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Gas prices and Xtracycling

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  • matt7john
    A while back we were talking about gas prices and Xtracycling and someone threw out a survey that showed how more people would be willing to commute as gas
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 19, 2008
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      A while back we were talking about gas prices and Xtracycling and
      someone threw out a survey that showed how more people would be
      willing to commute as gas prices rose.

      Now it looks like that's playing out in reality:
      http://www.startribune.com/business/15752657.html

      And, news of the weird, remember not to get too freaked out about cars:
      http://www.startribune.com/local/15763067.html

      PS _ A bit of news that many of you likely already know: Surly's Big
      Dummy came out this week, though in limited numbers. It's a complete
      frame that accepts all Xtracycle components. It's made by
      Minneapolis-based Surly in partnership with Xtracycle.
    • Morgan Giddings
      I was recently having an email conversation with a local bicycle advocate (who just got elected to the league of american bicyclists board), and he was
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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        I was recently having an email conversation with a local bicycle advocate (who just got elected to the league of american bicyclists board), and he was lamenting the lack of support for bicycling infrastructure in the USA.  I made the point to him that I think it will change as gas prices rise, because the same thing happened in the 70' oil crunch (bicycling shot way up in popularity).  For whatever reason, he said he didn't think that would happen this time, and he essentially denied that gas prices cause more people to bike. But around my town, I see way more people biking in the winter this year than in previous years.  I think it is already happening, and will only happen more due to peak oil. 

        Want to get scared about our oil situation (or, feel good about riding your bike)?  Here's some reading:

        http://energytechstocks.com/wp/?p=819  (he posits gas prices > $10/gallon)
        http://www.shell.com/home/content/aboutshell-en/our_strategy/shell_global_scenarios/two_energy_futures/two_energy_futures_25012008.html (from Shell's president, who says the world will reach peak oil by 2015, less than 7 years from now!)

        And want to see the scenarios some people are cooking up in response to this?  How about a world with 4 billion cars? :

        I choked on that article.  A world with 4 billion cars?  That's not a world I want for my kids.  I just wish I could bike them safely around town!  I think it is ludicrous to keep doing "more of the same"... but I guess time will tell.

        Morgan



        A while back we were talking about gas prices and Xtracycling and
        someone threw out a survey that showed how more people would be
        willing to commute as gas prices rose.

        Now it looks like that's playing out in reality:
        http://www.startribune.com/business/15752657.html

        And, news of the weird, remember not to get too freaked out about cars:
        http://www.startribune.com/local/15763067.html

        PS _ A bit of news that many of you likely already know: Surly's Big
        Dummy came out this week, though in limited numbers. It's a complete
        frame that accepts all Xtracycle components. It's made by
        Minneapolis-based Surly in partnership with Xtracycle.

      • Phil Good-Elliott
        Act local. Get on your local planning commission and find out about new development. Insist on bicycle friendly roadways. Insist on bicycle friendly parking.
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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          Act local. Get on your local planning commission and find out about
          new development. Insist on bicycle friendly roadways. Insist on
          bicycle friendly parking. Get active with your local advocacy group
          and attend meetings. Speak up with helpful suggestions and questions
          about possibilities. I've been lucky enough to actually make a small
          difference in our small town. A group of activists is agitating for
          change and inclusion and the planning commission is starting to listen
          because the suggestions will improve quality of living spaces.

          -Phil

          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Morgan Giddings <mcgurme@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was recently having an email conversation with a local bicycle
          > advocate (who just got elected to the league of american bicyclists
          > board), and he was lamenting the lack of support for bicycling
          > infrastructure in the USA. I made the point to him that I think it
          > will change as gas prices rise, because the same thing happened in the
          > 70' oil crunch (bicycling shot way up in popularity). For whatever
          > reason, he said he didn't think that would happen this time, and he
          > essentially denied that gas prices cause more people to bike. But
          > around my town, I see way more people biking in the winter this year
          > than in previous years. I think it is already happening, and will
          > only happen more due to peak oil.
          >
          > Want to get scared about our oil situation (or, feel good about riding
          > your bike)? Here's some reading:
          >
          > http://energytechstocks.com/wp/?p=819 (he posits gas prices > $10/
          > gallon)
          > http://www.ameinfo.com/146155.html
          > http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3649
          >
          http://www.shell.com/home/content/aboutshell-en/our_strategy/shell_global_scenarios/two_energy_futures/two_energy_futures_25012008.html

          > (from Shell's president, who says the world will reach peak oil by
          > 2015, less than 7 years from now!)
          >
          > And want to see the scenarios some people are cooking up in response
          > to this? How about a world with 4 billion cars? :
          > http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3636
          >
          > I choked on that article. A world with 4 billion cars? That's not a
          > world I want for my kids. I just wish I could bike them safely around
          > town! I think it is ludicrous to keep doing "more of the same"... but
          > I guess time will tell.
          >
          > Morgan
          >
          >
          >
          > > A while back we were talking about gas prices and Xtracycling and
          > > someone threw out a survey that showed how more people would be
          > > willing to commute as gas prices rose.
          > >
          > > Now it looks like that's playing out in reality:
          > > http://www.startribune.com/business/15752657.html
          > >
          > > And, news of the weird, remember not to get too freaked out about
          > > cars:
          > > http://www.startribune.com/local/15763067.html
          > >
          > > PS _ A bit of news that many of you likely already know: Surly's Big
          > > Dummy came out this week, though in limited numbers. It's a complete
          > > frame that accepts all Xtracycle components. It's made by
          > > Minneapolis-based Surly in partnership with Xtracycle.
          > >
          >
        • Morgan
          Hi Phil, That s actually why we started a business. I figure that the best thing we could do locally was to get more people biking, which would then put more
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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            Hi Phil,
            That's actually why we started a business. I figure that the best thing we could do locally
            was to get more people biking, which would then put more pressure on the local politics
            to support bike friendly roadways. And when I talked to people who didn't bike, one of
            their biggest excuses (aside from fears of "safety") was the hills around here. This can be
            addressed with electric assist bikes. However, after realizing that none of the local bike
            shops are interested in carrying electric assist bikes, nor sports-utility/longtail bikes, we
            decided that if we made these available locally, that would be one less excuse for people
            not to ride. I hope we can have an impact that way, we're not doing this for the money
            (though it would be nice to at least get enough return to pay back the loan we had to take
            out!)

            Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too. Recently, I've taken to
            throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that clearly show that bicycling
            increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the prevalence of the biggest killer:
            heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about biking, anyway.

            Morgan




            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Good-Elliott" <poppamando@...> wrote:
            >
            > Act local. Get on your local planning commission and find out about
            > new development. Insist on bicycle friendly roadways. Insist on
            > bicycle friendly parking. Get active with your local advocacy group
            > and attend meetings. Speak up with helpful suggestions and questions
            > about possibilities. I've been lucky enough to actually make a small
            > difference in our small town. A group of activists is agitating for
            > change and inclusion and the planning commission is starting to listen
            > because the suggestions will improve quality of living spaces.
            >
            > -Phil
            >
            > ---
          • David Chase
            ... Do you have a pointer to that report? I d like to have a better reference than I heard that or Mayer Hillman said that . The way I phrase it is, that
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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              On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
              > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
              > Recently, I've taken to
              > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
              > clearly show that bicycling
              > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the prevalence
              > of the biggest killer:
              > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about biking,
              > anyway.
              >

              Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
              reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that". The way
              I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from heart
              attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."

              The safety issue is a biggie. Here near Boston, I was talking to a
              guy (a framebuilder, even) at a nearby bike store, who himself
              commutes to work by bike, and has all his life. After thinking about
              the traffic here (and this is a place where the traffic sucks so
              badly that we want out oldest son to learn to drive a car in Florida,
              not here), he said he decided not to hassle his kids about not riding
              their bikes so much. There seems to be some sort of bias against
              enforcing the traffic laws here -- speeding, ok, passing on the right
              in a (wide) two-lane road in a business area, ok, crossing the double-
              yellow, ok, rolling through stop, ok, running the no-longer-yellow,
              ok. Basically, people in cars, drive about as badly as people do on
              bikes -- 1 ton, 200 horsepower, bikes.

              How bad is it? When my previous car got very old, and we had a
              replacement (purchased from my in-laws) lined up, I decided to get
              serious about pedestrians and crosswalks. Toe in the crosswalk, I
              stop. I got rear-ended twice. There's a crosswalk between here and
              the elementary school, the police won't give us a crossing guard,
              because it's "too dangerous" for the policeman. I've poured coffee
              on non-stopping cars, another dad has egged them.

              Bizarrely, my bicycle commute is relatively sane. I am not sure
              why. The only problem I usually get is people cutting me off when
              they do a right turn at a shopping mall (which happens enough that is
              just part of the hazard list, like the misaligned storm grates, or
              the rumpled pavement, or the 2-into-1 uphill lane merge).

              David
            • Phil Good-Elliott
              Glad to see and hear of the bike activism! :-) -Phil
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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                Glad to see and hear of the bike activism! :-)

                -Phil

                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                >
                > On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
                > > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                > > Recently, I've taken to
                > > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
                > > clearly show that bicycling
                > > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the prevalence
                > > of the biggest killer:
                > > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about biking,
                > > anyway.
                > >
                >
                > Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
                > reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that". The way
                > I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from heart
                > attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."
                >
              • MH
                ... That sounds like a interesting report. I went to google it and heres one from Australia it seems: Pedalling Health c1996 PDF less than 500 Kb
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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                  > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                  > Recently, I've taken to throwing out the results of the
                  > "Pedalling Health" report, that clearly show that bicycling
                  > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the
                  > prevalence of the biggest killer: heart attacks. This works
                  > to get some people thinking about biking, anyway.
                  >
                  > Morgan


                  That sounds like a interesting report. I went to google it
                  and heres one from Australia it seems:

                  Pedalling Health c1996 PDF less than 500 Kb
                  http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf

                  I pedaled mostly year round for five years before my
                  stroke. Two weeks later a heart attack. I was looking
                  forward to going and a new adventure but the nurses &
                  doctors made me better. They did say that without my
                  cycling activity things could have been much worse.
                  -Mark
                • Morgan
                  Hi, The original pedaling health report is here: http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf A more concise distillation is provided by Ken Kifer,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 24, 2008
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                    Hi,
                    The original pedaling health report is here: http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf

                    A more concise distillation is provided by Ken Kifer, here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm

                    And, Ken Kifer has many other great pages on this, such as the tome "Is cycling
                    dangerous" where he studies both bike accident rates and deaths due to being sedentary,
                    here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

                    I've visited Boston and cycled around on several occasions. In my experience, it was like
                    any other big city, i.e. if one is predictable and defensive in biking, it's not too bad. I
                    actually feel more comfortable biking in a city like Boston (or London, or NYC) than on the
                    country highways here. An interesting tidbit: the biggest class of fatal injury to
                    experienced cyclists who are not doing one of the things that cause preventable accidents
                    (like biking on sidewalks and running lights), are being hit by inattentive drivers on rural
                    highways.

                    I think one big reason so many consider biking unsafe is because so many people bike
                    unsafely. They don't have to get any training or driver's license. A few weeks ago, I saw
                    this young woman on a mountain bike weaving around people, parking meters, and trees
                    down a busy sidewalk. From there she proceeded straight out across a busy 5-way
                    intersection (without waiting for the light) and had a close call with a car. Amazingly, even
                    accounting for the much higher accident rates that people such as her have, the statistics
                    show biking as relatively safe per mile travelled. Just imagine what the numbers would be
                    if people like her actually learned how to bike safely?

