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  • Devian Gilbert
    for me, I d be VERY INTERESTED in E-assist i am very interested in the Stoke Monkey on the Big Dummy ultimately it would be great to have this all integrated.
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 29, 2007
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      for me, I'd be VERY INTERESTED in E-assist

      i am very interested in the Stoke Monkey on the Big Dummy

      ultimately it would be great to have this all integrated. a nice
      clean design. something that integrates lights of your choice, etc.
      solar is great, and i wish that one day some kind of generator/brake
      hub would come to market.

      lets hope that this kind of bicycle movement prompts the industry


      one of the big barriers that i see in the world of Transport are
      local laws.

      as far as i know
      while the Stoke Monkey assists via the cranks, therefore the rider
      cannot simply twist the "throttle", here in Cali its legal
      while something like BionX makes the bicycle a motorized vehicle.
      like a moped. therefore it produces a handful of legal barriers.
      licenses.
      a bunch of legal talk, and god only knows how that is or would be
      interpreted thru law, etc.

      meanwhile, much to my disgust, take the situation with Segways...
      here in Cali they basically re-wrote or added an entire section to
      the law.
      Segways, not either a motorized cycle, or scooter (e-scooters,
      skateboards, etc are not allowed on public pathways), nor an electric
      wheelchair, but a personal transport.

      personally, Segways represent way too much complacency in our
      culture. while i admire the technology, the application to a society
      is misdirected. IMHO


      the other day i noticed a Paramount statement in our American Society.

      there are Malls
      there are AutoMalls

      but you rarely see that convenience in a town.
      i mean...
      in a mall, you have all the connivence of proximity to spend money
      but in towns you rarely find that convenient proximity to vital
      necessities, like grocery stores, schools, work, etc.


      peace...d
    • Mark Garvey
      ... The Stoke Monkey is probably the primo E-assist system available! (No need to thank me Todd, just send me a test unit eh?) But no kidding, I think the SM
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 29, 2007
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        On Dec 29, 2007 1:01 PM, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...> wrote:
        for me, I'd be VERY INTERESTED in E-assist

        i am very interested in the Stoke Monkey on the Big Dummy
         
        The Stoke Monkey is probably the primo  E-assist system available! (No need to thank me Todd, just send me a test unit eh?)  But no kidding, I think the SM is the best available!  It runs through the gears, it has power and it is efficient.


        ultimately it would be great to have this all integrated.  a nice
        clean design.  something that integrates lights of your choice, etc.
        solar is great, and i wish that one day some kind of generator/brake
        hub would come to market.

        that is OK too, I am fascinated with Solar panels so that is where I am going, but a small wind generateor?  a hub or drag generator that would help slow you dodwn as you descend a hill and generate power?  There are LOTS of options for efficiency and power generation.  I prefer to keep MY bike fairly simple so I have a Currie  at present.  A nice Cyclone or Bionx might be an option too, but for now the system I have is a pretty good option. Unavailable however!


        one of the big barriers that i see in the world of Transport are
        local laws.

        as far as i know
        while the Stoke Monkey assists via the cranks, therefore the rider
        cannot simply twist the "throttle", here in Cali its legal
        while something like BionX makes the bicycle a motorized vehicle.
        like a moped.  therefore it produces a handful of legal barriers.
        licenses.

        Check the Wiki on E assist and see what they have.  I know that Iowa SPECIFICALLY made Electric assist bicycles LEGAL as long as the  power does not exceed 750 watts (1 Hp) and speed does not exceed 20 mph under POWER ONLY with no pedal assistance.   MOST states follow this, or a similar guideline.

        But Unless you are running a gas powered assist you probably won't have a problem!  E-assist is "stealthy"  i don't think anyone really knows what it is unless I tell them.  My motor is down behind the rear hub and the battery pack is a small plastic box in the center of the frame.  Police USUALLY follow what I call the "duck" theory.  If it looks like a duck...it is probably a duck.  So unless you get a system that lets you get up to 40-50 mph (yeah, they are out there!) and go blasting past a police car with the motor screaming, they likely won't bother you.  At least as long as you  use discretion!  If you look like a bicycle and move about the same speed as a bicycle, you are a BICYCLE!

        meanwhile, much to my disgust, take the situation with Segways...

        Segways suck!  They are expensive, stupid and dangerous to the rider and other people on the sidewalks.  Skateboards are safer!

        I can appreceate the technical achievement....but to me it is like the old joke about the safety pin.  It is a simple device, but if it werre designed by Microsoft, it would weigh 14 lbs, have three chips in it, require a regulated 13.5 V power source and a propriatary program that cost $429 in the egghead store!

        simple is best.  My e-assist?  a motor, a battery and a SWITCH (throttle!)  when I need help, I push the power lever and I have assistance. If I dont' need it....i leave it alone!

         
        in towns you rarely find that convenient proximity to vital
        necessities, like grocery stores, schools, work, etc.

        Exactly!  I live (luckily) two blocks from the grocery store, 4 blocks from the nearest school, and 1/2 mile from a hardware store and Dollar general store.  Within 5 miles are businesses and all sorts of services that help make life better.  I am seriously thinking of changing my career so that I can use my car less and less.  I don't think I will be able to eliminate it.....But I can make it a rarely used item!

        I figured out that if you go by the AAA's figure of about $8000 per year cost to own a car, if you can ELIMINATE that car, you can afford to take a job that pays $4 LESS per hour than you are currently making and STILL maintain your current level of "comfort".  So keep a junker around for occasional use, Liability only, My "work car" cost me VERY little and gets 35 mpg. I drive it about once a week in warmer weather, but most of the time in Winter.  (snow and such, the cold is not a particular problem.  but no shoulders and slush and ice IS!)

        mark



        peace...d






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      • mcg
        Devian, Here s the section from Wikipedia on California e-bike law: California - Electric Bicycles are defined by the California Vehicle Code [25][26][27]. In
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 30, 2007
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          Devian,

          Here's the section from Wikipedia on California e-bike law:
          "California - Electric Bicycles are defined by the California Vehicle
          Code [25][26][27]. In Summary, Electric Bicycles are basically, by
          law, to be operated like conventional bicycles in California. There
          are several exceptions to this. A person must be at least 16 years
          old, and anyone riding an electric bicycle must wear a bicycle helmet.
          The e-bikes must have an electric motor that has a power output less
          than 1,000 watts, is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of
          more than 20 miles per hour on level ground, is incapable of further
          increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel
          the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour, operates in a
          manner so that the electric motor is disengaged or ceases to function
          when the brakes are applied, or operates in a manner such that the
          motor is engaged through a switch or mechanism that, when released,
          will cause the electric motor to disengage or cease to function.
          Driver's licenses, registration, insurance and license plate
          requirements do not apply. A motorized bicycle is not a motor vehicle.
          A motorized bicycle shall only be operated by a person 16 years of age
          or older. Drinking and driving laws apply. Additional laws or
          ordinances may apply to the use of electric bicycles by each city or
          county."

