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Re: [rootsradicals] The Loud Bike cracked my Free Radical frame

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  • David Backeberg
    I love the loud bike description and images. I think I m hearing from a few different people that the Big Dummy is built for abuse. I don t know if anybody
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 3, 2013
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      I love the loud bike description and images. I think I'm hearing from a few different people that the Big Dummy is built for abuse. I don't know if anybody wants to speak up about cracking a Dummy with heavy loads. I assume it's possible. I know in the Dummy manual it reminded me to brake with both wheels when carrying massive loads, lest I put all the force on the fork and snap it off. I've never loaded it up with bags of concrete or anything massive like that; just kids and groceries, and my trombone and gigbag for rehearsals.


      On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Tone <tone@...> wrote:
       

      David,
      As Pete already pointed out, cracking of the FreeRadical frame behind
      the rear dropouts is somewhat common when carrying heady loads. It is
      simply a structural week point. If I remember correctly, Xtracycle
      specifies a limit of no more than sixty pounds loaded behind the read
      axle, but something like up to 150-200 pounds in front of the rear axle.
      You may also recall, even though the horizontal tube at the back of the
      FreeRadical frame is called the "Rear Step" they definitely do not want
      you stepping on it!
      I myself managed to crack two FreeRadical frames this way. I guess I am
      like Pete in that I liked trying to haul stupid big loads just to see if
      I could. The first time I noticed my FreeRadical frame cracked was when
      I sort of felt I had a squishy rear tire. It just seemed wobbly back
      there, but when I checked the tire pressure all was fine. However, that
      feeling was still there when I began to ride again. At some point I
      began noticing it felt wiggly when I biked in a swervy line, then while
      doing this I looked back at my tail. I was astonished to see my back end
      swaying left to right. I immediately stopped my bike and had a closer
      look. That is when I saw my frame was cracked behind the rear drop out,
      but that was not all. Both sides were cracked! The only reason the back
      end did not drop to the pavement was because I had both freeloaders on
      tight with two wide-loaders equipped.
      I was working as a bike messenger back then, so god only knows how long
      I had at least one side cracked. The guys at Xtracycle were so cool
      about it too because they immediately shipped me out a new FreeRadical
      frame without expecting me to send my frame to them first. That enabled
      me to simply ride for work with a "half-assed" long tail without the
      back end or free loaders, etc. When the new frame arrived I swapped my
      old one for the new one on my bike and shipped back my busted frame to
      Xtracycle in the box they sent the replacement in. If I remember
      correctly, they were also super sweet in noticing my Freeloaders looked
      rather ratty in the photos of my broken FreeRadical, and asked me to to
      include my worn out FreeLoader bags in the box back to them so they
      could examine it for future product improvement. Of course that meant
      they hooked me up with a new set of FreeLoaders without me ever asking!
      I could not have asked for better customer service and support.
      Needless to say I was much more careful with my new Xtracycle set up,
      but time and my need to haul things just could not prevent the
      inevitable. Although I never felt that swaying feeling again, I would
      routinely inspect my FreeRadical frame for cracks, and sure enough
      eventually I noticed one developing. I felt so bad about breaking my
      baby again and guilty about possibly contacting Xtracycle for yet
      another FreeRadical replacement, that I never told anyone there. By that
      time I had my FreeRadical for a number of years and figured I was well
      out of warranty, but considering how awesome they had treated me in the
      past I was pretty sure they would send me yet another one. Regardless I
      never mentioned it. By that time I new the Big Dummy was going to be
      released, so I figured I could wait to just buy one directly from them
      to solve my problem.
      To keep my ride going though, I decided to temporarily patch up the
      problem myself. I did not know how to weld, and I knew the FreeRadical
      tubing might be too thin to properly weld to anyway, so I bought a foot
      length of pipe from the hardware store and about four stainless steel
      hose clamps. I then used a metal cutter/grinder to cut the pipe
      lengthwise to fashion a brace like a person might use to support a
      broken leg in an emergency situation. It worked amazingly well, and in
      fact I managed to haul the largest load I ever carried on my bike with
      that set up. See for yourself:

      http://www.cranksgiving.net/XtraLoads/LunarLoad-Angle.jpg
      http://www.cranksgiving.net/XtraLoads/LunarLoad-Back.jpg