                    Morgan



                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
                    > > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                    > > Recently, I've taken to
                    > > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
                    > > clearly show that bicycling
                    > > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the prevalence
                    > > of the biggest killer:
                    > > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about biking,
                    > > anyway.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
                    > reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that". The way
                    > I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from heart
                    > attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."
                    >
                    > The safety issue is a biggie. Here near Boston, I was talking to a
                    > guy (a framebuilder, even) at a nearby bike store, who himself
                    > commutes to work by bike, and has all his life. After thinking about
                    > the traffic here (and this is a place where the traffic sucks so
                    > badly that we want out oldest son to learn to drive a car in Florida,
                    > not here), he said he decided not to hassle his kids about not riding
                    > their bikes so much. There seems to be some sort of bias against
                    > enforcing the traffic laws here -- speeding, ok, passing on the right
                    > in a (wide) two-lane road in a business area, ok, crossing the double-
                    > yellow, ok, rolling through stop, ok, running the no-longer-yellow,
                    > ok. Basically, people in cars, drive about as badly as people do on
                    > bikes -- 1 ton, 200 horsepower, bikes.
                    >
                    > How bad is it? When my previous car got very old, and we had a
                    > replacement (purchased from my in-laws) lined up, I decided to get
                    > serious about pedestrians and crosswalks. Toe in the crosswalk, I
                    > stop. I got rear-ended twice. There's a crosswalk between here and
                    > the elementary school, the police won't give us a crossing guard,
                    > because it's "too dangerous" for the policeman. I've poured coffee
                    > on non-stopping cars, another dad has egged them.
                    >
                    > Bizarrely, my bicycle commute is relatively sane. I am not sure
                    > why. The only problem I usually get is people cutting me off when
                    > they do a right turn at a shopping mall (which happens enough that is
                    > just part of the hazard list, like the misaligned storm grates, or
                    > the rumpled pavement, or the 2-into-1 uphill lane merge).
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                  • Sean Moore
                    Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle. Small brag, I ve even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son s mtn bike now. It s really
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 1, 2008
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                      Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle.  Small brag, I've even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's mtn bike now.  It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20 years.  I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one this weekend.  I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for $15/hr locally.  Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.

                      On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@...> wrote:

                      Hi,
                      The original pedaling health report is here: http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf

                      A more concise distillation is provided by Ken Kifer, here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm

                      And, Ken Kifer has many other great pages on this, such as the tome "Is cycling
                      dangerous" where he studies both bike accident rates and deaths due to being sedentary,
                      here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

                      I've visited Boston and cycled around on several occasions. In my experience, it was like
                      any other big city, i.e. if one is predictable and defensive in biking, it's not too bad. I
                      actually feel more comfortable biking in a city like Boston (or London, or NYC) than on the
                      country highways here. An interesting tidbit: the biggest class of fatal injury to
                      experienced cyclists who are not doing one of the things that cause preventable accidents
                      (like biking on sidewalks and running lights), are being hit by inattentive drivers on rural
                      highways.

                      I think one big reason so many consider biking unsafe is because so many people bike
                      unsafely. They don't have to get any training or driver's license. A few weeks ago, I saw
                      this young woman on a mountain bike weaving around people, parking meters, and trees
                      down a busy sidewalk. From there she proceeded straight out across a busy 5-way
                      intersection (without waiting for the light) and had a close call with a car. Amazingly, even
                      accounting for the much higher accident rates that people such as her have, the statistics
                      show biking as relatively safe per mile travelled. Just imagine what the numbers would be
                      if people like her actually learned how to bike safely?

                      Morgan



                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
                      > > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                      > > Recently, I've taken to
                      > > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
                      > > clearly show that bicycling
                      > > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the prevalence
                      > > of the biggest killer:
                      > > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about biking,
                      > > anyway.
                      > >
                      >
                      > Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
                      > reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that". The way
                      > I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from heart
                      > attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."
                      >
                      > The safety issue is a biggie. Here near Boston, I was talking to a
                      > guy (a framebuilder, even) at a nearby bike store, who himself
                      > commutes to work by bike, and has all his life. After thinking about
                      > the traffic here (and this is a place where the traffic sucks so
                      > badly that we want out oldest son to learn to drive a car in Florida,
                      > not here), he said he decided not to hassle his kids about not riding
                      > their bikes so much. There seems to be some sort of bias against
                      > enforcing the traffic laws here -- speeding, ok, passing on the right
                      > in a (wide) two-lane road in a business area, ok, crossing the double-
                      > yellow, ok, rolling through stop, ok, running the no-longer-yellow,
                      > ok. Basically, people in cars, drive about as badly as people do on
                      > bikes -- 1 ton, 200 horsepower, bikes.
                      >
                      > How bad is it? When my previous car got very old, and we had a
                      > replacement (purchased from my in-laws) lined up, I decided to get
                      > serious about pedestrians and crosswalks. Toe in the crosswalk, I
                      > stop. I got rear-ended twice. There's a crosswalk between here and
                      > the elementary school, the police won't give us a crossing guard,
                      > because it's "too dangerous" for the policeman. I've poured coffee
                      > on non-stopping cars, another dad has egged them.
                      >
                      > Bizarrely, my bicycle commute is relatively sane. I am not sure
                      > why. The only problem I usually get is people cutting me off when
                      > they do a right turn at a shopping mall (which happens enough that is
                      > just part of the hazard list, like the misaligned storm grates, or
                      > the rumpled pavement, or the 2-into-1 uphill lane merge).
                      >
                      > David
                      >




                      --
                      Sean Moore
                      moore.sean@...
                    • Anne Littlebird
                      Certainly the price of gas started me thinking about alternatives. Particularly since I m about $12.70/hour at this point. But I live 3 miles from work, can
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 1, 2008
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                        Certainly the price of gas started me thinking about alternatives.
                        Particularly since I'm about $12.70/hour at this point. But I live 3
                        miles from work, can walk to the grocery, post office and the coffee
                        shop. Office Depot and Borders are just 2 miles away and Target, Home
                        Depot about 4.

