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Dummy news

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  • Devian Gilbert
    from the Surly Blog. d- www.AsanaCycles.com Bicycle Lifestyle, realized. D.G.
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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      from the Surly Blog.


      d-
      "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.

    • Vik
      Thanks for the heads up. I knew the price was going up...now at least we know how much a Big Dummy is going to cost. safe riding, Vik vikbanerjee@gmail.com
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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        Thanks for the heads up. I knew the price was going up...now at least we know how much a Big Dummy is going to cost.

        safe riding,

        Vik
        www.vikram-banerjee.com
        www.thelazyrando.com
        www.viks-tikit.com
        www.viks-bigdummy.com



        On 2-Jul-08, at 4:58 PM, Devian Gilbert wrote:

        from the Surly Blog.



        d-
        "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.



      • Drew
        First I like Surly as a company. Second I am not waiting for a bike from them. These are just my personal thoughts. I get the idea that costs are rising and
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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          First I like Surly as a company. Second I am not waiting for a bike from them. These are just my personal thoughts.

          I get the idea that costs are rising and don't fault Surly for raising prices accordingly, but if you have already purchased a bike and are waiting for delivery, shouldn't the price stick?

          Also they say they are factoring in a future additional price increase now so they don't come back later and do it again. Now if you tell me I need to pay 75 bucks more now cause of costs, that's one thing. But to charge me 155 more now because you are going to raise it another 80 bucks in the future, seems odd. What do I care if you need to raise prices later. I will already have paid for mine. Just sounds shady to me.
          Am I wrong on this?

          This is from their blog release

          The bad news is that steel prices and transportation costs have increased significantly of late, which means our costs are going up and so are yours. While the price increases will be felt across the line, there are a lot of people waiting on Big Dummy frames who may have paid a deposit already. If you are waiting on a Big Dummy, or if you are a shop that has quoted a price to a customer for a Big Dummy (or Long Haul Trucker for that matter), check in with whoever you need to and update your agreement. MSRP for a Big Dummy frame and fork is now $1050. It was $895. We've actually factored into this number another impending and definitely happening price increase so that we won't have to do this again anytime soon.

          --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...> wrote:
          From: Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...>
          Subject: [rootsradicals] Dummy news
          To: "rootsradicals rootsradicals" <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 3:58 PM

          from the Surly Blog.

          d-
          "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.


        • Robin Skyler Tell
          I guess they can price it however they like, so the anticipatory price hike doesn t strike me as shady particularly. But I definitely had the same thought
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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            I guess they can price it however they like, so the anticipatory price
            hike doesn't strike me as shady particularly. But I definitely had the
            same thought about the guys on the waiting list. Matter of fact I'm not
            at all sure it can stand up legally--I would sure as hell kick up a fuss
            if it were me. Once you have a number on paper and agreed, you can pretty
            much hold them to it, I think.

            Sad news about the prices (though inevitable) but it's going to hit a lot
            of other industries harder--bike companies are accelerating into larger
            economies of scale, not wilting.

            R

            On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Drew wrote:

            > I get the idea that costs are rising and don't fault Surly for raising prices accordingly, but if you have already purchased a bike and are waiting for delivery, shouldn't the price stick?
            >
            > Also they say they are factoring in a future additional price increase now so they don't come back later and do it again. Now if you tell me I need to pay 75 bucks more now cause of costs, that's one thing. But to charge me 155 more now because you are going to raise it another 80 bucks in the future, seems odd. What do I care if you need to raise prices later. I will already have paid for mine. Just sounds shady to me.
            > Am I wrong on this?
          • Spidra Webster
            That s too bad. I d really hoped that as more people embraced it and as the market increased, the price would go down a bit. ... Megan Lynch Berkeley, CA
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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              That's too bad.  I'd really hoped that as more people embraced it and as the market increased, the price would go down a bit. 

              On Jul 2, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Vik wrote:
              Thanks for the heads up. I knew the price was going up...now at least we know how much a Big Dummy is going to cost.

              safe riding,


              Megan Lynch


              Berkeley, CA


              CRFG, NAFEX: I'm in USDA Zone 9b


              Garden with me on Folia: http://myfolia.com/gardener/spidra/invite

              Golden Gate Chapter Blog: http://crfggoldengate.blogspot.com/


              Chapter Events on Upcoming.org:  http://upcoming.yahoo.com/group/3429/

            • Steve Lange
              ... I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles... for many people, the X is surely good enough ! I know mine is making me very satisfied so far,
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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                Devian Gilbert wrote:
                > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybikes.com/surlyblog.html>

                I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles... for many
                people, the X is surely "good enough"!

                I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have to be
                loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain, based on
                how it's performed to date.

                Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a satisfied
                customer!

                Steve
              • Morgan
                Now that I m in the business (selling cargo bike related things, including, I hope, the Big Dummy when they are back in stock) - I have a few comments on the
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  Now that I'm in "the business" (selling cargo bike related things,
                  including, I hope, the Big Dummy when they are back in stock) - I have
                  a few comments on the whole pricing thing, mostly just relevant to the
                  US market (with apologies to non-US readers).

                  Prices are going up across the board, for everything. And it isn't
                  going to stop anytime soon. We are in an unprecedented period of
                  currency revaluation, which means the dollar is going down as other
                  currencies rise. On top of that, we have the huge new energy and
                  resource costs, now that everyone has suddenly woken up from the orgy
                  of the past 20 years and realized that there are limited supplies of
                  oil, copper, steel, lithium, etc. Even the Chinese are being hit hard
                  by this, and in an unprecedented move, they re-priced gasoline
                  recently (which is subsidized by the gov't there).

                  In the past month, we've had not one, but two, wholesale price
                  increases from a single well known bike company. Also, every time we
                  order something from overseas (batteries, electric bikes, etc), the
                  price has gone up. Our wholesale price on the latest/greatest
                  batteries (lithium iron phosphate, enviro friendly and long lasting)
                  went up a whopping 35% in a period of 6 months. Aren't prices on new
                  technologies supposed to always drop? Not anymore. The game has
                  changed.

