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Xtracycle, nuvinci, kickback, and chain routing

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  • Jeff Youngstrom
    Hey shiny people, I m on the verge of treating my Trek 6500 + freeradical to a new set of wheels with an N360 IGH. I ve read enough discussion here on the list
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 30, 2011
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      Hey shiny people,

      I'm on the verge of treating my Trek 6500 + freeradical to a new set of wheels with an N360 IGH.

      I've read enough discussion here on the list about this combination to know that it can be done.

      Since the Trek has vertical dropouts, I understand I'll need a chain tensioner of some kind.

      What I don't quite get is how the fixed chainline interacts with the kickback stand. Sounds like I have to do something to make that work. Looks like one option is the Terracycle idler kit http://tinyurl.com/xidler or conceivably the Big Dummy version http://tinyurl.com/bdidler

      Anyway, this seems like it's going to get kinda complicated. Is anybody running the nuvinci with a kickback on an xtracycle conversion who can let me know how they addressed these issues and how it's working for them?

      Thanks!
      Jeff

    • Rick
      Hey Jeff, I have a Rolhoff IGH and my KickBack receives light rubbing from the chain. It s been like that for two years now with no problem, slipping or
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 30, 2011
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        Hey Jeff,

        I have a Rolhoff IGH and my KickBack receives light rubbing from the chain. It's been like that for two years now with no problem, slipping or breakage.

        Cheers,
        Rick


        On Mar 30, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jeff Youngstrom wrote:

         

        Hey shiny people,

        I'm on the verge of treating my Trek 6500 + freeradical to a new set of wheels with an N360 IGH.

        I've read enough discussion here on the list about this combination to know that it can be done.

        Since the Trek has vertical dropouts, I understand I'll need a chain tensioner of some kind.

        What I don't quite get is how the fixed chainline interacts with the kickback stand. Sounds like I have to do something to make that work. Looks like one option is the Terracycle idler kit http://tinyurl.com/xidler or conceivably the Big Dummy version http://tinyurl.com/bdidler

        Anyway, this seems like it's going to get kinda complicated. Is anybody running the nuvinci with a kickback on an xtracycle conversion who can let me know how they addressed these issues and how it's working for them?

        Thanks!
        Jeff


      • reallyusefulbikes
        zip ties on the bit where the chain rubs the frame works...or the terracycle idler is a nice solution. We have tried both...both good...Zip ties cheaper....!!
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 31, 2011
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          zip ties on the bit where the chain rubs the frame works...or the terracycle idler is a nice solution. We have tried both...both good...Zip ties cheaper....!!

          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey shiny people,
          >
          > I'm on the verge of treating my Trek 6500 + freeradical to a new set of
          > wheels with an N360 IGH.
          >
          > I've read enough discussion here on the list about this combination to know
          > that it can be done.
          >
          > Since the Trek has vertical dropouts, I understand I'll need a chain
          > tensioner of some kind.
          >
          > What I don't quite get is how the fixed chainline interacts with the
          > kickback stand. Sounds like I have to do something to make that work. Looks
          > like one option is the Terracycle idler kit http://tinyurl.com/xidler or
          > conceivably the Big Dummy version http://tinyurl.com/bdidler
          >
          > Anyway, this seems like it's going to get kinda complicated. Is anybody
          > running the nuvinci with a kickback on an xtracycle conversion who can let
          > me know how they addressed these issues and how it's working for them?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Jeff
          >
        • jeff_sss
          I spent a lot of time trying to fix the chainline on my wife s big dummy w/kickback/nuvinci/stokemonkey. Between the shop and myself we tried different chain
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 31, 2011
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            I spent a lot of time trying to "fix" the chainline on my wife's big dummy w/kickback/nuvinci/stokemonkey.

            Between the shop and myself we tried different chain tensioners, different size freewheels, different chainrings.

            In the end, I got it "close enough" and quit working on it. I had the added challenge of a stokemonkey though, which caused additional clearance issues. The chain rubs lightly on the underside of the kickback.

