty confident that my X won't fall over
          > > as I load and unload as long as I'm not being very foolish. I'd
          > > strongly recommend this to anyone with an X or a Big Dummy.
          >
          > For the price and assurance that it'll work with your Xtracycle, I
          > second the conclusion, but then again, I'm biased. :)
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Rick
        • Vik
          I d like to get a KIckBack - I can see the functionality would be beneficial, but my passengers really like the Footsies for a secure place to put their feet.
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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            I'd like to get a KIckBack - I can see the functionality would be beneficial, but my passengers really like the Footsies for a secure place to put their feet.  I don't want to have to choose, but I understand they are not compatible.  Any chance there will be some mods for the Footsies so they can be used?  

            I also understand installing/removing Wideloaders can be PITA.  To get my Big Dummy into my apartment I need to remove the Wideloaders so taking them on and off regularly is normal for me. Can someone with a KickBack and Wideloaders comment on the ease of use together.

            safe riding,

            Vik
            www.vikram-banerjee.com
            www.thelazyrando.com
            www.viks-tikit.com
            www.viks-bigdummy.com



            On 1-Nov-08, at 1:12 PM, Phil GE wrote:

            I've had the new KickBack on my X for a few days. Here are a few 
            thoughts about it.

            Pros

            1) It was easy to install

            2) It holds loads solidly. I just got back from the grocery store 
            loaded with 80 to a 100 lbs of grocries (long story). No problems 
            loading or unloading with the KickBack whatsoever. This would've been 
            much more difficult with the Greenfield (?) kickstand.

            3) It looks sleek and blends in well.

            Cons

            1) feet and axle ends are plastic plugs with screw-on plastic knobs. 
            The knobs were not really securable by hand - they rattled loose 
            quickly. I used a channel lock wrench to lightly grasp them and torque 
            them down snugly.

            2) Spring tension is fine, though the stand "bounces" up and down a 
            bit over significant bumps in the road.

            Suggested fixes to the Cons

            1) a very thin, flat rubber washer would help secure the feet/ends in 
            place without fear of over-torquing.

            2) Would be neat if there was a "latch" of sorts that could be added 
            to the chainstay and "catch" the left side leg just enough to keep the 
            stand from "bouncing." I don't think spring tension alone will do the 
            trick. The latch/catch could be an inverted plastic U shaped fitting 
            with low profile nubs on the inside of the legs of the U (internal 
            serifs??). A bolt could pass through the legs of the U and, with a 
            bushing to protect against scratches, secure the U in place.

            These are simply brainstorms and would need much more refining - I 
            have no illusions about convenient quick-fixes to #2.

            Conclusion

            It's worth it. I can feel pretty confident that my X won't fall over 
            as I load and unload as long as I'm not being very foolish. I'd 
            strongly recommend this to anyone with an X or a Big Dummy.

            -Phil


          • Phil Good-Elliott
            Vik, The KickBack and Footsies are incompatible, but the KickBack extends out from the FreeRadical and has axles that extend a bit further. See the photo at
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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              Vik,

              The KickBack and Footsies are incompatible, but the KickBack extends
              out from the FreeRadical and has axles that extend a bit further. See
              the photo at

              http://commutebybike.com/2008/09/30/interbike-exciting-new-xtracycle-options/

              This won't give you the "footprint" of footsies, but should be a place
              for "purchase" for any rider. My son rides the back of the X
              frequently and has had no complaints. I'll ask him today for an opinion.

              Swapping out Wideloaders and the KickBack axles could be interesting
              if done frequently. Rick might have more input there for you. I think
              it would be manageable.

              -Phil

              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Vik <threeohm@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'd like to get a KIckBack - I can see the functionality would be
              > beneficial, but my passengers really like the Footsies for a secure
              > place to put their feet. I don't want to have to choose, but I
              > understand they are not compatible. Any chance there will be some
              > mods for the Footsies so they can be used?
              >
              > I also understand installing/removing Wideloaders can be PITA. To
              > get my Big Dummy into my apartment I need to remove the Wideloaders
              > so taking them on and off regularly is normal for me. Can someone
              > with a KickBack and Wideloaders comment on the ease of use together.
              >
              > safe riding,
              >
              > Vik
              > vikbanerjee@...
              > www.vikram-banerjee.com
              > www.thelazyrando.com
              > www.viks-tikit.com
              > www.viks-bigdummy.com
              >
              >
            • conion1
              I agree with all your conclusions. I guess they give your and extra set of feet for a reason. The Loctite is a great idea alone with a some channel lock
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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                I agree with all your conclusions.