                  We are in an inflationary recession. Unfortunately, the popular press
                  is asleep at the wheel on this one, mostly just quoting the government
                  price inflation, which is bogus (just Google on CPI and "lies").
                  Based on food, oil, and everything else, it would not surprise me if
                  the real inflation rate this year is at least 10-15%. And, it would
                  not surprise me at all if it gets worse before it gets better. This
                  is the main reason gold has gone through the roof. Not because gold
                  is worth more now, but because the dollar is worth less now, and so it
                  takes more of the worth less dollars to purchase the same gold (if
                  that makes any sense).

                  Instead of seeing it as "the price of X is going up", I see it as "the
                  value of my dollars is going down," because that's really what is
                  happening.
                  Somehow, that makes me feel a bit better about paying twice as much
                  for a loaf of bread this year than last. The bread doesn't cost more,
                  it's just that my dollars are more like 50 cent pieces now. Too bad
                  my salary didn't go up to give me twice as many of them...

                  Hey, the dollars are just paper, anyway, and have been since the Nixon
                  era (when de-linked from precious metals).

                  So, I hope to get my own Big Dummy soon, while I can actually still
                  afford one in USD...

                  Morgan



                  > Posted by: "Spidra Webster" spidra@... tattercoatWed Jul
                  > 2, 2008 6:53 pm (PDT)
                  > That's too bad. I'd really hoped that as more people embraced it and
                  > as the market increased, the price would go down a bit.
                  >
                  > On Jul 2, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Vik wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thanks for the heads up. I knew the price was going up...now at
                  > > least we know how much a Big Dummy is going to cost.
                  > >
                  > > safe riding,
                  >
                  > Megan Lynch
                  >
                  > Berkeley, CA
                  >
                  > CRFG, NAFEX: I'm in USDA Zone 9b
                  >
                  > Garden with me on Folia: http://myfolia.com/gardener/spidra/invite
                  > Golden Gate Chapter Blog: http://crfggoldengate.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  > CRFG Flickr Pool: http://www.flickr.com/groups/crfg/
                  >
                  > Chapter Events on Upcoming.org: http://upcoming.yahoo.com/group/3429/
                • Mark Garvey
                  ... Yeah, what she said! Fuel prices alone are driving a bit of this. My boss pays $4.50 a gallon for Diesel and we have to tack a fuel surcharge on to our
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                    On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@...> wrote:


                    Prices are going up across the board, for everything.

                    Yeah, what she said!  Fuel prices alone are driving a bit of this.  My boss pays $4.50 a gallon for Diesel and we have to tack a fuel surcharge on to our regular fees.  Guess who pays this?  Whoever is buying the carpet I carry.  And anything you own, got there by truck.  It USED to cost about $500 to fill my fuel tanks for a week, now it is closer to $1000.  (I only burn about 200 gallons a week) and this means that everything from cars to corn flakes  costs more to put on shelves.  Call it what you want, but costs are rising for everything.  I remember (being an old fart) when you could buy a really decent bicycle for about $200.  a Schwinn Paramount went for about $700 and that was unholy expensive!  Now it is not uncommon to see $4000 bikes.  My first new motorcycle cost less than  that!  So did my first (and only) new car!

                    Not that the BD at one large is a "good" thing.  But I would rather spend a bit more to keep people like surly in business honestly. 

                    Plus going into the whole fuel and transportation thing, Ships burn Diesel also.  Bikes come from china on big ships, so that cost is higher...Wages for workers in China are going up now.  Skilled workers can pretty much name the price because EVERYONE wants skilled workers there.

                    I don't want to go into a whole economics thing here, but that is what happens when you start exporting jobs...at first it works out well, but pretty soon, your exported jobs are costing more and you don't have people at home to buy your goods because your "good jobs' are across the sea and you are stuck with  the transportation costs to boot!

                    mark
                  • Victor Khong
                    Given the price discrepancy between a Surly Instigator with Free Radical and a built-up Big Dummy, its easy to see how the market will choose. In fact, I think
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                      Given the price discrepancy between a Surly Instigator with Free Radical and a built-up Big Dummy, its easy to see how the market will choose.

                      In fact, I think Xtracycle will make another huge batch of Free Radicals as I can't see demand tapering off.  The new pricing of the Big Dummy will reduce the number of people who can afford it while it makes more and more sense to re-purpose a dormant bike by fitting it with a Free Radical.   E.assist kits are abundant and relatively affordable extending the usefulness of the Xtracycle-bike in hills and headwinds or when under loads.


                      --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:
                      From: Steve Lange <steve@...>
                      Subject: Re: [rootsradicals] Dummy news
                      To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 8:28 PM

                      Devian Gilbert wrote:
                      > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybik es.com/surlyblog .html>

                      I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles.. . for many
                      people, the X is surely "good enough"!

                      I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have to be
                      loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain, based on
                      how it's performed to date.

                      Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a satisfied
                      customer!

                      Steve


                    • Jay
                      I have to agree with Devian here. I ve been an avid xtracycle rider for years and daily commuter with it. I waited around to hear the first reviews and builds
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                        I have to agree with Devian here. I've been an avid xtracycle rider
                        for years and daily commuter with it. I waited around to hear the
                        first reviews and builds on the BD before committing to an "upgrade"
                        to the fully integrated long-tail concept. Having considered the long
                        term enjoyment I've gotten from my current set up with the minimal
                        maintenance and hassle, I've come around to the idea of purchasing and
                        building up a BD. I went to the LBS and placed a watch on when they
                        would become available.

                        Now I hear about the price hike and have to admit that it has dampened
                        my desire a bit. I may instead just opt for some long overdue
                        upgrades to the current set up and maybe buy new bags from xtracycle.

