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Re: [rootsradicals] Carrying a ladder

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  • thom chiaramonte
    when I carry anything oblong or weighted on one side, I counter-balance the load with a weight in the opposing side s freeloader.
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 10, 2012
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      when I carry anything oblong or weighted on one side, I counter-balance the load with a weight in the opposing side's freeloader. 

      On Dec 10, 2012, at 3:18 PM, "kest918" <kest918@...> wrote:

       

      What's the longest ladder that you guys have carried? Do any of you have any special tips or tricks? I have access to a 20' folding ladder aluminum. I have a set of wideloaders I can use but its just one ladder and it offsets my load enough that it makes the ride shaky. Thanks, Mike


    • dr2chase@mac.com
      You re going to get oscillation, it s pretty much unavoidable (you and the ladder form a giant tuning fork). Worst case for me was 4 8 4x4s:
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 10, 2012
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        You're going to get oscillation, it's pretty much unavoidable (you and the ladder form a giant tuning fork). Worst case for me was 4 8' 4x4s:

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr2chase/sets/72157630361381850/

        It was an upper-body workout; I could damp the oscillations, but I was unable to stop them.

        David

        On 2012-12-10, at 6:18 PM, kest918 <kest918@...> wrote:

        > What's the longest ladder that you guys have carried? Do any of you have any special tips or tricks? I have access to a 20' folding ladder aluminum. I have a set of wideloaders I can use but its just one ladder and it offsets my load enough that it makes the ride shaky. Thanks, Mike
        >
        > __.
      • thom chiaramonte
        what an awesome photo set. I am preparing to bring home 8 2x4x8 and a number of smaller units, and was hoping to do it by bike, but without wide loaders I
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 10, 2012
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          what an awesome photo set. I am preparing to bring home 8 2x4x8' and a number of smaller units, and was hoping to do it by bike, but without wide loaders I don't think I can rig a stable enough harness. I think those are my next xtracycle investment. 

          On Dec 10, 2012, at 3:51 PM, dr2chase@... wrote:

           

          You're going to get oscillation, it's pretty much unavoidable (you and the ladder form a giant tuning fork). Worst case for me was 4 8' 4x4s:

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr2chase/sets/72157630361381850/

          It was an upper-body workout; I could damp the oscillations, but I was unable to stop them.

          David

          On 2012-12-10, at 6:18 PM, kest918 <kest918@...> wrote:

          > What's the longest ladder that you guys have carried? Do any of you have any special tips or tricks? I have access to a 20' folding ladder aluminum. I have a set of wideloaders I can use but its just one ladder and it offsets my load enough that it makes the ride shaky. Thanks, Mike
          >
          > __.


        • Tone
          I have carried only a six foot ladder, but I have carried 12’ long planks of lumber from Home Depot or Lowes. I think they were 1”x10”s and several of
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 12, 2012
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            I have carried only a six foot ladder, but I have carried 12’ long planks
            of lumber from Home Depot or Lowes. I think they were 1”x10”s and several
            of them at a time on a few separate occasions. Of course, I have two wide
            loaders and two long loaders! Having at least one of each of those is
            essential when carrying something long.

            As someone pointed out, being able to haul a counter load on the other
            side of the bike helps immensely to avoid oscillation. I always carry
            with me a 3’ kryptonite chain, and usually I also have a large messenger
            bag of gear and tools everywhere I bike. Therefore, if I ever haul an
            unbalanced load I always try to balance out my load with my bag and chain
            as a counter-weight.

            If you have two pairs of wide loaders and long loaders, you can obviously
            counter balance half your load with the other half of the load. As
            David’s photos show, the split long load will come together in the back
            and spread toward the front. This becomes very exaggerated the longer
            your load is. With 12’ long items they will touch several feet behind
            your bike, so you might want to bring something bright and colorful to
            hang and trail off the end of the load. I usually also clipped my
            blinking red light on the back. Binding the load as much as possible is
            extremely helpful as well. If you have loose boards of wood, then
            anything that helps tighten it up as one moving mass is helpful,
            otherwise bumps in the road might shift them around and sway you along
            your way.