          So, it looks like a standard assist that is used for hill climbing
          (such as most of the hub motors) does not require any kind of
          licensing, since most of those are designed to give no assist above 20
          mph. OTOH, the Stokemonkey would seem to violate the part about
          "incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human
          power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 mph".

          However, I've been using e-assist bikes since '94 in three different
          locales (one of them where ebikes are technically classified as
          vehicles), and have never had any authority figure give any kind of
          second look. I think the key is to not be obvious about it, i.e. by
          not using it to zoom down a crowded bike path or city street at 30
          mph. I wouldn't hesitate to use a Stokemonkey in a place like CA,
          I'd just be discrete about it.

          This issue may change once e-assist bikes become more popular (which
          we're trying to help with!), but I think we have a long ways to go
          before this will be on the radar of most authority figure types.

          Also, if you want regenerative braking, apparently the Goldenmotor (a
          relatively cheap hub motor) can do that - check out the e-bike DIY
          page at http://goldenmotor.com/. There are tradeoffs to regen,
          however, such as usually having increased drag on the bike even when
          not using assist or regen. The beauty of the Currie USPD,
          Stokemonkey, and now the eZee hubs is that when moving without e-
          assist, they present little to no additional drag on the bike.

          Morgan
        • crazylven
          I ve been watching the comments over at Clever Cycles. It looks like Todd is addressing the 20 mph issue as well: Stokemonkey will be bundled with a
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 30, 2007
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            I've been watching the comments over at Clever Cycles. It looks like Todd is addressing the 20 mph issue as well:

            "Stokemonkey will be bundled with a specially-programmed version of CycleAnalyst (formerly DrainBrain), a piece of electronics that in addition to typical cyclocomputer functions displays electrical system details like state of charge, real-time wattage, watt-hours-per-mile, number of charge cycles, etc. CycleAnalyst will also provide speed limiting, gently ramping down the throttle signal as a set speed is approached, and gently ramping up as speed falls off. It will come capped to 20mph; you enter the wheel size as with any other cyclocomputer for accurate computation of speed, odometer functions, etc. CycleAnalyst will also defeat the throttle signal whenever the wheel speed is 0, as a safety measure (fewer “surprise” starts) and to discourage the practice of using Stokemonkey as a substitute for downshifting before starting from a stop. In addition to these safety and legality features, having the information generated by CycleAnalyst available should greatly help with troubleshooting, lowering support costs."
            - http://clevercycles.com/?p=188

            -Crazy

            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, mcg <mcgurme@...> wrote:

            > OTOH, the Stokemonkey would seem to violate the part about 
            > "incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human 
            > power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 mph".


          • Devian Gilbert
            on 20mph.... limited to 20mph? sigh...what a bummer! its almost as if...Whats the point? ok...i guess e-assist would be great for a load going up hill, etc.
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 30, 2007
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              on 20mph....

              limited to 20mph?
              sigh...what a bummer!

              its almost as if...Whats the point?
              ok...i guess e-assist would be great for a load going up hill, etc.
              speed up hill too...awesome!

              but Oh man!  
              here i am with idears of 750watts or whatever it is...
              and big gear inches.
              often times enough i get my Xtra in the big ring 44t and those last 4 cogs.

              20mph is good
              after all...its cargo right?  utility right?

              this situation begs for a "power chip"
              20...killing me here.  or more like it....NOT KILLING ME.  lol

              i can only imagine all the issues with the masses at +20mph on bicycles.
              so i guess its good.

              e-assist may still be on mind.  but 20?  sigh...
              admittingly so...200lbs of cargo at 20mph is pretty damn scary!
              im comfortable with 50lbs in panniers at 30...but that is probably about all 
              even the times i've had the xtra loaded with camping gear at 30mph, is about all i care to run.
              and i'd say that anything over 20mph with a passenger is boardering reckless.

              in that scope...
              safety at 20mph is in our best interest...

              bummer...

              peace....d

              On Dec 30, 2007, at 5:01 AM, mcg wrote:

              Devian,

              Here's the section from Wikipedia on California e-bike law:
              "California - Electric Bicycles are defined by the California Vehicle 
              Code [25][26][27] . In Summary, Electric Bicycles are basically, by 
              law, to be operated like conventional bicycles in California. There 
              are several exceptions to this. A person must be at least 16 years 
              old, and anyone riding an electric bicycle must wear a bicycle helmet. 
              The e-bikes must have an electric motor that has a power output less 
              than 1,000 watts, is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of 
              more than 20 miles per hour on level ground, is incapable of further 
              increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel 
              the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour, operates in a 
              manner so that the electric motor is disengaged or ceases to function 
              when the brakes are applied, or operates in a manner such that the 
              motor is engaged through a switch or mechanism that, when released, 
              will cause the electric motor to disengage or cease to function.
              Driver's licenses, registration, insurance and license plate 
              requirements do not apply. A motorized bicycle is not a motor vehicle. 
              A motorized bicycle shall only be operated by a person 16 years of age 
              or older. Drinking and driving laws apply. Additional laws or 
              ordinances may apply to the use of electric bicycles by each city or 
              county."

              So, it looks like a standard assist that is used for hill climbing 
              (such as most of the hub motors) does not require any kind of 
              licensing, since most of those are designed to give no assist above 20 
              mph. OTOH, the Stokemonkey would seem to violate the part about 
              "incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human 
              power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 mph".

              However, I've been using e-assist bikes since '94 in three different 
              locales (one of them where ebikes are technically classified as 
              vehicles), and have never had any authority figure give any kind of 
              second look. I think the key is to not be obvious about it, i.e. by 
              not using it to zoom down a crowded bike path or city street at 30 
              mph. I wouldn't hesitate to use a Stokemonkey in a place like CA, 
              I'd just be discrete about it.

              This issue may change once e-assist bikes become more popular (which 
              we're trying to help with!), but I think we have a long ways to go 
              before this will be on the radar of most authority figure types.

              Also, if you want regenerative braking, apparently the Goldenmotor (a 
              relatively cheap hub motor) can do that - check out the e-bike DIY 
              page at http://goldenmotor. com/. There are tradeoffs to regen, 
              however, such as usually having increased drag on the bike even when 
              not using assist or regen. The beauty of the Currie USPD, 
              Stokemonkey, and now the eZee hubs is that when moving without e- 
              assist, they present little to no additional drag on the bike.

              Morgan


            • Mark Garvey
              ... Well, Maybe, but two things occur to me and lots have been doing the same thinking. A. first off, it IS a bicycle after all, not a motorcycle. I can go
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 30, 2007
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                On Dec 30, 2007 7:40 PM, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...> wrote:


                limited to 20mph?
                sigh...what a bummer!

                Well, Maybe, but two things occur to me and lots have been doing the same thinking.

                A.  first off, it IS a bicycle after all, not a motorcycle.  I can go 50-60 mph on my little MOTORCYCLE, but it isn't as great as my Xtracycle in nearly EVERY way.  this year my bicycle saw 2200 miles more or less and my MOTORCYCLE saw about 200, which do you think worked better for me!