                        Jay
                        Eureka, CA

                        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Devian Gilbert wrote:
                        > > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybikes.com/surlyblog.html>
                        >
                        > I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles... for many
                        > people, the X is surely "good enough"!
                        >
                        > I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have to be
                        > loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain, based on
                        > how it's performed to date.
                        >
                        > Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a satisfied
                        > customer!
                        >
                        > Steve
                        >
                      • Devian Gilbert
                        Eureka? jay... i am desiring to relocate, and I want to move to Arcata. i plan on doing an AmTrak (bus) trip this month. initially i will be staying at the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                          Eureka?

                          jay... i am desiring to relocate, and I want to move to Arcata.
                          i plan on doing an AmTrak (bus) trip this month.  initially i will be staying at the KOA.

                          uhhh?? dude... we should met up... shake hands, say howdy...


                          peace...d

                          "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.

                          On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Jay wrote:

                          I have to agree with Devian here. I've been an avid xtracycle rider
                          for years and daily commuter with it. I waited around to hear the
                          first reviews and builds on the BD before committing to an "upgrade"
                          to the fully integrated long-tail concept. Having considered the long
                          term enjoyment I've gotten from my current set up with the minimal
                          maintenance and hassle, I've come around to the idea of purchasing and
                          building up a BD. I went to the LBS and placed a watch on when they
                          would become available.

                          Now I hear about the price hike and have to admit that it has dampened
                          my desire a bit. I may instead just opt for some long overdue
                          upgrades to the current set up and maybe buy new bags from xtracycle. 

                          Jay
                          Eureka, CA

                          --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Devian Gilbert wrote:
                          > > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybik es.com/surlyblog .html>
                          > 
                          > I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles.. . for many 
                          > people, the X is surely "good enough"!
                          > 
                          > I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have to be 
                          > loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain, based on 
                          > how it's performed to date.
                          > 
                          > Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a satisfied 
                          > customer!
                          > 
                          > Steve
                          >


                        • Drew
                          I like their products, I just think double dinging people now, so you don t have to do it later, then talking about it is lame. If you are going to raise your
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                            I like their products, I just think double dinging people now, so you don't have to do it later, then talking about it is lame. If you are going to raise your prices once, then call that the price and don't say we are raising twice now so we don't have to raise again later.
                            I would feel ripped off. That and changing the price on people when they've already put money down for one.
                            I've been  seriously thinking of a BD  and  think it's a  cool thing, but that stuff gives me pause.
                            Maybe I'll just get a new frame for the X I have.

                            --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Jay <jazzman562000@...> wrote:
                            From: Jay <jazzman562000@...>
                            Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Dummy news
                            To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:18 AM

                            I have to agree with Devian here. I've been an avid xtracycle rider
                            for years and daily commuter with it. I waited around to hear the
                            first reviews and builds on the BD before committing to an "upgrade"
                            to the fully integrated long-tail concept. Having considered the long
                            term enjoyment I've gotten from my current set up with the minimal
                            maintenance and hassle, I've come around to the idea of purchasing and
                            building up a BD. I went to the LBS and placed a watch on when they
                            would become available.

                            Now I hear about the price hike and have to admit that it has dampened
                            my desire a bit. I may instead just opt for some long overdue
                            upgrades to the current set up and maybe buy new bags from xtracycle.

                            Jay
                            Eureka, CA

                            --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Devian Gilbert wrote:
                            > > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybik es.com/surlyblog .html>
                            >
                            > I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles.. . for many
                            > people, the X is surely "good enough"!
                            >
                            > I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have to be
                            > loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain, based on
                            > how it's performed to date.
                            >
                            > Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a satisfied
                            > customer!
                            >
                            > Steve
                            >


                          • empire_rdr
                            - I don t think it s that big of a deal. Yeah I got mine already,but I see it from the industry side. We loose on profit margins all the time and we re just
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                              -


                              I don't think it's that big of a deal. Yeah I got mine already,but I
                              see it from the industry side. We loose on profit margins all the
                              time and we're just expected to deal with it, or get a new line. We
                              are selling bikes that were for 300 bucks last year are goin up again
                              for the second time in the past 6 months, and they are not available.
                              Surly frames have been the same price forever. They're raising prices
                              for a legitimate reason, our dollar sucks, not because they are
                              getting more popular. We have sold more Surlys this year than ever
                              before, becasue we can't get similar less expensive bikes, and a few
                              bucks isn't going to concern most people.













                              -- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Drew <shringara2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I like their products, I just think double dinging people now, so
                              you don't have to do it later, then talking about it is lame. If you
                              are going to raise your prices once, then call that the price and
                              don't say we are raising twice now so we don't have to raise again
                              later.
                              > I would feel ripped off. That and changing the price on people when
                              they've already put money down for one.
                              > I've been  seriously thinking of a BD  and  think it's a  cool
                              thing, but that stuff gives me pause.
                              > Maybe I'll just get a new frame for the X I have.
                              >
                              > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Jay <jazzman562000@...> wrote:
                              > From: Jay <jazzman562000@...>
                              > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Dummy news
                              > To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:18 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I have to agree with Devian here. I've been an avid
                              xtracycle rider
                              >
                              > for years and daily commuter with it. I waited around to hear the
                              >
                              > first reviews and builds on the BD before committing to an "upgrade"
                              >
                              > to the fully integrated long-tail concept. Having considered the
                              long
                              >
                              > term enjoyment I've gotten from my current set up with the minimal
                              >
                              > maintenance and hassle, I've come around to the idea of purchasing
                              and
                              >
                              > building up a BD. I went to the LBS and placed a watch on when they
                              >
                              > would become available.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Now I hear about the price hike and have to admit that it has
                              dampened
                              >
                              > my desire a bit. I may instead just opt for some long overdue
                              >
                              > upgrades to the current set up and maybe buy new bags from
                              xtracycle.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jay
                              >
                              > Eureka, CA
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Lange <steve@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Devian Gilbert wrote:
                              >
                              > > > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybik
                              es.com/surlyblog .html>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles.. . for
                              many
                              >
                              > > people, the X is surely "good enough"!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have
                              to be
                              >
                              > > loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain,
                              based on
                              >
                              > > how it's performed to date.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a
                              satisfied
                              >
                              > > customer!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Steve
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                            • tda0818
                              I agree with all of that (both Mark s comments and Morgan s), but I still think the person upthread has a very valid point (sorry I forgot your name, person
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 3, 2008
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                                I agree with all of that (both Mark's comments and Morgan's), but I
                                still think the person upthread has a very valid point (sorry I forgot
                                your name, person upthread): it *is* a bit hinky to charge a person
                                more for a bike they've already put a down payment on.