            With a dually-split long 12’ load, you will also notice how wide your
            moving mass will become. It can get to the point where you really will
            genuinely have to take up the space of a full car lane. Again, streamers
            hanging from your protruding sides will help non-expectant drivers from
            colliding with your load. You definitely do NOT want to even get slightly
            bumped while hauling a heavy bulky moving load. Once I was riding by a
            parallel parked car, which had its front driver-side wheel turned out so
            it would be easier to drive out of the parking space. Unfortunately it
            was sticking out just enough and I misjudged the space I needed to pass
            by. I happened to be moving my future wife’s stuff to my own apartment,
            and the load included a wooden rocking chair. When my wide loader just
            bumped into that tire I got bounced violently over and crashed on the
            other side. The chair cracked slightly, and my front Aerospoke carbon
            fiber wheel, which never needs truing, became just a bit out of true.
            Fortunately, I use disc brakes, so rubbing rim brakes were never a worry.

            Mike, in your own case of carrying the ladder, I would consider a couple
            of options. First off though, you said it was a 20’ folding ladder. Did
            you mean it was a collapsing ladder because a typical A-frame expandable
            ladder would still be around 20’ when folded? Personally, I am not sure
            how I would ever feel about carrying something that is 20’ long. 8’ is
            totally fine, and 10’ is certainly manageable, but I think 12’ is my
            comfort limit. I have hauled some serious loads too, so I have some first
            hand experience. Something that is 20’ would most likely extend
            diagonally through a whole lane of traffic and might “poke” into the
            space of at least one adjoining lane.
            With not being completely clear on what kind of ladder it is, have you
            ever considered dismantling it so that it can be self-balanced on either
            side of your bike? I certainly have hauled unbalanced loads on frequent
            numerous occasions, but any ladder, which is 20’ would have considerable
            weight as well as be awkwardly bulky. Just to give you some perspective,
            I use to be a cargo bike messenger in NYC, and regularly kept only one
            wide-loader and long-loader installed during my work days so I could
            still maneuver through the dense traffic. I usually kept the other set
            tucked in the other side’s Free-loaders as a back up for extra carrying
            capacity, but generally I always hauled everything on the non-drive-chain
            side. A 6’-8’ ladder would be no big deal, but a twenty footer is
            something entirely different.
            If the ladder you are talking about does happen to be one of those
            expandable A-frame style ladders, maybe you could actually open it up
            while having it placed on your bike. In this position the ladder would be
            down on its side with its top facing the rear and each of it two foot
            ends spread out in front and to the sides of your bike. Regardless
            though, 20’ is twenty long feet. At least it is aluminum and not an old
            fashioned wooden ladder because then it would be so much heavier. If you
            can share photos of the type of ladder you have, even if it is just a
            link to an on-line store’s web site with a similar styled ladder, then I
            could provide much better advice.

            Ride Safe,
            _TONE_
          • Mike
            http://www.lowes.com/pd_78463-287-MT-22_0__?productId=1101083&Ntt=werner+folding+22%27+ladder&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dwerner%2Bfolding%2B22%2527%2Bladder&face
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 12, 2012
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              http://www.lowes.com/pd_78463-287-MT-22_0__?productId=1101083&Ntt=werner+folding+22%27+ladder&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dwerner%2Bfolding%2B22%2527%2Bladder&facetInfo=

              Here's a pic and description, sorry for commercial link. I should have said I was more worried about the unbalanced load than the length as it folds up relatively small for a  ladder. Thank you all for your replies.
               
              Mike


              From: Tone <tone@...>
              To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 5:36 PM
              Subject: RE: [rootsradicals] Carrying a ladder

               
              I have carried only a six foot ladder, but I have carried 12’ long planks
              of lumber from Home Depot or Lowes. I think they were 1”x10”s and several
              of them at a time on a few separate occasions. Of course, I have two wide
              loaders and two long loaders! Having at least one of each of those is
              essential when carrying something long.

              As someone pointed out, being able to haul a counter load on the other
              side of the bike helps immensely to avoid oscillation. I always carry
              with me a 3’ kryptonite chain, and usually I also have a large messenger
              bag of gear and tools everywhere I bike. Therefore, if I ever haul an
              unbalanced load I always try to balance out my load with my bag and chain
              as a counter-weight.

              If you have two pairs of wide loaders and long loaders, you can obviously
              counter balance half your load with the other half of the load. As
              David’s photos show, the split long load will come together in the back
              and spread toward the front. This becomes very exaggerated the longer
              your load is. With 12’ long items they will touch several feet behind
              your bike, so you might want to bring something bright and colorful to
              hang and trail off the end of the load. I usually also clipped my
              blinking red light on the back. Binding the load as much as possible is
              extremely helpful as well. If you have loose boards of wood, then
              anything that helps tighten it up as one moving mass is helpful,
              otherwise bumps in the road might shift them around and sway you along
              your way.