                B.  Secondly.  E-motors are NOT all simply equal.  Todd has the right idea and is covering his very exposed heinie here.  He wants to market this so that it is "LEGAL".   what happens if you get it and modify it is your lookout.  and that pretty much applies to other bike e-motors as well. I do not know if you can modify teh monkey and the electronic gadget.....but I bet you can and Todd prolly won't tell you how.   Again, YOU modified it, YOUR risk.

                C.  DISCRETION!  OK, As i pointed out before.  If you ACT like a bicycle, the authorities will likely VIEW you as a bicycle.  Don't get the impression that e is equal to SLOW.  You keep throwing VOLTS at a motor and it spins faster.  the more V the more Zoom!  some e-bikes have been known to go 45-50 mph with no difficulty and there is a drag bike out there that runs 160+.  so E-motors ain't Necessarily  poochy.  But try running your Schwinn with the 72 V 4000 Watt motor down the streets of town, right past the traffic cop, ......and see what happens.  On the other hand...If you tootle past him at 20 or even 25 or so MPH pedaling serenely along.  I seriously doubt it he (or she!) will give you a second glance!  why WOULD they?  You are a BICYCLE! they don't care, unless you hit a pedestrian or a car hits you!  If you don't go up, get in their face and yell, "This is an ELECTRIC BICYCLE!  i can go 30 MPH!  Wanna bust me flat foot?"  they won't even notice that you exist!

                heck, why sweat it?  Get a system that works well for you and foggeddabouddit!  My assist only packs a 18 mph punch.  but it is MORE than adequate for MY USE! It works and I like it!  couldn't be better for me!  but then, I am a BICYCLE rider first, and if I want speed, I can always jump on the Honda!

                Besides, I don't think I would want to be on my bike at 40-50 mph!  I have gotten up to a bit over 30-35 on a local killer downhill, and that is a bit unnerving.  Call me a pansy or soemthing, but a bicycle is a wonderful tool.  I just don't need to go that fast!

                mark
              • tda0818
                Reading along with interest, back here. I more or less plan to go e-assist sometime next year; probably in the spring, if the StokeMonkey is available by
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 30, 2007
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                  Reading along with interest, back here. I more or less plan to go
                  e-assist sometime next year; probably in the spring, if the
                  StokeMonkey is available by then.

                  Another step in my attempt to go carless. Summers here are long, HOT,
                  and sticky. If I'm really going to go carless, I've got to be able to
                  run errands on the way to work, or mid-day, without being an absolute
                  sweaty mess. Some e-assist should make that possible.

                  As Morgan keeps saying, it just makes the bike a much more realistic
                  alternative to the car.

                  --urbino

                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > for me, I'd be VERY INTERESTED in E-assist
                  >
                  > i am very interested in the Stoke Monkey on the Big Dummy
                  >
                  > ultimately it would be great to have this all integrated. a nice
                  > clean design. something that integrates lights of your choice, etc.
                  > solar is great, and i wish that one day some kind of generator/brake
                  > hub would come to market.
                  >
                  > lets hope that this kind of bicycle movement prompts the industry
                  >
                  >
                  > one of the big barriers that i see in the world of Transport are
                  > local laws.
                  >
                  > as far as i know
                  > while the Stoke Monkey assists via the cranks, therefore the rider
                  > cannot simply twist the "throttle", here in Cali its legal
                  > while something like BionX makes the bicycle a motorized vehicle.
                  > like a moped. therefore it produces a handful of legal barriers.
                  > licenses.
                  > a bunch of legal talk, and god only knows how that is or would be
                  > interpreted thru law, etc.
                  >
                  > meanwhile, much to my disgust, take the situation with Segways...
                  > here in Cali they basically re-wrote or added an entire section to
                  > the law.
                  > Segways, not either a motorized cycle, or scooter (e-scooters,
                  > skateboards, etc are not allowed on public pathways), nor an electric
                  > wheelchair, but a personal transport.
                  >
                  > personally, Segways represent way too much complacency in our
                  > culture. while i admire the technology, the application to a society
                  > is misdirected. IMHO
                  >
                  >
                  > the other day i noticed a Paramount statement in our American Society.
                  >
                  > there are Malls
                  > there are AutoMalls
                  >
                  > but you rarely see that convenience in a town.
                  > i mean...
                  > in a mall, you have all the connivence of proximity to spend money
                  > but in towns you rarely find that convenient proximity to vital
                  > necessities, like grocery stores, schools, work, etc.
                  >
                  >
                  > peace...d
                  >
                • Devian Gilbert
                  i totally agree... i aint owned a car for a few years now... and often times, im runnin around at decent speeds really depends on the bike... if its a road
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                    i totally agree...

                    i aint owned a car for a few years now...
                    and often times, im runnin around at decent speeds
                    really depends on the bike...
                    if its a road bike...look out...easily 20plus on flat, in traffic, easily with traffic in 35mph areas.

                    even on a MTB speeds are pretty good
                    on the Xtra...big ring and the last 4 cogs very much the norm.

                    im 39, and have been on a bike in traffic since at least 12.

                    from what i know of traffic, the more you are part of it, the easier it is to move thru it.
                    albeit, during the first week i was in Ventura, Ca a motorbike cop stopped me, while on my MTB...35mph in traffic.
                    not against the law, and i wasnt usin the bike lane, but in traffic at speed.
                    a warning of drivers in SoCal not accustomed to a bicycle at speed.

                    e-assit...im still curious.
                    but really wonder if i'd use it.
                    there is a guy around here, i've moved back to Monterey...that has a stoke monkey on his xtra, i had the opportunity to ride it, and wow!  torque!  very cool!

                    in many ways, the purist cyclist in my heart, knowing what can be done without e-assist, makes me balk
                    but also knowing that mega-masses out there are quicker to pick up a bicycle with a motor.
                    and that is good.
                    people on bikes is good, no mater how you look at it.

                    e-assist...probably the most significant change to modern bicycles.
                    wow!

                    peace...d

                    On Dec 30, 2007, at 6:12 PM, Mark Garvey wrote:



                    On Dec 30, 2007 7:40 PM, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@ mac.com> wrote:


                    limited to 20mph?
                    sigh...what a bummer!

                    Well, Maybe, but two things occur to me and lots have been doing the same thinking. 

                    A.  first off, it IS a bicycle after all, not a motorcycle.  I can go 50-60 mph on my little MOTORCYCLE, but it isn't as great as my Xtracycle in nearly EVERY way.  this year my bicycle saw 2200 miles more or less and my MOTORCYCLE saw about 200, which do you think worked better for me! 

                    B.  Secondly.  E-motors are NOT all simply equal.  Todd has the right idea and is covering his very exposed heinie here.  He wants to market this so that it is "LEGAL".   what happens if you get it and modify it is your lookout.  and that pretty much applies to other bike e-motors as well. I do not know if you can modify teh monkey and the electronic gadget.....but I bet you can and Todd prolly won't tell you how.   Again, YOU modified it, YOUR risk. 

