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Rohloff

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  • djdannenberg
    All, I subscribed about a week ago and have been lurking. Interesting stuff. My BD frame will arrive in about 2 days and I am figuring out and accumulating the
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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      All,

      I subscribed about a week ago and have been lurking. Interesting stuff.

      My BD frame will arrive in about 2 days and I am figuring out and accumulating the bits to
      build it into a bike.

      I have decided to go with the Rohloff hub. Any recommendation for rim and spokes and for
      front wheel? I will have a professional build it.

      Also, I am looking for break recommendations. I definitely want disks. Hydro or cable?
      Brands and models?

      Many thanks!

      David

      PS Adk chairs are the coolest looking ever!!
    • Mark Garvey
      David. a friend has THREE bikes with Rohloff hubs and they seem to be perfect for utility riding. Disc brakes...Whatever floats yer boat is the best there.
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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        David.   a friend has THREE bikes with Rohloff hubs and they seem to be perfect for utility riding.  Disc brakes...Whatever floats yer boat is the best there.  If money is not a problem, go with juicers, if you have a bit of a budget deficit, which the Rohloff might cause....go with cables.  The nice thing is that a decent cable disc seems to be just as good in most respects as a juicy brake.  We are not really dealing with massive need for brakes here.  Decent Rim brakes will work very well!  So about anything you can find will work!  However...Get a better quality for ease of adjustment and less finikyness.  I have a shimano Deore front disc on my Xtracycle and it is just dandy! (cable)  I used cable discs on a Trike I had for several years.  NEVER any problem.

        The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use standard bike brake cables.  hydralics have hoses and special oil.  IF (and this is a BIG IF) you ever bust a hose somewhere out in West Overshoe Mt. or somewhere similar (like say...oh...Bertram Iowa) on a saturday afternoon, you will be waiting until Monday at 9 AM to even find a bike shop open, let alone one that has a hydralic line and fluid. 

        I have access to brake and derailleur cables at the local True Value, Ace hardware, and most of the Mart stores, if you need them! 

        for this reason, I suggest that people who have a concern for parts availability at all think along these lines too.  Small Mart usually has 26 inch tires and tubes and 20 inch Tires and tubes, not much else!

        For this reason, I converted my single speed Schwinn (well 2 speed!)  to standard  26 inch rims.  It works fine and I can find replacement tires with no difficulty!

        But if you want exotic wheels, go for it!  Just be aware of the possibility and plan accordingly!

        Bee Prepared!

        mark

        On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 8:03 AM, djdannenberg <suedave@...> wrote:
        All,

        I subscribed about a week ago and have been lurking. Interesting stuff.

        My BD frame will arrive in about 2 days and I am figuring out and accumulating the bits to
        build it into a bike.

        I have decided to go with the Rohloff hub. Any recommendation for rim and spokes and for
        front wheel? I will have a professional build it.

        Also, I am looking for break recommendations. I definitely want disks. Hydro or cable?
        Brands and models?

        Many thanks!

        David

        PS Adk chairs are the coolest looking ever!!


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      • David Chase
        ... Is it indeed special oil? I would normally expect it to be DOT 3, 4, or 5. The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that cables can
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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          On 2008-09-01, at 11:38 AM, Mark Garvey wrote:
          > The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use standard
          > bike brake cables. hydraulics have hoses and special oil.

          Is it indeed special oil? I would normally expect it to be DOT 3, 4,
          or 5.

          The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that cables
          can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them --
          this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his
          derailer. It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying the
          first time it happened.

          David
        • Vik
          Hydraulic brake fluid can overheat from extended braking and should you have an issue with a broken hose or some other failure it s not as easy to repair as
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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            Hydraulic brake fluid can overheat from extended braking and should you have an issue with a broken hose or some other failure it's not as easy to repair as replacing a cable - particularly if you are on the road away from home or a stocked LBS.  I've known two people that switched from hydraulic discs to mechanical discs due to the over heating issue.

            safe riding,

            Vik
            www.vikram-banerjee.com
            www.thelazyrando.com
            www.viks-tikit.com
            www.viks-bigdummy.com




            On 1-Sep-08, at 10:46 AM, David Chase wrote:


            On 2008-09-01, at 11:38 AM, Mark Garvey wrote:
            > The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use standard 
            > bike brake cables. hydraulics have hoses and special oil.

