Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [rootsradicals] Re: Base bike differences

Expand Messages
  • gear.head@verizon.net
    I have/had both: a 80 s Diamondback with conversion and now my Dummy. There is no doubt the purpose made frame is stiffer. However it is worth noting that how
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 20, 2012
    I have/had both: a 80's Diamondback with conversion and now my Dummy. There is no doubt the purpose made frame is stiffer. However it is worth noting that how you load makes a HUge difference. On either set up, keeping the weight low and as tight to the center of the bike will result in the best handling. The further up you go and further out you go amplifies the torque arm effect on the mounting interface of the xtra. I would say you get somewhat used to the flex and frame selection I feel would have a negligible impact on the "noodle" effect.

    See attached picture of a heavy load, low and tight. (Maximum noodle at this weight).

    Sean
    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

    From: Julian Anthony <julian3anthony@...>
    Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 12:25:33 -0400
    To: <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
    ReplyTo: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Base bike differences

     

    mid-90s Gary Fisher mountain bike feels fine with no load, 50# bag of dog food at average speed feels noodley.  125# passenger doesn't feel as noodley probably as I'm not going as fast.
     
    I test rode a 2008 Big Dummy this weekend and while I am tempted to upgrade as it is rock solid, it doesn't quite have the charm of a retrofitted Xtracycle.  JMO
  • Douglas Botma
    With my mesa,I only experience max of 100 lb. when hauling dog food in 2- 50 lb bags which is naturally loaded 1 on each side down on wide loaders. When mine
    Message 2 of 22 , Jun 20, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      With my mesa,I only experience max of 100 lb. when hauling dog food in 2- 50 lb bags which is
      naturally loaded 1 on each side down on wide loaders. When mine gets noodeley, it can get
      dicey if you need to swerve to miss anything from a piece of glass to a pothole .
    • Troy
      I have 2 longtail bikes. One is a Trek Ladies cruiser with a free radical, the other is a Raleigh men s cruiser with a home made extension. If anything the
      Message 3 of 22 , Jun 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        I have 2 longtail bikes. One is a Trek Ladies' cruiser with a free radical, the other is a Raleigh men's cruiser with a home made extension. If anything the home made extension ought to be more flexy than the free radical. The trek/xtra is very flexy though; way more so than the men's bike. It's a bit ridiculous really. I think this is mostly due to the poor torsional rigidity of the low swooping top tube of the step-through ladies' frame. I suspect that adding a straight top tube would make an immense difference. I'm confident that attaching her free radical to a men's mt bike frame would result in a far stiffer and better handling ride. So in that regard, frame choice can make a big difference.

        As far as the difference between different conventional diamond frame mountain bikes, i think the difference from one to the next would likely be very small, if noticeable at all. A bike with large oversized aluminum tubes may be a bit more rigid than a bike with steel in the classic dimensions, but I doubt it would equate to a huge difference in feel. I think the frame shape is the main thing. Any kind of a ladies' frame or even mixtes are likely to be much flexier than a conventional diamond frame.

        Then of course, the purpose built bikes like the big dummy, mundo, etc are going to be much stiffer than anything with an xtracycle added on to it. That's why i was surprised that Xtras own offering, the radish, was not a single complete unit but instead still uses a normal free radical.

        I rode a yuba and was very impressed with the rigidity with my wife on the back. An enormous difference between that and the free rad or my home-brew extension. I think if you regularly haul heavy loads, there is absolutely no comparison between a free-rad and the one-piece frames.

        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, gear.head@... wrote:
        >
        > I have/had both: a 80's Diamondback with conversion and now my Dummy. There is no doubt the purpose made frame is stiffer. However it is worth noting that how you load makes a HUge difference. On either set up, keeping the weight low and as tight to the center of the bike will result in the best handling. The further up you go and further out you go amplifies the torque arm effect on the mounting interface of the xtra. I would say you get somewhat used to the flex and frame selection I feel would have a negligible impact on the "noodle" effect.
        >
        > See attached picture of a heavy load, low and tight. (Maximum noodle at this weight).
        >
        > Sean
        > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
      • Tone
        Troy, Regarding donor bicycles for Xtracycle attachment, I think I can confirm your suspicion about a large oversized aluminum tube being a bit more rigid than
        Message 4 of 22 , Jun 22, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Troy,
          Regarding donor bicycles for Xtracycle attachment, I think I can confirm
          your suspicion about a large oversized aluminum tube being a bit more
          rigid than a bike with steel in the classic dimensions. I currently have
          a steel Big Dummy (single-framed long tail, I think the first or second
          year the Big Dummy was on the market), but before that I had an Xtracycle
          mated to a phatt tubed aluminum Univega FS750. Here’s a photo link to my
          old set up, but I recommend no on attempt hauling this load anywhere:
          http://www.cranksgiving.net/XtraLoads/LunarLoad-Angle.jpg