                                I understand it's not Surly's fault that inflation is happening. But
                                it's not the customer's fault that Surly didn't buy enough product to
                                meet demand. The customer's already having to "pay" a premium by
                                having to wait for Surly to get more product to market.

                                All that said, the customer's beef is really with the dealer, not
                                Surly. It's the dealer who said, in effect, "Okay, I'll take some of
                                your money now in exchange for this bike at this price, when we get
                                some more in." Surly, so far as I know, never offered any such down
                                payment program. It's the dealer who engaged in such a deal who
                                should eat the extra $200.

                                If promises were made (implicitly or explicitly), they should be kept.

                                -- urbino

                                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Garvey" <lazybee45@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Prices are going up across the board, for everything.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Yeah, what she said! Fuel prices alone are driving a bit of this.
                                My boss
                                > pays $4.50 a gallon for Diesel and we have to tack a fuel surcharge
                                on to
                                > our regular fees. Guess who pays this? Whoever is buying the carpet I
                                > carry. And anything you own, got there by truck. It USED to cost about
                                > $500 to fill my fuel tanks for a week, now it is closer to $1000.
                                (I only
                                > burn about 200 gallons a week) and this means that everything from
                                cars to
                                > corn flakes costs more to put on shelves. Call it what you want,
                                but costs
                                > are rising for everything. I remember (being an old fart) when you
                                could
                                > buy a really decent bicycle for about $200. a Schwinn Paramount
                                went for
                                > about $700 and that was unholy expensive! Now it is not uncommon to see
                                > $4000 bikes. My first new motorcycle cost less than that! So did
                                my first
                                > (and only) new car!
                                >
                                > Not that the BD at one large is a "good" thing. But I would rather
                                spend a
                                > bit more to keep people like surly in business honestly.
                                >
                                > Plus going into the whole fuel and transportation thing, Ships burn
                                Diesel
                                > also. Bikes come from china on big ships, so that cost is
                                higher...Wages
                                > for workers in China are going up now. Skilled workers can pretty
                                much name
                                > the price because EVERYONE wants skilled workers there.
                                >
                                > I don't want to go into a whole economics thing here, but that is what
                                > happens when you start exporting jobs...at first it works out well, but
                                > pretty soon, your exported jobs are costing more and you don't have
                                people
                                > at home to buy your goods because your "good jobs' are across the
                                sea and
                                > you are stuck with the transportation costs to boot!
                                >
                                > mark
                                >
                              • Mark Garvey
                                ... Ah, it is a no win situation for Surly! If they DON T tell people they are raising the price and spring it on them, they are bad guys. If they raise the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                  On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Drew <shringara2@...> wrote:

                                  I like their products, I just think double dinging people now, so you don't have to do it later, then talking about it is lame.

                                  Ah, it is a no win situation for Surly!  If they DON'T tell people they are raising the price and spring it on them, they are bad guys. If they raise the price and tell you about it, they are bad guys!   At least they are being honest about the situation and giving everyone a heads up.  I don't have a Surly at present.  But I either will buy an Instigator to put on my X or a BD at some point in the future.  I like a company that will at least be up front with the customers and not snivel around and hide the cost somehow.

                                  mark
                                • roberthodgestucker
                                  I d happily pay twice that if they were made in the USA. Robeight ... My boss ... on to ... carpet I ... about ... (I only ... cars to ... but costs ... could
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                    I'd happily pay twice that if they were made in the USA.

                                    Robeight


                                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Garvey" <lazybee45@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Prices are going up across the board, for everything.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Yeah, what she said! Fuel prices alone are driving a bit of this.
                                    My boss
                                    > pays $4.50 a gallon for Diesel and we have to tack a fuel surcharge
                                    on to
                                    > our regular fees. Guess who pays this? Whoever is buying the
                                    carpet I
                                    > carry. And anything you own, got there by truck. It USED to cost
                                    about
                                    > $500 to fill my fuel tanks for a week, now it is closer to $1000.
                                    (I only
                                    > burn about 200 gallons a week) and this means that everything from
                                    cars to
                                    > corn flakes costs more to put on shelves. Call it what you want,
                                    but costs
                                    > are rising for everything. I remember (being an old fart) when you
                                    could
                                    > buy a really decent bicycle for about $200. a Schwinn Paramount
                                    went for
                                    > about $700 and that was unholy expensive! Now it is not uncommon
                                    to see
                                    > $4000 bikes. My first new motorcycle cost less than that! So did
                                    my first
                                    > (and only) new car!
                                    >
                                    > Not that the BD at one large is a "good" thing. But I would rather
                                    spend a
                                    > bit more to keep people like surly in business honestly.
                                    >
                                    > Plus going into the whole fuel and transportation thing, Ships burn
                                    Diesel
                                    > also. Bikes come from china on big ships, so that cost is
                                    higher...Wages
                                    > for workers in China are going up now. Skilled workers can pretty
                                    much name
                                    > the price because EVERYONE wants skilled workers there.
                                    >
                                    > I don't want to go into a whole economics thing here, but that is
                                    what
                                    > happens when you start exporting jobs...at first it works out well,
                                    but
                                    > pretty soon, your exported jobs are costing more and you don't have
                                    people
                                    > at home to buy your goods because your "good jobs' are across the
                                    sea and
                                    > you are stuck with the transportation costs to boot!
                                    >
                                    > mark
                                    >
                                  • Vik
                                    I predict Surly will continue to sell out of every BD made in 2008 despite the price increase. The other thing we haven t talked about is the fact Xtracycle
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                      I predict Surly will continue to sell out of every BD made in 2008 despite the price increase. The other thing we haven't talked about is the fact Xtracycle may have to raise their prices as well as raw materials & transport costs go up.  Since the cost of an Instigator frame is going up the gap may well close a bit between the Instigator + Xtra and the BD.  