      It was a crazy load, and I would never do it again, but only when I had
      the bike locked up at my destination and was taking those photos did I
      remember my FreeRadical frame had a crack in it with a homemade brace
      supporting all that weight. After the load was unloaded though I
      inspected the frame (both sides), and though I did not want to temp fate
      by taking off the brace, everything seemed fine.
      By this time I had stopped messengering and knew I would be moving to
      Pennsylvania, so I needed to save money instead of splurging on a brand
      new Big Dummy. It was only when my bike itself tore to shreds behind the
      head-tube a couple of years later that I bought the Big Dummy I still
      have now.

      So, in your own case, like Pete said, if your FreeRadical is still
      under warranty, then I would think Xtracycle would honor it by sending
      you a replacement. If you are out of warranty though, then unfortunately
      I can not say for sure they would replace it. I think in my own case the
      Xtracycle crew was super cool with me because I was an early adopter of
      Xtracycle, and definitely the first messenger riding a long-tail cargo
      bike in New York City. I know several people actually bought Xtracycle
      gear because of seeing my ride and having me rave on and on about it, so
      in a way Xtracycle and I supported each other.

      Ride safe,
      _TONE_


    • David Forbes
      Pete, Thanks for the information. I ve already hooked up with a local builder to work on it tomorrow. I ll show him your frame mod. ... -- David Forbes, Tucson
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 4, 2013
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        Pete,

        Thanks for the information. I've already hooked up with a local builder
        to work on it tomorrow. I'll show him your frame mod.


        On 10/2/13 6:54 PM, Pete B wrote:
        >
        >
        > David.
        >
        > Unfortunately cracking around the dropout
        > is a rather common occurrence for anyone using the FreeRad to haul
        > heavy loads full time.
        >
        > For some users, Xtracycle replaced them under warranty. Not sure if this
        > is still the case but it is worth asking.
        >
        > My 2004 FreeRad broke about mid 2007 (I regularly hauled stupid big
        > loads) but as I had no warranty, I got a local frame repairer
        > to fix mine. I also asked him to add two trusses to support the rear of the frame
        >


        --
        David Forbes, Tucson AZ
      • Cara Lin Bridgman
        Hey Tone, Huge congrats on your recognition for cranksgiving! Speaking of cracks on free-radicals and bike frames, how are your aerospoke wheels holding up (in
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 4, 2013
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          Hey Tone,

          Huge congrats on your recognition for cranksgiving!

          Speaking of cracks on free-radicals and bike frames, how are your
          aerospoke wheels holding up (in your picture, linked below)? They're
          carbon fiber, right? Carbon fiber, like aluminum, can break suddenly
          and catastrophically, so how are they doing on your bike? Aren't you
          still on the first set of wheels? If so, how many years have you been
          using them?

          Just last week, I saw my first aluminum or metal wheels following the
          aerospoke design. I should have gotten a picture while I could...

          CL

          On 10/03/2013 14:06, Tone wrote:
          > http://www.cranksgiving.net/XtraLoads/LunarLoad-Angle.jpg
        • David Chase
          ... I have zero experience with carbon fiber, but a fair amount with fiberglass from my coastal youth, and fiberglass cannot be superior with respect to
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 5, 2013
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            On 2013-10-05, at 12:54 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman <cara.lin@...> wrote:
            > Speaking of cracks on free-radicals and bike frames, how are your
            > aerospoke wheels holding up (in your picture, linked below)? They're
            > carbon fiber, right? Carbon fiber, like aluminum, can break suddenly
            > and catastrophically, so how are they doing on your bike?

            I have zero experience with carbon fiber, but a fair amount with fiberglass from
            my coastal youth, and fiberglass cannot be superior with respect to catastrophic
            failure ("glass", after all).

