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Re: New to the group - building my own Xtracycle

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  • Thaddeus Block
    Hey there, sounds like a great project. couple of recommendations: 1.) Surly open bar is a great handlebar for cargo bikes. I have that bar on my surly big
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 9, 2012
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      Hey there,
      sounds like a great project.
       
      couple of recommendations:
      1.) Surly open bar is a great handlebar for cargo bikes.  I have that bar on my surly big dummy, and it is super duper comfy and responsive.  I commute about 100 miles per week and love it.
       
      2.)  Don't mix old and new chains.  I actually tried that myself when building up my big dummy, and it didn't work well at all.  Try all new chains on your drivetrain, and hopefully it works.  if your cogset is too worn, you may have slippage and then you run into the issue of needing a new 7speed which would be hard to find.... 
       
      3.) For cargo biking, you want your body position to be comfortable and more upright than other bikes in my opinion.  This way you can really look around and be more aware of cars etc....  you are not going for speed records on cargo bikes, so don't worry about going aero!
       
      4.)  Watchamacollars are super expensive, but pretty nice.  if you are on a budget, I'm sure there are good ways to jury rig in on there with hose clamps and shim material. 
       
      5.)  The xtracycle bags are pretty nicely made.  I have the expensive ones and feel that those were worth the investment. 
       
      good luck!
      Thaddeus
       
    • kiltie_celt
      Thanks for the advice so far guys. I m not totally wedded to the trekking bars so I m going to keep looking at other options. I don t think I ll do drop bars,
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 9, 2012
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        Thanks for the advice so far guys. I'm not totally wedded to the trekking bars so I'm going to keep looking at other options. I don't think I'll do drop bars, mainly because I just don't think they'll be quite wide enough. As to the question raised regarding swapping out the cogset and chain rings when changing to a new chain. I can see doing that when you might have several thousand miles on a drivetrain, but since this is a mountain bike drive train, I can tell you that the cogset, chain, and chainrings were all changed around the same time, but back when I didn't really do a whole lot of riding on the bike. At the most, the 7 speed drivetrain as it is right now has probably only got at the most a couple hundred miles on it or maybe a generous 500 at the most. Barely broken in I'd say. I upgraded that stuff about the same time and honestly, I stopped riding that bike pretty soon after. So, I'm not too concerned about the drive train being worn out. Finding 7 speed stuff might be more difficult these days, but I figure if I keep trawling ebay, I can probably find NOS for cheap and I can just buy replacements up.

        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        >
        > I'm new to the group here and would like to ask a couple questions. I'm going to be purchasing my own Xtracycle Free Radical to bolt onto my old long-unused '94 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro mtb. I have a touring bike that is my daily (110+ miles/week), commuter and it has a nice, comfy Ritchey Biomax CX drop bar on it. I think I've see all of about 3 or 4 Xtracycles with drop bars, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that a drop bar, even a wide one, probably doesn't allow for enough control on a heavily loaded bike, correct? So, my first question - drop bars, yes or no? Secondly, if drop bars are out, I'd like to use a trekking bar
        >
        > http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___202446
        >
        > for the extra hand positions. Does anyone else use these? I'm thinking since a trekking bar tends to move the main hand position back slightly that I'd need a shorter stem? The thing is, I'm already having to convert from 1" threaded steerer to one of those thread-to-threadless adapters, along with an adjustable angle stem. My original riding position on the Stumpy as an offroad mtb was with the bar lower than the saddle and a fairly stretched out position. Not comfortable at all for lengthy rides on a heavily laden bike.
        >
        > I run a 110mm adjustable stem on my commuter and it's angled pretty steeply to get the bar close to level with my saddle. I'm going to shoot for a similar riding position on the XtraStumpy. Nashbar sells a Ritchey adjustable stem like I have on my commuter. I'm thinking maybe go with the longest one they sell - 120mm to help account for the way the main riding position on the trekking bar is a couple inches back from where it would be on a normal bar. Sound okay? Any suggestions?
        >
        > I'm using all the old drivetrain components of the Stumpy as well, but being circa '94 they're 7 speed Suntour thumb shifters along with a real Franken-bike set up of an XT rear derailleur on a basic Shimano 7 speed rear cogset. Should I just buy two whole new chains for 7 speed to use rather than trying to use the chain extension that comes with the Xtracycle kit? Finally, does anyone have a good suggestion for an affordable way to secure the rack bars without buying the expensive Watchamacollars?
        >
        > I'm on a pretty limited budget for building this cargo bike so I'm making some things myself like my own wood deck and running boards. I'm still considering sewing my own cargo bags or buying some of the inexpensive Chinese-made touring panniers I've seen on ebay. I'm not above doing a fair amount of engineering of accessories myself, so any suggestions along those lines would be greatly appreciated.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
      • Sean
        Welcome aboard. I ran my first long tail bike for a long time with beat up 80 s diamondback mountain bike frame and a 7 speed drive train. It suited me just
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 16, 2012
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          Welcome aboard. I ran my first long tail bike for a long time with beat up 80's diamondback mountain bike frame and a 7 speed drive train. It suited me just fine. As for handle bars, I have dabbled with a few different bars. My favorites were the On-one Fleegle and my current ones which are the Titec version of a Jeff Jones H-bar. If you have a local bike co-op you might be able to test drive a few till you find the perfect match. Whatever you choose, I would aim for a more upright riding position. On a long tail bike I like my head up so I can enjoy the scenery and the thumbs up from passer byes. 