                                      Regardless I'm sure the interest in the BD has helped Xtracycle sell a lot of FreeRadical kits.  One of my friends bought an Xtracycle kit when she saw my BD...she wouldn't have spent the $$$ on a BD, but the whole cargo bike concept made a lot of sense to her when she saw me building my BD.  She was also able to reuse an old MTB that she wasn't riding any longer as a donor for her Xtracycle.

                                      safe riding,

                                      Vik
                                      www.vikram-banerjee.com
                                      www.thelazyrando.com
                                      www.viks-tikit.com
                                      www.viks-bigdummy.com




                                      On 3-Jul-08, at 10:01 AM, Victor Khong wrote:


                                      Given the price discrepancy between a Surly Instigator with Free Radical and a built-up Big Dummy, its easy to see how the market will choose.

                                      In fact, I think Xtracycle will make another huge batch of Free Radicals as I can't see demand tapering off.  The new pricing of the Big Dummy will reduce the number of people who can afford it while it makes more and more sense to re-purpose a dormant bike by fitting it with a Free Radical.   E.assist kits are abundant and relatively affordable extending the usefulness of the Xtracycle-bike in hills and headwinds or when under loads.

                                    • Vik
                                      Posting about the double increase was a poor PR move on Surly s part, but the idea behind it is fine. If you know you are going to make 1000 frames and your
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                        Posting about the double increase was a poor PR move on Surly's part, but the idea behind it is fine.  If you know you are going to make 1000 frames and your costs have gone up $200 on the first 500 and you expect another $100 increase on the second 500 it makes sense to raise the price once by $250.  I just wouldn't make a big deal about it to my customers.  If Surly had raised the price of the BD twice in the next 12 months people would bitch them out for that as well.  They should have just raised the price and said we won't be raising prices again until the start of 2010.

                                        safe riding,


                                        Vik
                                        www.vikram-banerjee.com
                                        www.thelazyrando.com
                                        www.viks-tikit.com
                                        www.viks-bigdummy.com




                                        On 3-Jul-08, at 11:40 AM, Drew wrote:



                                        I like their products, I just think double dinging people now, so you don't have to do it later, then talking about it is lame. If you are going to raise your prices once, then call that the price and don't say we are raising twice now so we don't have to raise again later. 
                                        I would feel ripped off. That and changing the price on people when they've already put money down for one. 
                                        I've been  seriously thinking of a BD  and  think it's a  cool thing, but that stuff gives me pause. 
                                        Maybe I'll just get a new frame for the X I have. 

                                        --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Jay <jazzman562000@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                        From: Jay <jazzman562000@ yahoo.com>
                                        Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Dummy news
                                        To: rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:18 AM

                                        I have to agree with Devian here. I've been an avid xtracycle rider
                                        for years and daily commuter with it. I waited around to hear the
                                        first reviews and builds on the BD before committing to an "upgrade"
                                        to the fully integrated long-tail concept. Having considered the long
                                        term enjoyment I've gotten from my current set up with the minimal
                                        maintenance and hassle, I've come around to the idea of purchasing and
                                        building up a BD. I went to the LBS and placed a watch on when they
                                        would become available.

                                        Now I hear about the price hike and have to admit that it has dampened
                                        my desire a bit. I may instead just opt for some long overdue
                                        upgrades to the current set up and maybe buy new bags from xtracycle. 

                                        Jay
                                        Eureka, CA

                                        --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Devian Gilbert wrote:
                                        > > from the Surly Blog. <http://www.surlybik es.com/surlyblog .html>
                                        > 
                                        > I see this as clearly helping the market for Xtracycles.. . for many 
                                        > people, the X is surely "good enough"!
                                        > 
                                        > I know mine is making me very satisfied so far, it'll really have to be 
                                        > loaded up a lot before I'm going to have reason to complain, based on 
                                        > how it's performed to date.
                                        > 
                                        > Maybe I'm easily impressed... hard to say. But definitely a satisfied 
                                        > customer!
                                        > 
                                        > Steve
                                        >




                                      • Vik
                                        Your paragraph is the key. Surly didn t take anyone s money on the next batch of BD frames at a certain price and then change the price after making a deal.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                          Your paragraph is the key.  Surly didn't take anyone's money on the next batch of BD frames at a certain price and then change the price after making a deal.  The LBS are the ones that did that so it isn't fair to ask Surly to honor a deal they didn't & wouldn't have made.  As long as a customer can get his deposit back and buy something else I don't see any problem with what happened.  Costs go up & prices change. Perhaps the LBS shoudl have made it clear that they couldn't guarantee the price, but they were just acting in good faith making sure people that wanted BDs got them.

                                          Nobody did anything wrong here IMO,

                                          safe riding,

                                          Vik
                                          www.vikram-banerjee.com
                                          www.thelazyrando.com
                                          www.viks-tikit.com
                                          www.viks-bigdummy.com



                                          On 3-Jul-08, at 5:10 PM, tda0818 wrote:

                                          I agree with all of that (both Mark's comments and Morgan's), but I
                                          still think the person upthread has a very valid point (sorry I forgot
                                          your name, person upthread): it *is* a bit hinky to charge a person
                                          more for a bike they've already put a down payment on.