            Is it indeed special oil? I would normally expect it to be DOT 3, 4, 
            or 5.

            The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that cables 
            can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them -- 
            this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his 
            derailer. It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying the 
            first time it happened.

            David


          • MH
            ... I ve been riding my cycle cable activated brakes & dérailleurs during the past 9 winters here in Wisconsin. Once I threw some hot water on them. What do
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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              > Mark Garvey wrote:
              >> The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use standard
              >> bike brake cables. hydraulics have hoses and special oil.

              David Chase wrote:
              > Is it indeed special oil? I would normally expect it to be DOT 3, 4,
              > or 5.
              >
              > The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that cables
              > can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them --
              > this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his
              > derailer. It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying the
              > first time it happened.

              I've been riding my cycle cable activated brakes &
              dérailleurs during the past 9 winters here in Wisconsin.
              Once I threw some hot water on them. What do you do?

              I imagine Avid BB-5 cable disc brakes would probably be great but
              I have some Avid BB-7 cable disc brakes for the past year and half.
              They're a far cry better than my rim brakes to the point of being
              almost dangerous. Once I applied to much pressure to the front
              disc brake at 2-3 mph and did a endo. No one was around to
              appreciate the humorous comedy of errors but me. -Mark H.
            • David Chase
              ... Sure, but this is not rocket science -- cars have had hydraulic disk brakes for years. The hoses (on cars, at least) are very durable and almost never
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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                On 2008-09-01, at 1:32 PM, Vik wrote:

                > Hydraulic brake fluid can overheat from extended braking and should
                > you have an issue with a broken hose or some other failure it's not
                > as easy to repair as replacing a cable - particularly if you are on
                > the road away from home or a stocked LBS. I've known two people
                > that switched from hydraulic discs to mechanical discs due to the
                > over heating issue.

                Sure, but this is not rocket science -- cars have had hydraulic disk
                brakes for years. The hoses (on cars, at least) are very durable and
                almost never fail. I'm really surprised that this happened -- what
                brand were they using?

                David
              • David Chase
                ... I popped the end of the cable loose (from one of the frame stops), wrestled it off the cable where it was frozen (twisting helps lots) till the icy inner
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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                  On 2008-09-01, at 1:57 PM, MH wrote:
                  > > The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that
                  > cables
                  > > can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them --
                  > > this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his
                  > > derailer. It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying
                  > the
                  > > first time it happened.
                  >
                  > I've been riding my cycle cable activated brakes &
                  > dérailleurs during the past 9 winters here in Wisconsin.
                  > Once I threw some hot water on them. What do you do?
                  >
                  I popped the end of the cable loose (from one of the frame stops),
                  wrestled it off the cable where it was frozen (twisting helps lots)
                  till the icy inner cable was exposed, and cracked/wiped it off. To
                  prevent it, now, I try to keep water out of the lower end, which is
                  where I think it got in.

                  David
                • Mark Garvey
                  yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs. And yes, you have to be aware that ANY cable that gets water in it in
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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                    yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.   And yes, you have to be aware that ANY cable that gets water in it in winter can have a freeze problem.  I discovered this to my embarrassment and some fright when I washed my Trike in the wash bay at work one day and rode it around outside afterward spinning around in the snow. It was below Zero and before long the brakes were locked  and you could not break them free!  yikes!  Foot brakes!

                    EVERY mechanical system has its strengths and weaknesses. what you have to do is decide what works well in your circumstance.  For instance, right now, my favorite bike, other than my X is my mid 1960's Schwinn Typhoon with the 2 speed Bendix Kickback hub....Tres Cool!  and VERY casual!

                    mark

                    On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 11:46 AM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:

                    On 2008-09-01, at 11:38 AM, Mark Garvey wrote:
                    > The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use standard
                    > bike brake cables.  hydraulics have hoses and special oil.