          Sean

          Sent from my iPad

          On Nov 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...> wrote:

           

          Hello,

          I'm new to the group here and would like to ask a couple questions. I'm going to be purchasing my own Xtracycle Free Radical to bolt onto my old long-unused '94 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro mtb. I have a touring bike that is my daily (110+ miles/week), commuter and it has a nice, comfy Ritchey Biomax CX drop bar on it. I think I've see all of about 3 or 4 Xtracycles with drop bars, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that a drop bar, even a wide one, probably doesn't allow for enough control on a heavily loaded bike, correct? So, my first question - drop bars, yes or no? Secondly, if drop bars are out, I'd like to use a trekking bar

          http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___202446

          for the extra hand positions. Does anyone else use these? I'm thinking since a trekking bar tends to move the main hand position back slightly that I'd need a shorter stem? The thing is, I'm already having to convert from 1" threaded steerer to one of those thread-to-threadless adapters, along with an adjustable angle stem. My original riding position on the Stumpy as an offroad mtb was with the bar lower than the saddle and a fairly stretched out position. Not comfortable at all for lengthy rides on a heavily laden bike.

          I run a 110mm adjustable stem on my commuter and it's angled pretty steeply to get the bar close to level with my saddle. I'm going to shoot for a similar riding position on the XtraStumpy. Nashbar sells a Ritchey adjustable stem like I have on my commuter. I'm thinking maybe go with the longest one they sell - 120mm to help account for the way the main riding position on the trekking bar is a couple inches back from where it would be on a normal bar. Sound okay? Any suggestions?

          I'm using all the old drivetrain components of the Stumpy as well, but being circa '94 they're 7 speed Suntour thumb shifters along with a real Franken-bike set up of an XT rear derailleur on a basic Shimano 7 speed rear cogset. Should I just buy two whole new chains for 7 speed to use rather than trying to use the chain extension that comes with the Xtracycle kit? Finally, does anyone have a good suggestion for an affordable way to secure the rack bars without buying the expensive Watchamacollars?

          I'm on a pretty limited budget for building this cargo bike so I'm making some things myself like my own wood deck and running boards. I'm still considering sewing my own cargo bags or buying some of the inexpensive Chinese-made touring panniers I've seen on ebay. I'm not above doing a fair amount of engineering of accessories myself, so any suggestions along those lines would be greatly appreciated.

          Thanks

        • rltilley@gmail.com
          I have those Titec s on my Karate Monkey which I use on my offroad commute. They would be perfect on my Big Dummy. At some point I may swap a pair in for the
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 16, 2012
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            I have those Titec's on my Karate Monkey which I use on my offroad commute. They would be perfect on my Big Dummy. At some point I may swap a pair in for the Origin8 Open Space bars I have on there now.

            Robert Tilley
            San Diego, CA
            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

            From: Sean <gear.head@...>
            Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:59:08 -0800
            To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com<rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
            ReplyTo: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [rootsradicals] New to the group - building my own Xtracycle

            Welcome aboard. I ran my first long tail bike for a long time with beat up 80's diamondback mountain bike frame and a 7 speed drive train. It suited me just fine. As for handle bars, I have dabbled with a few different bars. My favorites were the On-one Fleegle and my current ones which are the Titec version of a Jeff Jones H-bar. If you have a local bike co-op you might be able to test drive a few till you find the perfect match. Whatever you choose, I would aim for a more upright riding position. On a long tail bike I like my head up so I can enjoy the scenery and the thumbs up from passer byes. 

