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[rootsradicals] New Surly frame

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  • Tone
    It seems that everyone is pretty much speculating about Surly s Big Dummy frame and if Xtracycle will be building their own single frame bike version. From
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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                  It seems that everyone is pretty much speculating about Surly’s “Big Dummy” frame and if Xtracycle will be building their own single frame bike version. From the photos I have seen of the “Big Dummy,” my guess is Surly probably licensed or obtained permission to create their frame, with the idea of Xtracycle providing the marketed fitted components like the snap deck, footsies, etc. Otherwise wouldn’t there be legal issues for Surly, since they already revealed the “Big Dummy” with Xtracycle’s components?

       

                  I have one major concern with the idea of a single frame long-tail bike. Since I have owned an Xtracycle over three or four years ago, I am already on my THIRD FreeRadical frame. My two previous FreeRadical frames developed cracks just behind the dropouts, which is the weakest part of the FreeRadical. Keep in mind I work as a messenger in NYC and I may very well carry heavier loads on a more frequents basis than the average Xtracycle user. Of course the guys at Xtracycle were super about everything and replaced the frames for free both times. I just paid shipping for the old frame back to them.

                  Anyway, with this in mind, my concern with a single frame full-bike version is whether the frame, Surly’s or otherwise, would still have that particular weak spot. It is one thing to have a FreeRadical frame break on you and just have to replace the FreeRadical, but imagine the incredible hassle and probably cost of having to replace an entire long-tail bike! While the FreeRadical fame is in the shop or being shipped back, etc… you can at least still ride your bike around, but that would not be the case with a full single-frame long-tail bike.

      _TONE_

       

    • todd fahrner
      ... All I know is that this was an Xtracycle-Surly friendly project, not some kind of rip-off job like some are speculating. I have also heard that Quality
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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        On 10/3/06, Tone <Tone@...> wrote:

        > It seems that everyone is pretty much speculating about Surly's
        > "Big Dummy" frame and if Xtracycle will be building their own single frame
        > bike version. From the photos I have seen of the "Big Dummy," my guess is
        > Surly probably licensed or obtained permission to create their frame, with
        > the idea of Xtracycle providing the marketed fitted components like the snap
        > deck, footsies, etc. Otherwise wouldn't there be legal issues for Surly,
        > since they already revealed the "Big Dummy" with Xtracycle's components?

        All I know is that this was an Xtracycle-Surly friendly project, not
        some kind of rip-off job like some are speculating. I have also heard
        that Quality Bike Parts (QBP, Surly's parent company) will be
        distributing Xtracycle parts sometime soon (Can anybody confirm?). As
        far as I know, Xtracycle's patent covers the retrofit kit idea, not
        any longtail that happens to accept the racks Xtracycle designed and
        makes. It seems to me that people getting behind this rack design
        helps rather than hurts Xtracycle, big time.

        > I have one major concern with the idea of a single frame
        > long-tail bike. Since I have owned an Xtracycle over three or four years
        > ago, I am already on my THIRD FreeRadical frame. My two previous FreeRadical
        > frames developed cracks just behind the dropouts, which is the weakest part
        > of the FreeRadical.

        Seems to me that it breaks there because the rear bridge is
        cantilevered out a long way on the unbraced tubes rear of the
        dropouts. (This is why Xtracycle recommends against heavy loads rear
        of the dropouts, like no second adult passenger.) Surly's design
        appears to address this with that triangular structure above the
        dropouts supporting the rear bridge. Surly has a reputation for
        building frames that are anything but weak. Heavy, that's how people
        criticize Surly. Not weak.
      • Christopher Palmer
        ... I saw the Big Dummy at Interbike last week, and since Kipchoge was standing there, and the guy at Surly introduced me to him, I d say the project is on the
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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          At 05:37 AM 10/3/2006, you wrote:
          >my guess is Surly probably licensed or obtained permission to create their
          >frame, with the idea of Xtracycle providing the marketed fitted components
          >like the snap deck, footsies, etc. Otherwise wouldn't there be legal
          >issues for Surly, since they already revealed the "Big Dummy" with
          >Xtracycle's components?