                    C.  DISCRETION!  OK, As i pointed out before.  If you ACT like a bicycle, the authorities will likely VIEW you as a bicycle.  Don't get the impression that e is equal to SLOW.  You keep throwing VOLTS at a motor and it spins faster.  the more V the more Zoom!  some e-bikes have been known to go 45-50 mph with no difficulty and there is a drag bike out there that runs 160+.  so E-motors ain't Necessarily  poochy.  But try running your Schwinn with the 72 V 4000 Watt motor down the streets of town, right past the traffic cop, ......and see what happens.  On the other hand...If you tootle past him at 20 or even 25 or so MPH pedaling serenely along.  I seriously doubt it he (or she!) will give you a second glance!  why WOULD they?  You are a BICYCLE! they don't care, unless you hit a pedestrian or a car hits you!  If you don't go up, get in their face and yell, "This is an ELECTRIC ! BICYCLE!  i can go 30 MPH!  Wanna bust me flat foot?"  they won't even notice that you exist! 

                    heck, why sweat it?  Get a system that works well for you and foggeddabouddit!  My assist only packs a 18 mph punch.  but it is MORE than adequate for MY USE! It works and I like it!  couldn't be better for me!  but then, I am a BICYCLE rider first, and if I want speed, I can always jump on the Honda! 

                    Besides, I don't think I would want to be on my bike at 40-50 mph!  I have gotten up to a bit over 30-35 on a local killer downhill, and that is a bit unnerving.  Call me a pansy or soemthing, but a bicycle is a wonderful tool.  I just don't need to go that fast! 

                    mark


                  • Mighk Wilson
                    ... In Florida (and probably most states, because the origin of this is federal) an electric bike is defined as one that will not exceed 20 mph when solely
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                      >> limited to 20mph? sigh...what a bummer!<<

                      In Florida (and probably most states, because the origin of this is
                      federal) an electric bike is defined as one that will not exceed 20 mph
                      when solely under electric power and on level ground. That does not
                      mean you can't exceed 20 mph if you're pedaling or descending! I wonder
                      why they didn't just set a horsepower limit for the motor, since so many
                      other motorized thresholds are defined that way.

                      Mighk
                    • Bruce Hallman
                      ... Some legal issues that come up with legal definition of type of vehicle: vehicle registration and licensing, age of operator, insurance, operator
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                        > limited to 20mph?

                        Some legal issues that come up with legal definition of type of
                        vehicle: vehicle registration and licensing, age of operator,
                        insurance, operator licensing, manufacture disclosure and manufacturer
                        liability, operator liability, safety equipment, sobriety and D.U.I.
                        issues, etc...

                        In California, there are different definitions (and rules) for
                        bicycles, motor driven cycle, motorized scooter, pocket bike and
                        motorcycles.

                        A fascinating book that delves into this is "Bicycling and the Law" by
                        Bob Minonski. And one of the most interesting concepts that I learned
                        from that book is that because the right of interstate travel is a
                        protected Constitutional right, and that there is no right to motor
                        vehicle travel (being licensed, and revocable) that therefore there is
                        a Constitutional protected right to the road for bicycles for all
                        people without regard to age, DUI license status, citizenry, etc..

                        Bicycle travel is a Constitutional protected right, motor vehicle travel is not.
                      • Devian Gilbert
                        ahhh.... motor vehicle travel is a privilege funny how that is but ironic how its such a pain, the cost alone is insane. the complexity is crazy and the zoom
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                          ahhh....
                          motor vehicle travel is a privilege 
                          funny how that is
                          but ironic how its such a pain, the cost alone is insane.
                          the complexity is crazy
                          and the zoom zoom, busy life that come about drive us to the cleaners.  well, for most people it does.
                          lol

                          once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one velomobile.  wow!  what an awesome machine, then i started thinking, and really looking at it, contemplating its "entry" angle, how it would actually work in real life.  when i ultimately decided to let the fantasy go.  go with the notion that suddenly a bicycle is being morphed into something like a car.  what?  ya...suddenly i found that so many people where interested in it because it resembled a car.

                          and my heart would sink, and i'd toss the notion of bunny hoping a curb, quick cable the bike to something close to the doorway, go inside, grab a soda, newspaper, whatever, and split.  about as fast as a person could park their car, and walk in to the store.

                          the freedom of the bicycle; is so often times threatened, and i'd think to myself, "why would i want to start looking for a parking space for my bike."

                          but i will confess to the initial dangers of being fluid on a bike.  but once its a rhythm in your soul, it is difficult to let go of.

                          e-assist...
                          i love the topic

                          and yet lastnight, i was suddenly thinking of 15mph ascents!  wow!
                          super human 
                          ahh...

                          peace...d

                          On Dec 31, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:

                          > limited to 20mph?

                          Some legal issues that come up with legal definition of type of
                          vehicle: vehicle registration and licensing, age of operator,
                          insurance, operator licensing, manufacture disclosure and manufacturer
                          liability, operator liability, safety equipment, sobriety and D.U.I.
                          issues, etc...

                          In California, there are different definitions (and rules) for
                          bicycles, motor driven cycle, motorized scooter, pocket bike and
                          motorcycles.

                          A fascinating book that delves into this is "Bicycling and the Law" by
                          Bob Minonski. And one of the most interesting concepts that I learned
                          from that book is that because the right of interstate travel is a
                          protected Constitutional right, and that there is no right to motor
                          vehicle travel (being licensed, and revocable) that therefore there is
                          a Constitutional protected right to the road for bicycles for all
                          people without regard to age, DUI license status, citizenry, etc..

                          Bicycle travel is a Constitutional protected right, motor vehicle travel is not.


                        • Mark Garvey
                          ... Yeah! they are! So is the Mango, the Quest, the WAW and the Aurora and several others. a couple that I know owns THREE Cab-Bikes and tehre is a Leitra
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                            On Dec 31, 2007 2:26 PM, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...> wrote:


                            once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one velomobile.  wow!  what an awesome machine,

                            Yeah!  they are!  So is the Mango, the Quest, the WAW and the Aurora and several others.  a couple that I know owns THREE Cab-Bikes and tehre is a Leitra near me somewhere, as well as a Flevo Alleweder.  I am very interested in Velomobiles.  But like you, I sort of became a little frustrated with a couple of the problems.  Size, weight, expense, versitility...or lack thereof.  GREAT in crappy weather however!  I had a VeloKit on a trike for a while and sold the trike. THAT was cool  on cold mornings I would have to stop and open the windows to let myself cool down a bit!  With the e-assist it was really great, and riding to work getting caught in a T-storm was a non event!  No rain on ME!

                            But you might notice that I am now riding a "wedgie" bike, with an Xtracycle on it because I think it WORKS better for my use.   It is simply less cumbersome to work with and has more versatile uses. The e-assist is STILL a good thing, but I am STILL waffling about it!  It has been on and off the bike at least a half dozen times.  I take it off because it bothers me to have that weight and complexity.  I put it back on because it really makes a difference in how the bike WORKS. :::sigh::: so what is the answer?? who knows!