                        One of the reasons for staying in this apartment even though it costs me
                        one whole paycheck. But I'm also lucky in my landlord. He lets me have
                        my pets and has even offered me wireless internet access so I can save
                        the $45/month that I spend on that. He's been very supportive of the
                        bike and selling the car while also knowing he has a good tenant. That's
                        another reason for being here although I'd rather find something smaller
                        and cheaper.

                        If I hadn't gone back to cycling - with/without the X - my salary would
                        be toast with the increase just in food costs from the gas prices.

                        The lady buying my car just came by to finish the deal. She is excited
                        to have a good car and I'm just as excited not to have it anymore. I'm
                        over the moon! Must now go celebrate! Guess it's time to replace my ipod
                        that died several months ago...

                        Anne

                        Sean Moore wrote:
                        >
                        > Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle. Small brag, I've
                        > even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's mtn bike
                        > now. It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20
                        > years. I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one this
                        > weekend. I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic
                        > sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for $15/hr
                        > locally. Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.
                        >
                        > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@...
                        > <mailto:mcgurme@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        > The original pedaling health report is here:
                        > http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf
                        > <http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf>
                        >
                        > A more concise distillation is provided by Ken Kifer, here:
                        > http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm
                        > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm>
                        >
                        > And, Ken Kifer has many other great pages on this, such as the
                        > tome "Is cycling
                        > dangerous" where he studies both bike accident rates and deaths
                        > due to being sedentary,
                        > here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
                        > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm>
                        >
                        > I've visited Boston and cycled around on several occasions. In my
                        > experience, it was like
                        > any other big city, i.e. if one is predictable and defensive in
                        > biking, it's not too bad. I
                        > actually feel more comfortable biking in a city like Boston (or
                        > London, or NYC) than on the
                        > country highways here. An interesting tidbit: the biggest class of
                        > fatal injury to
                        > experienced cyclists who are not doing one of the things that
                        > cause preventable accidents
                        > (like biking on sidewalks and running lights), are being hit by
                        > inattentive drivers on rural
                        > highways.
                        >
                        > I think one big reason so many consider biking unsafe is because
                        > so many people bike
                        > unsafely. They don't have to get any training or driver's license.
                        > A few weeks ago, I saw
                        > this young woman on a mountain bike weaving around people, parking
                        > meters, and trees
                        > down a busy sidewalk. From there she proceeded straight out across
                        > a busy 5-way
                        > intersection (without waiting for the light) and had a close call
                        > with a car. Amazingly, even
                        > accounting for the much higher accident rates that people such as
                        > her have, the statistics
                        > show biking as relatively safe per mile travelled. Just imagine
                        > what the numbers would be
                        > if people like her actually learned how to bike safely?
                        >
                        > Morgan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:rootsradicals%40yahoogroups.com>, David Chase
                        > <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
                        > > > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                        > > > Recently, I've taken to
                        > > > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
                        > > > clearly show that bicycling
                        > > > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the
                        > prevalence
                        > > > of the biggest killer:
                        > > > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about
                        > biking,
                        > > > anyway.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
                        > > reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that". The way
                        > > I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from heart
                        > > attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."
                        > >
                        > > The safety issue is a biggie. Here near Boston, I was talking to a
                        > > guy (a framebuilder, even) at a nearby bike store, who himself
                        > > commutes to work by bike, and has all his life. After thinking
                        > about
                        > > the traffic here (and this is a place where the traffic sucks so
                        > > badly that we want out oldest son to learn to drive a car in
                        > Florida,
                        > > not here), he said he decided not to hassle his kids about not
                        > riding
                        > > their bikes so much. There seems to be some sort of bias against
                        > > enforcing the traffic laws here -- speeding, ok, passing on the
                        > right
                        > > in a (wide) two-lane road in a business area, ok, crossing the
                        > double-
                        > > yellow, ok, rolling through stop, ok, running the no-longer-yellow,
                        > > ok. Basically, people in cars, drive about as badly as people do on
                        > > bikes -- 1 ton, 200 horsepower, bikes.
                        > >
                        > > How bad is it? When my previous car got very old, and we had a
                        > > replacement (purchased from my in-laws) lined up, I decided to get
                        > > serious about pedestrians and crosswalks. Toe in the crosswalk, I
                        > > stop. I got rear-ended twice. There's a crosswalk between here and
                        > > the elementary school, the police won't give us a crossing guard,
                        > > because it's "too dangerous" for the policeman. I've poured coffee
                        > > on non-stopping cars, another dad has egged them.
                        > >
                        > > Bizarrely, my bicycle commute is relatively sane. I am not sure
                        > > why. The only problem I usually get is people cutting me off when
                        > > they do a right turn at a shopping mall (which happens enough
                        > that is
                        > > just part of the hazard list, like the misaligned storm grates, or
                        > > the rumpled pavement, or the 2-into-1 uphill lane merge).
                        > >
                        > > David
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Sean Moore
                        > moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean@...>
                        >
                      • Sean Moore
                        Oh yeah, I forgot to congratulate you on cutting the oil tether in your other thread. grats! I have a dream of becoming a one car household, my wife isn t a
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 1, 2008
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                          Oh yeah, I forgot to congratulate you on cutting the oil tether in your other thread.

                          'grats!  I have a dream of becoming a one car household, my wife isn't a strong athlete by any stretch of the imagination and I wouldn't want her out there with the cage drivers.  Me though, I've got the chutzpa to pull it off... I think.

                          I'm starting to wonder if I can find a manufacturing job that's fairly close, *or* maybe we could move into the city and out of these damn 'burbs.