                    Is it indeed special oil?  I would normally expect it to be DOT 3, 4,
                    or 5.

                    The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that cables
                    can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them --
                    this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his
                    derailer.  It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying the
                    first time it happened.

                    David


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                  • kwikfile08
                    David, Welcome - It sounds like you will have a nice rig when you get done no matter if you go hydraulic or cable. There is boatload of technical support here
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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                      David,

                      Welcome - It sounds like you will have a nice rig when you get done no matter if you go
                      hydraulic or cable. There is boatload of technical support here in the Roots Rads. You may
                      have already seen posts by Devian. I respect his experience in stuff like this. His rides are
                      very sweet and mechanically sound.

                      good luck and post some pictures when you are done with the build.

                      Carl
                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "djdannenberg" <suedave@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > All,
                      >
                      > I subscribed about a week ago and have been lurking. Interesting stuff.
                      >
                      > My BD frame will arrive in about 2 days and I am figuring out and accumulating the bits
                      to
                      > build it into a bike.
                      >
                      > I have decided to go with the Rohloff hub. Any recommendation for rim and spokes and
                      for
                      > front wheel? I will have a professional build it.
                      >
                      > Also, I am looking for break recommendations. I definitely want disks. Hydro or cable?
                      > Brands and models?
                      >
                      > Many thanks!
                      >
                      > David
                      >
                      > PS Adk chairs are the coolest looking ever!!
                      >
                    • Jake Wilson
                      ... standard ... 4, ... cables ... the ... ~~~I haven t read all the replies on this discussion but I did see where Vik mentioned hydraulic disc systems
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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                        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > On 2008-09-01, at 11:38 AM, Mark Garvey wrote:
                        > > The only difference that I can see is that cable discs use
                        standard
                        > > bike brake cables. hydraulics have hoses and special oil.
                        >
                        > Is it indeed special oil? I would normally expect it to be DOT 3,
                        4,
                        > or 5.
                        >
                        > The other difference, besides standardization (or not) is that
                        cables
                        > can actually freeze in the winter when they get water inside them --

                        > this happened to me, and a friend/colleague had it happen to his
                        > derailer. It's not a hard fix, but it was surprising and annoying
                        the
                        > first time it happened.
                        >
                        > David
                        >







                        ~~~I haven't read all the replies on this discussion but I did see
                        where Vik mentioned hydraulic disc systems overheating, then David
                        here mentions cables freezing. If it's not one thing it's another=:-
                        ) but just goes to show you that extremes in temperature can
                        negatively impact both


                        I've never used hydraulic brakes on a bicycle. I have several bikes
                        (one bike and one trike actually) with cable disc brakes. I've never
                        felt the need for more braking power when using the cable disc and
                        that's supposed to be one of the advantages of the fluid disc brake
                        over the cable (more braking power). heck, as far as that goes, I've
                        endoed V (rim) brake MTB's hastily ap[plying the front V brake in the
                        past but the original poster wants opinions on a good brake system
                        for a cargo bike


                        I still like cable disc brakes and would use them myself for a BD
                        build, before fitting hyd disc brakes but that's me, and I live in a
                        relatively flat area and one that is also not prone to freezing
                        weather but if frozen cables are a concern for him, what better
                        reason is there to do preventive winter maint, and all cable bikes
                        need a good water dispersal lube before winter strikes. I'm sure few
                        bicyclists do that, including the ones that ride year round in the
                        frozen stuff. Reminds me of my poor winter maint when I drove cages
                        in the winter in and around Detroit pre-1985 (before I moved south
                        permanently). i do remember frozen door locks and fuel line freeze
                        up on occasion. okay, we were talking about bicycles=:-)...sorry, I
                        digress