          Some people on this list might remember me because I use to post quite a
          bit when I still worked as a cargo-bike messenger in NYC before 2007.
          Anyway, after getting the Big Dummy I actually felt a slightly
          disappointed by the flex I was experiencing. I had the impression my
          Univega felt a lot more rigid. Of course as someone pointed out, securing
          the load in the right way makes a huge difference. The more your cargo is
          able to shift position, even in the slightest, the more sway or flex you
          will feel. It can get really bad at faster speeds or during abrupt
          maneuvering.
          I will admit that when I got my Big Dummy I had moved out of New York and
          stopped working as a messenger for about a year, so my leg strength
          probably was not what it used to be. I still commuted by bike 10 miles to
          work every day though and used my bike the rest of the time as my primary
          mode of transportation for errands, etc. Still I did get the sense the
          Big Dummy had more flex. As I said that was a let down to me because I
          thought I was “upgrading.” It especially bummed me out because my
          Univega-Xtracycle combo was noticeably lighter in weight and I only
          worried about rust infiltrating the relatively inexpensive frame of the
          Xtracycle. With the Big Dummy now it is both heavier and I am paranoid
          about rust condemning the entire pricey frame.
          Something else of note is my choice of wheels. As you can see in the
          linked photo, I ride with Aerospoke 5-spoke carbon fiber wheels. I have
          had these babies for over ten years, on my old Xtracycles and my Big
          Dummy. They have been in several crashes too. I imagine not having any of
          the give or eventual tension strain/stretch of metal spokes might also
          lend itself to a more rigid feel. I can tell you it is way less stressful
          not having to worry about spokes getting out of true or even losing them.
          Also, it is a heck of a lot easier to run a chain/lock through. They
          might be the slightest bit heavier and more expensive than a decent
          wheel, but I think it is worth it in the long run.

          I just wanted to add my $0.02 to the discussion about frame rigidity. I
          hope it can help someone.

          Oh yeah, if someone chooses to mate an Xtracycle to an aluminum bike
          frame, keep watch on the kickstand mount where the FAP connects to. On my
          Univega after a few years I discovered the steel FAP actually grinded
          down into the aluminum tubing. Of course that meant the FAP bolt had to
          be repeatedly tightened, but I completely and cheaply resolved the issue.
          I fabricated a little trapezoid piece of metal from a short plumbing pipe
          cut to shape using a Dremel cutting disc and a metal drill bit for the
          FAP bolt to run through.

          Take care and ride safe,
          _TONE_
        • Miguel Barroso
          I find it strange to hear so much complaint about flex. For me is a good thing!.. it makes the ride much more comfortable. Unless your are doing races, the
          Message 5 of 22 , Jun 22, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            I find it strange to hear so much complaint about flex. For me is a good thing!.. it makes the ride much more comfortable. Unless your are doing races, the performance loss is insignificant. In fact, I urge everybody to slow down a bit... If there is a way to prevent accidents, is by riding carefully and slightly slower than our fitness level allows.

            I normaly ride with my 2 boys on the back, plus all the junk I normally lug around in the free loaders - laptop, books, etc... more than 50Kgs, I might suspect. I've carryed a cameraman, with over 80Kg, with no problems... well, almost no problems - going up a 8~10% slope with him in the back, was not an easy task.

            I have a steel GT Tequesta (1996), with the free radical.

            Miguel Barroso



          • Jeremy Cohen
            I agree! This flex/no flex discussion feels like local racers talking about titanium spoke nipples---I ride a crappy, old donor bike with a free-rad on the
            Message 6 of 22 , Jun 22, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I agree!  This flex/no flex discussion feels like local racers talking about titanium spoke nipples---I ride a crappy, old donor bike with a free-rad on the back.  I schlep a kid, often two kids plus all my other stuff, and while I suppose my bike flexes while I pedal, it is nothing compared to the side to side wiggle I get from two kids doing a synchronized sing-along as we cruise around town.  

