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Re: Rohloff

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  • Jake Wilson
    ... standard ... 4, ... cables ... the ... ~~~I haven t read all the replies on this discussion but I did see where Vik mentioned hydraulic disc systems
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > On 2008-09-01, at 11:38 AM, Mark Garvey wrote:
      > > The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use
      standard
      > > bike brake cables. hydraulics have hoses and special oil.
      >
      > Is it indeed special oil? I would normally expect it to be DOT 3,
      4,
      > or 5.
      >
      > The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that
      cables
      > can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them --

      > this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his
      > derailer. It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying
      the
      > first time it happened.
      >
      > David
      >







      ~~~I haven't read all the replies on this discussion but I did see
      where Vik mentioned hydraulic disc systems overheating, then David
      here mentions cables freezing. If it's not one thing it's another=:-
      ) but just goes to show you that extremes in temperature can
      negatively impact both


      I've never used hydraulic brakes on a bicycle. I have several bikes
      (one bike and one trike actually) with cable disc brakes. I've never
      felt the need for more braking power when using the cable disc and
      that's supposed to be one of the advantages of the fluid disc brake
      over the cable (more braking power). heck, as far as that goes, I've
      endoed V (rim) brake MTB's hastily ap[plying the front V brake in the
      past but the original poster wants opinions on a good brake system
      for a cargo bike


      I still like cable disc brakes and would use them myself for a BD
      build, before fitting hyd disc brakes but that's me, and I live in a
      relatively flat area and one that is also not prone to freezing
      weather but if frozen cables are a concern for him, what better
      reason is there to do preventive winter maint, and all cable bikes
      need a good water dispersal lube before winter strikes. I'm sure few
      bicyclists do that, including the ones that ride year round in the
      frozen stuff. Reminds me of my poor winter maint when I drove cages
      in the winter in and around Detroit pre-1985 (before I moved south
      permanently). i do remember frozen door locks and fuel line freeze
      up on occasion. okay, we were talking about bicycles=:-)...sorry, I
      digress


      My vote is for cable actuated disc brakes, Avid BB7 in particular









      Jake
      Reddick Fla.
    • MH
      ... I have the standard 14 gauge stainless steel spokes so I really don t know. I like 559mm or 26 tires and rims. As for rims the best I can offers is to
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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        >> Any recommendation for rim and spokes and for
        >> front wheel? I will have a professional build it.
        >>
        >> David

        I have the standard 14 gauge stainless steel spokes
        so I really don't know. I like 559mm or 26" tires
        and rims. As for rims the best I can offers is to
        get double wall rims especially out back. I haven't
        had mine go out of true but I quickly check spoke
        tension on occasion to see if anythings lose or broken.
        -Mark H.
      • phaedrus
        ... This is my build: Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 CC DB OEM Tandem (I d recommend going with the external shift linkage, I went with the version that uses skewers
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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          > I have decided to go with the Rohloff hub. Any recommendation for rim and
          > spokes and for front wheel? I will have a professional build it.
          >
          > Also, I am looking for break recommendations. I definitely want disks. Hydro
          > or cable? Brands and models?

          This is my build:

          Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 CC DB OEM Tandem (I'd recommend going with the
          external shift linkage, I went with the version that uses skewers so I
          could protect it with a pitlock)

          Schmidt SON front hub

          Wheelsmith 2.0mm straight gauge spokes

          Velocity Cliffhanger Rims

          Schwalbe Big Apple 26x2.15" tires

          Avid BB7 mechanical disk brakes.

          So far, it has been bomb proof.

          I've been doored once, and last weekend, I nailed a curb that my
          heat-exhuastion-crazed mind thought had a curb cut in it and the bike
          has survived both experiences. I've hauled heavy loads on and off
          road and gone down more than one set of stairs and have not yet had an
          equipment failure.

          Of course, YMMV

          Good luck and enjoy the bike!

          - phædrus
        • Tim Lupfer
          Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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            Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano hydraulic brakes tend to flake out around minus five or minus ten degrees. Having a spare hose on hand is always a good idea, but I think people expect them to fail more often than they actually do.

            On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

            yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.  