                                          I understand it's not Surly's fault that inflation is happening. But
                                          it's not the customer's fault that Surly didn't buy enough product to
                                          meet demand. The customer's already having to "pay" a premium by
                                          having to wait for Surly to get more product to market.

                                          All that said, the customer's beef is really with the dealer, not
                                          Surly. It's the dealer who said, in effect, "Okay, I'll take some of
                                          your money now in exchange for this bike at this price, when we get
                                          some more in." Surly, so far as I know, never offered any such down
                                          payment program. It's the dealer who engaged in such a deal who
                                          should eat the extra $200. 

                                          If promises were made (implicitly or explicitly), they should be kept.

                                          -- urbino


                                        • Vik
                                          There are US frame builders who would be more than happy to build you a BD style cargo bike if you are cool with accepting the costs of domestic small scale
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                            There are US frame builders who would be more than happy to build you a BD style cargo bike if you are cool with accepting the costs of domestic small scale production.  You'd be able to customize it and get a very unique ride.

                                            safe riding,

                                            Vik
                                            www.vikram-banerjee.com
                                            www.thelazyrando.com
                                            www.viks-tikit.com
                                            www.viks-bigdummy.com




                                            On 4-Jul-08, at 6:54 AM, roberthodgestucker wrote:

                                            I'd happily pay twice that if they were made in the USA.

                                            Robeight

                                            --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Garvey" <lazybee45@. ..> 
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@... > wrote:
                                            > 
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Prices are going up across the board, for everything.
                                            > >
                                            > 
                                            > Yeah, what she said! Fuel prices alone are driving a bit of this. 
                                            My boss
                                            > pays $4.50 a gallon for Diesel and we have to tack a fuel surcharge 
                                            on to
                                            > our regular fees. Guess who pays this? Whoever is buying the 
                                            carpet I
                                            > carry. And anything you own, got there by truck. It USED to cost 
                                            about
                                            > $500 to fill my fuel tanks for a week, now it is closer to $1000. 
                                            (I only
                                            > burn about 200 gallons a week) and this means that everything from 
                                            cars to
                                            > corn flakes costs more to put on shelves. Call it what you want, 
                                            but costs
                                            > are rising for everything. I remember (being an old fart) when you 
                                            could
                                            > buy a really decent bicycle for about $200. a Schwinn Paramount 
                                            went for
                                            > about $700 and that was unholy expensive! Now it is not uncommon 
                                            to see
                                            > $4000 bikes. My first new motorcycle cost less than that! So did 
                                            my first
                                            > (and only) new car!
                                            > 
                                            > Not that the BD at one large is a "good" thing. But I would rather 
                                            spend a
                                            > bit more to keep people like surly in business honestly.
                                            > 
                                            > Plus going into the whole fuel and transportation thing, Ships burn 
                                            Diesel
                                            > also. Bikes come from china on big ships, so that cost is 
                                            higher...Wages
                                            > for workers in China are going up now. Skilled workers can pretty 
                                            much name
                                            > the price because EVERYONE wants skilled workers there.
                                            > 
                                            > I don't want to go into a whole economics thing here, but that is 
                                            what
                                            > happens when you start exporting jobs...at first it works out well, 
                                            but
                                            > pretty soon, your exported jobs are costing more and you don't have 
                                            people
                                            > at home to buy your goods because your "good jobs' are across the 
                                            sea and
                                            > you are stuck with the transportation costs to boot!
                                            > 
                                            > mark
                                            >


                                          • Tim Lupfer
                                            MSRP on an Instigator frame is $410 MSRP on an Instigator fork is $100 A freeradical kit will be nearer $500 for the next batch That s $1010. A Big Dummy with
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                              MSRP on an Instigator frame is $410
                                              MSRP on an Instigator fork is $100
                                              A freeradical kit will be nearer $500 for the next batch

                                              That's $1010. A Big Dummy with bags will probably be somewhere around
                                              $1300-$1350. Having ridden both, I'd gladly pay twice the difference.

                                              I think where the freeradical really shines is in its ability to
                                              reinvent old frames. My favorite setup was with an 80's Ross mountain
                                              bike that I pulled out of the dumpster. It rode much better than the
                                              Instigator, and at $500 versus $1300 the cost argument is more
                                              compelling.

                                              On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Victor Khong <victorkhong@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Given the price discrepancy between a Surly Instigator with Free Radical and a built-up Big Dummy, its easy to see how the market will choose.
                                              >
                                            • Morgan
                                              I actually agree with you that this is the dealer s fault for promising this to the customer at a certain price. I don t think this is Surly s fault. We made
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                I actually agree with you that this is the dealer's fault for
                                                promising this to the customer at a certain price. I don't think this
                                                is Surly's fault.

                                                We made a similar mistake with our electric bicycles - we initially
                                                took orders and payments for them at a certain price. Our own price
                                                for getting them here went up. However, we could not pass that onto
                                                the customers who pre-ordered, because that would be unethical, so we
                                                made very little margin on those bikes. That's the cost of our mistake.

                                                The lesson we learned from that is that we are happy to make a waiting
                                                list for items in demand, but unless the product availability and
                                                pricing is imminently known, we will not take someone's money for it.

                                                So, I'd suggest the folks who paid a deposit for a BD at a certain
                                                price, should have a serious chat with their dealer.