                        My vote is for cable actuated disc brakes, Avid BB7 in particular









                        Jake
                        Reddick Fla.
                      • MH
                        ... I have the standard 14 gauge stainless steel spokes so I really don t know. I like 559mm or 26 tires and rims. As for rims the best I can offers is to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 1, 2008
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                          >> Any recommendation for rim and spokes and for
                          >> front wheel? I will have a professional build it.
                          >>
                          >> David

                          I have the standard 14 gauge stainless steel spokes
                          so I really don't know. I like 559mm or 26" tires
                          and rims. As for rims the best I can offers is to
                          get double wall rims especially out back. I haven't
                          had mine go out of true but I quickly check spoke
                          tension on occasion to see if anythings lose or broken.
                          -Mark H.
                        • phaedrus
                          ... This is my build: Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 CC DB OEM Tandem (I d recommend going with the external shift linkage, I went with the version that uses skewers
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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                            > I have decided to go with the Rohloff hub. Any recommendation for rim and
                            > spokes and for front wheel? I will have a professional build it.
                            >
                            > Also, I am looking for break recommendations. I definitely want disks. Hydro
                            > or cable? Brands and models?

                            This is my build:

                            Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 CC DB OEM Tandem (I'd recommend going with the
                            external shift linkage, I went with the version that uses skewers so I
                            could protect it with a pitlock)

                            Schmidt SON front hub

                            Wheelsmith 2.0mm straight gauge spokes

                            Velocity Cliffhanger Rims

                            Schwalbe Big Apple 26x2.15" tires

                            Avid BB7 mechanical disk brakes.

                            So far, it has been bomb proof.

                            I've been doored once, and last weekend, I nailed a curb that my
                            heat-exhuastion-crazed mind thought had a curb cut in it and the bike
                            has survived both experiences. I've hauled heavy loads on and off
                            road and gone down more than one set of stairs and have not yet had an
                            equipment failure.

                            Of course, YMMV

                            Good luck and enjoy the bike!

                            - phædrus
                          • Tim Lupfer
                            Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                              Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano hydraulic brakes tend to flake out around minus five or minus ten degrees. Having a spare hose on hand is always a good idea, but I think people expect them to fail more often than they actually do.

                              On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                              yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.  

                            • Mark Garvey
                              Actually, I don t EXPECT them to fail at all......I expect ANY mechanical apparatus that I don t know how to fix to fail an any time that it becomes critical
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                                Actually, I don't EXPECT them to fail at all......I expect ANY mechanical apparatus that I don't know how to fix to fail an any time that it becomes critical to my survival.  It may be a law of nature....If you have an irreplacable part for your bicycle or car, or whatever, the part will FAIL catastrophically somewhere West of Outer Podunk Wyo on a Friday of a 3 day weekend, leaving you stranded!  I don't really care WHAT it is!  I don't use 20 inch wheels and tires on my trailer and 26 inch wheels and tires on my bike because they are "the best" I use them because EVERY DAMNED WAL MART IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE STOCKS THEM!   and no mater what you think of them, THE LONGEST you will have to wait to purchase a wheel, tire or tube that will WORK on your bike is about 4 or 5 hours because some of them are not open 24 hours a day!

                                Same goes for brake and shift cables.  If you have cable brakes, there are cables at Wal Mart, Ace, True Value, JC Penny, Sears and a host of other places, including bike shops.

                                This doesn't mean I will be a shopper at K mart or Wal Mart anytime soon, but that because the pieces are AVAILABLE, they won't break!  that is why I run a 7 speed cogset too.  You can get a replacement at Wal Mart, K mart  Etc.  A 9 speed MUST be used with a special chain, only available at GREAT expense from a bicycle shop.  Usually one that is only open on alternate Thursdays on Months with an S in them.  and you just missed the guy.  He is going on vacation for three weeks!  Besides the parts are not in stock and have to be ordered from Japan by bicycle courrier!