              With a dually-split long 12’ load, you will also notice how wide your
              moving mass will become. It can get to the point where you really will
              genuinely have to take up the space of a full car lane. Again, streamers
              hanging from your protruding sides will help non-expectant drivers from
              colliding with your load. You definitely do NOT want to even get slightly
              bumped while hauling a heavy bulky moving load. Once I was riding by a
              parallel parked car, which had its front driver-side wheel turned out so
              it would be easier to drive out of the parking space. Unfortunately it
              was sticking out just enough and I misjudged the space I needed to pass
              by. I happened to be moving my future wife’s stuff to my own apartment,
              and the load included a wooden rocking chair. When my wide loader just
              bumped into that tire I got bounced violently over and crashed on the
              other side. The chair cracked slightly, and my front Aerospoke carbon
              fiber wheel, which never needs truing, became just a bit out of true.
              Fortunately, I use disc brakes, so rubbing rim brakes were never a worry.

              Mike, in your own case of carrying the ladder, I would consider a couple
              of options. First off though, you said it was a 20’ folding ladder. Did
              you mean it was a collapsing ladder because a typical A-frame expandable
              ladder would still be around 20’ when folded? Personally, I am not sure
              how I would ever feel about carrying something that is 20’ long. 8’ is
              totally fine, and 10’ is certainly manageable, but I think 12’ is my
              comfort limit. I have hauled some serious loads too, so I have some first
              hand experience. Something that is 20’ would most likely extend
              diagonally through a whole lane of traffic and might “poke” into the
              space of at least one adjoining lane.
              With not being completely clear on what kind of ladder it is, have you
              ever considered dismantling it so that it can be self-balanced on either
              side of your bike? I certainly have hauled unbalanced loads on frequent
              numerous occasions, but any ladder, which is 20’ would have considerable
              weight as well as be awkwardly bulky. Just to give you some perspective,
              I use to be a cargo bike messenger in NYC, and regularly kept only one
              wide-loader and long-loader installed during my work days so I could
              still maneuver through the dense traffic. I usually kept the other set
              tucked in the other side’s Free-loaders as a back up for extra carrying
              capacity, but generally I always hauled everything on the non-drive-chain
              side. A 6’-8’ ladder would be no big deal, but a twenty footer is
              something entirely different.
              If the ladder you are talking about does happen to be one of those
              expandable A-frame style ladders, maybe you could actually open it up
              while having it placed on your bike. In this position the ladder would be
              down on its side with its top facing the rear and each of it two foot
              ends spread out in front and to the sides of your bike. Regardless
              though, 20’ is twenty long feet. At least it is aluminum and not an old
              fashioned wooden ladder because then it would be so much heavier. If you
              can share photos of the type of ladder you have, even if it is just a
              link to an on-line store’s web site with a similar styled ladder, then I
              could provide much better advice.

              Ride Safe,
              _TONE_



            • dr2chase@mac.com
              ... 47 lbs should not be a problem if you have a wideloader. If you re worried about balance, get 4 gallon jugs, fill them with water, ride over 2+2, ride
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 12, 2012
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                On 2012-12-12, at 9:27 PM, Mike <kest918@...> wrote:

                >
                > http://www.lowes.com/pd_78463-287-MT-22_0__?productId=1101083&Ntt=werner+folding+22%27+ladder&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dwerner%2Bfolding%2B22%2527%2Bladder&facetInfo=
                >
                > Here's a pic and description, sorry for commercial link. I should have said I was more worried about the unbalanced load than the length as it folds up relatively small for a ladder. Thank you all for your replies.

                47 lbs should not be a problem if you have a wideloader. If you're worried about balance, get 4 gallon jugs, fill them with water, ride over 2+2, ride home 4+ladder.

                Hard to say whether you should use a longloader or not with this; the longloader kicks it out to the side, which gives it more moment-arm down, but sticking 2-3 feet of ladder out the back is also bad for handling.

                If you lack a longloader, just get a lightweight lump of something (empty 5 gallon bucket) to use as a standoff, and cinch it down tight.

                David
              • Tone
                Mike, I have almost the same exact style ladder. My ladder’s brand name might be different, but it definitely looks pretty identical. Personally I would
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 15, 2012
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                  Mike,

                  I have almost the same exact style ladder. My ladder’s brand name might
                  be different, but it definitely looks pretty identical. Personally I
                  would probably just try riding with it as an unbalanced load all on one
                  side. As I said before, I do carry a 3’ chain as a lock and a messenger
                  bag of gear, so I would at least offset the weight a little on the other
                  side. The unbalanced load might result in me leaning slightly to one side
                  to compensate for the bike’s desire to drift or lean in the direction of
                  the weight, but I believe it is manageable.