                          My wife, bless her heart, suggested that I could be a courier in downtown Denver.  I thanked her but then admitted that I'm not nearly strong or young enough to consider that.

                          On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Anne Littlebird <issumatuq@...> wrote:

                          Certainly the price of gas started me thinking about alternatives.
                          Particularly since I'm about $12.70/hour at this point. But I live 3
                          miles from work, can walk to the grocery, post office and the coffee
                          shop. Office Depot and Borders are just 2 miles away and Target, Home
                          Depot about 4.

                          One of the reasons for staying in this apartment even though it costs me
                          one whole paycheck. But I'm also lucky in my landlord. He lets me have
                          my pets and has even offered me wireless internet access so I can save
                          the $45/month that I spend on that. He's been very supportive of the
                          bike and selling the car while also knowing he has a good tenant. That's
                          another reason for being here although I'd rather find something smaller
                          and cheaper.

                          If I hadn't gone back to cycling - with/without the X - my salary would
                          be toast with the increase just in food costs from the gas prices.

                          The lady buying my car just came by to finish the deal. She is excited
                          to have a good car and I'm just as excited not to have it anymore. I'm
                          over the moon! Must now go celebrate! Guess it's time to replace my ipod
                          that died several months ago...

                          Anne



                          Sean Moore wrote:
                          >
                          > Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle. Small brag, I've
                          > even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's mtn bike
                          > now. It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20
                          > years. I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one this
                          > weekend. I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic
                          > sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for $15/hr
                          > locally. Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.
                          >
                          > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Morgan <mcgurme@...
                          > <mailto:mcgurme@...>> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          > The original pedaling health report is here:
                          > http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf
                          > <http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf>
                          >
                          > A more concise distillation is provided by Ken Kifer, here:
                          > http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm
                          > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm>
                          >
                          > And, Ken Kifer has many other great pages on this, such as the
                          > tome "Is cycling
                          > dangerous" where he studies both bike accident rates and deaths
                          > due to being sedentary,
                          > here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
                          > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm>
                          >
                          > I've visited Boston and cycled around on several occasions. In my
                          > experience, it was like
                          > any other big city, i.e. if one is predictable and defensive in
                          > biking, it's not too bad. I
                          > actually feel more comfortable biking in a city like Boston (or
                          > London, or NYC) than on the
                          > country highways here. An interesting tidbit: the biggest class of
                          > fatal injury to
                          > experienced cyclists who are not doing one of the things that
                          > cause preventable accidents
                          > (like biking on sidewalks and running lights), are being hit by
                          > inattentive drivers on rural
                          > highways.
                          >
                          > I think one big reason so many consider biking unsafe is because
                          > so many people bike
                          > unsafely. They don't have to get any training or driver's license.
                          > A few weeks ago, I saw
                          > this young woman on a mountain bike weaving around people, parking
                          > meters, and trees
                          > down a busy sidewalk. From there she proceeded straight out across
                          > a busy 5-way
                          > intersection (without waiting for the light) and had a close call
                          > with a car. Amazingly, even
                          > accounting for the much higher accident rates that people such as
                          > her have, the statistics
                          > show biking as relatively safe per mile travelled. Just imagine
                          > what the numbers would be
                          > if people like her actually learned how to bike safely?
                          >
                          > Morgan
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:rootsradicals%40yahoogroups.com>, David Chase

                          > <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
                          > > > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                          > > > Recently, I've taken to
                          > > > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
                          > > > clearly show that bicycling
                          > > > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the
                          > prevalence
                          > > > of the biggest killer:
                          > > > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about
                          > biking,
                          > > > anyway.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
                          > > reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that". The way
                          > > I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from heart
                          > > attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."
                          > >
                          > > The safety issue is a biggie. Here near Boston, I was talking to a
                          > > guy (a framebuilder, even) at a nearby bike store, who himself
                          > > commutes to work by bike, and has all his life. After thinking
                          > about
                          > > the traffic here (and this is a place where the traffic sucks so
                          > > badly that we want out oldest son to learn to drive a car in
                          > Florida,
                          > > not here), he said he decided not to hassle his kids about not
                          > riding
                          > > their bikes so much. There seems to be some sort of bias against
                          > > enforcing the traffic laws here -- speeding, ok, passing on the
                          > right
                          > > in a (wide) two-lane road in a business area, ok, crossing the
                          > double-
                          > > yellow, ok, rolling through stop, ok, running the no-longer-yellow,
                          > > ok. Basically, people in cars, drive about as badly as people do on
                          > > bikes -- 1 ton, 200 horsepower, bikes.
                          > >
                          > > How bad is it? When my previous car got very old, and we had a
                          > > replacement (purchased from my in-laws) lined up, I decided to get
                          > > serious about pedestrians and crosswalks. Toe in the crosswalk, I
                          > > stop. I got rear-ended twice. There's a crosswalk between here and
                          > > the elementary school, the police won't give us a crossing guard,
                          > > because it's "too dangerous" for the policeman. I've poured coffee
                          > > on non-stopping cars, another dad has egged them.
                          > >
                          > > Bizarrely, my bicycle commute is relatively sane. I am not sure
                          > > why. The only problem I usually get is people cutting me off when
                          > > they do a right turn at a shopping mall (which happens enough
                          > that is
                          > > just part of the hazard list, like the misaligned storm grates, or
                          > > the rumpled pavement, or the 2-into-1 uphill lane merge).
                          > >
                          > > David
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Sean Moore
                          > moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean@...>
                          >



                          --
                          Sean Moore
                          moore.sean@...
                        • Juergen Weichert
                          To determine your actual hourly rate, calculate ALL automobile costs (ownership, insurance, maintenance, gas) and remove that from your annual income (after
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 1, 2008
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                            To determine your "actual" hourly rate, calculate ALL automobile costs
                            (ownership, insurance, maintenance, gas) and remove that from your
                            annual income (after tax, not before tax because you pay for car
                            expenses with after-tax dollars). Then figure out your annual hours
                            worked, and ADD your annual hours commuting. With those two figures
                            re-calculate your "equivalent" hourly rate.