            Once I realized how much I hated the Nuvinci I quit trying to make it work. The plan was to rebuild it with either a Rohloff or derailleur. My wife had a bad wreck though and knee surgery so it's been put off for a year. It's about time to start work again.

            [shameless ad] If anyone's interested in a Nuvinci (1st gen) wheel let me know.

            Jeff





            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey shiny people,
            >
            > I'm on the verge of treating my Trek 6500 + freeradical to a new set of
            > wheels with an N360 IGH.
            >
            > I've read enough discussion here on the list about this combination to know
            > that it can be done.
            >
            > Since the Trek has vertical dropouts, I understand I'll need a chain
            > tensioner of some kind.
            >
            > What I don't quite get is how the fixed chainline interacts with the
            > kickback stand. Sounds like I have to do something to make that work. Looks
            > like one option is the Terracycle idler kit http://tinyurl.com/xidler or
            > conceivably the Big Dummy version http://tinyurl.com/bdidler
            >
            > Anyway, this seems like it's going to get kinda complicated. Is anybody
            > running the nuvinci with a kickback on an xtracycle conversion who can let
            > me know how they addressed these issues and how it's working for them?
            >
            > Thanks!
            > Jeff
            >
          • Andrew Kreps
            ... Out of curiosity, could you write a little bit about why you don t like the NuVinci? The next time I rebuild my rear wheel, I ve thought about going that
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 31, 2011
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              On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:13 AM, jeff_sss <jsnavely@...> wrote:
              > Once I realized how much I hated the Nuvinci I quit trying to make it work. The plan was to rebuild it with either a Rohloff or derailleur. My wife had a bad wreck though and knee surgery so it's been put off for a year. It's about time to start work again.


              Out of curiosity, could you write a little bit about why you don't
              like the NuVinci? The next time I rebuild my rear wheel, I've thought
              about going that route.
            • jtrops
              The mention of Freewheel makes me think that you have the old version of the Nuvinci. What were the chainline problems that you were having? For what it s
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 31, 2011
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                The mention of "Freewheel" makes me think that you have the old version of the Nuvinci. What were the chainline problems that you were having? For what it's worth I don't have the stoke monkey, or the kickback, but I got my chainline dialed in immediately, and have since changed cranks, chainwheels, freewheels, and tensioners to clean it up, but not to improve the function. My current setup has the chainline corrected with an old school mtb crank on a 113mm spindle. The crankset was designed for 122.5mm. It puts the offset between the drive and cog under 2mm's. That variance over the length of the chain on the Big Dummy is statistically a perfect setup. What problems would be solved by going with a Rohloff? I can't be happier with my Nuvinci. It's worked flawlessly even at -9f.

                If I were to put a kickback on my bike I would have to change the chainwheel/cog to give more room for it.

                I'm not sure how the Stokemonkey figures into the equation. Doesn't it drive on the left side? If so, isn't that independent of the drive chainline?


                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_sss" <jsnavely@...> wrote:
                >
                > I spent a lot of time trying to "fix" the chainline on my wife's big dummy w/kickback/nuvinci/stokemonkey.
                >
                > Between the shop and myself we tried different chain tensioners, different size freewheels, different chainrings.
                >
                > In the end, I got it "close enough" and quit working on it. I had the added challenge of a stokemonkey though, which caused additional clearance issues. The chain rubs lightly on the underside of the kickback.
                >
                > Once I realized how much I hated the Nuvinci I quit trying to make it work. The plan was to rebuild it with either a Rohloff or derailleur. My wife had a bad wreck though and knee surgery so it's been put off for a year. It's about time to start work again.
                >
                > [shameless ad] If anyone's interested in a Nuvinci (1st gen) wheel let me know.
                >
                > Jeff
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hey shiny people,
                > >
                > > I'm on the verge of treating my Trek 6500 + freeradical to a new set of
                > > wheels with an N360 IGH.
                > >
                > > I've read enough discussion here on the list about this combination to know
                > > that it can be done.
                > >
                > > Since the Trek has vertical dropouts, I understand I'll need a chain
                > > tensioner of some kind.
                > >
                > > What I don't quite get is how the fixed chainline interacts with the
                > > kickback stand. Sounds like I have to do something to make that work. Looks
                > > like one option is the Terracycle idler kit http://tinyurl.com/xidler or
                > > conceivably the Big Dummy version http://tinyurl.com/bdidler
                > >
                > > Anyway, this seems like it's going to get kinda complicated. Is anybody
                > > running the nuvinci with a kickback on an xtracycle conversion who can let
                > > me know how they addressed these issues and how it's working for them?
                > >
                > > Thanks!
                > > Jeff
                > >
                >
              • A
                hi - I have a regular chainset and about to install a kickback. I bought this tensioner from CRC that clamps onto chainstay.
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 31, 2011
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                  hi - I have a regular chainset and about to install a kickback. I bought this tensioner from CRC that clamps onto chainstay. http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1425073/sn/827448094/name/loads+008.jpg (hopefully this link works).

