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Eliminate tensioner?

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  • David Dannenberg
    I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round.
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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      I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858

      I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud. 

      I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great. 

      Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem? 

      I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.

      Appreciate any suggestions.

      David Dannenberg
    • David Chase
      I experimentally tried the TerraCycle idlers, but they did not do what I wanted, and now I am using a tensioner and happy enough. My problems were similar to
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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        I experimentally tried the TerraCycle idlers, but they did not do what I wanted, and now I am using a tensioner and happy enough.
        My problems were similar to yours, plus I had the issue of a chaincase to clear.

        The Big Dummy idlers run the drive side in line, and displace the return chain outward.
        They also put an upward bend on both chains when used as directed, and if you try to do it differently, you may have problems with chain slap and side-to-side movement.
        Overall, I don't think you will get a reduction in friction, chain wear, or noise, but you will nicely clear the center stand.

        I think "ideal" would be two idlers running in the same plane, one above the other.

        If I can scrape together all the parts, perhaps I can send them your direction for your own experiments.

        Pictures here, showing my attempts at making it all work the way I wanted.

        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100301
        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100293

        David


        On 2012-01-01, at 1:23 PM, David Dannenberg wrote:

        > I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858.
        >
        >
        > I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud.
        >
        > I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great.
        >
        > Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem?
        >
        > I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.
        >
        > Appreciate any suggestions.
      • speedub_nate
        I faced the same problem. My solution was to give up on the Kickback. I think it could be modified with a.U channel to allow for the chain, but i havent
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2012
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          I faced the same problem. My solution was to give up on the Kickback. I think it could be modified with a.U channel to allow for the chain, but i havent pursued it any further than rough sketches. I'll be paying attention to see.of you guys come up with anuthing workable.
          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:
          >
          > I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858.
          >
          > I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud.
          >
          > I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great.
          >
          > Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem?
          >
          > I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.
          >
          > Appreciate any suggestions.
          >
          > David Dannenberg
          >
        • TeamJT
          I m running a Nuvinci and had a good time figuring out how to deal with chain tension.  My goal was to get the thensioner away from the dropout so that I
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 2, 2012
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          I'm running a Nuvinci and had a good time figuring out how to deal with chain tension.  My goal was to get the thensioner away from the dropout so that I didn't have to deal with it when I was changing flats.

          Here's a photo of my idler.  I made it from an old skateboard wheel mounted to a steel angle, and strapped to my Dummy with a hose clamp.  It's a bit crude, but it does the job.  When I changed my chain I ended up one link shorter and found that it is almost a magic gear so I'm not relying on the idler as much as I was before.  I don't have a kickback, but when I had my old chain on it seemed to push the chain low enough that it would have cleared it.

          My original plan was to have both the active and return chain going above the tube with my idler pushing up on the return.  Since I'm running a small chainwheel the two chains rubbed when it was routed that way, so I went back to having it go below.  I didnt' want to lose efficiency by moving my active chain out of a straight path.

          I don't know if this will be any help, but I hope it is.  I have a side stand right now, and I will probably be getting a kickback before too long.

          --- On Sun, 1/1/12, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:

          From: David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...>
          Subject: [rootsradicals] Eliminate tensioner?
          To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 11:23 AM

           

          I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858


          I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud. 

          I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great. 

          Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem? 

          I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.

          Appreciate any suggestions.

          David Dannenberg
        • David Dannenberg
          Thanks for sharing that. Nice looking very clever set-up. I can tell you though that it will not clear the Kickback. The fundamental problem is that the chain
          Message 5 of 8 , Jan 3, 2012
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            Thanks for sharing that. Nice looking very clever set-up. I can tell you though that it will not clear the Kickback.  The fundamental problem is that the chain could run over the top of the KB folded, but would be crunched with the KB deployed. Tensioner runs the chain under the KB folded and unfolded.

            Do appreciate the ideas folks. Keep 'em coming.

            David Dannenberg
          • speedub_nate
            I started with the Nuvinci, too. I have an EBB, but had to come up with a chainring & cog combo that would thread the chain between the frame and the Kickback.
            Message 6 of 8 , Jan 3, 2012
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              I started with the Nuvinci, too. I have an EBB, but had to come up with a chainring & cog combo that would thread the chain between the frame and the Kickback.

              Looking at your photo (and not having the bike right here with me), the problem I believe you're going to face is when you deploy the Kickback, and the pad raises forward and up to contact the boom tube, the "shoulders" of the Kickback (the yoke, maybe? -- the U'shaped piece that connects the two legs to the pad) are going to press up against the chain. In my case, I simply had no slack in the chain to allow any give when this happened. My "perfect threading" is only perfect when the Kickback is stowed.