            Sean

            Sent from my iPad

            On Nov 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...> wrote:

             

            Hello,

            I'm new to the group here and would like to ask a couple questions. I'm going to be purchasing my own Xtracycle Free Radical to bolt onto my old long-unused '94 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro mtb. I have a touring bike that is my daily (110+ miles/week), commuter and it has a nice, comfy Ritchey Biomax CX drop bar on it. I think I've see all of about 3 or 4 Xtracycles with drop bars, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that a drop bar, even a wide one, probably doesn't allow for enough control on a heavily loaded bike, correct? So, my first question - drop bars, yes or no? Secondly, if drop bars are out, I'd like to use a trekking bar

            http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___202446

            for the extra hand positions. Does anyone else use these? I'm thinking since a trekking bar tends to move the main hand position back slightly that I'd need a shorter stem? The thing is, I'm already having to convert from 1" threaded steerer to one of those thread-to-threadless adapters, along with an adjustable angle stem. My original riding position on the Stumpy as an offroad mtb was with the bar lower than the saddle and a fairly stretched out position. Not comfortable at all for lengthy rides on a heavily laden bike.

            I run a 110mm adjustable stem on my commuter and it's angled pretty steeply to get the bar close to level with my saddle. I'm going to shoot for a similar riding position on the XtraStumpy. Nashbar sells a Ritchey adjustable stem like I have on my commuter. I'm thinking maybe go with the longest one they sell - 120mm to help account for the way the main riding position on the trekking bar is a couple inches back from where it would be on a normal bar. Sound okay? Any suggestions?

            I'm using all the old drivetrain components of the Stumpy as well, but being circa '94 they're 7 speed Suntour thumb shifters along with a real Franken-bike set up of an XT rear derailleur on a basic Shimano 7 speed rear cogset. Should I just buy two whole new chains for 7 speed to use rather than trying to use the chain extension that comes with the Xtracycle kit? Finally, does anyone have a good suggestion for an affordable way to secure the rack bars without buying the expensive Watchamacollars?

            I'm on a pretty limited budget for building this cargo bike so I'm making some things myself like my own wood deck and running boards. I'm still considering sewing my own cargo bags or buying some of the inexpensive Chinese-made touring panniers I've seen on ebay. I'm not above doing a fair amount of engineering of accessories myself, so any suggestions along those lines would be greatly appreciated.

            Thanks

          • kiltie_celt
            Thanks for the bar advice. I would like to have given those Titec/Jeff Jones bars a try but just could not seem to find anyone selling them. I ended up placing
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 17, 2012
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              Thanks for the bar advice. I would like to have given those Titec/Jeff Jones bars a try but just could not seem to find anyone selling them. I ended up placing an order for a bunch of parts from Tree Fort and went with a basic Answer riser bar. I figure I can use that with my old beefy Answer Hyper Ends mtb bar ends for the extra hand positions.

              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Sean <gear.head@...> wrote:
              >
              > Welcome aboard. I ran my first long tail bike for a long time with beat up 80's diamondback mountain bike frame and a 7 speed drive train. It suited me just fine. As for handle bars, I have dabbled with a few different bars. My favorites were the On-one Fleegle and my current ones which are the Titec version of a Jeff Jones H-bar. If you have a local bike co-op you might be able to test drive a few till you find the perfect match. Whatever you choose, I would aim for a more upright riding position. On a long tail bike I like my head up so I can enjoy the scenery and the thumbs up from passer byes.
              >
              > Sean
              >
              > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > On Nov 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hello,
              > >
              > > I'm new to the group here and would like to ask a couple questions. I'm going to be purchasing my own Xtracycle Free Radical to bolt onto my old long-unused '94 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro mtb. I have a touring bike that is my daily (110+ miles/week), commuter and it has a nice, comfy Ritchey Biomax CX drop bar on it. I think I've see all of about 3 or 4 Xtracycles with drop bars, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that a drop bar, even a wide one, probably doesn't allow for enough control on a heavily loaded bike, correct? So, my first question - drop bars, yes or no? Secondly, if drop bars are out, I'd like to use a trekking bar
              > >
              > > http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___202446
              > >
              > > for the extra hand positions. Does anyone else use these? I'm thinking since a trekking bar tends to move the main hand position back slightly that I'd need a shorter stem? The thing is, I'm already having to convert from 1" threaded steerer to one of those thread-to-threadless adapters, along with an adjustable angle stem. My original riding position on the Stumpy as an offroad mtb was with the bar lower than the saddle and a fairly stretched out position. Not comfortable at all for lengthy rides on a heavily laden bike.
              > >
              > > I run a 110mm adjustable stem on my commuter and it's angled pretty steeply to get the bar close to level with my saddle. I'm going to shoot for a similar riding position on the XtraStumpy. Nashbar sells a Ritchey adjustable stem like I have on my commuter. I'm thinking maybe go with the longest one they sell - 120mm to help account for the way the main riding position on the trekking bar is a couple inches back from where it would be on a normal bar. Sound okay? Any suggestions?
              > >
              > > I'm using all the old drivetrain components of the Stumpy as well, but being circa '94 they're 7 speed Suntour thumb shifters along with a real Franken-bike set up of an XT rear derailleur on a basic Shimano 7 speed rear cogset. Should I just buy two whole new chains for 7 speed to use rather than trying to use the chain extension that comes with the Xtracycle kit? Finally, does anyone have a good suggestion for an affordable way to secure the rack bars without buying the expensive Watchamacollars?
              > >
              > > I'm on a pretty limited budget for building this cargo bike so I'm making some things myself like my own wood deck and running boards. I'm still considering sewing my own cargo bags or buying some of the inexpensive Chinese-made touring panniers I've seen on ebay. I'm not above doing a fair amount of engineering of accessories myself, so any suggestions along those lines would be greatly appreciated.
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > >
              >
            • gear.head@verizon.net
              That s a bummer. Well maybe later down the road if you are up for trying it, Cambria bikes has it: http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=40195 I had my
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 17, 2012
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                That's a bummer. Well maybe later down the road if you are up for trying it, Cambria bikes has it: http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=40195 I had my local REI order mine back when I built my Dummy. I think they were not widely available back then.