                  best

                  Andy

                • jeff_sss
                  I once heard someone describe it as pedaling against a spring. That s as good as I could do. My two issues are the general pedal feel, and the amount I have to
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 1 4:33 PM
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                    I once heard someone describe it as pedaling against a spring. That's as good as I could do.

                    My two issues are the general pedal feel, and the amount I have to back off the pedals to shift. It's considerably more noticable than my shimano-hubbed bikes.

                    Admittedly, I am not a fan of IGH's and would never have chosen it for my own build. I don't know if the new one is any different or not.




                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:13 AM, jeff_sss <jsnavely@...> wrote:
                    > > Once I realized how much I hated the Nuvinci I quit trying to make it work. The plan was to rebuild it with either a Rohloff or derailleur. My wife had a bad wreck though and knee surgery so it's been put off for a year. It's about time to start work again.
                    >
                    >
                    > Out of curiosity, could you write a little bit about why you don't
                    > like the NuVinci? The next time I rebuild my rear wheel, I've thought
                    > about going that route.
                    >
                  • jtrops
                    It goes to show that there is no one cargo build that is perfect for everyone. I love my Nuvinci, and I can understand why you don t. If I had the problems
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 1 9:53 PM
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                      It goes to show that there is no one cargo build that is perfect for everyone. I love my Nuvinci, and I can understand why you don't. If I had the problems you are describing I would be putting my derailleur back on in a heartbeat.


                      That's interesting I never heard the "spring" simile. I have the older hub, and I can say that I have never experienced anything like what you are describing. My experience with Shimano hubs has been that you have to back pedal before you shift, or you will wear out the gears and pawls very quickly. The older SA hubs won't even shift in many cases unless you back pedal. The Nuvinci that I have shifts when I let up on the pressure, I don't even have to back pedal. In fact I would say that the sensation is almost exactly like the amount you have to relax the pressure to get a crisp shift from a derailleur. I know that chain shifting systems have gotten much better at shifting under load, but they still work better when you relax the pressure a bit. The only time I can feel the fluid in hub is when I'm in the absolute lowest gear. If I dial it up even a hair from that position it feels solid. I should say that in the lowest gear I can almost hear the hub if it's a very quiet stretch of road, but it still feels positive and fully engaged.

                      The new hub is supposed to be easier to shift under load, and generally better in every way over the one I got. I ended up with the older one due to a darn good deal on a bike that came with it. It ended up hundreds of dollars cheaper than if I were to buy the hub alone.

                      I hope that the Fallbrook people are hard at work on the next version. It would be cool to have one light enough, and withe enough range to honestly consider putting it on a MTB.

                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_sss" <jsnavely@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I once heard someone describe it as pedaling against a spring. That's as good as I could do.
                      >
                      > My two issues are the general pedal feel, and the amount I have to back off the pedals to shift. It's considerably more noticable than my shimano-hubbed bikes.
                      >
                      > Admittedly, I am not a fan of IGH's and would never have chosen it for my own build. I don't know if the new one is any different or not.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:13 AM, jeff_sss <jsnavely@> wrote:
                      > > > Once I realized how much I hated the Nuvinci I quit trying to make it work. The plan was to rebuild it with either a Rohloff or derailleur. My wife had a bad wreck though and knee surgery so it's been put off for a year. It's about time to start work again.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Out of curiosity, could you write a little bit about why you don't
                      > > like the NuVinci? The next time I rebuild my rear wheel, I've thought
                      > > about going that route.
                      > >
                      >
                    • thewollard
                      I just purchased a free radical. By just I mean I opened the boxes today. I took my bike to the shop to have the Free Radical installed on my Giant Sedona. The
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 6 3:18 PM
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                        I just purchased a free radical. By just I mean I opened the boxes today. I took my bike to the shop to have the Free Radical installed on my Giant Sedona.