                I guess they give your and extra set of feet for a reason. The
                Loctite is a great idea alone with a some channel lock action. Maybe
                a magnetic cabinet latch could be integrated into the stop peg.

                I really like the stability it gives during all phases of my
                interaction with the bike.
                -2 kids loading on the bike without me holding it.
                -fixing front flat without placing the bike in a stand or on it's side.
                -general loading.

                I am real happy with this addition to the Xtracycle family.
              • Rick Pickett
                Hey Vik and Everybody, Regarding Footsies & KickBack. we ve thought about getting Footsies to work with the KickBack, but the axle cuff requires Footsies to be
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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                  Hey Vik and Everybody,

                  Regarding Footsies & KickBack. we've thought about getting Footsies to
                  work with the KickBack, but the axle cuff requires Footsies to be
                  raised off their insertion tube a few millimeters to clear it. Then
                  you run into the issue of having no support under the plank (big toe
                  region) if you run the footsies w/o your KickBack. Personally, I
                  don't see anyone regularly taking the KickBack off, so that might be a
                  mute point anyhow. Either way, modify at your own risk/loss of
                  warranty, yada yada yada.

                  Regarding WideLoaders, we were planning on releasing a video of
                  WideLoader installation, but decided that your questions need a visual
                  explanation in addition to the text below. Watch the video online
                  here: http://vimeo.com/2146082 . We're enjoying our first rains here
                  in the Bay, hopefully your area is getting the weather it needs too.

                  The first thing of note, if you try swapping out the axles (the black
                  posts with the spring button that go into the FreeRad/Big Dummy) with
                  WideLoader, you'll have a MUCH easier time with KickBack in the "ride/
                  up" position. Either lean your bike against a stable object or have a
                  friend hold it.

                  Installing WideLoaders:

                  1) Get KickBack into ride/up position and stabilize bicycle against a
                  wall, or stable object. Make sure your XC is unloaded, you can do it
                  loaded, but might make things more difficult.

                  2) With KickBack up, depress the axle spring button and remove the
                  axle. Only do one side at a time.

                  3) Insert and depress the spring button on the WideLoader, inserting
                  the forward post first into the axle bushing just inside the front
                  bridge tube (depends on whether you're rockin' a FreeRad or a Big
                  Dummy since the BD has a flush tube while the FreeRad has an angled
                  tube face and will require a second depression of the spring button to
                  enter the front bridge). You may need to maneuver the axle bushing to
                  line up with the front bridge hole, this is why we suggest doing one
                  side at a time since KickBack is being held up by the other side.

                  4) Insert the rear tube of the WideLoader into the rear bridge, it may
                  pop out if the front tube is not far enough in.

                  5) Now you should be able to push in the middle and get both spring
                  buttons to pop through their holes. Again, if you're using KickBack
                  on a FreeRad, you will need to depress the spring button a second time
                  to get it to insert in the front bridge. If you're experiencing a
                  tough time, the tubes may be binding against the frame, to rectify, be
                  sure you're inserting the tubes as evenly as possible. Attach the
                  Velcro straps to your FreeRad/BD frame.

                  6) If you need a WideLoader on the other side, just repeat steps 1—5.

                  7) Store your axles in a safe location, we like to use our zippered
                  pouch in our FreeLoaders since they're easily accessible when you want
                  to remove your WideLoaders.

                  Removing WideLoaders:

                  1) Remove cargo on Xtracycle. Un-Velcro the two straps on the
                  WideLoader sling (not doing this can lead to massive frustration!).

                  2) Put KickBack into ride/up position and stabilize against wall or
                  stable object.

                  3) Working one side at a time, depress spring button on front bridge
                  and pull out about 1". Depress rear spring button and pull out till
                  clear of rear bridge. Sometimes the front may want to slide back in
                  and snap into place. If this happens, deep breath and be sure to pull
                  it out a bit further the next time.