                  Several years ago I picked up an artificial Xmas tree from a manufacturer
                  in New Jersey. The box with the three or so dismantled sections was
                  almost the size of a gun safe. It weighed about eighty pounds! I did
                  manage to tie it off on one side. Fortunately, I also had to buy their 30
                  pound base for the tree, so that along with my chain and gear bag helped
                  compensate for the imbalance. Admittedly, it was a slow ride back to
                  Brooklyn. Instead of taking the PATH train, which would involves lots of
                  steps, escalators, and/or tight spaced elevators we decided to take a
                  ferry across the Hudson River to Manhattan. It was about two or three
                  times the cost, but not having to deal with unloading the box and messing
                  with stairs was a life saver. The scenery and fresh air of the bay also
                  made it so much more pleasant. After land fall my biggest obstacle
                  getting home was going up the arch of one of the East River bridges.

                  Back to the topic of your specific ladder load, I do think you have
                  another totally reasonable option, which avoids most of the imbalance
                  issues. If your ladder is truly like mine, then you can separate the two
                  “A” frame sections from each other. According to the Lowes description
                  that would be the two “scaffold bases”, as if you intended to rest a
                  plank of wood across the two. With those two segments separated and kept
                  shut (not folded open like an “A”) you should not have much problem
                  putting one on each side. Just make sure to strap it all in good. I would
                  imagine having long loaders would help, but I do not think it would be
                  absolutely necessary.

                  Ride safe,
                  _TONE_
                • kest918@yahoo.com
                  Thanks, Tone as usual your replies are well thought out and articulated. Mine does not separate but would make life a lot easier if it did. I ve strapped this
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 15, 2012
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                    Thanks, Tone as usual your replies are well thought out and articulated. Mine does not separate but would make life a lot easier if it did. I've strapped this thing on and rolled around the parking lot with it but was hesitant to enter the roadway without a little more experience with it strapped on. Now the second part of my problem is that was some months ago and I've since sold my Big Dummy and am in the process of building an xtracycle. Backwards I know but I needed the cash. So now I have a little more oscillation to deal with. 
                     Presently I am in the planning stages of the build. I have an early 90's trek 950 to use as my donor bike and my old Free Rad frame from before the BD. I'm kicking around some ideas to build a "contractor's van" to use for my handyman side work. I don't have vracks or freeloaders and I don't know that I will purchase any just yet. I do have the wideloaders and a homemade long loader. Since most of what I carry is painting and drywall tools I can put those inside milk crates on the other side of the ladder. I'm working out a way to attach a tool box using the h rack ports. This will enable me to store any bungees and locks etc. the things I normally kept in the pockets of my freeloaders. It will also give me a way to utilize the long loader.
                     It's a work in progress but I'm having fun with the challenge. Again, thank you all for the replies! Mike

                    On Dec 15, 2012, at 1:39 PM, "Tone" <tone@...> wrote:

                     

                    Mike,

                    I have almost the same exact style ladder. My ladder’s brand name might
                    be different, but it definitely looks pretty identical. Personally I
                    would probably just try riding with it as an unbalanced load all on one
                    side. As I said before, I do carry a 3’ chain as a lock and a messenger
                    bag of gear, so I would at least offset the weight a little on the other
                    side. The unbalanced load might result in me leaning slightly to one side
                    to compensate for the bike’s desire to drift or lean in the direction of
                    the weight, but I believe it is manageable.

                    Several years ago I picked up an artificial Xmas tree from a manufacturer
                    in New Jersey. The box with the three or so dismantled sections was
                    almost the size of a gun safe. It weighed about eighty pounds! I did
                    manage to tie it off on one side. Fortunately, I also had to buy their 30
                    pound base for the tree, so that along with my chain and gear bag helped
                    compensate for the imbalance. Admittedly, it was a slow ride back to
                    Brooklyn. Instead of taking the PATH train, which would involves lots of
                    steps, escalators, and/or tight spaced elevators we decided to take a
                    ferry across the Hudson River to Manhattan. It was about two or three
                    times the cost, but not having to deal with unloading the box and messing
                    with stairs was a life saver. The scenery and fresh air of the bay also
                    made it so much more pleasant. After land fall my biggest obstacle
                    getting home was going up the arch of one of the East River bridges.