                                                Morgan
                                                cycle9.com
                                                Chapel Hill, NC


                                                > Posted by: "tda0818" tda0818@... tda0818Thu Jul 3, 2008 4:10
                                                > pm (PDT)
                                                > I agree with all of that (both Mark's comments and Morgan's), but I
                                                > still think the person upthread has a very valid point (sorry I forgot
                                                > your name, person upthread): it *is* a bit hinky to charge a person
                                                > more for a bike they've already put a down payment on.
                                                >
                                                > I understand it's not Surly's fault that inflation is happening. But
                                                > it's not the customer's fault that Surly didn't buy enough product to
                                                > meet demand. The customer's already having to "pay" a premium by
                                                > having to wait for Surly to get more product to market.
                                                >
                                                > All that said, the customer's beef is really with the dealer, not
                                                > Surly. It's the dealer who said, in effect, "Okay, I'll take some of
                                                > your money now in exchange for this bike at this price, when we get
                                                > some more in." Surly, so far as I know, never offered any such down
                                                > payment program. It's the dealer who engaged in such a deal who
                                                > should eat the extra $200.
                                                >
                                                > If promises were made (implicitly or explicitly), they should be kept.
                                                >
                                                > -- urbino
                                              • Vik
                                                Morgan, I think it s very nice of you to have honoured your quoted price to the customer. but I don t think it would have been unethical to let them know
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                  Morgan,

                                                  I think it's very nice of you to have honoured your quoted price to the customer. but I don't think it would have been unethical to let them know prices went up and offer them a full refund of their deposit or ask them to pay the cost increase if they wanted to buy the bike.

                                                  safe riding

                                                  Vik
                                                  www.vikram-banerjee.com
                                                  www.thelazyrando.com
                                                  www.viks-tikit.com
                                                  www.viks-bigdummy.com



                                                  On 4-Jul-08, at 8:47 AM, Morgan wrote:

                                                  I actually agree with you that this is the dealer's fault for 
                                                  promising this to the customer at a certain price. I don't think this 
                                                  is Surly's fault.

                                                  We made a similar mistake with our electric bicycles - we initially 
                                                  took orders and payments for them at a certain price. Our own price 
                                                  for getting them here went up. However, we could not pass that onto 
                                                  the customers who pre-ordered, because that would be unethical, so we 
                                                  made very little margin on those bikes. That's the cost of our mistake.

                                                  The lesson we learned from that is that we are happy to make a waiting 
                                                  list for items in demand, but unless the product availability and 
                                                  pricing is imminently known, we will not take someone's money for it.

                                                  So, I'd suggest the folks who paid a deposit for a BD at a certain 
                                                  price, should have a serious chat with their dealer.

                                                  Morgan
                                                  cycle9.com
                                                  Chapel Hill, NC.

                                                   

                                                • Bruce Alan Wilson
                                                  My contacts at Xtracycle indicate that they are working with some other bicycle companies besides Surly to produce Xtracycle-accesory-compatable longtails.
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                    Re: Dummy news

                                                    My contacts at Xtracycle indicate that they are working with some other bicycle companies besides Surly to produce Xtracycle-accesory-compatable longtails.  Ultimately they want to have them in all price ranges.

                                                    Bruce Alan Wilson

                                                    "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

                                                  • Anne Littlebird
                                                    That would be great Bruce because as it stands right now I can t afford the Big Dummy setup. And this will not be the last increase in price. My MTB still has
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                      That would be great Bruce because as it stands right now I can't afford
                                                      the Big Dummy setup. And this will not be the last increase in price.

                                                      My MTB still has a lot of life in it so I won't change until I really
                                                      need to. But I had started to save. Right now the BD is more than my
                                                      motorcycle cost me.

                                                      On a different note since it's a crummy day out I took the bike out and
                                                      washed it down, took the freeloaders apart to wash and dry and I was
                                                      really shocked at the amount of rust I'm seeing. I've had the X on since
                                                      September and yes I've ridden in all weathers but still I obviously
                                                      didn't prepare enough. I have some work to do.

                                                      All new X owners beware that you really need to get anti rust lube down
                                                      in those tubes. Do it first thing and stay on it. I thought I was
                                                      prepared - guess not.

                                                      Bruce Alan Wilson wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > My contacts at Xtracycle indicate that they are working with some
                                                      > other bicycle companies besides Surly to produce
                                                      > Xtracycle-accesory-compatable longtails. Ultimately they want to have
                                                      > them in all price ranges.
                                                      >
                                                      > Bruce Alan Wilson
                                                      >
                                                      > "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other
                                                      > forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle
                                                      > remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • Bruce Alan Wilson
                                                      Anent rust, that is my main quarrel with the X design. The X people live in a semi-desert area, as I understand it, where they get very little precipitation.
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                        Re: Dummy news

                                                        Anent rust, that is my main quarrel with the X design.  The X people live in a semi-desert area, as I understand it, where they get very little precipitation.  Those of us who live in damper climates discover that there are problems with the X and moisture.

                                                        Bruce Alan Wilson

                                                        "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

                                                      • Anne Littlebird
                                                        Well I thought I was staying on top of it and apparently wasn t. 9 months later to have that much rust is a little disheartening. Once a month I need to take
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                          Well I thought I was staying on top of it and apparently wasn't. 9
                                                          months later to have that much rust is a little disheartening. Once a
                                                          month I need to take it apart and relube.

                                                          First of the month change the battery in the smoke detector and lube the
                                                          X. That works.

                                                          Comes home on a day like today - steady rain all day and now it's a
                                                          deluge. Supposed to be like this all weekend.

                                                          Anne Littlebird
                                                          Issumatuq Herbals
                                                          P.O. Box 5161
                                                          Louisville, KY 40255
                                                          502-418-1023



                                                          Bruce Alan Wilson wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Anent rust, that is my main quarrel with the X design. The X people
                                                          > live in a semi-desert area, as I understand it, where they get very
                                                          > little precipitation. Those of us who live in damper climates discover
                                                          > that there are problems with the X and moisture.
                                                          >
                                                          > Bruce Alan Wilson
                                                          >
                                                          > "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other
                                                          > forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle
                                                          > remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • Ian E. Hopper
                                                          Ummm... no. North San Juan (current main office of Xtracycle)is hot in the summer, but they get snow and rain in the winter. They ride year round and are well
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                                            Ummm... no. North San Juan (current main office of Xtracycle)is hot in
                                                            the summer, but they get snow and rain in the winter. They ride year
                                                            round and are well acquainted with rust. Sorry Bruce.