          • Mark Garvey
            Actually, I don t EXPECT them to fail at all......I expect ANY mechanical apparatus that I don t know how to fix to fail an any time that it becomes critical
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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              Actually, I don't EXPECT them to fail at all......I expect ANY mechanical apparatus that I don't know how to fix to fail an any time that it becomes critical to my survival.  It may be a law of nature....If you have an irreplacable part for your bicycle or car, or whatever, the part will FAIL catastrophically somewhere West of Outer Podunk Wyo on a Friday of a 3 day weekend, leaving you stranded!  I don't really care WHAT it is!  I don't use 20 inch wheels and tires on my trailer and 26 inch wheels and tires on my bike because they are "the best" I use them because EVERY DAMNED WAL MART IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE STOCKS THEM!   and no mater what you think of them, THE LONGEST you will have to wait to purchase a wheel, tire or tube that will WORK on your bike is about 4 or 5 hours because some of them are not open 24 hours a day!

              Same goes for brake and shift cables.  If you have cable brakes, there are cables at Wal Mart, Ace, True Value, JC Penny, Sears and a host of other places, including bike shops.

              This doesn't mean I will be a shopper at K mart or Wal Mart anytime soon, but that because the pieces are AVAILABLE, they won't break!  that is why I run a 7 speed cogset too.  You can get a replacement at Wal Mart, K mart  Etc.  A 9 speed MUST be used with a special chain, only available at GREAT expense from a bicycle shop.  Usually one that is only open on alternate Thursdays on Months with an S in them.  and you just missed the guy.  He is going on vacation for three weeks!  Besides the parts are not in stock and have to be ordered from Japan by bicycle courrier!

              This is why I use standard size parts and such,  they are AVAILABLE, which keeps the P*nct*re fairy and his friend the Cable Gnome from attacking my bike.  A part on a bicycle will break in inverse proportion to the availability of a replacement part.

              This was borne out when I owned a BSA motorcycle.  I found it espedient to order TWO of any part that broke because if I bought ONE, the damned thing would be in use for 72 hours and would FAIL again, requiring 6 hours of wrenching, two hours of Cursing and three weeks of waiting for the part to be shipped in brine via Tea Clipper from Jolly Olde to my home in the Colonies!  wherer the replacement would be either the wrong size, the wrong voltage (usually electric parts, Lucas, Prince of Darkness!) or for an entirely different vehicle...Say a Triumph TR 3 automobile rather than a BSA 441 Victor motorcycle.  with a sincere apology and a stiff upper lip the part would be shipped BACK to england, replaced with ANOTHER incorrect part in another 3 weeks.   I spent about 3 weeks total riding my BSA 441 "Victor" in the 2 years that I owned it.

              Arrrrgh!  Always use parts you can find at any gas station, hardware store, plumbing supply or Head shop.  NEVER ever have anything that needs special parts only available at great expense from some remote part of the world!

              mark

              On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Tim Lupfer <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
              Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano hydraulic brakes tend to flake out around minus five or minus ten degrees. Having a spare hose on hand is always a good idea, but I think people expect them to fail more often than they actually do.


              On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

              yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.  




              --
              Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring. –Desmond Tutu
            • Tim Lupfer
              Hey Mark, I didn t mean to get you all worked up :) mostly I just wanted to put in a good word for hydraulic brakes. they work well, especially with long bikes
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                Hey Mark,
                I didn't mean to get you all worked up :) mostly I just wanted to put in a good word for hydraulic brakes. they work well, especially with long bikes with full length housing (i.e. big dummy), and aren't nearly as difficult to work on as people often seem to think they are. there aren't that many spare parts to have on hand and once installed many setups run trouble free for years with only the infrequent task of changing pads. sure, maybe you can't stop at walmart for parts, but you can keep a stash in your freeloader or at your work bench.
                -tim

                On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 7:27 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                Actually, I don't EXPECT them to fail at all......I expect ANY mechanical apparatus that I don't know how to fix to fail an any time that it becomes critical to my survival.  It may be a law of nature....If you have an irreplacable part for your bicycle or car, or whatever, the part will FAIL catastrophically somewhere West of Outer Podunk Wyo on a Friday of a 3 day weekend, leaving you stranded!  I don't really care WHAT it is!  I don't use 20 inch wheels and tires on my trailer and 26 inch wheels and tires on my bike because they are "the best" I use them because EVERY DAMNED WAL MART IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE STOCKS THEM!   and no mater what you think of them, THE LONGEST you will have to wait to purchase a wheel, tire or tube that will WORK on your bike is about 4 or 5 hours because some of them are not open 24 hours a day!