                            mark
                          • tda0818
                            The Go-One is one sleek machine, alright, but $10,000? Ay, carumba! There s no way it provides 9 thousand dollars worth of value over an X -- or even, say,
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                              The Go-One is one sleek machine, alright, but $10,000? Ay, carumba!

                              There's no way it provides 9 thousand dollars worth of value over an X
                              -- or even, say, $6k worth of value over a seriously tricked out road
                              bike or very nice recumbent. Does it do anything a normal bike can't
                              do? I don't see anything. I mean, I guess it'll keep the weather
                              off, but that's something, say, $500 worth of well-designed layering
                              will do, head to toe. What does the other $5.5k get you? (Not turn
                              signals, which should be mandatory on a rig like this. They're an
                              extra thousand bucks.)

                              These questions aren't aimed at anybody here, btw. They're just me
                              thinking out loud, trying to figure out what the market is for a $10k
                              recumbent. ISTM they're banking entirely on the "cool" factor. I
                              don't get it. I guess not many people do; they say they've sold less
                              than 50 of them.

                              --urbino


                              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > ahhh....
                              > motor vehicle travel is a privilege
                              > funny how that is
                              > but ironic how its such a pain, the cost alone is insane.
                              > the complexity is crazy
                              > and the zoom zoom, busy life that come about drive us to the
                              > cleaners. well, for most people it does.
                              > lol
                              >
                              > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one
                              > velomobile. wow! what an awesome machine, then i started thinking,
                              > and really looking at it, contemplating its "entry" angle, how it
                              > would actually work in real life. when i ultimately decided to let
                              > the fantasy go. go with the notion that suddenly a bicycle is being
                              > morphed into something like a car. what? ya...suddenly i found that
                            • Devian Gilbert
                              seriously huh? its crazy like a DVD player in a car, etc, all the gizmos my fantastical mind does pull towards it tho... in some kind of fantasy utopia idea i
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                                seriously huh?
                                its crazy
                                like a DVD player in a car, etc, all the gizmos
                                my fantastical mind does pull towards it tho...
                                in some kind of fantasy utopia idea

                                i was really concerned with the "entry" angle.  like what a bummer it would be to try to go across any kind of a bump or dip in the road at any speed, when a normal bike, you can either, bunny hop, do a wheelie, or anything.  
                                then i wondered what it would be like to grind along its shell, once or if you got it off its tyres....a bob sled gone crazy, out of control.

                                all those things about weather, well, im not too sure about that either,
                                Assos pretty much has that summed up, no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing.
                                heck, i cant tell you how many times i've used a trash bag for rain gear.

                                all in all, i've come to seriously value the Xtracycle.
                                it has its pluses and minuses but really...it totally rocks!

                                im anxious for the Big Dummy.

                                D-

                                On Dec 31, 2007, at 4:50 PM, tda0818 wrote:

                                The Go-One is one sleek machine, alright, but $10,000? Ay, carumba! 

                                There's no way it provides 9 thousand dollars worth of value over an X
                                -- or even, say, $6k worth of value over a seriously tricked out road
                                bike or very nice recumbent. Does it do anything a normal bike can't
                                do? I don't see anything. I mean, I guess it'll keep the weather
                                off, but that's something, say, $500 worth of well-designed layering
                                will do, head to toe. What does the other $5.5k get you? (Not turn
                                signals, which should be mandatory on a rig like this. They're an
                                extra thousand bucks.)

                                These questions aren't aimed at anybody here, btw. They're just me
                                thinking out loud, trying to figure out what the market is for a $10k
                                recumbent. ISTM they're banking entirely on the "cool" factor. I
                                don't get it. I guess not many people do; they say they've sold less
                                than 50 of them.

                                --urbino

                                --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@ ...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > ahhh....
                                > motor vehicle travel is a privilege
                                > funny how that is
                                > but ironic how its such a pain, the cost alone is insane.
                                > the complexity is crazy
                                > and the zoom zoom, busy life that come about drive us to the 
                                > cleaners. well, for most people it does.
                                > lol
                                > 
                                > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one 
                                > velomobile. wow! what an awesome machine, then i started thinking, 
                                > and really looking at it, contemplating its "entry" angle, how it 
                                > would actually work in real life. when i ultimately decided to let 
                                > the fantasy go. go with the notion that suddenly a bicycle is being 
                                > morphed into something like a car. what? ya...suddenly i found that 


                              • Cara Lin Bridgman
                                ... Those look hot--as in hot to operate. How are they ventilated and are they good enough for the soggy and steamy sub-tropics? Also, where are the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                                  Devian Gilbert wrote:
                                  > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one
                                  > velomobile. <http://www.go-one.us/Pictures_of_go-one3.html>


                                  Those look hot--as in hot to operate. How are they ventilated and are
                                  they good enough for the soggy and steamy sub-tropics? Also, where are
                                  the windshield wipers and how well do they work in the rain?

                                  I really think a regular bike is best, even if I do sometimes look as
                                  though I just climbed out of the rinse cycle of a washing machine.

                                  I, too, sometimes dream of turn signals and brake lights.

                                  CL
                                • Cara Lin Bridgman
                                  ... If this about bicycle travel as a protected constitutional right is true, then it ought to be broadcast widely. Too many cars think they own the road. I
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 31, 2007
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                                    Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                    > A fascinating book that delves into this is "Bicycling and the Law" by
                                    > Bob Minonski. And one of the most interesting concepts that I learned
                                    > from that book is that because the right of interstate travel is a
                                    > protected Constitutional right, and that there is no right to motor
                                    > vehicle travel (being licensed, and revocable) that therefore there is
                                    > a Constitutional protected right to the road for bicycles for all
                                    > people without regard to age, DUI license status, citizenry, etc..
                                    >
                                    > Bicycle travel is a Constitutional protected right,
                                    > motor vehicle travel is not.


                                    If this about bicycle travel as a protected constitutional right is
                                    true, then it ought to be broadcast widely. Too many cars think they
                                    own the road.

                                    I suspect this law was designed with horses in mind. We don't need
                                    licenses to ride horses, or walk...

                                    Coming at this issue sideways is the problem Taiwan will have this month
                                    when they start trying to enforce a helmet law for bicyclists. Police
                                    are not allowed to collect fines or search or confiscate personal
                                    property. Bicycles aren't required to have licenses. So, if the police
                                    stop a helmet-less bicyclist, what can they do? They can ask for an ID
                                    (everyone in Taiwan has one), the bicyclist can always say she left it
                                    at home... Talk about truly free on the road...

                                    For the past two months on my weekly commute to teach at a school 13 km
                                    away, I've kept track of types (students, women, men, Lance wannabee,
                                    loaded, electric) and helmets. I've not analyzed the data yet (I want
                                    to see how things change after the helmet law begins), but here are some
                                    rough results: the Lance wannabees always wear helmets. Some of the
                                    students wear helmets (and sometimes these helmets are motorbike
                                    helmets). Almost no one else does. To me, this means that in Taiwan,
                                    helmets really are not worn for safety, but are fashion statements
                                    distinguishing the sports biker from ordinary bikers and commuter bikers.