            The problem is (mostly) not the material, the problem is the weight weenies, who
            try to use too little of it (note that it may have unpleasant lack-of-flex properties if
            used to excess). Boats are built from fiberglass, motorboats, sailboats, you name it.
            They hold up fine in the face of all sorts of abuse, in some cases for decades.

            If you use it to excess, it's incredibly strong. There's a variety of boat called a "Sun Cat"
            (cat rig sailboat, designed for shallow Florida coastal waters and rapidly changing weather).
            My dad has #10, one man can horse the boat around on wet grass to work on it.
            I helped load #4 into the water -- they weren't sure how much to use on the first few boats,
            so they used a lot -- and it took six men and teenage boys to move it. The owner said
            he ran it into rocks by mistake once -- no problem.

            But you have to use enough of it, else you will be sorry.

            David
          • Tone
            Cara, Thanks for the congratulations. Personally, I do not think it is that big of a deal, but I never started Cranksgiving for any kind of recognition.
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 8, 2013
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              Cara,

              Thanks for the congratulations. Personally, I do not think it is that
              big of a deal, but I never started Cranksgiving for any kind of
              recognition. Anyone, who really knows me in the NYC messenger scene,
              knows I usually helped out in some capacity, major or minor, with
              numerous courier events. I tended to be the sober guy behind the scenes,
              and felt similarly when I did Cranksgiving. Although, the difference was
              I got to directly order people around at my own Cranksgiving races.

              The main positive for me about being recognized for Cranksgiving was I
              had a paid trip with accommodations to Las Vegas and InterBike, both of
              which I had never been to. After experiencing both though, I do not know
              if I would ever go again unless everything was paid for. I guess Vegas
              and the "wheeling and dealing" that happens at the convention just rubs
              me the wrong way.



              Speaking of InterBike and the Aeropsoke topic you are inquiring about,
              I saw some five-spoked rigid wheels made out of aluminum at InterBike.
              Perhaps they were the same kind, which you saw last week. At the
              convention I was able to lift up the metal five-spoked wheel, but I
              could not be sure if they were indeed heavier than Aerospoke wheels, as
              I suspected. They did not have tires mounted on them so I could not be
              sure, and even though I looked at the weight in the specifications
              listed on their display, I do not remember what it was because I am not
              one to really knit-pick over the weight of my bike.

              I was not all that impressed, so I did not linger long to find out what
              the manufacturers suggested retail price might be. I think it would only
              be worth if if they were considerably less expensive than carbon fiber
              wheels like Aerospokes. Even then, I would prefer to wait and see how
              truly durable they are from reviews and reports of end users after
              actually using them. I also apologize because I definitely do not recall
              what those metal wheels were called or their brand name, etc. However,
              perhaps that is a fair assessment of how unimpressed I was at their product.



              To finally address your main question about my Aerospokes, they are
              doing fine, and they are pretty much the same ones I had years ago. I
              say pretty much because I did have a non-disc brake Aerospoke wheel
              years ago while I was a messenger, but I literally blew it out from
              braking with rim-based brake pads. It was winter and I kept my bike
              locked up outdoors, so after working all day out in the cold and finally
              getting home I had no desire to do proper "routine" maintenance on my
              bike in the freezing dark. That of course included wiping off the grit
              and snow-melting chemical salts from my brake pads. Eventually one day
              toward the end of winter I was braking while riding down fifth Avenue in
              the Flat-Iron district, and the grinding action had built up enough over
              time to slice right through my rims like a can opener. My tire was cut
              into as was the blown inner tube. Upon closer inspection and a bit of a
              wiggle from just the pressure of my fingers, a ring of rim snapped right
              off of one side and the wheel was completely useless.