                Sean
                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                From: "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...>
                Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:27:48 +0000
                To: <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
                ReplyTo: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: New to the group - building my own Xtracycle

                 

                Thanks for the bar advice. I would like to have given those Titec/Jeff Jones bars a try but just could not seem to find anyone selling them. I ended up placing an order for a bunch of parts from Tree Fort and went with a basic Answer riser bar. I figure I can use that with my old beefy Answer Hyper Ends mtb bar ends for the extra hand positions.

                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Sean <gear.head@...> wrote:
                >
                > Welcome aboard. I ran my first long tail bike for a long time with beat up 80's diamondback mountain bike frame and a 7 speed drive train. It suited me just fine. As for handle bars, I have dabbled with a few different bars. My favorites were the On-one Fleegle and my current ones which are the Titec version of a Jeff Jones H-bar. If you have a local bike co-op you might be able to test drive a few till you find the perfect match. Whatever you choose, I would aim for a more upright riding position. On a long tail bike I like my head up so I can enjoy the scenery and the thumbs up from passer byes.
                >
                > Sean
                >
                > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > On Nov 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hello,
                > >
                > > I'm new to the group here and would like to ask a couple questions. I'm going to be purchasing my own Xtracycle Free Radical to bolt onto my old long-unused '94 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro mtb. I have a touring bike that is my daily (110+ miles/week), commuter and it has a nice, comfy Ritchey Biomax CX drop bar on it. I think I've see all of about 3 or 4 Xtracycles with drop bars, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that a drop bar, even a wide one, probably doesn't allow for enough control on a heavily loaded bike, correct? So, my first question - drop bars, yes or no? Secondly, if drop bars are out, I'd like to use a trekking bar
                > >
                > > http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___202446
                > >
                > > for the extra hand positions. Does anyone else use these? I'm thinking since a trekking bar tends to move the main hand position back slightly that I'd need a shorter stem? The thing is, I'm already having to convert from 1" threaded steerer to one of those thread-to-threadless adapters, along with an adjustable angle stem. My original riding position on the Stumpy as an offroad mtb was with the bar lower than the saddle and a fairly stretched out position. Not comfortable at all for lengthy rides on a heavily laden bike.
                > >
                > > I run a 110mm adjustable stem on my commuter and it's angled pretty steeply to get the bar close to level with my saddle. I'm going to shoot for a similar riding position on the XtraStumpy. Nashbar sells a Ritchey adjustable stem like I have on my commuter. I'm thinking maybe go with the longest one they sell - 120mm to help account for the way the main riding position on the trekking bar is a couple inches back from where it would be on a normal bar. Sound okay? Any suggestions?
                > >
                > > I'm using all the old drivetrain components of the Stumpy as well, but being circa '94 they're 7 speed Suntour thumb shifters along with a real Franken-bike set up of an XT rear derailleur on a basic Shimano 7 speed rear cogset. Should I just buy two whole new chains for 7 speed to use rather than trying to use the chain extension that comes with the Xtracycle kit? Finally, does anyone have a good suggestion for an affordable way to secure the rack bars without buying the expensive Watchamacollars?
                > >
                > > I'm on a pretty limited budget for building this cargo bike so I'm making some things myself like my own wood deck and running boards. I'm still considering sewing my own cargo bags or buying some of the inexpensive Chinese-made touring panniers I've seen on ebay. I'm not above doing a fair amount of engineering of accessories myself, so any suggestions along those lines would be greatly appreciated.
                > >
                > > Thanks
                > >
                > >
                >