                                    CL
                                  • Mark Garvey
                                    OK, to answer a few questions. Not that I am the Velomobile Expert, but I have run the Midwest HPV and Velomobile Conference and workshop for two of the last
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                      OK, to answer a few questions.  Not that I am the Velomobile Expert, but I have run the Midwest HPV and Velomobile Conference and workshop for two of the last three years.

                                      On Jan 1, 2008 12:53 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman < caralinb@...> wrote:



                                      Those look hot--as in hot to operate.

                                      Uh, yeah.  the  Go One is flashy, but not MY choice.  the more practical ones are what is called "head out" like the Mango and Quest and Alleweder.  the driver is in something that looks like a vastly improved  soap box derby car.   the BEST of the head in versions are the Cab Bike, which is not as slick looking, but MUCH better from a practical standpoint.
                                       How are they ventilated and are
                                      they good enough for the soggy and steamy sub-tropics?

                                      Ventilation is through vents up front and air flow.  The open ones have fewer problems obviously.  (most have removable covers if you want them) the Cab Bike has a sliding windshield that retracts and both side windows come out and store in the cargo compartment.  the Go One has a removable canopy.  Leaving the windshield in place.  And No $10 K is a lot for THAT.  The others are slightly less.  But all are mostly made custom for each customer so will obviously cost more.  A hand build Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo too. Or even a Ford.
                                       
                                       Also, where are
                                      the windshield wipers and how well do they work in the rain?

                                      The only one with Wipers that I know of is the Cab Bike.  They (or IT) is a manual thing.  No more is really necessary.  An occasional siwpe is usually all you need.  Friends own 3 of them and I have ridden in them.  Nice in some ways, but a little cumbersome.

                                      Bumps and bunny hops.   OK, I have ridden Trikes a lot and the same applies.  Not all that much of an issue, but occasionally a problem.  MOST VMs have suspension.  yeah!  the Cab Bike has  McPhearson struts, so does the Alleweder and those are the only two I am completely (or more completely anyway) familiar with.  The Price on these is a function of production and rarity.  Several people have built bikes and trikes with bodies around them at considerably less expense.




                                      I really think a regular bike is best, even if I do sometimes look as
                                      though I just climbed out of the rinse cycle of a washing machine.

                                      OK, I agree that in MANY ways a standard bicycle has advantages over a Velomobile.  But the opposite applies as well.  for a commuter, you can have a vehicle that keeps you dry in wet weather and warm in cold weather.  Having storage area INSIDE is also a plus.   As a seperate function, VMs are FAST...VERY fast.  the  Cab Bike no. It is simply utilitarian and the VM equivalent of the X.   Mary and Dale had a display in 06 of  "what you can carry in ONE Cab bike."  Not as BIG as the X, but a LOT!  they had a HUGE pile of stuff!  They rode from their Hotel to the site (about 5 miles) in the Cab Bikes in one of the Midwest's Finest T storms and arrived dry and toasty.  Riding right up to and through the doors and into the conference area.  Dripping on the rug!  then proceeded to lift out picnic baskets, umbrellas, chairs sleeping bags, tent and a whole pile of stuff.  the Cab Bike is one BIG dry bag or hard shell suitcase.

                                      Speed. OK.  The best of the VMs is the Quest which was MADE for speed.   Easily can run 25-35 mph with no assist and with about the same effort as riding a standard bike at 15 mph or so.  VERY efficient.   the Mango is a slightly more practical version and slightly slower.  but a good rider can really make them move.  Same with a few others.  the aerodynamics are impressive.  I have attended the local HPV races here for the last two years and watched as the competitors circled a 1/2 mile track for long periods of time at a constant 40-50 mph using human power alone.  On a standard bike a 25 mile/1 hour time trial is a pretty difficult thing.  I saw a 73 year old guy do a 30-35 mph 1 hour time trial with no strain, and the Hot shots did well over 40 often hitting 50.   Highest speed achieved is 81. something.  the hour Record is a bit over 50 miles in one hour.  the hour record for teh electric racers teh high schools and colleges do is 45 miles.  think on that a moment!

                                      SO.  the question is not are they workable or practical, or even worth the money, but do YOU want one?  I do, I had experience with a couple of my own, an elderly PPV (1973) which is not particularly practical, but cool in a "Corvette Collector" way.  and a VeloKit which attaches to a standard Trike.  It had flaws, but it was practical and gave about 90% of teh same protection in Thunderstorms as the Cab bikes.  It is nice to be riding home from a gig in my working clothes (a Hawaiian shirt and straw hat) while a nasty storm rages and get annoyed because the window leaked and I got the sleeve of my shirt wet (dammit!)

                                      They are just a different approach.  Note WHICH one I am using NOW!   I decided that FOR MY PURPOSES a standard bicycle was more practical and all around useful.  I still have my PPV which will be part of my "collection" for as long as I can keep it.  But for 99% of my riding, my Xtracycle takes the prize.  It simply works.

                                      Oh, yeah, and bubble windshields over you....HOT WOW!  and heat builds up inside as you work too.  VENTILATION!  need it!

                                      Mary (Cab Bike)  reports that at ZERO she needs to pack her parka in the back of teh Cab Bike (Minneapolis) wear a light sweatshirt. Jump in, button up, hit the Garage door opener and pedal like crazy for about a quarter mile to warm up, then keep speed the rest of teh way to her clinic (she is a doctor)   She and Dale got the CBs because they were more practical and carried more groceries than their Surburban did (which they sold after getting the Cab Bikes)

                                      It is just another approach.

                                      mark


                                      I, too, sometimes dream of turn signals and brake lights.

                                      CL

                                    • Juergen Weichert
                                      I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now. There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes and certainly
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                        I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now.
                                        There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes
                                        and certainly extends the utility of any bike but especially cargo bikes.

                                        I feel that electric assist should supplement, not replace human power
                                        as the primary motive force on the bike. As others have noted there is
                                        no "need" for electric on a bike given sufficient health and bicycle
                                        gearing, and time. You can get up any grade with just about any load,
                                        albeit at a crawl in some cases. Electric levels the playing field
                                        allowing those with heavy loads (personal or cargo!) to make it up
                                        grades in decent time at decent (regular cruising) speeds. Electric
                                        should not be seen as a way to go faster, but rather easier and more
                                        frequently. Most laws concerning electric bikes limit top (assisted)
                                        speeds to 20mph or 32km/h here in Canada. (reasonable - this is a quick
                                        cruising speed for most cyclists).

                                        There are many systems out there and it is vitally important to work
                                        with someone who understands them and can guide you to the best system
                                        for your needs. I would be happy to comment further about the ones I
                                        have used if folks are interested.