                  4) Once rear is clear of tube, let the rear of the WideLoader rotate
                  down and slide out the front tube.

                  5) Insert KickBack axle, spring button end first, with white marking
                  line lined up with spring button hole on front bridge. Ensure spring
                  button is fully engaged through hole.

                  6) Repeat steps 1—5 for other side if needed.

                  Cheers,
                  Rick & Xtracycle
                • fblack947
                  I just finished building up my Xtracycle on my old Schwinn Sierra (circa 1989). I really wish there were footsies that worked with the KickBack, as the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 19, 2008
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                    I just finished building up my Xtracycle on my old Schwinn Sierra
                    (circa 1989).

                    I really wish there were footsies that worked with the KickBack, as
                    the KickBack is one of the best things about my setup!

                    Couple of comments:
                    - The black plastic clamps at the ends of the bungie cord don't
                    work very well. I've already had one come off, and they don't go back
                    on. (Tying another overhand knot fixes it, but you loose the easy
                    handling that the black plastic piece provides).

                    - The installation of wideloaders with the kickback isn't too bad.
                    The previously provided video helps a lot.

                    - The kickback axle nubs are no substitute for footsies.
                  • Rick Pickett
                    ... Sorry about the issue you re having, fblack. The snap teeth on those tabs are fairly small, but I was able to undo mine, trim my cord (wanted my spring
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 19, 2008
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                      - The black plastic clamps at the ends of the bungie cord don't
                      work very well. I've already had one come off, and they don't go back
                      on. (Tying another overhand knot fixes it, but you loose the easy
                      handling that the black plastic piece provides).

                      Sorry about the issue you're having, fblack.  The snap teeth on those tabs are fairly small, but I was able to undo mine, trim my cord (wanted my spring clamp in a different position) and replace the tab.  Good call on the knot.

                      - The installation of wideloaders with the kickback isn't too bad.
                      The previously provided video helps a lot.

                      Sweet, glad to hear.

                      - The kickback axle nubs are no substitute for footsies.

                      Hope you're trying to use the Axle Cuff, not the actual Axle for a footsie.  The gray part is larger, but yes, nothing will compare to the large platform of your Footsies.

                      Cheers,
                      Rick
                    • Vik
                      Rick, Is there a Footsie MK2 in the works or some easy on/off Footsie solution coming? I d like to get a KickBack, but I m happy I have to choose between the
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 19, 2008
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                        Rick,

                         

                        Is there a Footsie MK2 in the works or some easy on/off Footsie solution coming?  I’d like to get a KickBack, but I’m happy I have to choose between the Kickback and Footsies.  I don’t really want to spend $400 on an after market stand for the Big Dummy either, but it seems weird that a guy [Val Kleitz] can deign a centrestand that works on the BD and Free Rad without affecting the use of any of the Xtracycle accessories yet the centrestand from Xtracycle has compatibility issues with other accessories. 

                         

                        I guess I just don’t understand the thinking that went into the Kickback design.

                         

                        Safe riding,

                         

                        Vik

                        vikbanerjee@...

                        www.vik-approved.com

                        www.thelazyrando.com

                         


                        From: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com [mailto: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Pickett
                        Sent: November 19, 2008 10:36 AM
                        To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [rootsradicals] Re: KickBack: first thoughts

                         

                        - The black plastic clamps at the ends of the bungie cord don't
                        work very well. I've already had one come off, and they don't go back
                        on. (Tying another overhand knot fixes it, but you loose the easy
                        handling that the black plastic piece provides).

                         

                        Sorry about the issue you're having, fblack.  The snap teeth on those tabs are fairly small, but I was able to undo mine, trim my cord (wanted my spring clamp in a different position) and replace the tab.  Good call on the knot.

                         

                        - The installation of wideloaders with the kickback isn't too bad.
                        The previously provided video helps a lot.

                         

                        Sweet, glad to hear.

                         

                        - The kickback axle nubs are no substitute for footsies.

                         

                        Hope you're trying to use the Axle Cuff, not the actual Axle for a footsie.  The gray part is larger, but yes, nothing will compare to the large platform of your Footsies.

                         

                        Cheers,

                        Rick

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