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Re: [rootsradicals] Re:on e-assist

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  • Mark Garvey
    OK, to answer a few questions. Not that I am the Velomobile Expert, but I have run the Midwest HPV and Velomobile Conference and workshop for two of the last
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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      OK, to answer a few questions.  Not that I am the Velomobile Expert, but I have run the Midwest HPV and Velomobile Conference and workshop for two of the last three years.

      On Jan 1, 2008 12:53 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman < caralinb@...> wrote:



      Those look hot--as in hot to operate.

      Uh, yeah.  the  Go One is flashy, but not MY choice.  the more practical ones are what is called "head out" like the Mango and Quest and Alleweder.  the driver is in something that looks like a vastly improved  soap box derby car.   the BEST of the head in versions are the Cab Bike, which is not as slick looking, but MUCH better from a practical standpoint.
       How are they ventilated and are
      they good enough for the soggy and steamy sub-tropics?

      Ventilation is through vents up front and air flow.  The open ones have fewer problems obviously.  (most have removable covers if you want them) the Cab Bike has a sliding windshield that retracts and both side windows come out and store in the cargo compartment.  the Go One has a removable canopy.  Leaving the windshield in place.  And No $10 K is a lot for THAT.  The others are slightly less.  But all are mostly made custom for each customer so will obviously cost more.  A hand build Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo too. Or even a Ford.
       
       Also, where are
      the windshield wipers and how well do they work in the rain?

      The only one with Wipers that I know of is the Cab Bike.  They (or IT) is a manual thing.  No more is really necessary.  An occasional siwpe is usually all you need.  Friends own 3 of them and I have ridden in them.  Nice in some ways, but a little cumbersome.

      Bumps and bunny hops.   OK, I have ridden Trikes a lot and the same applies.  Not all that much of an issue, but occasionally a problem.  MOST VMs have suspension.  yeah!  the Cab Bike has  McPhearson struts, so does the Alleweder and those are the only two I am completely (or more completely anyway) familiar with.  The Price on these is a function of production and rarity.  Several people have built bikes and trikes with bodies around them at considerably less expense.




      I really think a regular bike is best, even if I do sometimes look as
      though I just climbed out of the rinse cycle of a washing machine.

      OK, I agree that in MANY ways a standard bicycle has advantages over a Velomobile.  But the opposite applies as well.  for a commuter, you can have a vehicle that keeps you dry in wet weather and warm in cold weather.  Having storage area INSIDE is also a plus.   As a seperate function, VMs are FAST...VERY fast.  the  Cab Bike no. It is simply utilitarian and the VM equivalent of the X.   Mary and Dale had a display in 06 of  "what you can carry in ONE Cab bike."  Not as BIG as the X, but a LOT!  they had a HUGE pile of stuff!  They rode from their Hotel to the site (about 5 miles) in the Cab Bikes in one of the Midwest's Finest T storms and arrived dry and toasty.  Riding right up to and through the doors and into the conference area.  Dripping on the rug!  then proceeded to lift out picnic baskets, umbrellas, chairs sleeping bags, tent and a whole pile of stuff.  the Cab Bike is one BIG dry bag or hard shell suitcase.

      Speed. OK.  The best of the VMs is the Quest which was MADE for speed.   Easily can run 25-35 mph with no assist and with about the same effort as riding a standard bike at 15 mph or so.  VERY efficient.   the Mango is a slightly more practical version and slightly slower.  but a good rider can really make them move.  Same with a few others.  the aerodynamics are impressive.  I have attended the local HPV races here for the last two years and watched as the competitors circled a 1/2 mile track for long periods of time at a constant 40-50 mph using human power alone.  On a standard bike a 25 mile/1 hour time trial is a pretty difficult thing.  I saw a 73 year old guy do a 30-35 mph 1 hour time trial with no strain, and the Hot shots did well over 40 often hitting 50.   Highest speed achieved is 81. something.  the hour Record is a bit over 50 miles in one hour.  the hour record for teh electric racers teh high schools and colleges do is 45 miles.  think on that a moment!