          I saw the Big Dummy at Interbike last week, and since Kipchoge was standing
          there, and the guy at Surly introduced me to him, I'd say the project is on
          the up-and-up. BTW - the bike is GORGEOUS!!! I have lots of pix of it,
          but I don't know if it's kosher to post a link here or not. If someone in
          power gives the go ahead I'll post a link.

          > Anyway, with this in mind, my concern with a single frame full-bike
          > version is whether the frame, Surly's or otherwise, would still have that
          > particular weak spot.

          Looking at the prototype it was clear that Surly knows what they are doing
          (no big surpise)

          CTP
        • John Speare
          ... There are a number of pics already on teh internet. this one: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=2289363&postcount=29 i think the guy on fixedgear had
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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            On 10/3/06, Christopher Palmer <ctp@...> wrote:
            >
            >

            >
            > I saw the Big Dummy at Interbike last week, and since Kipchoge was standing
            > there, and the guy at Surly introduced me to him, I'd say the project is on
            > the up-and-up. BTW - the bike is GORGEOUS!!! I have lots of pix of it,
            > but I don't know if it's kosher to post a link here or not. If someone in
            > power gives the go ahead I'll post a link.
            >

            There are a number of pics already on teh internet. this one:
            http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=2289363&postcount=29
            i think the guy on fixedgear had one up too.

            I've seen it a couple times in the last week.

            --
            John Speare
            Spokane, WA USA
            http://www.johndogfood.com/john/bikes.html
          • Christopher Palmer
            Okay, cool - well if MTBR and DirtRag can post pix so can I! LOL Start here for the Big Dummy -
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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              Okay, cool - well if MTBR and DirtRag can post pix so can I! LOL

              Start here for the Big Dummy -
              http://flickr.com/photos/ctp/256895978/in/set-72157594306639543/

              I haven't added my own commentary yet (i'm about halfway thru my Interbike
              pix titles' and rants)

              CTP

              At 10:44 AM 10/3/2006, you wrote:
              >There are a number of pics already on teh internet. this one:
              >http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=2289363&postcount=29
              >i think the guy on fixedgear had one up too.
              >
              >I've seen it a couple times in the last week.
            • Devian Gilbert
              what i d really like to know, is if the Big Dummy wiggles when it climbs. my Cdale convert has this whip effect when i stand to climb with a load. so for
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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                Okay, cool - well if MTBR and DirtRag can post pix so can I! LOL

                Start here for the Big Dummy -
                http://flickr. com/photos/ ctp/256895978/ in/set-721575943 06639543/

                I haven't added my own commentary yet (i'm about halfway thru my Interbike
                pix titles' and rants)

                CTP

                At 10:44 AM 10/3/2006, you wrote:

                >There are a number of pics already on teh internet. this one:
                >http://forums. mtbr.com/ showpost. php?p=2289363& postcount= 29
                >i think the guy on fixedgear had one up too.
                >
                >I've seen it a couple times in the last week.

              • Tone
                Christopher, Thanks a bunch for posting a link to your Interbike photos. So far your photos gave me the best overall picture of the SurlyXycle (Just my
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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                  Christopher,

                              Thanks a bunch for posting a link to your Interbike photos. So far your photos gave me the best overall picture of the SurlyXycle (Just my abbreviation for it). I can now see what Todd had mentioned about the supportive triangle structure above the dropouts. That is really great. The SurlyXycle looks hot!

                              Now I figure I know what my next serious work frame will be, but I am still going to wait until my current phatt tube aluminum Univega 750FS completely gives on me. Amazingly so far it has survived about 10 years of constant hardcore riding in New York City streets in all kinds of weather as well as number of loaded touring trips. About a year ago when my odometer failed I had around 20,000 miles on that one frame, and I only had that odometer on the bike for about half of the bike’s life! I wonder if the Surly frame will hold out as long. J

                   

                              Something I was thinking about in Surly’s design is that triangular structure Todd mentioned would also provide some level of a supportive backing to loads. That would eliminate the need to install a disc brake protector.

                              Also from at least one of Christopher’s photos it kind of looks like the mounted footsie/footsy platform clips onto a secondary shorter parallel tube. You can JUST barely notice it connecting to the frame at the rear end of the footsie in this photo of Christopher’s:

                  http://flickr.com/photos/ctp/256914335/in/set-72157594306639543/

                              Does anyone know or understand the reasoning to this additional parallel shorter tube? I would think the frame could have been made in such a way for the footsie to mount on without additional tubing.