                                        Juergen

                                        Juergen Weichert
                                        613-746-7685
                                        Acclivity Solutions
                                        www.acclivity.ca



                                        tda0818 wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Reading along with interest, back here. I more or less plan to go
                                        > e-assist sometime next year; probably in the spring, if the
                                        > StokeMonkey is available by then.
                                        >
                                        > Another step in my attempt to go carless. Summers here are long, HOT,
                                        > and sticky. If I'm really going to go carless, I've got to be able to
                                        > run errands on the way to work, or mid-day, without being an absolute
                                        > sweaty mess. Some e-assist should make that possible.
                                        >
                                        > As Morgan keeps saying, it just makes the bike a much more realistic
                                        > alternative to the car.
                                        >
                                        > --urbino
                                        >
                                        > -
                                        >
                                      • Juergen Weichert
                                        A friend of mine has a Go-One and has added electric assist. Wow - talk about a cruising machine! I am also working on a velomobile design of my own which will
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                          A friend of mine has a Go-One and has added electric assist. Wow - talk
                                          about a cruising machine!
                                          I am also working on a velomobile design of my own which will eventually
                                          have e-assist. http://www.acclivity.ca/velomobile/

                                          Electric is particularly well suited for velomobiles as they are heavier
                                          and need a bit of help getting up hills. On the flats they can go way
                                          fast under human power alone due to the awesome aerodynamics.

                                          There is a group list dedicated to velomobiles at
                                          http://www.phred.org/mailman/listinfo/velomobile

                                          Juergen

                                          p.s. climbing hills at 15mph IS amazing with e-assist.



                                          Devian Gilbert wrote:
                                          >
                                          > ahhh....
                                          >
                                          > motor vehicle travel is a privilege
                                          > funny how that is
                                          > but ironic how its such a pain, the cost alone is insane.
                                          > the complexity is crazy
                                          > and the zoom zoom, busy life that come about drive us to the cleaners.
                                          > well, for most people it does.
                                          > lol
                                          >
                                          > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one
                                          > velomobile. <http://www.go-one.us/Pictures_of_go-one3.html> wow!
                                          > what an awesome machine, then i started thinking, and really looking
                                          > at it, contemplating its "entry" angle, how it would /actually /work
                                          > in real life. when i ultimately decided to let the fantasy go. go
                                          > with the notion that suddenly a bicycle is being morphed into
                                          > something like a car. what? ya...suddenly i found that so many
                                          > people where interested in it because it resembled a car.
                                          >
                                          > and my heart would sink, and i'd toss the notion of bunny hoping a
                                          > curb, quick cable the bike to something close to the doorway, go
                                          > inside, grab a soda, newspaper, whatever, and split. about as fast as
                                          > a person could park their car, and walk in to the store.
                                          >
                                          > the freedom of the bicycle; is so often times threatened, and i'd
                                          > think to myself, "why would i want to start looking for a parking
                                          > space for my /bike./"
                                          >
                                          > but i will confess to the initial dangers of being fluid on a bike.
                                          > but once its a rhythm in your soul, it is difficult to let go of.
                                          >
                                          > e-assist...
                                          > i love the topic
                                          >
                                          > and yet lastnight, i was suddenly thinking of 15mph ascents! wow!
                                          > super human
                                          > ahh...
                                          >
                                          > peace...d
                                          >
                                        • Juergen Weichert
                                          I think bikes are like shoes - many great ones for all kinds of applications and not many that suit all. Imagine having only one pair of shoes? Tennis shoes,
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                            I think bikes are like shoes - many great ones for all kinds of
                                            applications and not many that suit all. Imagine having only one pair of
                                            shoes? Tennis shoes, running, dress, hiking, golf shoes, soccer cleats,
                                            walking shoes, regular winter boots, deep-show boots, ice crampons,
                                            snowshoes, sandals, flip-flops...endless.
                                            One bike is not enough and a dozen might be pushing the other end of the
                                            envelope. I think around 7 is close to the right number - one for each
                                            day of the week and choose for the day as you might choose your shoes.
                                            In my suggested list:
                                            - single speed for simplicity
                                            - MTB or hybrid or cruiser for general all-around use.
                                            - Xtracycle for cargo
                                            - recumbent for comfort
                                            - velomobile for speed
                                            - folding bike for convenience
                                            - tandem for company
                                            (- loaner bike for visitors?)

                                            Your choices will vary. Any further suggestions?

                                            Juergen



                                            Mark Garvey wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Dec 31, 2007 2:26 PM, Devian Gilbert <asanacycles@...
                                            > <mailto:asanacycles@...>> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > once upon a time, i was seriously thinking about buying a Go-one
                                            > velomobile. <http://www.go-one.us/Pictures_of_go-one3.html> wow!
                                            > what an awesome machine,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yeah! they are! So is the Mango, the Quest, the WAW and the Aurora
                                            > and several others. a couple that I know owns THREE Cab-Bikes and
                                            > tehre is a Leitra near me somewhere, as well as a Flevo Alleweder. I
                                            > am very interested in Velomobiles. But like you, I sort of became a
                                            > little frustrated with a couple of the problems. Size, weight,
                                            > expense, versitility...or lack thereof. GREAT in crappy weather
                                            > however! I had a VeloKit on a trike for a while and sold the trike.
                                            > THAT was cool on cold mornings I would have to stop and open the
                                            > windows to let myself cool down a bit! With the e-assist it was
                                            > really great, and riding to work getting caught in a T-storm was a non
                                            > event! No rain on ME!
                                            >
                                            > But you might notice that I am now riding a "wedgie" bike, with an
                                            > Xtracycle on it because I think it WORKS better for my use. It is
                                            > simply less cumbersome to work with and has more versatile uses. The
                                            > e-assist is STILL a good thing, but I am STILL waffling about it! It
                                            > has been on and off the bike at least a half dozen times. I take it
                                            > off because it bothers me to have that weight and complexity. I put
                                            > it back on because it really makes a difference in how the bike WORKS.
                                            > :::sigh::: so what is the answer?? who knows!
                                            >
                                            > mark
                                            >
                                          • Juergen Weichert
                                            Velomobiles are faster than just about anything else out there. Juergen
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                              Velomobiles are faster than just about anything else out there.
                                              Juergen

                                              tda0818 wrote:
                                              >
                                              > The Go-One is one sleek machine, alright, but $10,000? Ay, carumba!
                                              >
                                              > There's no way it provides 9 thousand dollars worth of value over an X
                                              > -- or even, say, $6k worth of value over a seriously tricked out road
                                              > bike or very nice recumbent. Does it do anything a normal bike can't
                                              > do? I don't see anything. I mean, I guess it'll keep the weather
                                              > off, but that's something, say, $500 worth of well-designed layering
                                              > will do, head to toe. What does the other $5.5k get you? (Not turn
                                              > signals, which should be mandatory on a rig like this. They're an
                                              > extra thousand bucks.)
                                              >
                                              > These questions aren't aimed at anybody here, btw. They're just me
                                              > thinking out loud, trying to figure out what the market is for a $10k
                                              > recumbent. ISTM they're banking entirely on the "cool" factor. I
                                              > don't get it. I guess not many people do; they say they've sold less
                                              > than 50 of them.
                                              >
                                              > --urbino
                                              >
                                            • tda0818
                                              I d be interested. --urbino ... bikes.
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                                I'd be interested.