              When I first "upgraded" from regular spoked wheels to carbon fiber
              wheels to avoid dealing with truing my spokes and make it easier to pass
              through my kryptonite chain when constantly locking up my bike, I had
              gotten a set of "Spins." They were a three spoked carbon fiber rigid
              wheel, but much less expensive than Aerospokes. Not surprisingly, there
              was a reason for their considerably lower price, and the company went
              out of business years ago. I forget exactly why I upgraded yet again
              from the "Spins" to Aerospokes, but I do remember having the slightest
              feeling of vibration or "fluttering" while riding on the Spins. In my
              opinion that was caused by the wide space between the spokes, which gave
              way ever so slightly every time the wheel was in a position where the
              empty arch had to support all the weight. Naturally the "fluttering"
              seemed to speed up the faster I biked. As annoying as it sounds, it was
              actually kind of soothing, but I would never trust a set of Spins under
              a loaded cargo bike!

              I also seem to recall upgrading from Spins to Aerospokes around the
              time I became a long tail cargo bike rider with my first Xtracycle, some
              time in 2000 or 2001. I think that might have been partly because the
              FreeRadical had disc brake mounts, which my bike frame and the Spins did
              not support. Therefore, I got rid of my Spins and bought a set of
              Aerospokes. However, I only got disc brakes in the rear because of the
              expense of both the much higher priced disc-brake Aerospoke version and
              the more expensive Avid BB7 disc brakes. At the time I would have also
              had to spend even more money on also replacing my front fork to get one
              with disc brake mounts, so with all the other expenses I bought a
              non-disc brake Aeropsoke wheel for the front.

              Of course, you already know what happened to that non-disc brake
              Aerospoke wheel. If I recall correctly, I was lucky in finding out about
              the Aerospoke company's warranty policies. If I did not inform them of
              using my Aerospokes during commercial use, especially as a cargo bike
              messenger, I was able to ship back the damaged sliced rim, then they
              would replace it for me as long as I also paid for shipping of the new
              rim back to me. Of course, I never wanted to deal with the possibility
              of a pricey Aerospoke wheel being worn out again from rim brakes, so I
              paid the additional amount to upgrade to the disc brake version. That
              obviously required me to spend the extra money for a new disc brake
              compatible front fork from my local bike shop. Fortunately, I was able
              to get a good deal because I wanted to get a rigid fork, and at the time
              suspension forks seemed to be the craze so they had plenty of rigid
              stock forks laying around in the shop, which had been replaced by
              customer-requested suspension fork upgrades.



              To address some of your more specific questions...

              Q1) How are your Aerospoke wheels holding up?

              I would say my Aerospokes are holding up very well considering I have
              been riding on them for about ten years now, and under particularly
              extreme conditions at times, whether that is due to the weather or the
              cargo loads being carried. In my opinion the only noticeable wear is a
              slight fading from dark grey to a lighter grey, which appears similar to
              a layer of dust even after a thorough washing. I do not know for sure if
              that is due to sunlight bleaching, natural exposure to the atmosphere,
              or perhaps chain and dirt kick-up wearing down the factory-new outer
              most finished/polished layer.

              Q2) They're carbon fiber, right?

              I believe they are carbon fiber, but I seem to recall them technically
              referred to as poly-carbon fiber. I am no expert or chemist, so it might
              be the same exact thing. Of course there is a chance it is not. Perhaps
              Aerospoke uses a slightly different proprietary mixture than the typical
              carbon fiber when molding their wheels, so they can not officially refer
              to it as carbon fiber I do not know for sure.

              Q3) Carbon fiber, like aluminum, can break suddenly
              and catastrophically, so how are they doing on your bike?

              I think I pretty much answered this already, but the question does
              remind me of something in particular. It was an incident where I was
              moving my wife's furniture from her old apartment to mine back while I
              was still living in Brooklyn, NY. I had a number of items loaded up on
              that trip, but I remember one of them was a rocking chair. It was not
              the traditional type, but rather the kind with a static base and a
              floating seat, which I believe is referred to as a glider rather than a
              rocking chair. Anyway, that meant it was considerably heavier and more
              bulky than a traditional rocking chair.