                                This is why I use standard size parts and such,  they are AVAILABLE, which keeps the P*nct*re fairy and his friend the Cable Gnome from attacking my bike.  A part on a bicycle will break in inverse proportion to the availability of a replacement part.

                                This was borne out when I owned a BSA motorcycle.  I found it espedient to order TWO of any part that broke because if I bought ONE, the damned thing would be in use for 72 hours and would FAIL again, requiring 6 hours of wrenching, two hours of Cursing and three weeks of waiting for the part to be shipped in brine via Tea Clipper from Jolly Olde to my home in the Colonies!  wherer the replacement would be either the wrong size, the wrong voltage (usually electric parts, Lucas, Prince of Darkness!) or for an entirely different vehicle...Say a Triumph TR 3 automobile rather than a BSA 441 Victor motorcycle.  with a sincere apology and a stiff upper lip the part would be shipped BACK to england, replaced with ANOTHER incorrect part in another 3 weeks.   I spent about 3 weeks total riding my BSA 441 "Victor" in the 2 years that I owned it.

                                Arrrrgh!  Always use parts you can find at any gas station, hardware store, plumbing supply or Head shop.  NEVER ever have anything that needs special parts only available at great expense from some remote part of the world!

                                mark

                                On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Tim Lupfer <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                                Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano hydraulic brakes tend to flake out around minus five or minus ten degrees. Having a spare hose on hand is always a good idea, but I think people expect them to fail more often than they actually do.


                                On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                                yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.  




                                --
                                Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring. –Desmond Tutu
                              • Tim Lupfer
                                Hey Mark, I didn t mean to get you all worked up :) mostly I just wanted to put in a good word for hydraulic brakes. they work well, especially with long bikes
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                                  Hey Mark,
                                  I didn't mean to get you all worked up :) mostly I just wanted to put in a good word for hydraulic brakes. they work well, especially with long bikes with full length housing (i.e. big dummy), and aren't nearly as difficult to work on as people often seem to think they are. there aren't that many spare parts to have on hand and once installed many setups run trouble free for years with only the infrequent task of changing pads. sure, maybe you can't stop at walmart for parts, but you can keep a stash in your freeloader or at your work bench.
                                  -tim

                                  On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 7:27 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                                  Actually, I don't EXPECT them to fail at all......I expect ANY mechanical apparatus that I don't know how to fix to fail an any time that it becomes critical to my survival.  It may be a law of nature....If you have an irreplacable part for your bicycle or car, or whatever, the part will FAIL catastrophically somewhere West of Outer Podunk Wyo on a Friday of a 3 day weekend, leaving you stranded!  I don't really care WHAT it is!  I don't use 20 inch wheels and tires on my trailer and 26 inch wheels and tires on my bike because they are "the best" I use them because EVERY DAMNED WAL MART IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE STOCKS THEM!   and no mater what you think of them, THE LONGEST you will have to wait to purchase a wheel, tire or tube that will WORK on your bike is about 4 or 5 hours because some of them are not open 24 hours a day!

                                  Same goes for brake and shift cables.  If you have cable brakes, there are cables at Wal Mart, Ace, True Value, JC Penny, Sears and a host of other places, including bike shops.

                                  This doesn't mean I will be a shopper at K mart or Wal Mart anytime soon, but that because the pieces are AVAILABLE, they won't break!  that is why I run a 7 speed cogset too.  You can get a replacement at Wal Mart, K mart  Etc.  A 9 speed MUST be used with a special chain, only available at GREAT expense from a bicycle shop.  Usually one that is only open on alternate Thursdays on Months with an S in them.  and you just missed the guy.  He is going on vacation for three weeks!  Besides the parts are not in stock and have to be ordered from Japan by bicycle courrier!

                                  This is why I use standard size parts and such,  they are AVAILABLE, which keeps the P*nct*re fairy and his friend the Cable Gnome from attacking my bike.  A part on a bicycle will break in inverse proportion to the availability of a replacement part.