            • Douglas Botma
              The flex in my Schwinn Mesa aluminum frame has nothing to do with playing Joe Racer but more to do with the doner -Xtracycle match. It may be the 23 seat
              Message 7 of 22 , Jun 23, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                The flex in my Schwinn Mesa aluminum frame has nothing to do with playing Joe Racer but more
                to do with the doner -Xtracycle  match. It may be the 23"seat tube/24.5" top tube I need for my height causes more springy tubes and/or Schwinn's epicenter stays allowing the rear sub-frame to whip around . Maybe there should be a database of what combinations works well as I've seen suggested before.
              • Troy
                Jeremy and Miguel: The flex we (or I, anyway) are discussing is a torsional flex, meaning to stand astride your bike and lean the bike back and forth under you
                Message 8 of 22 , Jun 23, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jeremy and Miguel:

                  The flex we (or I, anyway) are discussing is a torsional flex, meaning to stand astride your bike and lean the bike back and forth under you by swinging the handlebars back and forth (not turning them, but leanign them).

                  On my wife's flexy bike, the xtracycle (especially if there is a heavy load in it) will lag behind like a fly fishing line or something. This also is very noticeable at low speeds or high speeds when riding and makes it hard to ride precisely at low speed without losing balance, and can make it downright dangerous at high speed. At moderate speed it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem.

                  I'm not talking about a flex in the... longitudinal(?) direction. Meaning that if i am coasting in a straight line, and bounce my weight on the pedals, i don't care if there's a little flex in the frame in that direction. In fact, as mentioned, that could even make the ride a little more comfortable over bumps.

                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Cohen <wjeremycohen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I agree! This flex/no flex discussion feels like local racers talking
                  > about titanium spoke nipples---I ride a crappy, old donor bike with a
                  > free-rad on the back. I schlep a kid, often two kids plus all my other
                  > stuff, and while I suppose my bike flexes while I pedal, it is nothing
                  > compared to the side to side wiggle I get from two kids doing a
                  > synchronized sing-along as we cruise around town.
                  >
                • Andrew
                  Thanks for all the helpful responses. I think my way forward is to carry on with my current set up and see how often the flex is an issue for me. If it s
                  Message 9 of 22 , Jun 23, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for all the helpful responses.

                    I think my way forward is to carry on with my current set up and see how often the flex is an issue for me. If it's fairly often I'll probably go with a Yuba frameset.

                    In the meantime I think I'll add a used childback tandem to the stable. It's pretty hilly round here and going any distance I'll be glad of the extra help.

                    As an aside I was really pleased to discover today that the old 2 child trailer languishing in the shed has a hitch that easily connects to the XC. Great combination for the recycling centre run.
                  • Douglas Botma
                    As soon as they are available (fall?), I will get Xtracycle s new sidecar to see if it will help stabilize the rig/allow me to take my 2 German Shepherds with
                    Message 10 of 22 , Jun 26, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      As soon as  they are available (fall?), I will get Xtracycle's new sidecar to see if it will help stabilize the rig/allow me to take my 2 German Shepherds with on some rides (vet,woods,etc).
                      Their combined weight of 150 lbs, one on each Wideloader causes to much torsional flex and
                      since I don't use a car, I have to walk them to these & other places 
                    • Andrew
                      A few more trips and I m learning more.... I ve had no issues with inert cargoes and it feels fine with my daughter (70lbs) + some shopping. But once I add her
                      Message 11 of 22 , Jun 28, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        A few more trips and I'm learning more....

                        I've had no issues with inert cargoes and it feels fine with my daughter (70lbs) + some shopping.

                        But once I add her cousin (another 80lbs)it often starts to get 'interesting'. If niece sits well forward with daughter behind AND they sit still, handling is ok, though setting off uphill can be a bit wriggly. And of course they're having a good time with each other and sitting completely still isn't part of that:)

                        So I think my issue is more related to crowd control than the bike!

                        I'll increase the tyre pressure at the back as it's probably too low when they're both aboard.