                                                --urbino


                                                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Juergen Weichert <juergen@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now.
                                                > There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes
                                                > and certainly extends the utility of any bike but especially cargo
                                                bikes.
                                                >
                                                > I feel that electric assist should supplement, not replace human power
                                                > as the primary motive force on the bike. As others have noted there is
                                                > no "need" for electric on a bike given sufficient health and bicycle
                                                > gearing, and time. You can get up any grade with just about any load,
                                                > albeit at a crawl in some cases. Electric levels the playing field
                                                > allowing those with heavy loads (personal or cargo!) to make it up
                                                > grades in decent time at decent (regular cruising) speeds. Electric
                                                > should not be seen as a way to go faster, but rather easier and more
                                                > frequently. Most laws concerning electric bikes limit top (assisted)
                                                > speeds to 20mph or 32km/h here in Canada. (reasonable - this is a quick
                                                > cruising speed for most cyclists).
                                                >
                                                > There are many systems out there and it is vitally important to work
                                                > with someone who understands them and can guide you to the best system
                                                > for your needs. I would be happy to comment further about the ones I
                                                > have used if folks are interested.
                                                >
                                                > Juergen
                                                >
                                                > Juergen Weichert
                                                > 613-746-7685
                                                > Acclivity Solutions
                                                > www.acclivity.ca
                                                >
                                              • David Eichelberger
                                                I second the motion. Love, Dave ... From: tda0818 To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:19 PM Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: on
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                                  I second the motion.
                                                  Love,
                                                  Dave
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: tda0818
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:19 PM
                                                  Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: on e-assist

                                                  I'd be interested.

                                                  --urbino

                                                  --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Juergen Weichert <juergen@... >
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I have been using (and selling) e-assist systems for several years now.
                                                  > There is no question about it - e-assist gets more folks out on bikes
                                                  > and certainly extends the utility of any bike but especially cargo
                                                  bikes.
                                                  >
                                                  > I feel that electric assist should supplement, not replace human power
                                                  > as the primary motive force on the bike. As others have noted there is
                                                  > no "need" for electric on a bike given sufficient health and bicycle
                                                  > gearing, and time. You can get up any grade with just about any load,
                                                  > albeit at a crawl in some cases. Electric levels the playing field
                                                  > allowing those with heavy loads (personal or cargo!) to make it up
                                                  > grades in decent time at decent (regular cruising) speeds. Electric
                                                  > should not be seen as a way to go faster, but rather easier and more
                                                  > frequently. Most laws concerning electric bikes limit top (assisted)
                                                  > speeds to 20mph or 32km/h here in Canada. (reasonable - this is a quick
                                                  > cruising speed for most cyclists).
                                                  >
                                                  > There are many systems out there and it is vitally important to work
                                                  > with someone who understands them and can guide you to the best system
                                                  > for your needs. I would be happy to comment further about the ones I
                                                  > have used if folks are interested.
                                                  >
                                                  > Juergen
                                                  >
                                                  > Juergen Weichert
                                                  > 613-746-7685
                                                  > Acclivity Solutions
                                                  > www.acclivity. ca
                                                  >

                                                • Bruce Hallman
                                                  ... Read the Minonski book to learn the details, but specifically the Constitution protects the right of interstate travel. And, court cases have ruled that
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                                    On Dec 31, 2007 11:12 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman <caralinb@...> wrote:
                                                    > > A fascinating book that delves into this is "Bicycling and the Law" by
                                                    > > Bob Minonski.


                                                    > > Bicycle travel is a Constitutional protected right,
                                                    > > motor vehicle travel is not.
                                                    >
                                                    > If this about bicycle travel as a protected constitutional right is
                                                    > true, then it ought to be broadcast widely. Too many cars think they
                                                    > own the road.

                                                    Read the Minonski book to learn the details, but specifically the
                                                    Constitution protects the right of interstate travel. And, court
                                                    cases have ruled that this is meaningless without also there being a
                                                    right of intrastate travel. And, considering that the right to drive
                                                    an automobile is revocable, (for instance, due to being underage, or
                                                    due to a conviction for drunk driving) then therefore the right to the
                                                    road for bicycles is constitutionally protected. This is legal
                                                    theory, Constitutional, that the lawyers use to contest (and win)
                                                    nearly every attempt by cities and states to pass laws to prohibit
                                                    bicycles on roads. To successfully prohibit bicycles from roads
                                                    requires a very compelling reason in the courts, and has largely
                                                    failed.

                                                    Also, most state law is based on the 'pre-automobile' origin of the US
                                                    Vehicle codes, designed primarily to regulate horse carriages, and
                                                    bicycles sharing the road. Essentially every state has a variation on
                                                    the law "bicycles have all the rights and duties" of the road as
                                                    vehicles clause.

                                                    Again, read the Minonski book, it is fascinating.
                                                  • tda0818
                                                    Mionske is the author s name, for anybody who s looking for the book.
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jan 1, 2008
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                                                      Mionske is the author's name, for anybody who's looking for the book.

                                                      http://www.amazon.com/Bicycling-Law-Your-Rights-Cyclist/dp/1931382999/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199249074&sr=1-1

                                                      --urbino


                                                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Again, read the Minonski book, it is fascinating.
                                                      >
                                                    • MH
                                                      Hi Juergen. Something I added to my list is a - chopper for sculptured beauty. I ve been looking at chopper cruisers for several years and just last week I
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jan 2, 2008
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                                                        Hi Juergen. Something I added to my list is a - chopper for sculptured
                                                        beauty. I've been looking at chopper cruisers for several years and
                                                        just last week I picked up a Christmas Special, a PhatCycles.com
                                                        Modified Stretch for half price at my local bike shop. Its a single
                                                        speed. I suppose that falls into the simplicity category. I went in
                                                        for a XtraCycle and couldn't pass up the deal. I plan on getting my X
                                                        cargo bike sometime when its warmer out. To satisfy my interest I've
                                                        been collecting some online photos for my home slide showing of the X at
                                                        work. I hope to put the X into overtime duty this summer doing some
                                                        trail building. -Mark


                                                        Juergen Weichert wrote:
                                                        > I think bikes are like shoes - many great ones for all kinds of
                                                        > applications and not many that suit all. Imagine having only one pair of
                                                        > shoes? Tennis shoes, running, dress, hiking, golf shoes, soccer cleats,
                                                        > walking shoes, regular winter boots, deep-show boots, ice crampons,
                                                        > snowshoes, sandals, flip-flops...endless.
                                                        > One bike is not enough and a dozen might be pushing the other end of the
                                                        > envelope. I think around 7 is close to the right number - one for each
                                                        > day of the week and choose for the day as you might choose your shoes.
                                                        > In my suggested list:
                                                        > - single speed for simplicity
                                                        > - MTB or hybrid or cruiser for general all-around use.
                                                        > - Xtracycle for cargo
                                                        > - recumbent for comfort
                                                        > - velomobile for speed
                                                        > - folding bike for convenience
                                                        > - tandem for company
                                                        > (- loaner bike for visitors?)
                                                        >
                                                        > Your choices will vary. Any further suggestions?
                                                        >
                                                        > Juergen
                                                        >
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