                                  This was borne out when I owned a BSA motorcycle.  I found it espedient to order TWO of any part that broke because if I bought ONE, the damned thing would be in use for 72 hours and would FAIL again, requiring 6 hours of wrenching, two hours of Cursing and three weeks of waiting for the part to be shipped in brine via Tea Clipper from Jolly Olde to my home in the Colonies!  wherer the replacement would be either the wrong size, the wrong voltage (usually electric parts, Lucas, Prince of Darkness!) or for an entirely different vehicle...Say a Triumph TR 3 automobile rather than a BSA 441 Victor motorcycle.  with a sincere apology and a stiff upper lip the part would be shipped BACK to england, replaced with ANOTHER incorrect part in another 3 weeks.   I spent about 3 weeks total riding my BSA 441 "Victor" in the 2 years that I owned it.

                                  Arrrrgh!  Always use parts you can find at any gas station, hardware store, plumbing supply or Head shop.  NEVER ever have anything that needs special parts only available at great expense from some remote part of the world!

                                  mark


                                  On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Tim Lupfer <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                                  Several companies use dot fluid including avid, hayes, formula and hope. It seems to work much better in sub-zero temperatures than mineral oil. Shimano hydraulic brakes tend to flake out around minus five or minus ten degrees. Having a spare hose on hand is always a good idea, but I think people expect them to fail more often than they actually do.


                                  On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                                  yeah, it is usually mineral oil, DOT oil will ruin MOST (if not all!) hydraulic discs.  




                                  --
                                  Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring. –Desmond Tutu

                                • Philip Chase
                                  ... put in a ... bikes ... OK I was willing to ignore this when only one person said it, but now I am hearing an echo of the long-brake-cables-are-a-problem
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Lupfer" <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hey Mark,
                                    > I didn't mean to get you all worked up :) mostly I just wanted to
                                    put in a
                                    > good word for hydraulic brakes. they work well, especially with long
                                    bikes
                                    > with full length housing (i.e. big dummy)...

                                    OK I was willing to ignore this when only one person said it, but now
                                    I am hearing an echo of the long-brake-cables-are-a-problem theory. I
                                    respectfully disagree. As of yesterday my BD has logged 1050km while
                                    my Avid BB7 cable-actuated brakes have not caused any problems. Five
                                    months of riding on my FreeRad bike before the BD were also devoid of
                                    all brake cable problems.

                                    Brake cables do not require the same precision as indexed shifting. A
                                    little cable stretch or excessive bending can alter the path length to
                                    the rear derailleur and cause missed or delayed shifting. All the
                                    brake cable needs to do is pull far enough to squeeze the stationary
                                    part against the rotating part and have low enough friction to release
                                    when you do. If a break cable stretches how could ever distinguish
                                    that from pad wear?

                                    I am now having occasionally indexed shifting on problems on my BD as
                                    the LBS predicted, but it took about 800km. The brakes have been great.

                                    So will the long tail riders with cable-related rear brake problem
                                    please stand and be counted?

                                    Philip
                                  • Mark Garvey
                                    ... HAH!! Dude! No, not worked up at all! I hope that didn t sound like I was angry or something. All I was pointing out is that my idea is ultra
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                      On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Tim Lupfer <tim.lupfer@...> wrote:
                                      Hey Mark,
                                      I didn't mean to get you all worked up :)


                                      HAH!!  Dude!  No, not worked up at all!  I hope that didn't sound like I was angry or something.  All I was pointing out is that my idea is ultra reliability....or maybe that I am a firm believer in Murphy!  Personally, I look at EVERYTHING on this forum as a discussion among friends and not some sort of war or even fight. 

                                      hydraulic brakes are really quite good.  I think that they have great potential and reliability is pretty darn good from what I have seen.  Most motorcycles I have owned and all cars have them so they work and are reliable.  But just to bump my point....One day I was backing a semi into a dock when I noticed red fluid on the ground under the truck!  Ack!  a quick look revealed a burst Hydraulic line on the power steering!   I quick drove the few blocks to a repair shop and $100 and an hour later, I was in posession of a rebuilt line!   But a 3/4 inch line is too big for a bike!  HAH!