                        The kickback shipped separately, and I'm going to install myself.

                        Will I have a chain issue without some sort of adaptor for my kickback?

                        Ryan - Near Orlando Florida


                        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "A" <andyboote@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > hi - I have a regular chainset and about to install a kickback. I bought
                        > this tensioner from CRC that clamps onto chainstay.
                        > http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1425073/sn/827448094/name/loads+008.jpg
                        > <http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1425073/sn/827448094/name/loads+008.jpg>
                        > (hopefully this link works).
                        >
                        > best
                        >
                        > Andy
                        >
                      • Andrew Kreps
                        ... I looked up some photos and it seems that the Giant Sedona has an external rear derailleur shifting system, which will get the chain out of the kickback s
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 6 3:39 PM
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                          On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 3:18 PM, thewollard <thewollard@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I just purchased a free radical. By just I mean I opened the boxes today. I took my bike to the shop to have the Free Radical installed on my Giant Sedona.
                          >
                          > The kickback shipped separately, and I'm going to install myself.
                          >
                          > Will I have a chain issue without some sort of adaptor for my kickback?


                          I looked up some photos and it seems that the Giant Sedona has an
                          external rear derailleur shifting system, which will get the chain out
                          of the kickback's way. The problems can come in when you try to route
                          an internally geared hub's chain around the kickback. Take a look at
                          your bike's chain vs. a single speed, and you may be able to see the
                          difference of which I speak.
                        • Jeff Youngstrom
                          Thanks, everyone for sharing your experience. I spent an hour on Saturday with my buddy at my LBS ordering new wheels and brakes and rotors and all kinds of
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 6 4:56 PM
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                            Thanks, everyone for sharing your experience. I spent an hour on Saturday with my buddy at my LBS ordering new wheels and brakes and rotors and all kinds of things to change my steed over to IGH plus disc. I decided to take a wait-and-see stance on the Kickback. I'll check back when LBS and I get the thing all put together.

                            Thanks!
                            Jeff
                          • Jeff Youngstrom
                            I got my bike back a couple of days ago. It took my poor shop monkey a whole day of tinkering to get the thing torn apart and put back together. In its current
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 14 3:54 PM
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                              I got my bike back a couple of days ago. It took my poor shop monkey a
                              whole day of tinkering to get the thing torn apart and put back
                              together.

                              In its current configuration there's no contact between Kickback and
                              chain in either the up or down position. I think this is because the
                              chain tensioner we used holds the chain pretty low.

                              This may change, though because I'm getting gear slippage when I push
                              off on starts. This is with all new chain, cog, and ring. So I'm
                              thinking either the chain needs to be tighter or I'm going to have to
                              do an idler to take up the slack and more fully wrap the ring. Anybody
                              got any other suggestions? I haven't talked to shop monkey about it
                              yet.

                              Thanks!
                              Jeff

                              On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
                              > Thanks, everyone for sharing your experience. I spent an hour on Saturday
                              > with my buddy at my LBS ordering new wheels and brakes and rotors and all
                              > kinds of things to change my steed over to IGH plus disc. I decided to take
                              > a wait-and-see stance on the Kickback. I'll check back when LBS and I get
                              > the thing all put together.
                              >
                              > Thanks!
                              > Jeff
                              >
                            • jtrops
                              Does it feel like it s slipping, or skipping? I could see skipping due to poor chain tension, or more likely poor chainline. If it s slipping it almost has
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 14 7:41 PM
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                                Does it feel like it's slipping, or skipping? I could see skipping due to poor chain tension, or more likely poor chainline. If it's slipping it almost has to be inside the hub. The only time I noticed slipping in my N171b was when it was very new, and only when I shifted the range from the highest gear to the lowest before applying pressure. I'd say that within the first week with the hub the effect was gone.