                Same goes for brake and shift cables.  If you have cable brakes, there are cables at Wal Mart, Ace, True Value, JC Penny, Sears and a host of other places, including bike shops.

                This doesn't mean I will be a shopper at K mart or Wal Mart anytime soon, but that because the pieces are AVAILABLE, they won't break!  that is why I run a 7 speed cogset too.  You can get a replacement at Wal Mart, K mart  Etc.  A 9 speed MUST be used with a special chain, only available at GREAT expense from a bicycle shop.  Usually one that is only open on alternate Thursdays on Months with an S in them.  and you just missed the guy.  He is going on vacation for three weeks!  Besides the parts are not in stock and have to be ordered from Japan by bicycle courrier!

                This is why I use standard size parts and such,  they are AVAILABLE, which keeps the P*nct*re fairy and his friend the Cable Gnome from attacking my bike.  A part on a bicycle will break in inverse proportion to the availability of a replacement part.

                This was borne out when I owned a BSA motorcycle.  I found it espedient to order TWO of any part that broke because if I bought ONE, the damned thing would be in use for 72 hours and would FAIL again, requiring 6 hours of wrenching, two hours of Cursing and three weeks of waiting for the part to be shipped in brine via Tea Clipper from Jolly Olde to my home in the Colonies!  wherer the replacement would be either the wrong size, the wrong voltage (usually electric parts, Lucas, Prince of Darkness!) or for an entirely different vehicle...Say a Triumph TR 3 automobile rather than a BSA 441 Victor motorcycle.  with a sincere apology and a stiff upper lip the part would be shipped BACK to england, replaced with ANOTHER incorrect part in another 3 weeks.   I spent about 3 weeks total riding my BSA 441 "Victor" in the 2 years that I owned it.

                Arrrrgh!  Always use parts you can find at any gas station, hardware store, plumbing supply or Head shop.  NEVER ever have anything that needs special parts only available at great expense from some remote part of the world!

                mark


                On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Tim Lupfer <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano hydraulic brakes tend to flake out around minus five or minus ten degrees. Having a spare hose on hand is always a good idea, but I think people expect them to fail more often than they actually do.


                On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.  




                --
                Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring. –Desmond Tutu

              • Philip Chase
                ... put in a ... bikes ... OK I was willing to ignore this when only one person said it, but now I am hearing an echo of the long-brake-cables-are-a-problem
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Lupfer" <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Mark,
                  > I didn't mean to get you all worked up :) mostly I just wanted to
                  put in a
                  > good word for hydraulic brakes. they work well, especially with long
                  bikes
                  > with full length housing (i.e. big dummy)...

                  OK I was willing to ignore this when only one person said it, but now
                  I am hearing an echo of the long-brake-cables-are-a-problem theory. I
                  respectfully disagree. As of yesterday my BD has logged 1050km while
                  my Avid BB7 cable-actuated brakes have not caused any problems. Five
                  months of riding on my FreeRad bike before the BD were also devoid of
                  all brake cable problems.

                  Brake cables do not require the same precision as indexed shifting. A
                  little cable stretch or excessive bending can alter the path length to
                  the rear derailleur and cause missed or delayed shifting. All the
                  brake cable needs to do is pull far enough to squeeze the stationary
                  part against the rotating part and have low enough friction to release
                  when you do. If a break cable stretches how could ever distinguish
                  that from pad wear?

                  I am now having occasionally indexed shifting on problems on my BD as
                  the LBS predicted, but it took about 800km. The brakes have been great.

                  So will the long tail riders with cable-related rear brake problem
                  please stand and be counted?