                   

                              One NON-Xtracycle question I am curious about for anyone, who went to Interbike, is if they noticed any companies (like Dahon for instance) showing 20” wheeled folding bikes WITH disc brake compatibility? Even though my Xtracycled bike is my primary (and only) bike, I have wanted to get a 20” folder. This way it would be way more convenient to travel abroad and tour with. The thing is I would really prefer to have disc brakes, so I have been waiting on that idea until some company comes out with a 20” wheeled folder with disc brake compatibility. So far I have not seen anything like that on the market. I figure if I ever got any 20” wheeled folding frame I could always switch out a front fork with disc brake mounts, so that would not be a major problem, but rear disc brakes would still be an unobtainable component.

                  _TONE_

                   

                • Christopher Palmer
                  ... No worries! ... Yep, Dahon has a bike called the Groove with disk brakes. I think it s retailing for $999...but don t quote me :) Other than that I didn t
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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                    >Christopher,
                    > Thanks a bunch for posting a link to your Interbike photos.

                    No worries!

                    >
                    > One NON-Xtracycle question I am curious about for
                    >anyone, who went to Interbike, is if they noticed any companies
                    >(like Dahon for instance) showing 20" wheeled folding bikes WITH
                    >disc brake compatibility?

                    Yep, Dahon has a bike called the Groove with disk brakes. I think
                    it's retailing for $999...but don't quote me :)

                    Other than that I didn't see any, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

                    CTP
                  • Tone
                    Chris, MAJOR Thanks for the heads up on the disc brake Dahon 20 folder! I am definitely going to be looking into it! :-) Sweet! _TONE_
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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                      Chris,

                                  MAJOR Thanks for the heads up on the disc brake Dahon 20” folder! I am definitely going to be looking into it! J Sweet!

                      _TONE_

                       

                    • Tone
                      The issue some Xtracycle users have of a normal kickstand versus wanting a center stand just occurred to me, so I went back to take a look at the various
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                    The issue some Xtracycle users have of a normal kickstand versus wanting a center stand just occurred to me, so I went back to take a look at the various photos I have seen of the “SurlyXycle.“ Unfortunately it seems Surly’s frame just uses the standard kickstand. I kind of wished they might have thought ahead and tried to integrate a center stand into the design some how. L

                        _TONE_

                         

                      • John Speare
                        ... I agree Tone, It s a major mistake in my mind too. Overall the kickstand/center stand issue is probably the biggest design foul on an other wise killer
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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                          On 10/4/06, Tone <Tone@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The issue some Xtracycle users have of a normal kickstand versus wanting a center stand just occurred to me, so I went back to take a look at the various photos I have seen of the "SurlyXycle." Unfortunately it seems Surly's frame just uses the standard kickstand. I kind of wished they might have thought ahead and tried to integrate a center stand into the design some how. L
                          >

                          I agree Tone, It's a major mistake in my mind too. Overall the
                          kickstand/center stand issue is probably the biggest design foul on an
                          other wise killer piece of hardware (the xtracycle that is).

                          Once you put a center stand on the xtracycle it becomes about 100%
                          more usable when loading. Especially if you have a kid on the bike as
                          you load. My understanding is that the center stands that are sold by
                          xtracycle are not usable with the wide loaders?? I find that hard to
                          believe, but that's what I've been told.

                          The stock kickstand is ok once you learn how to load (groceries, say)
                          in the right order inot the freeloaders. But parking the loaded bike
                          on anything but the most stable, flat spot is pretty if-y.

                          I've have a brake-lever acctuated center stand on my xtracycle for the
                          last few months now and I cannot imagine going back to the stock
                          stand. My daughter can sit on the bike (on a front mounted seat that
                          sits on teh top tube) while I load up the bike any old way.

                          I really wish the folks at xtracycle would look at integrating/selling
                          something like this -- it's such a good solution.

                          Pictures and more info on the stand here: http://www.johndogfood.com/x#stand

                          John


                          --
                          John Speare
                          Spokane, WA USA
                          http://www.johndogfood.com/john/bikes.html
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