              • kiltie_celt
                Cool bar but ouch, expensive! The Answer bar I purchased was about $27.
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 17, 2012
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                  Cool bar but ouch, expensive! The Answer bar I purchased was about $27.

                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, gear.head@... wrote:
                  >
                  > That's a bummer. Well maybe later down the road if you are up for trying it, Cambria bikes has it: http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=40195 I had my local REI order mine back when I built my Dummy. I think they were not widely available back then.
                  >
                  > Sean
                  > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@...>
                  > Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:27:48
                  > To: <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Reply-to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: New to the group - building my own Xtracycle
                  >
                  > Thanks for the bar advice. I would like to have given those Titec/Jeff Jones bars a try but just could not seem to find anyone selling them. I ended up placing an order for a bunch of parts from Tree Fort and went with a basic Answer riser bar. I figure I can use that with my old beefy Answer Hyper Ends mtb bar ends for the extra hand positions.
                  >
                  > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Sean <gear.head@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Welcome aboard. I ran my first long tail bike for a long time with beat up 80's diamondback mountain bike frame and a 7 speed drive train. It suited me just fine. As for handle bars, I have dabbled with a few different bars. My favorites were the On-one Fleegle and my current ones which are the Titec version of a Jeff Jones H-bar. If you have a local bike co-op you might be able to test drive a few till you find the perfect match. Whatever you choose, I would aim for a more upright riding position. On a long tail bike I like my head up so I can enjoy the scenery and the thumbs up from passer byes.
                  > >
                  > > Sean
                  > >
                  > > Sent from my iPad
                  > >
                  > > On Nov 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, "kiltie_celt" <kiltie_celt@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Hello,
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm new to the group here and would like to ask a couple questions. I'm going to be purchasing my own Xtracycle Free Radical to bolt onto my old long-unused '94 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro mtb. I have a touring bike that is my daily (110+ miles/week), commuter and it has a nice, comfy Ritchey Biomax CX drop bar on it. I think I've see all of about 3 or 4 Xtracycles with drop bars, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that a drop bar, even a wide one, probably doesn't allow for enough control on a heavily loaded bike, correct? So, my first question - drop bars, yes or no? Secondly, if drop bars are out, I'd like to use a trekking bar
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___202446
                  > > >
                  > > > for the extra hand positions. Does anyone else use these? I'm thinking since a trekking bar tends to move the main hand position back slightly that I'd need a shorter stem? The thing is, I'm already having to convert from 1" threaded steerer to one of those thread-to-threadless adapters, along with an adjustable angle stem. My original riding position on the Stumpy as an offroad mtb was with the bar lower than the saddle and a fairly stretched out position. Not comfortable at all for lengthy rides on a heavily laden bike.
                  > > >
                  > > > I run a 110mm adjustable stem on my commuter and it's angled pretty steeply to get the bar close to level with my saddle. I'm going to shoot for a similar riding position on the XtraStumpy. Nashbar sells a Ritchey adjustable stem like I have on my commuter. I'm thinking maybe go with the longest one they sell - 120mm to help account for the way the main riding position on the trekking bar is a couple inches back from where it would be on a normal bar. Sound okay? Any suggestions?
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm using all the old drivetrain components of the Stumpy as well, but being circa '94 they're 7 speed Suntour thumb shifters along with a real Franken-bike set up of an XT rear derailleur on a basic Shimano 7 speed rear cogset. Should I just buy two whole new chains for 7 speed to use rather than trying to use the chain extension that comes with the Xtracycle kit? Finally, does anyone have a good suggestion for an affordable way to secure the rack bars without buying the expensive Watchamacollars?
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm on a pretty limited budget for building this cargo bike so I'm making some things myself like my own wood deck and running boards. I'm still considering sewing my own cargo bags or buying some of the inexpensive Chinese-made touring panniers I've seen on ebay. I'm not above doing a fair amount of engineering of accessories myself, so any suggestions along those lines would be greatly appreciated.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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