      SO.  the question is not are they workable or practical, or even worth the money, but do YOU want one?  I do, I had experience with a couple of my own, an elderly PPV (1973) which is not particularly practical, but cool in a "Corvette Collector" way.  and a VeloKit which attaches to a standard Trike.  It had flaws, but it was practical and gave about 90% of teh same protection in Thunderstorms as the Cab bikes.  It is nice to be riding home from a gig in my working clothes (a Hawaiian shirt and straw hat) while a nasty storm rages and get annoyed because the window leaked and I got the sleeve of my shirt wet (dammit!)

      They are just a different approach.  Note WHICH one I am using NOW!   I decided that FOR MY PURPOSES a standard bicycle was more practical and all around useful.  I still have my PPV which will be part of my "collection" for as long as I can keep it.  But for 99% of my riding, my Xtracycle takes the prize.  It simply works.

      Oh, yeah, and bubble windshields over you....HOT WOW!  and heat builds up inside as you work too.  VENTILATION!  need it!

      Mary (Cab Bike)  reports that at ZERO she needs to pack her parka in the back of teh Cab Bike (Minneapolis) wear a light sweatshirt. Jump in, button up, hit the Garage door opener and pedal like crazy for about a quarter mile to warm up, then keep speed the rest of teh way to her clinic (she is a doctor)   She and Dale got the CBs because they were more practical and carried more groceries than their Surburban did (which they sold after getting the Cab Bikes)

      It is just another approach.

      mark


      I, too, sometimes dream of turn signals and brake lights.

      CL

    • Juergen Weichert
      I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now. There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes and certainly
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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        I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now.
        There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes
        and certainly extends the utility of any bike but especially cargo bikes.

        I feel that electric assist should supplement, not replace human power
        as the primary motive force on the bike. As others have noted there is
        no "need" for electric on a bike given sufficient health and bicycle
        gearing, and time. You can get up any grade with just about any load,
        albeit at a crawl in some cases. Electric levels the playing field
        allowing those with heavy loads (personal or cargo!) to make it up
        grades in decent time at decent (regular cruising) speeds. Electric
        should not be seen as a way to go faster, but rather easier and more
        frequently. Most laws concerning electric bikes limit top (assisted)
        speeds to 20mph or 32km/h here in Canada. (reasonable - this is a quick
        cruising speed for most cyclists).

        There are many systems out there and it is vitally important to work
        with someone who understands them and can guide you to the best system
        for your needs. I would be happy to comment further about the ones I
        have used if folks are interested.

        Juergen

        Juergen Weichert
        613-746-7685
        Acclivity Solutions
        www.acclivity.ca



        tda0818 wrote:
        >
        > Reading along with interest, back here. I more or less plan to go
        > e-assist sometime next year; probably in the spring, if the
        > StokeMonkey is available by then.
        >
        > Another step in my attempt to go carless. Summers here are long, HOT,
        > and sticky. If I'm really going to go carless, I've got to be able to
        > run errands on the way to work, or mid-day, without being an absolute
        > sweaty mess. Some e-assist should make that possible.
        >
        > As Morgan keeps saying, it just makes the bike a much more realistic
        > alternative to the car.
        >
        > --urbino
        >
        > -
        >
      • Juergen Weichert
        A friend of mine has a Go-One and has added electric assist. Wow - talk about a cruising machine! I am also working on a velomobile design of my own which will
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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          A friend of mine has a Go-One and has added electric assist. Wow - talk
          about a cruising machine!
          I am also working on a velomobile design of my own which will eventually
          have e-assist. http://www.acclivity.ca/velomobile/

          Electric is particularly well suited for velomobiles as they are heavier
          and need a bit of help getting up hills. On the flats they can go way
          fast under human power alone due to the awesome aerodynamics.