                                                            Steel's only real downfall is that it rusts: that's why they paint the
                                                            outside. For the inside, you treat it with rust inhibitor.

                                                            There hasn't been a lot of discussion about this in a while, but those
                                                            of y'all you've recently purchased a Big Dummy or Xtracycle conversion
                                                            should know that the FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO IS RUST TREAT THE
                                                            INSIDE OF THE FRAME! You LBS might do it for you.. they'll charge you
                                                            the labor though. Frame Saver (or Boiled Linseed Oil) are the two most
                                                            common items for this. You can also use engine fogging spray I'm told,
                                                            but I have no experience with it. I've also been told you can use
                                                            Boeshield T-9, but IMO, it's not viscous enough when it comes out of
                                                            the can. The full name for Frame Saver is J.P Weigle Frame Saver: type
                                                            in "J P Weigle Frame Saver" in google and you'll get a plethora of
                                                            places you can buy it from if you LBS doesn't sell it: if they don't,
                                                            raise hell and give em a proper dress down!

                                                            A little rust isn't going to kill your bike, but it WILL eventually
                                                            rust through. It tends to spread as well, so nip it in the butt!

                                                            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson"
                                                            <bawilson@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Anent rust, that is my main quarrel with the X design. The X people
                                                            live in a
                                                            > semi-desert area, as I understand it, where they get very little
                                                            precipitation.
                                                            > Those of us who live in damper climates discover that there are
                                                            problems with
                                                            > the X and moisture.
                                                            >
                                                            > Bruce Alan Wilson
                                                            >
                                                            > "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other
                                                            forms of
                                                            > transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in
                                                            > heart."--Iris Murdoch
                                                            >
                                                          • phaedrus
                                                            ... In numerous businesses, combining a current and known future price increase into a single price increase like this is pretty normal because doing an
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jul 7, 2008
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                                                              On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Vik <threeohm@...> wrote:
                                                              > Posting about the double increase was a poor PR move on Surly's part, but
                                                              > the idea behind it is fine.

                                                              In numerous businesses, combining a current and known future price
                                                              increase into a single price increase like this is pretty normal
                                                              because doing an increase with another one following quickly on its
                                                              heels really tends to get under people's skin - they may eat it once
                                                              or twice, but they tend to start looking for another place to be the
                                                              place they do regular business with. It tends to be a "if its gone up
                                                              twice this fast, it'll probably go up again tomorrow - I can't count
                                                              on them so I'm going to look elsewhere" sort of thing. Probably less
                                                              of an issue in product related businesses than in the service related
                                                              businesses I've had more interaction with, although, with products,
                                                              you've got to also consider that when you change your price, you've
                                                              got to update every bit of marketing material and so does everyone
                                                              down the chain who handles your products. Additionally everyone who
                                                              sells anything based on your product has to then adjust their prices.
                                                              Its being a lot nicer to those middle-people to do it less often.

                                                              As far as saying they were doing it being poor PR, I've got mixed
                                                              feelings about it. I can see how the people who were going to be in
                                                              (or thought they were going to be in) that middle batch feel like
                                                              they're paying more than they should have to but I rather respect
                                                              Surly for having a somewhat greater degree of transparency on their
                                                              decision making than many other companies would have. It makes me
                                                              more likely to buy from them in the future rather than less. Unless
                                                              they're very different from other businesses I've worked with, they
                                                              hated having to raise their price and talking about it on their blog
                                                              was probably partially a way to vent some of the frustration as well
                                                              as explain to people why they did it.

                                                              They certainly didn't do anything unethical - they didn't take
                                                              anyone's money and, given that QBP won't let bike shops pre-order
                                                              anything until its actually priced and in stock, its a gamble for any
                                                              bike shop to guarantee a price or even availability. If someone put
                                                              down their money, its the bike shop that took it, not Surly.

                                                              As far as the actual amount of the increase, it is less than 10% of
                                                              even a fairly basic Big Dummy build out. Compared to the jump in price
                                                              on the German parts for my gen-1 BD between when I spec'd it and when
                                                              the frame was available to actually build out, its not much at all -
                                                              my bike ended up running nearly a grand over what I'd been planning on
                                                              when I'd spec'd it after they announced the Big Dummy was going to be
                                                              made.

                                                              Here's something to consider - if $150 is the difference between
                                                              building one out and not, I think one can get much more bike for their
                                                              money by building up an xtracycle with better components than a BD
                                                              with the cheapest stuff they can put on it - especially if carrying
                                                              more than 60 - 100lbs of cargo is uncommon. Putting the money into
                                                              the wheelset, the bearings, the crankset and pedals, the brakes, the
                                                              bars, the grips, the seat, some fenders, etc., will go a lot further
                                                              than just putting all the bike budget into the frame.

                                                              Either way, its going to get tougher for a while. The dollar's
                                                              hurting on a global level right now and one place it is showing is in
                                                              10 - 50% price increases on imported bike parts across the board.
                                                              Even domestic parts are leaping in price. I wish it weren't the case,
                                                              but there it is. The only silver lining is hopefully this will
                                                              encourage more local and regional light industry as domestic and
                                                              international production and transportation costs start to reach more
                                                              towards parity. I love my Dummy, but I do wish it hadn't had to
                                                              travel halfway around the world to get to me.

                                                              In any case, having been up and down the economic ladder a number of
                                                              times now, when I've got a bit of spare money, I've started using some
                                                              of it to invest in tools and storable wear-and-tear replacement parts
                                                              for my bikes in case I can't afford to buy them when I actually need
                                                              them. I hope to eventually have backups of every gear, sprocket,
                                                              bearing, chain, etc. I might need. I'm too socially inclined to be a
                                                              proper survivalist and move out of the city and into a bunker, but it
                                                              seems foolish not to save a bit for a rainy day, especially when there
                                                              appear to be storms on the horizon.

                                                              - phaedrus
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