                                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I got my bike back a couple of days ago. It took my poor shop monkey a
                                > whole day of tinkering to get the thing torn apart and put back
                                > together.
                                >
                                > In its current configuration there's no contact between Kickback and
                                > chain in either the up or down position. I think this is because the
                                > chain tensioner we used holds the chain pretty low.
                                >
                                > This may change, though because I'm getting gear slippage when I push
                                > off on starts. This is with all new chain, cog, and ring. So I'm
                                > thinking either the chain needs to be tighter or I'm going to have to
                                > do an idler to take up the slack and more fully wrap the ring. Anybody
                                > got any other suggestions? I haven't talked to shop monkey about it
                                > yet.
                                >
                                > Thanks!
                                > Jeff
                                >
                                > On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
                                > > Thanks, everyone for sharing your experience. I spent an hour on Saturday
                                > > with my buddy at my LBS ordering new wheels and brakes and rotors and all
                                > > kinds of things to change my steed over to IGH plus disc. I decided to take
                                > > a wait-and-see stance on the Kickback. I'll check back when LBS and I get
                                > > the thing all put together.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks!
                                > > Jeff
                                > >
                                >
                              • Jeff Youngstrom
                                Sloppy language on my part. It s definitely the chain skipping. Feels and sounds exactly like it would start to after my cog, ring, and chain had become
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 15 3:00 PM
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                                  Sloppy language on my part. It's definitely the chain skipping. Feels and sounds exactly like it would start to after my cog, ring, and chain had become unreasonably worn.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Jeff

                                  On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 7:41 PM, jtrops <jtrops@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Does it feel like it's slipping, or skipping? I could see skipping due to poor chain tension, or more likely poor chainline. If it's slipping it almost has to be inside the hub. The only time I noticed slipping in my N171b was when it was very new, and only when I shifted the range from the highest gear to the lowest before applying pressure. I'd say that within the first week with the hub the effect was gone.


                                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I got my bike back a couple of days ago. It took my poor shop monkey a
                                  > whole day of tinkering to get the thing torn apart and put back
                                  > together.
                                  >
                                  > In its current configuration there's no contact between Kickback and
                                  > chain in either the up or down position. I think this is because the
                                  > chain tensioner we used holds the chain pretty low.
                                  >
                                  > This may change, though because I'm getting gear slippage when I push
                                  > off on starts. This is with all new chain, cog, and ring. So I'm
                                  > thinking either the chain needs to be tighter or I'm going to have to
                                  > do an idler to take up the slack and more fully wrap the ring. Anybody
                                  > got any other suggestions? I haven't talked to shop monkey about it
                                  > yet.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks!
                                  > Jeff
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Jeff Youngstrom <jeffy@...> wrote:
                                  > > Thanks, everyone for sharing your experience. I spent an hour on Saturday
                                  > > with my buddy at my LBS ordering new wheels and brakes and rotors and all
                                  > > kinds of things to change my steed over to IGH plus disc. I decided to take
                                  > > a wait-and-see stance on the Kickback. I'll check back when LBS and I get
                                  > > the thing all put together.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks!
                                  > > Jeff
                                  > >
                                  >


                                • Jeff Youngstrom
                                  Thought I d update this thread with the final solution. Turns out I was mistaken in thinking that I d gotten a new chainring. Replaced the old chainring with a
                                  Message 16 of 16 , May 13, 2011
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                                    Thought I'd update this thread with the final solution. Turns out I was mistaken in thinking that I'd gotten a new chainring. Replaced the old chainring with a new one to match the new chain and no more skipping.

                                    In the process of figuring this out, swapped out the new chain tensioner for an old derailleur which seems to work fine. Never had problems with the chain interacting with the kickback with either tensioner.

                                    Thanks for your help, gang!
                                    Jeff

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