                    Back to the topic of your specific ladder load, I do think you have
                    another totally reasonable option, which avoids most of the imbalance
                    issues. If your ladder is truly like mine, then you can separate the two
                    “A” frame sections from each other. According to the Lowes description
                    that would be the two “scaffold bases”, as if you intended to rest a
                    plank of wood across the two. With those two segments separated and kept
                    shut (not folded open like an “A”) you should not have much problem
                    putting one on each side. Just make sure to strap it all in good. I would
                    imagine having long loaders would help, but I do not think it would be
                    absolutely necessary.

                    Ride safe,
                    _TONE_

                  • rlwieneke
                    I was considering building a sidecar wheel for my folding wideloader. It would take the weight from that side out of your balancing with the ladder and the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 15, 2012
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                      I was considering building a sidecar wheel for my folding wideloader. It would take the weight from that side out of your balancing with the ladder and the wideloader would not scrape the ground.

                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, kest918@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks, Tone as usual your replies are well thought out and articulated. Mine does not separate but would make life a lot easier if it did. I've strapped this thing on and rolled around the parking lot with it but was hesitant to enter the roadway without a little more experience with it strapped on. Now the second part of my problem is that was some months ago and I've since sold my Big Dummy and am in the process of building an xtracycle. Backwards I know but I needed the cash. So now I have a little more oscillation to deal with.
                      > Presently I am in the planning stages of the build. I have an early 90's trek 950 to use as my donor bike and my old Free Rad frame from before the BD. I'm kicking around some ideas to build a "contractor's van" to use for my handyman side work. I don't have vracks or freeloaders and I don't know that I will purchase any just yet. I do have the wideloaders and a homemade long loader. Since most of what I carry is painting and drywall tools I can put those inside milk crates on the other side of the ladder. I'm working out a way to attach a tool box using the h rack ports. This will enable me to store any bungees and locks etc. the things I normally kept in the pockets of my freeloaders. It will also give me a way to utilize the long loader.
                      > It's a work in progress but I'm having fun with the challenge. Again, thank you all for the replies! Mike
                      >
                      > On Dec 15, 2012, at 1:39 PM, "Tone" <tone@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Mike,
                      > >
                      > > I have almost the same exact style ladder. My ladder’s brand name might
                      > > be different, but it definitely looks pretty identical. Personally I
                      > > would probably just try riding with it as an unbalanced load all on one
                      > > side. As I said before, I do carry a 3’ chain as a lock and a messenger
                      > > bag of gear, so I would at least offset the weight a little on the other
                      > > side. The unbalanced load might result in me leaning slightly to one side
                      > > to compensate for the bike’s desire to drift or lean in the direction of
                      > > the weight, but I believe it is manageable.
                      > >
                      > > Several years ago I picked up an artificial Xmas tree from a manufacturer
                      > > in New Jersey. The box with the three or so dismantled sections was
                      > > almost the size of a gun safe. It weighed about eighty pounds! I did
                      > > manage to tie it off on one side. Fortunately, I also had to buy their 30
                      > > pound base for the tree, so that along with my chain and gear bag helped
                      > > compensate for the imbalance. Admittedly, it was a slow ride back to
                      > > Brooklyn. Instead of taking the PATH train, which would involves lots of
                      > > steps, escalators, and/or tight spaced elevators we decided to take a
                      > > ferry across the Hudson River to Manhattan. It was about two or three
                      > > times the cost, but not having to deal with unloading the box and messing
                      > > with stairs was a life saver. The scenery and fresh air of the bay also
                      > > made it so much more pleasant. After land fall my biggest obstacle
                      > > getting home was going up the arch of one of the East River bridges.
                      > >
                      > > Back to the topic of your specific ladder load, I do think you have
                      > > another totally reasonable option, which avoids most of the imbalance
                      > > issues. If your ladder is truly like mine, then you can separate the two
                      > > “A” frame sections from each other. According to the Lowes description
                      > > that would be the two “scaffold bases”, as if you intended to rest a
                      > > plank of wood across the two. With those two segments separated and kept
                      > > shut (not folded open like an “A”) you should not have much problem
                      > > putting one on each side. Just make sure to strap it all in good. I would
                      > > imagine having long loaders would help, but I do not think it would be
                      > > absolutely necessary.
                      > >
                      > > Ride safe,
                      > > _TONE_
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
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