          There is a group list dedicated to velomobiles at
          http://www.phred.org/mailman/listinfo/velomobile

          Juergen

          p.s. climbing hills at 15mph IS amazing with e-assist.



          Devian Gilbert wrote:
          >
          > ahhh....
          >
          > motor vehicle travel is a privilege
          > funny how that is
          > but ironic how its such a pain, the cost alone is insane.
          > the complexity is crazy
          > and the zoom zoom, busy life that come about drive us to the cleaners.
          > well, for most people it does.
          > lol
          >
          > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one
          > velomobile. <http://www.go-one.us/Pictures_of_go-one3.html> wow!
          > what an awesome machine, then i started thinking, and really looking
          > at it, contemplating its "entry" angle, how it would /actually /work
          > in real life. when i ultimately decided to let the fantasy go. go
          > with the notion that suddenly a bicycle is being morphed into
          > something like a car. what? ya...suddenly i found that so many
          > people where interested in it because it resembled a car.
          >
          > and my heart would sink, and i'd toss the notion of bunny hoping a
          > curb, quick cable the bike to something close to the doorway, go
          > inside, grab a soda, newspaper, whatever, and split. about as fast as
          > a person could park their car, and walk in to the store.
          >
          > the freedom of the bicycle; is so often times threatened, and i'd
          > think to myself, "why would i want to start looking for a parking
          > space for my /bike./"
          >
          > but i will confess to the initial dangers of being fluid on a bike.
          > but once its a rhythm in your soul, it is difficult to let go of.
          >
          > e-assist...
          > i love the topic
          >
          > and yet lastnight, i was suddenly thinking of 15mph ascents! wow!
          > super human
          > ahh...
          >
          > peace...d
          >
        • Juergen Weichert
          I think bikes are like shoes - many great ones for all kinds of applications and not many that suit all. Imagine having only one pair of shoes? Tennis shoes,
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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            I think bikes are like shoes - many great ones for all kinds of
            applications and not many that suit all. Imagine having only one pair of
            shoes? Tennis shoes, running, dress, hiking, golf shoes, soccer cleats,
            walking shoes, regular winter boots, deep-show boots, ice crampons,
            snowshoes, sandals, flip-flops...endless.
            One bike is not enough and a dozen might be pushing the other end of the
            envelope. I think around 7 is close to the right number - one for each
            day of the week and choose for the day as you might choose your shoes.
            In my suggested list:
            - single speed for simplicity
            - MTB or hybrid or cruiser for general all-around use.
            - Xtracycle for cargo
            - recumbent for comfort
            - velomobile for speed
            - folding bike for convenience
            - tandem for company
            (- loaner bike for visitors?)

            Your choices will vary. Any further suggestions?

            Juergen



            Mark Garvey wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > On Dec 31, 2007 2:26 PM, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...
            > <mailto:asanacycles@...>> wrote:
            >
            >
            > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one
            > velomobile. <http://www.go-one.us/Pictures_of_go-one3.html> wow!
            > what an awesome machine,
            >
            >
            > Yeah! they are! So is the Mango, the Quest, the WAW and the Aurora
            > and several others. a couple that I know owns THREE Cab-Bikes and
            > tehre is a Leitra near me somewhere, as well as a Flevo Alleweder. I
            > am very interested in Velomobiles. But like you, I sort of became a
            > little frustrated with a couple of the problems. Size, weight,
            > expense, versitility...or lack thereof. GREAT in crappy weather
            > however! I had a VeloKit on a trike for a while and sold the trike.
            > THAT was cool on cold mornings I would have to stop and open the
            > windows to let myself cool down a bit! With the e-assist it was
            > really great, and riding to work getting caught in a T-storm was a non
            > event! No rain on ME!
            >
            > But you might notice that I am now riding a "wedgie" bike, with an
            > Xtracycle on it because I think it WORKS better for my use. It is
            > simply less cumbersome to work with and has more versatile uses. The
            > e-assist is STILL a good thing, but I am STILL waffling about it! It
            > has been on and off the bike at least a half dozen times. I take it
            > off because it bothers me to have that weight and complexity. I put
            > it back on because it really makes a difference in how the bike WORKS.
            > :::sigh::: so what is the answer?? who knows!
            >
            > mark
            >
          • Juergen Weichert
            Velomobiles are faster than just about anything else out there. Juergen
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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              Velomobiles are faster than just about anything else out there.
              Juergen