                        Anyway for 95% of what I'm doing it's great. And these are precious times, at 8 and 9 they're young enough to unselfconsciously enjoy the ride.
                      • Henry
                        Sean has got it dead on. The noodle effect will always be a part of xtracycle experience. I have previously owned a Big Dummy and it is night and day in the
                        Message 12 of 22 , Jul 15, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Sean has got it dead on. The noodle effect will always be a part of xtracycle experience. I have previously owned a Big Dummy and it is night and day in the stiffness department. And is odd as it may sound, the bd was too stiff for my taste. The energy transfer from bumps and bangs has got to dissipate to some final point and I would always feel it nail the seat post tube..my opinion and my lower back. I don't know when..and if ever.. the good folks at Xtracycle will come out with the heavy duty version of the free rad that I've seen some photos posted of. Will it send the noodle effect to oblivion?? We may never know. Lets Go! H.
                          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, gear.head@... wrote:
                          >
                          > I have/had both: a 80's Diamondback with conversion and now my Dummy. There is no doubt the purpose made frame is stiffer. However it is worth noting that how you load makes a HUge difference. On either set up, keeping the weight low and as tight to the center of the bike will result in the best handling. The further up you go and further out you go amplifies the torque arm effect on the mounting interface of the xtra. I would say you get somewhat used to the flex and frame selection I feel would have a negligible impact on the "noodle" effect.
                          >
                          > See attached picture of a heavy load, low and tight. (Maximum noodle at this weight).
                          >
                          > Sean
                          > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Julian Anthony <julian3anthony@...>
                          > Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 12:25:33
                          > To: <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Reply-to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Base bike differences
                          >
                          > mid-90s Gary Fisher mountain bike feels fine with no load, 50# bag of dog
                          > food at average speed feels noodley. 125# passenger doesn't feel as
                          > noodley probably as I'm not going as fast.
                          >
                          > I test rode a 2008 Big Dummy this weekend and while I am tempted to upgrade
                          > as it is rock solid, it doesn't quite have the charm of a retrofitted
                          > Xtracycle. JMO
                          >
                        • rlwieneke
                          This entire problem with the Big Dummy would for the most part be solved with a suspended front fork. And if that is not sufficient, fully solved with an add
                          Message 13 of 22 , Jul 15, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            This entire problem with the Big Dummy would for the most part be solved with a suspended front fork. And if that is not sufficient, fully solved with an add on rear suspension such as the WAW Shockster rear suspension upgrade (gif below) if one could be made or modified to fit the rear of the Big Dummy.

                            http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3339115598_cb13c4b1f0_o.gif

                            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Henry" <radialnation@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Sean has got it dead on. The noodle effect will always be a part of xtracycle experience. I have previously owned a Big Dummy and it is night and day in the stiffness department. And is odd as it may sound, the bd was too stiff for my taste. The energy transfer from bumps and bangs has got to dissipate to some final point and I would always feel it nail the seat post tube..my opinion and my lower back. I don't know when..and if ever.. the good folks at Xtracycle will come out with the heavy duty version of the free rad that I've seen some photos posted of. Will it send the noodle effect to oblivion?? We may never know. Lets Go! H.
                            > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, gear.head@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I have/had both: a 80's Diamondback with conversion and now my Dummy. There is no doubt the purpose made frame is stiffer. However it is worth noting that how you load makes a HUge difference. On either set up, keeping the weight low and as tight to the center of the bike will result in the best handling. The further up you go and further out you go amplifies the torque arm effect on the mounting interface of the xtra. I would say you get somewhat used to the flex and frame selection I feel would have a negligible impact on the "noodle" effect.
                            > >
                            > > See attached picture of a heavy load, low and tight. (Maximum noodle at this weight).
                            > >
                            > > Sean
                            > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Julian Anthony <julian3anthony@>
                            > > Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 12:25:33
                            > > To: <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Reply-to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Base bike differences
                            > >
                            > > mid-90s Gary Fisher mountain bike feels fine with no load, 50# bag of dog
                            > > food at average speed feels noodley. 125# passenger doesn't feel as
                            > > noodley probably as I'm not going as fast.
                            > >
                            > > I test rode a 2008 Big Dummy this weekend and while I am tempted to upgrade
                            > > as it is rock solid, it doesn't quite have the charm of a retrofitted
                            > > Xtracycle. JMO
                            > >
                            >
                          • Brian Livelsberger
                            Sprung saddle can help (a la Brooks, or the similar Gyes) Brian
                            Message 14 of 22 , Jul 15, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Sprung saddle can help (a la Brooks, or the similar Gyes)

                              Brian

                              On Jul 15, 2012 2:16 PM, "rlwieneke" <catrike@...> wrote:
                               


                              This entire problem with the Big Dummy would for the most part be solved with a suspended front fork. And if that is not sufficient, fully solved with an add on rear suspension such as the WAW Shockster rear suspension upgrade (gif below) if one could be made or modified to fit the rear of the Big Dummy.