              While riding to my place with the loaded bike, I was passing between a
              limo stuck at a red light and a parked black SUV. It was a relatively
              narrow space considering I was riding an Xtracycle with two
              wide-loaders, but from experience I knew I would fit. Unfortunately, I
              did not notice the SUV's front tire was jutting out slightly as if the
              wheel was turned to quickly pull out of the parking spot once the driver
              was back in his/her vehicle. I was therefore totally surprised when I
              felt a sudden harsh bounce against the rear right side of my bike. I
              went crashing down to the pavement, and at first I thought someone had
              deliberately kicked my bike, perhaps the driver of the SUV, who did not
              want to risk my bike scratching up his/her paint job.

              When I did not see anyone there I finally noticed the SUV's tire
              sticking out. My paranoid mindset about someone kicking my bike made me
              think the driver of the even more expensive limo would freak out at me.
              I was particularly vulnerable since it was awkward trying to get out
              from under my crashed loaded bike in such a narrow space. Luckily, the
              limo driver was genuinely more concerned at my well being, even when he
              could see a streak in the side of his paint job. It turned out the
              glider chair had bumped and streaked down against his limo, but since it
              was a wooden chair the streak was not serious and could be buffed out. I
              did not know that at the time, so I was more than apologetic and
              insistent of my intact good health, hoping the driver would not notice
              the mark on his limo and might prefer to flee the scene before any cops
              showed up. After that the driver got back in his car and drove off with
              a smile.

              At the time I was more shocked by the driver's positive attitude
              considering I was at fault and every driver I had ever encountered in
              any remotely similar situation would have flipped out. In any case, my
              disbelief in the pleasant reaction of the driver caused me to not pay
              attention to my own bicycle's condition or that of the load I was
              carrying. Soon enough though I noticed the glider chair was broken and
              my front wheel was slightly untrue in a spot. Needless to say the untrue
              Aerospoke worried me a great deal, but I could not do anything about it.
              I did a quick inspection of the wheel to see if it was dangerously
              cracked anywhere, but when I could not find any defects I just nervously
              continued on my way.

              Ever since then my front wheel has been slightly untrue, but no cracks
              or further complications have developed, and since I have disc brakes I
              do not have to worry about rim brakes rubbing an untrue wheel. Keep in
              mind that accident happened around 2005, and not only am I still using
              those same Aerospokes, but on those same wheels I have also carried
              numerous loads including that massive lumber haul in the "LunarLoad"
              photos. To get to the point of the long story, despite inflicting
              apparent damage on my Aerospoke during a collision involving a very
              loaded Xtracycle, the only outcome was what a picky cyclist might
              consider cosmetic. No one would ever notice the wheel being untrue
              unless they looked at it while spinning it in place.

              Q4) Aren't you still on the first set of wheels?
              ...and...
              Q5) If so, how many years have you been using them?

              I believe I also answered both of these questions already, but just to
              be thorough, technically I am still riding on my first rear Aeropsoke
              wheel, but I have been riding on a set of front and rear disc-brake
              compatible Aeropsoke wheels for about ten years now. Apart from one or
              two bicycles and the Xtracycle, I would say my Aerospokes have been one
              of my best investments when it comes to cycling gear. In fact, they have
              outlasted two FreeRadical frames and the Univega bike, which the
              FreeRadicals were mounted to.



              Come to think of it, I might be wrong about riding on my original rear
              Aerospoke wheel. There was one other "possible" problem with my
              Aerospokes. Again it was toward the end of a winter and also after
              having the Xtracycle attached to my bike. I started noticing chain
              skipping when I would really pedal hard. For instance, it might occur
              when I was loaded down and reaching a slight slope or it might happen
              when I was first starting out and needed to put some weight on the
              pedals. The problem seemed to get progressively worse, and actually got
              to the point where I would usually have to pedal in a lower gear or need
              to push off a curb or the ground with my feet to get up some speed
              before pedaling.