                            When comparing with a closer job, do the same calculation but substitute
                            bicycle for car. Count your time as "recreation and exercise" instead of
                            "commuting" and you will find the actual hourly equivalent is similar,
                            while affording you a better quality of life (plenty of exercise and
                            fresh air, longer life span).

                            Juergen


                            Sean Moore wrote:
                            >
                            > Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle. Small brag, I've
                            > even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's mtn bike
                            > now. It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20
                            > years. I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one this
                            > weekend. I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic
                            > sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for $15/hr
                            > locally. Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.
                            >
                          • Sean Moore
                            Good points. My car is an older model and the costs have remained relatively fixed for the past 5 years, except the fuel. I m a gearhead so an engine rebuild
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 1, 2008
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                              Good points.  My car is an older model and the costs have remained relatively fixed for the past 5 years, except the fuel.  I'm a gearhead so an engine rebuild may cost me $500 and my time instead of the $2000+ it would take for a non mechanic who doesn't have the tools.

                              On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Juergen Weichert <juergen@...> wrote:

                              To determine your "actual" hourly rate, calculate ALL automobile costs
                              (ownership, insurance, maintenance, gas) and remove that from your
                              annual income (after tax, not before tax because you pay for car
                              expenses with after-tax dollars). Then figure out your annual hours
                              worked, and ADD your annual hours commuting. With those two figures
                              re-calculate your "equivalent" hourly rate.

                              When comparing with a closer job, do the same calculation but substitute
                              bicycle for car. Count your time as "recreation and exercise" instead of
                              "commuting" and you will find the actual hourly equivalent is similar,
                              while affording you a better quality of life (plenty of exercise and
                              fresh air, longer life span).

                              Juergen



                              Sean Moore wrote:
                              >
                              > Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle. Small brag, I've
                              > even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's mtn bike
                              > now. It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20
                              > years. I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one this
                              > weekend. I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic
                              > sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for $15/hr
                              > locally. Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.
                              >




                              --
                              Sean Moore
                              moore.sean@...
                            • Mark Garvey
                              ... Therre is a point that you might want to consider. OWNING a car, costs about $8000 per year. on average. this is based on AAA figures from about a year
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 1, 2008
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                                On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Sean Moore <moore.sean@...> wrote:
                                Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle.  Small brag, I've even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's mtn bike now.  It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20 years.  I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one this weekend.  I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for $15/hr locally.  Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.

                                Therre is a point that you might want to consider.  OWNING a car, costs about $8000 per year. on average.  this is based on AAA figures from about a year ago.   And if you drive over 10,000 miles a year the additional cost is somewhere around 50 or 60 cents a mile.  $ 8000 per year is ABOUT $4 per hour.  So you can take a job at $18.00 an hour without losing ANYTHING if you ditch the car.  2000 working hours per year average (much depends on costs and such!  My last car cost me $1!  yes ONE dollar.  But insurance is about $500 per year!  gas is about $5 a week  so my cost for THAT car is about $2000 per year, or $1 per hour

                                The thing to consider besides the raw cost is the health benefits and such.  I am the only guy at work who has not lost any sick time due to flu or other things.  I HAVE lost time due to a heart problem and kidney stones, but the bicycle made very little difference in either of those!  No bearing. 

                                If you can swing it, a bike is a better vehicle all around.  But it can be difficult at times!

                                mark
                              • Anne Littlebird
                                You know Sean, if your wife thinks you could be a bike courier then maybe it s worth thinking about. You are only as old as you make yourself - I still think
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 2, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You know Sean, if your wife thinks you could be a bike courier then
                                  maybe it's worth thinking about. You are only as old as you make
                                  yourself - I still think I'm 25. :) And if she believes then you've
                                  already got a head start on the cheering section. What have you got to lose?

                                  Strength can come with work. I've had to work at it. My sister on the
                                  other hand was the athlete - olympic quality. But now I can whip her
                                  butt. It makes her really mad - hopefully it will make her mad enough to
                                  get back in shape. She's 12 years younger and shouldn't be in the shape
                                  she's in. With the family risk of diabetes and heart disease I worry
                                  about her. But then she's a physician - what can I say.