                              http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3339115598_cb13c4b1f0_o.gif

                              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Henry" <radialnation@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Sean has got it dead on. The noodle effect will always be a part of xtracycle experience. I have previously owned a Big Dummy and it is night and day in the stiffness department. And is odd as it may sound, the bd was too stiff for my taste. The energy transfer from bumps and bangs has got to dissipate to some final point and I would always feel it nail the seat post tube..my opinion and my lower back. I don't know when..and if ever.. the good folks at Xtracycle will come out with the heavy duty version of the free rad that I've seen some photos posted of. Will it send the noodle effect to oblivion?? We may never know. Lets Go! H.
                              > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, gear.head@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I have/had both: a 80's Diamondback with conversion and now my Dummy. There is no doubt the purpose made frame is stiffer. However it is worth noting that how you load makes a HUge difference. On either set up, keeping the weight low and as tight to the center of the bike will result in the best handling. The further up you go and further out you go amplifies the torque arm effect on the mounting interface of the xtra. I would say you get somewhat used to the flex and frame selection I feel would have a negligible impact on the "noodle" effect.
                              > >
                              > > See attached picture of a heavy load, low and tight. (Maximum noodle at this weight).
                              > >
                              > > Sean
                              > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Julian Anthony <julian3anthony@>
                              > > Sender: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 12:25:33
                              > > To: <rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Reply-to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: Base bike differences
                              > >
                              > > mid-90s Gary Fisher mountain bike feels fine with no load, 50# bag of dog
                              > > food at average speed feels noodley. 125# passenger doesn't feel as
                              > > noodley probably as I'm not going as fast.
                              > >
                              > > I test rode a 2008 Big Dummy this weekend and while I am tempted to upgrade
                              > > as it is rock solid, it doesn't quite have the charm of a retrofitted
                              > > Xtracycle. JMO
                              > >
                              >

                            • David Dannenberg
                              A Thudbuster would do it. Very simple--not cheap though. http://www.thudbuster.com/
                              Message 15 of 22 , Jul 16, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                A Thudbuster would do it. Very simple--not cheap though.  http://www.thudbuster.com/
                              • Steve Fuller
                                ... Lower tire pressures and wider tires might help too (although I don t know what the OP is running). Very simple as well. :) Steve
                                Message 16 of 22 , Jul 16, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:41 AM, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  A Thudbuster would do it. Very simple--not cheap though.  http://www.thudbuster.com/


                                  Lower tire pressures and wider tires might help too (although I don't know what the OP is running). Very simple as well. :)

                                  Steve 
                                • phaedrus at yahoo
                                  *heh* My partner had to do about 20 miles the other day on her xtracycle with the kid and trailer in tow. She expressed disappointment in herself because she
                                  Message 17 of 22 , Jul 24, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    *heh*

                                    My partner had to do about 20 miles the other day on her xtracycle with the kid and trailer in tow.

                                    She expressed disappointment in herself because she remembers being able to take a similar route in much less time a few years ago when she commuted that way regularly.

                                    My response: "Sweetie, your bachetta was like a sports car.  Now you're riding a minivan.  It would be amazing if you were as fast."

                                    I think it made her feel better - its strange how context can slip out of expectation calculations.

                                    (Although, I just mounted an xtracycle on a Cruz Bike.   It's like a sports truck?)

                                    - phaedrus


                                    On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman <cara.lin@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Exactly! I had one carbon-fiber roadie try to do the 1-finger-lift
                                    trick on my xtracycle. There was absolutely no way that was going to
                                    work even if it wasn't loaded with stokemonkey, battery, book bag, etc.

                                    Xtracycles are trucks, not sports cars.

                                    CL
                                    > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "seppludwig" <seppludwig@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> We've inherited the obsession for weight from road racing where weight makes you slower - a factor which is not at all important with utility biking or touring.


                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.