              When I finally went to my bike shop to fix the problem, they
              immediately suggested swapping out my gears and drive chain in case the
              skipping was due to normal wear and tear, which in my case was very
              likely. However, that did not entirely fix the problem, so they were not
              exactly sure what it could be. They had never worked on an Xtracycle
              before nor did they have much experience working on Aerospoke wheels,
              which went through as much winter usage as mine did. Since they had
              dealt with longer drive chains on tandem bicycles they suspected it was
              not the added chain length of the Xtracycle though, so they opened up
              the rear hub of the Aerospoke. This was a bit of a hassle because my
              bike shop had to special order a custom tool from Aerospoke to properly
              disassemble the hub. Luckily, they did not pass on the expense to me.

              Upon opening up the rear hub and separating it from the carbon fiber
              part of the wheel/rim, they noticed some moisture and grit inside. They
              could only guess grit along with moisture, possibly from condensation
              or snow/rain infiltration, had gotten trapped inside the hub. With the
              added strain of constant stop-n-go NYC traffic while being a cargo bike
              messenger, they suspected the moisture and grit may have slightly worn
              the carbon fiber part of the wheel enough to cause a tiny bit of play.
              There was also the chance the moisture was freezing and expanding enough
              to cause the play. Either way the slight play might have been enough to
              allow the chain to skip. Naturally, once the chain was susceptible to
              skipping it would wear itself and the gears down much faster than
              normal, thus compounding the problem.

              Unfortunately, I do not completely recall what the outcome of the
              situation was. I just remember my bike shop took care of it and did not
              pass on any charges from Aerospoke. I also remember my preference for
              the bike shop staff dealing with Aeropsoke instead of me so that I would
              not have to reveal my profession as a cargo bike messenger, which might
              void Aerospoke's warranty. I do think my bike shop did get some kind of
              replacement from Aerospoke, but I do not think it was a full wheel. If
              anything, it might have just been the hub or even some part inside the hub.

              I definitely recall being worried about having the same reoccurring
              problem with my rear Aerospoke in the upcoming winters. Fortunately, it
              has never came up again. For all I know the chain skipping problem might
              have just been my derailleur struggling with the chain tension of the
              Xtracycle's longer chain. It could have also been the choice of drive
              chain I was using at the time.

              There was a period of time several years ago when I was trying to use
              stainless steel Connex/Wippermann brand drive chains. My logic figured a
              stainless steel drive chain would be rust resistant, and therefore fit
              into my low maintenance ideal of a bike. Like I hoped, the stainless
              steel chain did not rust. Unfortunately, the stainless steel chain was
              just not strong enough to handle the torque requirements of a loaded
              Xtracycle. I found this out the hard way when chain links would break,
              but luckily I carried a Topeak Alien multi-tool, which had a chain
              breaker built into it. When a chain break would happen on the road I
              would pop out the snapped link, shorten the chain, and switch to a lower
              gear if necessary.

              Eventually, I realized there was a pattern of chain breakage when using
              the stainless steel chains, so I returned to using standard drive
              chains. Now the Stainless Steel chains are no longer on my bike, but I
              still use them. I thoroughly cleaned them all up, and recycled them into
              industrial looking jewelry. For a couple of years I actually wore a
              length of the stainless steel drive chain around my own neck as a
              choker. Since I could not be entirely sure whether the torque
              requirements of the Xtracycle was snapping my drive chain, I figured if
              my standard chain totally failed, then I would have a back up around my
              neck. I no longer wear a drive chain as a necklace, but since then I
              bought one or two new stainless steel drive chains to make more finished
              looking jewelry for girlfriends/wife. Other than the industrial
              aesthetic appeal, what I like about them is a person can even wear the
              jewelry in the shower, rain, or pool without it developing rust!

              In any case, I guess I can not say for sure whether I am on my first
              "set" of Aerospoke wheels. I know the front wheel was not my first
              wheel, but there is a slight chance the rear wheel or at least part of
              it is not my original rear Aerospoke wheel. Regardless, I still know I
              had my current Aeropsoke wheels for around ten years now. I am also
              quite certain my customarily lengthy e-mail most likely has more than
              covered your original inquiries, so I will stop contributing to any eye
              strain you may be experiencing from staring at a screen for so long.

              Best wishes and ride safe,
              _TONE_
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