              tda0818 wrote:
              >
              > The Go-One is one sleek machine, alright, but $10,000? Ay, carumba!
              >
              > There's no way it provides 9 thousand dollars worth of value over an X
              > -- or even, say, $6k worth of value over a seriously tricked out road
              > bike or very nice recumbent. Does it do anything a normal bike can't
              > do? I don't see anything. I mean, I guess it'll keep the weather
              > off, but that's something, say, $500 worth of well-designed layering
              > will do, head to toe. What does the other $5.5k get you? (Not turn
              > signals, which should be mandatory on a rig like this. They're an
              > extra thousand bucks.)
              >
              > These questions aren't aimed at anybody here, btw. They're just me
              > thinking out loud, trying to figure out what the market is for a $10k
              > recumbent. ISTM they're banking entirely on the "cool" factor. I
              > don't get it. I guess not many people do; they say they've sold less
              > than 50 of them.
              >
              > --urbino
              >
            • tda0818
              I d be interested. --urbino ... bikes.
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                I'd be interested.

                --urbino


                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Juergen Weichert <juergen@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now.
                > There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes
                > and certainly extends the utility of any bike but especially cargo
                bikes.
                >
                > I feel that electric assist should supplement, not replace human power
                > as the primary motive force on the bike. As others have noted there is
                > no "need" for electric on a bike given sufficient health and bicycle
                > gearing, and time. You can get up any grade with just about any load,
                > albeit at a crawl in some cases. Electric levels the playing field
                > allowing those with heavy loads (personal or cargo!) to make it up
                > grades in decent time at decent (regular cruising) speeds. Electric
                > should not be seen as a way to go faster, but rather easier and more
                > frequently. Most laws concerning electric bikes limit top (assisted)
                > speeds to 20mph or 32km/h here in Canada. (reasonable - this is a quick
                > cruising speed for most cyclists).
                >
                > There are many systems out there and it is vitally important to work
                > with someone who understands them and can guide you to the best system
                > for your needs. I would be happy to comment further about the ones I
                > have used if folks are interested.
                >
                > Juergen
                >
                > Juergen Weichert
                > 613-746-7685
                > Acclivity Solutions
                > www.acclivity.ca
                >
              • David Eichelberger
                I second the motion. Love, Dave ... From: tda0818 To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:19 PM Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: on
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                  I second the motion.
                  Love,
                  Dave
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: tda0818
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:19 PM
                  Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: on e-assist

                  I'd be interested.

                  --urbino

                  --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Juergen Weichert <juergen@... >
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now.
                  > There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes
                  > and certainly extends the utility of any bike but especially cargo
                  bikes.
                  >
                  > I feel that electric assist should supplement, not replace human power
                  > as the primary motive force on the bike. As others have noted there is
                  > no "need" for electric on a bike given sufficient health and bicycle
                  > gearing, and time. You can get up any grade with just about any load,
                  > albeit at a crawl in some cases. Electric levels the playing field
                  > allowing those with heavy loads (personal or cargo!) to make it up
                  > grades in decent time at decent (regular cruising) speeds. Electric
                  > should not be seen as a way to go faster, but rather easier and more
                  > frequently. Most laws concerning electric bikes limit top (assisted)
                  > speeds to 20mph or 32km/h here in Canada. (reasonable - this is a quick
                  > cruising speed for most cyclists).
                  >
                  > There are many systems out there and it is vitally important to work
                  > with someone who understands them and can guide you to the best system
                  > for your needs. I would be happy to comment further about the ones I
                  > have used if folks are interested.
                  >
                  > Juergen
                  >
                  > Juergen Weichert
                  > 613-746-7685
                  > Acclivity Solutions
                  > www.acclivity. ca
                  >

                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... Read the Minonski book to learn the details, but specifically the Constitution protects the right of interstate travel. And, court cases have ruled that
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                    On Dec 31, 2007 11:12 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman <caralinb@...> wrote:
                    > > A fascinating book that delves into this is "Bicycling and the Law" by
                    > > Bob Minonski.