                  Philip
                • Mark Garvey
                  ... HAH!! Dude! No, not worked up at all! I hope that didn t sound like I was angry or something. All I was pointing out is that my idea is ultra
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                    On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Tim Lupfer <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                    Hey Mark,
                    I didn't mean to get you all worked up :)


                    HAH!!  Dude!  No, not worked up at all!  I hope that didn't sound like I was angry or something.  All I was pointing out is that my idea is ultra reliability....or maybe that I am a firm believer in Murphy!  Personally, I look at EVERYTHING on this forum as a discussion among friends and not some sort of war or even fight. 

                    hydraulic brakes are really quite good.  I think that they have great potential and reliability is pretty darn good from what I have seen.  Most motorcycles I have owned and all cars have them so they work and are reliable.  But just to bump my point....One day I was backing a semi into a dock when I noticed red fluid on the ground under the truck!  Ack!  a quick look revealed a burst Hydraulic line on the power steering!   I quick drove the few blocks to a repair shop and $100 and an hour later, I was in posession of a rebuilt line!   But a 3/4 inch line is too big for a bike!  HAH!

                    Anyway, I am not disagreeing with your point of reliability.  I was pointing out that I plan for a part to fail and plan accordingly.  This goes with my philosophy of carrying a spare tube AND a patch kit!  That way the P*nct*re fairy does not bother me!  having replaceable parts means that you never have to replace them!

                    mark
                  • David Chase
                    ... I m not 100% sure, but I think that shifting is twitchy enough that you can have temperature-dependent problems, depending on how the cables are routed and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                      On 2008-09-06, at 7:16 AM, Philip Chase wrote:
                      > I am now having occasionally indexed shifting on problems on my BD as
                      > the LBS predicted, but it took about 800km. The brakes have been
                      > great.
                      >
                      I'm not 100% sure, but I think that shifting is twitchy enough that
                      you can have temperature-dependent problems, depending on how the
                      cables are routed and what they (and your bike) are made of. The
                      difference between Al and Steel coefficent of expansion could be as
                      much as .000006/degree-F. For two meter cables, times an 80-degree
                      swing, gets you 2x80x.000006 = almost a millimeter!
                      We don't get an 80-degree swing all in one day, but July-to-January,
                      absolutely. Add to that, that indexed derailleur adjustment seems to
                      require sub-millimeter adjustments.

                      So there might be a "winter cable adjustment" and a "summer cable
                      adjustment".
                      > So will the long tail riders with cable-related rear brake problem
                      > please stand and be counted?
                      >
                      Well, there's ice. The way the FreeRadical disk brake is mounted,
                      there's a sort of natural valley in the cable routing, and that's
                      where the ice ends up. I've seriously considered trying to build a
                      "drain" -- perhaps it would be sufficient simply to cut the housing.

                      David
                    • Mark Garvey
                      ... HEH! you just helped prove my point there Phil! I am a bit of a retro grouch I know. I don t LIKE Index shifting! I have friction shifters! if the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                        On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Philip Chase <philipbchase@...> wrote:


                        I am now having occasionally indexed shifting on problems on my BD as
                        the LBS predicted, but it took about 800km.  The brakes have been great.



                        HEH!  you just helped prove my point there Phil!  I am a bit of a retro grouch I know.  I don't LIKE Index shifting!  I have friction shifters!  if the cable stretches, you never know until it won't shift into the lowest gear.  Ta Daaa!  My point is made, I have made my contribution!   the less complex a piece of equipment is, the less likely to fail!

                        I am trying to make up my mind whether to convert my old Schwinn Typhoon to an X and keep the 2 speed Bendix hub on it!  Talk about nice!  A low gear for starting and up hill, a higher one for flats....downhill is coast!  Very comfy fat tire cruiser ride!

                        mark
                      • Tim Lupfer
                        ... I didn t say claim any problem with cable brakes. In fact, I didn t even mention cable brakes in my post. I said that hydraulic brakes work especially
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                          On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Philip Chase <philipbchase@...> wrote:
                          > OK I was willing to ignore this when only one person said it, but now
                          > I am hearing an echo of the long-brake-cables-are-a-problem theory. I
                          > respectfully disagree. As of yesterday my BD has logged 1050km while
                          > my Avid BB7 cable-actuated brakes have not caused any problems. Five
                          > months of riding on my FreeRad bike before the BD were also devoid of
                          > all brake cable problems.

                          I didn't say claim any "problem" with cable brakes. In fact, I didn't
                          even mention cable brakes in my post. I said that hydraulic brakes
                          work especially well. I have used bb7 brakes on an xtracycle and they
                          stopped fine. However, the lever feel was spongy and they required
                          more frequent adjustments for cable stretch and pad wear. They also
                          needed a lot of winter maintenance to combat the sludge covered
                          Minnesota roads that I ride on.
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