                                  Anne

                                  Sean Moore wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Oh yeah, I forgot to congratulate you on cutting the oil tether in
                                  > your other thread.
                                  >
                                  > 'grats! I have a dream of becoming a one car household, my wife isn't
                                  > a strong athlete by any stretch of the imagination and I wouldn't want
                                  > her out there with the cage drivers. Me though, I've got the chutzpa
                                  > to pull it off... I think.
                                  >
                                  > I'm starting to wonder if I can find a manufacturing job that's fairly
                                  > close, *or* maybe we could move into the city and out of these damn
                                  > 'burbs.
                                  >
                                  > My wife, bless her heart, suggested that I could be a courier in
                                  > downtown Denver. I thanked her but then admitted that I'm not nearly
                                  > strong or young enough to consider that.
                                  >
                                  > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Anne Littlebird <issumatuq@...
                                  > <mailto:issumatuq@...>> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Certainly the price of gas started me thinking about alternatives.
                                  > Particularly since I'm about $12.70/hour at this point. But I live 3
                                  > miles from work, can walk to the grocery, post office and the coffee
                                  > shop. Office Depot and Borders are just 2 miles away and Target, Home
                                  > Depot about 4.
                                  >
                                  > One of the reasons for staying in this apartment even though it
                                  > costs me
                                  > one whole paycheck. But I'm also lucky in my landlord. He lets me
                                  > have
                                  > my pets and has even offered me wireless internet access so I can
                                  > save
                                  > the $45/month that I spend on that. He's been very supportive of the
                                  > bike and selling the car while also knowing he has a good tenant.
                                  > That's
                                  > another reason for being here although I'd rather find something
                                  > smaller
                                  > and cheaper.
                                  >
                                  > If I hadn't gone back to cycling - with/without the X - my salary
                                  > would
                                  > be toast with the increase just in food costs from the gas prices.
                                  >
                                  > The lady buying my car just came by to finish the deal. She is
                                  > excited
                                  > to have a good car and I'm just as excited not to have it anymore.
                                  > I'm
                                  > over the moon! Must now go celebrate! Guess it's time to replace
                                  > my ipod
                                  > that died several months ago...
                                  >
                                  > Anne
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sean Moore wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Gas prices are what interested me in the xtracycle. Small brag,
                                  > I've
                                  > > even made a few trips to the grocery store with my step son's
                                  > mtn bike
                                  > > now. It's really easy and I haven't been on a bike in about 20
                                  > > years. I'm leery about not having a helmet and will purchase one
                                  > this
                                  > > weekend. I'm wondering at what point gas prices would make economic
                                  > > sense for me to quit my trade job ($22/hr) and go to work for
                                  > $15/hr
                                  > > locally. Peak oil would do it, I'm sure.
                                  > >
                                  > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Morgan
                                  > <mcgurme@... <mailto:mcgurme%40alifelikewater.org>
                                  > > <mailto:mcgurme@...
                                  > <mailto:mcgurme%40alifelikewater.org>>> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi,
                                  > > The original pedaling health report is here:
                                  > > http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf
                                  > <http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf>
                                  > > <http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf
                                  > <http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/docs/cyhealth.pdf>>
                                  > >
                                  > > A more concise distillation is provided by Ken Kifer, here:
                                  > > http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm
                                  > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm>
                                  > > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm
                                  > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/pedal_h.htm>>
                                  > >
                                  > > And, Ken Kifer has many other great pages on this, such as the
                                  > > tome "Is cycling
                                  > > dangerous" where he studies both bike accident rates and deaths
                                  > > due to being sedentary,
                                  > > here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
                                  > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm>
                                  > > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
                                  > <http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm>>
                                  > >
                                  > > I've visited Boston and cycled around on several occasions. In my
                                  > > experience, it was like
                                  > > any other big city, i.e. if one is predictable and defensive in
                                  > > biking, it's not too bad. I
                                  > > actually feel more comfortable biking in a city like Boston (or
                                  > > London, or NYC) than on the
                                  > > country highways here. An interesting tidbit: the biggest class of
                                  > > fatal injury to
                                  > > experienced cyclists who are not doing one of the things that
                                  > > cause preventable accidents
                                  > > (like biking on sidewalks and running lights), are being hit by
                                  > > inattentive drivers on rural
                                  > > highways.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think one big reason so many consider biking unsafe is because
                                  > > so many people bike
                                  > > unsafely. They don't have to get any training or driver's license.
                                  > > A few weeks ago, I saw
                                  > > this young woman on a mountain bike weaving around people, parking
                                  > > meters, and trees
                                  > > down a busy sidewalk. From there she proceeded straight out across
                                  > > a busy 5-way
                                  > > intersection (without waiting for the light) and had a close call
                                  > > with a car. Amazingly, even
                                  > > accounting for the much higher accident rates that people such as
                                  > > her have, the statistics
                                  > > show biking as relatively safe per mile travelled. Just imagine
                                  > > what the numbers would be
                                  > > if people like her actually learned how to bike safely?
                                  > >
                                  > > Morgan
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:rootsradicals%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > <mailto:rootsradicals%40yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:rootsradicals%40yahoogroups.com>>, David Chase
                                  >
                                  > > <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 2008-02-24, at 3:30 PM, Morgan wrote:
                                  > > > > Anyway, there's always the "safety" thing people bring up too.
                                  > > > > Recently, I've taken to
                                  > > > > throwing out the results of the "Pedalling Health" report, that
                                  > > > > clearly show that bicycling
                                  > > > > increases lifespan/reduces death rates, by lowering the
                                  > > prevalence
                                  > > > > of the biggest killer:
                                  > > > > heart attacks. This works to get some people thinking about
                                  > > biking,
                                  > > > > anyway.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Do you have a pointer to that report? I'd like to have a better
                                  > > > reference than "I heard that" or "Mayer Hillman said that".
                                  > The way
                                  > > > I phrase it is, "that big steel cage doesn't protect you from
                                  > heart
                                  > > > attacks, and guess what's more likely to kill you."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The safety issue is a biggie. Here near Boston, I was talking to a
                                  > > > guy (a framebuilder, even) at a nearby bike store, who himself
                                  > > > commutes to work by bike, and has all his life. After thinking
                                  > > about
                                  > > > the traffic here (and this is a place where the traffic sucks so
                                  > > > badly that we want out oldest son to learn to drive a car in
                                  > > Florida,
                                  > > > not here), he said he decided not to hassle his kids about not
                                  > > riding
                                  > > > their bikes so much. There seems to be some sort of bias against
                                  > > > enforcing the traffic laws here -- speeding, ok, passing on the
                                  > > right
                                  > > > in a (wide) two-lane road in a business area, ok, crossing the
                                  > > double-
                                  > > > yellow, ok, rolling through stop, ok, running the
                                  > no-longer-yellow,
                                  > > > ok. Basically, people in cars, drive about as badly as people
                                  > do on
                                  > > > bikes -- 1 ton, 200 horsepower, bikes.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > How bad is it? When my previous car got very old, and we had a
                                  > > > replacement (purchased from my in-laws) lined up, I decided to get
                                  > > > serious about pedestrians and crosswalks. Toe in the crosswalk, I
                                  > > > stop. I got rear-ended twice. There's a crosswalk between here and
                                  > > > the elementary school, the police won't give us a crossing guard,
                                  > > > because it's "too dangerous" for the policeman. I've poured coffee
                                  > > > on non-stopping cars, another dad has egged them.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bizarrely, my bicycle commute is relatively sane. I am not sure
                                  > > > why. The only problem I usually get is people cutting me off when
                                  > > > they do a right turn at a shopping mall (which happens enough
                                  > > that is
                                  > > > just part of the hazard list, like the misaligned storm grates, or
                                  > > > the rumpled pavement, or the 2-into-1 uphill lane merge).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > David
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > Sean Moore
                                  > > moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean%40gmail.com>
                                  > <mailto:moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean%40gmail.com>>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Sean Moore
                                  > moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean@...>
                                  >
                                • Sean Moore
                                  ... 20 pounds and some coronary blockage, I suppose ;) Maybe I ll look into it. Of course it wouldn t be too much fun today... 3in of snow outside after
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 2, 2008
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                                    On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Anne Littlebird <issumatuq@...> wrote:

                                    What have you got to lose?






                                    20 pounds and some coronary blockage, I suppose ;)  Maybe I'll look into it.  Of course it wouldn't be too much fun today... 3in of snow outside after yesterday was 74F in my back yard.  I've never minded being wet though.


                                    --
                                    Sean Moore
                                    moore.sean@...
                                  • Tone
                                    Sean, After working as a professional messenger for several years in NY, I suggest not getting into the industry now. These days the internet has allowed much
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 2, 2008
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                                      Sean,

                                                  After working as a professional messenger for several years in NY, I suggest not getting into the industry now. These days the internet has allowed much of the “packages” pointless. Much of what was and might still be carried by messenger can now or will soon be sent on-line…. All those artist/model portfolios, floor-plans, legal documents, film/video reels, etc… basically anything media/text content can be sent over the internet. Cycling might be faster than any other vehicle in a major city and clients might like the idea of using a “green” method of transport… but the immediacy and cost effectiveness of the internet blows that all away.

                                                  That was one of the big reasons why I bought an Xtracycle. I could see the industry changing and strategically I figured with gas prices on the rise a cargo bike would make the most logistical sense. I could execute higher paying “car” jobs, but not have all the overhead of fuel, insurance, parking, and tickets. Still, with all of those positive reasons for being a cargo bike courier it was hard. I may have been one of the top paid messengers in my company (and possibly in NYC), but it was still pretty harsh and I was not getting any younger. In almost all courier scenarios the rider on the street has no insurance/medical coverage. Your health may be good from riding all day, but if you get in an accident you might get seriously screwed. On top of the lack of insurance/medical coverage almost all messengers work on a commission basis, so if you are out of work for any span of time you miss out on that money. Even if you return to work you might not recover to the same level of work you were doing before, which will result in less income.

                                                  I do not know of any couriers in this country, who have any decent retirement plan. Most messengers I knew practically lived from one pay check to the next, so saving money was almost unheard of. Forget about retirement, and if you have any kids, you might as well get a second job.

                                                  I apologize if I am knocking the courier industry. I obviously loved messengering since I did do it for the better part of ten years and almost all my friends still are or have been couriers, but it definitely is not a job for everyone. As it is, I moved from NYC to Pennsylvania and got into a completely different industry. I still bike to work every day, but that just seems logically the correct thing to do despite some of my coworkers joking with me about it. I guess I am just trying to put things in a possibly different perspective for you if you were really considering the messenger line of work. I hope it helps.

                                      _TONE_

                                       

                                    • Sean Moore
                                      Thanks, Tone. That s exactly what I read on some websites today. ... -- Sean Moore moore.sean@gmail.com Thanks, Tone. That s exactly what I read on some
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Mar 2, 2008
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                                        Thanks, Tone.  That's exactly what I read on some websites today.

                                        On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Tone <Tone@...> wrote:

                                        Sean,

                                                    After working as a professional messenger for several years in NY, I suggest not getting into the industry now. These days the internet has allowed much of the "packages" pointless. Much of what was and might still be carried by messenger can now or will soon be sent on-line…. All those artist/model portfolios, floor-plans, legal documents, film/video reels, etc… basically anything media/text content can be sent over the internet. Cycling might be faster than any other vehicle in a major city and clients might like the idea of using a "green" method of transport… but the immediacy and cost effectiveness of the internet blows that all away.

                                                    That was one of the big reasons why I bought an Xtracycle. I could see the industry changing and strategically I figured with gas prices on the rise a cargo bike would make the most logistical sense. I could execute higher paying "car" jobs, but not have all the overhead of fuel, insurance, parking, and tickets. Still, with all of those positive reasons for being a cargo bike courier it was hard. I may have been one of the top paid messengers in my company (and possibly in NYC), but it was still pretty harsh and I was not getting any younger. In almost all courier scenarios the rider on the street has no insurance/medical coverage. Your health may be good from riding all day, but if you get in an accident you might get seriously screwed. On top of the lack of insurance/medical coverage almost all messengers work on a commission basis, so if you are out of work for any span of time you miss out on that money. Even if you return to work you might not recover to the same level of work you were doing before, which will result in less income.

                                                    I do not know of any couriers in this country, who have any decent retirement plan. Most messengers I knew practically lived from one pay check to the next, so saving money was almost unheard of. Forget about retirement, and if you have any kids, you might as well get a second job.

                                                    I apologize if I am knocking the courier industry. I obviously loved messengering since I did do it for the better part of ten years and almost all my friends still are or have been couriers, but it definitely is not a job for everyone. As it is, I moved from NYC to Pennsylvania and got into a completely different industry. I still bike to work every day, but that just seems logically the correct thing to do despite some of my coworkers joking with me about it. I guess I am just trying to put things in a possibly different perspective for you if you were really considering the messenger line of work. I hope it helps.

                                        _TONE_

                                         




                                        --
                                        Sean Moore
                                        moore.sean@...
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