                    > > Bicycle travel is a Constitutional protected right,
                    > > motor vehicle travel is not.
                    >
                    > If this about bicycle travel as a protected constitutional right is
                    > true, then it ought to be broadcast widely. Too many cars think they
                    > own the road.

                    Read the Minonski book to learn the details, but specifically the
                    Constitution protects the right of interstate travel. And, court
                    cases have ruled that this is meaningless without also there being a
                    right of intrastate travel. And, considering that the right to drive
                    an automobile is revocable, (for instance, due to being underage, or
                    due to a conviction for drunk driving) then therefore the right to the
                    road for bicycles is constitutionally protected. This is legal
                    theory, Constitutional, that the lawyers use to contest (and win)
                    nearly every attempt by cities and states to pass laws to prohibit
                    bicycles on roads. To successfully prohibit bicycles from roads
                    requires a very compelling reason in the courts, and has largely
                    failed.

                    Also, most state law is based on the 'pre-automobile' origin of the US
                    Vehicle codes, designed primarily to regulate horse carriages, and
                    bicycles sharing the road. Essentially every state has a variation on
                    the law "bicycles have all the rights and duties" of the road as
                    vehicles clause.

                    Again, read the Minonski book, it is fascinating.
                  • tda0818
                    Mionske is the author s name, for anybody who s looking for the book.
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                      Mionske is the author's name, for anybody who's looking for the book.

                      http://www.amazon.com/Bicycling-Law-Your-Rights-Cyclist/dp/1931382999/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199249074&sr=1-1

                      --urbino


                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Again, read the Minonski book, it is fascinating.
                      >
                    • MH
                      Hi Juergen. Something I added to my list is a - chopper for sculptured beauty. I ve been looking at chopper cruisers for several years and just last week I
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 2, 2008
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                        Hi Juergen. Something I added to my list is a - chopper for sculptured
                        beauty. I've been looking at chopper cruisers for several years and
                        just last week I picked up a Christmas Special, a PhatCycles.com
                        Modified Stretch for half price at my local bike shop. Its a single
                        speed. I suppose that falls into the simplicity category. I went in
                        for a XtraCycle and couldn't pass up the deal. I plan on getting my X
                        cargo bike sometime when its warmer out. To satisfy my interest I've
                        been collecting some online photos for my home slide showing of the X at
                        work. I hope to put the X into overtime duty this summer doing some
                        trail building. -Mark


                        Juergen Weichert wrote:
                        > I think bikes are like shoes - many great ones for all kinds of
                        > applications and not many that suit all. Imagine having only one pair of
                        > shoes? Tennis shoes, running, dress, hiking, golf shoes, soccer cleats,
                        > walking shoes, regular winter boots, deep-show boots, ice crampons,
                        > snowshoes, sandals, flip-flops...endless.
                        > One bike is not enough and a dozen might be pushing the other end of the
                        > envelope. I think around 7 is close to the right number - one for each
                        > day of the week and choose for the day as you might choose your shoes.
                        > In my suggested list:
                        > - single speed for simplicity
                        > - MTB or hybrid or cruiser for general all-around use.
                        > - Xtracycle for cargo
                        > - recumbent for comfort
                        > - velomobile for speed
                        > - folding bike for convenience
                        > - tandem for company
                        > (- loaner bike for visitors?)
                        >
                        > Your choices will vary. Any further suggestions?
                        >
                        > Juergen
                        >
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