              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, TeamJT <jtrops@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm running a Nuvinci and had a good time figuring out how to deal with chain tension.  My goal was to get the thensioner away from the dropout so that I didn't have to deal with it when I was changing flats.
              > Here's a photo of my idler.  I made it from an old skateboard wheel mounted to a steel angle, and strapped to my Dummy with a hose clamp.  It's a bit crude, but it does the job.  When I changed my chain I ended up one link shorter and found that it is almost a magic gear so I'm not relying on the idler as much as I was before.  I don't have a kickback, but when I had my old chain on it seemed to push the chain low enough that it would have cleared it.
              > My original plan was to have both the active and return chain going above the tube with my idler pushing up on the return.  Since I'm running a small chainwheel the two chains rubbed when it was routed that way, so I went back to having it go below.  I didnt' want to lose efficiency by moving my active chain out of a straight path.
              >
              > I don't know if this will be any help, but I hope it is.  I have a side stand right now, and I will probably be getting a kickback before too long.
              > --- On Sun, 1/1/12, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...>
              > Subject: [rootsradicals] Eliminate tensioner?
              > To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
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              > I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858.%c3%82%c2%a0
              > I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud. 
              > I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great. 
              > Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem? 
              > I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.
              > Appreciate any suggestions.
              > David Dannenberg
              >
            • speedub_nate
              Here s a link to a photo I took of this setup (everything is upside down, in case it looks confusing).
              Message 7 of 8 , Jan 3, 2012
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                Here's a link to a photo I took of this setup (everything is upside down, in case it looks confusing).

                http://www.booboodog.net/images/bikes/xtra/xtra-kickback-relax.jpg

                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, TeamJT <jtrops@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm running a Nuvinci and had a good time figuring out how to deal with chain tension.  My goal was to get the thensioner away from the dropout so that I didn't have to deal with it when I was changing flats.
                > Here's a photo of my idler.  I made it from an old skateboard wheel mounted to a steel angle, and strapped to my Dummy with a hose clamp.  It's a bit crude, but it does the job.  When I changed my chain I ended up one link shorter and found that it is almost a magic gear so I'm not relying on the idler as much as I was before.  I don't have a kickback, but when I had my old chain on it seemed to push the chain low enough that it would have cleared it.
                > My original plan was to have both the active and return chain going above the tube with my idler pushing up on the return.  Since I'm running a small chainwheel the two chains rubbed when it was routed that way, so I went back to having it go below.  I didnt' want to lose efficiency by moving my active chain out of a straight path.
                >
                > I don't know if this will be any help, but I hope it is.  I have a side stand right now, and I will probably be getting a kickback before too long.
                > --- On Sun, 1/1/12, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...>
                > Subject: [rootsradicals] Eliminate tensioner?
                > To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
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                > I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858.%c3%82%c2%a0
                > I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud. 
                > I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great. 
                > Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem? 
                > I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.
                > Appreciate any suggestions.
                > David Dannenberg
                >
              • jtrops
                I see what you re talking about. I was thinking that with even just one more link the chain would fit in the space below the kickback. When my chain was
                Message 8 of 8 , Jan 4, 2012
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                  I see what you're talking about. I was thinking that with even just one more link the chain would fit in the space below the kickback. When my chain was longer I almost needed a longer angle to get the idler to keep tension on it.

                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "speedub_nate" <speedub.nate@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Here's a link to a photo I took of this setup (everything is upside down, in case it looks confusing).
                  >
                  > http://www.booboodog.net/images/bikes/xtra/xtra-kickback-relax.jpg
                  >
                  > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, TeamJT <jtrops@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I'm running a Nuvinci and had a good time figuring out how to deal with chain tension.  My goal was to get the thensioner away from the dropout so that I didn't have to deal with it when I was changing flats.
                  > > Here's a photo of my idler.  I made it from an old skateboard wheel mounted to a steel angle, and strapped to my Dummy with a hose clamp.  It's a bit crude, but it does the job.  When I changed my chain I ended up one link shorter and found that it is almost a magic gear so I'm not relying on the idler as much as I was before.  I don't have a kickback, but when I had my old chain on it seemed to push the chain low enough that it would have cleared it.
                  > > My original plan was to have both the active and return chain going above the tube with my idler pushing up on the return.  Since I'm running a small chainwheel the two chains rubbed when it was routed that way, so I went back to having it go below.  I didnt' want to lose efficiency by moving my active chain out of a straight path.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know if this will be any help, but I hope it is.  I have a side stand right now, and I will probably be getting a kickback before too long.
                  > > --- On Sun, 1/1/12, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@>
                  > > Subject: [rootsradicals] Eliminate tensioner?
                  > > To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
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                  > > I just replaced the jockey wheels on the Rohloff tensioner on my Big Dummy. They were really beaten to death; one of them was almost round. https://picasaweb.google.com/daviddannenberg1/JockeyWheels#5692727747568397858.%c3%82%c2%a0
                  > > I am running a Rohloff which is wonderful as it is essentially maintenance-free. I ride on a dirt road that variously coats the entire bike with dry rough silt, mud, half-decayed leaves, water, mud, ice. Derailleur drivetrains turn to junk fairly quickly under those conditions, wearing, going out of adjustment, sticking. The Rohloff and heavy chain eliminate most of this problem, but the system requires a tensioner and the tensioner accumulates beaucoup crud. 
                  > > I would switch to an eccentric bottom bracket and eliminate the tensioner, but then the chain would not clear the kick-back when the latter is in the folded position. I could get a Rolling Jackass kickstand, but they are pricey and look like they hang down lower than the Kickback. I love the Kickback--simple and works great. 
                  > > Anyone out there have any suggestions for getting around this problem? 
                  > > I am half considering routing the chain above the Kickback completely with mounted guides on the seat tube, but would that make for any less friction and crud accumulation than the tensioner? I guess they would be more accessible for cleaning than the tensioner that is located way under the Freeloaders but also perhaps more likely to expose body parts to the filthy chain.
                  > > Appreciate any suggestions.
                  > > David Dannenberg
                  > >
                  >
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