                                      Anyway, I am not disagreeing with your point of reliability.  I was pointing out that I plan for a part to fail and plan accordingly.  This goes with my philosophy of carrying a spare tube AND a patch kit!  That way the P*nct*re fairy does not bother me!  having replaceable parts means that you never have to replace them!

                                      mark
                                    • David Chase
                                      ... I m not 100% sure, but I think that shifting is twitchy enough that you can have temperature-dependent problems, depending on how the cables are routed and
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                        On 2008-09-06, at 7:16 AM, Philip Chase wrote:
                                        > I am now having occasionally indexed shifting on problems on my BD as
                                        > the LBS predicted, but it took about 800km. The brakes have been
                                        > great.
                                        >
                                        I'm not 100% sure, but I think that shifting is twitchy enough that
                                        you can have temperature-dependent problems, depending on how the
                                        cables are routed and what they (and your bike) are made of. The
                                        difference between Al and Steel coefficent of expansion could be as
                                        much as .000006/degree-F. For two meter cables, times an 80-degree
                                        swing, gets you 2x80x.000006 = almost a millimeter!
                                        We don't get an 80-degree swing all in one day, but July-to-January,
                                        absolutely. Add to that, that indexed derailleur adjustment seems to
                                        require sub-millimeter adjustments.

                                        So there might be a "winter cable adjustment" and a "summer cable
                                        adjustment".
                                        > So will the long tail riders with cable-related rear brake problem
                                        > please stand and be counted?
                                        >
                                        Well, there's ice. The way the FreeRadical disk brake is mounted,
                                        there's a sort of natural valley in the cable routing, and that's
                                        where the ice ends up. I've seriously considered trying to build a
                                        "drain" -- perhaps it would be sufficient simply to cut the housing.

                                        David
                                      • Mark Garvey
                                        ... HEH! you just helped prove my point there Phil! I am a bit of a retro grouch I know. I don t LIKE Index shifting! I have friction shifters! if the
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                          On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Philip Chase <philipbchase@...> wrote:


                                          I am now having occasionally indexed shifting on problems on my BD as
                                          the LBS predicted, but it took about 800km.  The brakes have been great.



                                          HEH!  you just helped prove my point there Phil!  I am a bit of a retro grouch I know.  I don't LIKE Index shifting!  I have friction shifters!  if the cable stretches, you never know until it won't shift into the lowest gear.  Ta Daaa!  My point is made, I have made my contribution!   the less complex a piece of equipment is, the less likely to fail!

                                          I am trying to make up my mind whether to convert my old Schwinn Typhoon to an X and keep the 2 speed Bendix hub on it!  Talk about nice!  A low gear for starting and up hill, a higher one for flats....downhill is coast!  Very comfy fat tire cruiser ride!

                                          mark
                                        • Tim Lupfer
                                          ... I didn t say claim any problem with cable brakes. In fact, I didn t even mention cable brakes in my post. I said that hydraulic brakes work especially
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                            On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Philip Chase <philipbchase@...> wrote:
                                            > OK I was willing to ignore this when only one person said it, but now
                                            > I am hearing an echo of the long-brake-cables-are-a-problem theory. I
                                            > respectfully disagree. As of yesterday my BD has logged 1050km while
                                            > my Avid BB7 cable-actuated brakes have not caused any problems. Five
                                            > months of riding on my FreeRad bike before the BD were also devoid of
                                            > all brake cable problems.

                                            I didn't say claim any "problem" with cable brakes. In fact, I didn't
                                            even mention cable brakes in my post. I said that hydraulic brakes
                                            work especially well. I have used bb7 brakes on an xtracycle and they
                                            stopped fine. However, the lever feel was spongy and they required
                                            more frequent adjustments for cable stretch and pad wear. They also
                                            needed a lot of winter maintenance to combat the sludge covered
                                            Minnesota roads that I ride on.
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