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Dynamo Front Wheel

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  • Rich
    Well I just finished building and installing a Dynamo front wheel on the Big Dummmy so I now have a spare 26 front wheel with dic brake compatible Deore XT
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 21, 2010
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      Well I just finished building and installing a Dynamo front wheel on the Big Dummmy so I now have a spare 26" front wheel with dic brake compatible Deore XT hub. I will probably install a studded tire on the wheel to have it ready to stick on for snowy conditions this winter.

      I still need to install the dynamo driven lights. I wish the Xtracycle/Big Dummy V racks and snapdeck incorporated a ready to use taillight mount of some type. Even a fender mount light does not come back as far as I would like in relation to the V racks and bags.

      Rich Wood
    • David Chase
      Given that I am a DIY sort of guy, you might try something like this http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2927&bgcolor=black
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 21, 2010
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        Given that I am a DIY sort of guy, you might try something like this

        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2927&bgcolor=black
        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2928&bgcolor=black
        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2929&bgcolor=black

        That's an electrically bare LED, it assumes an upstream regulator.

        or like this

        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_4001&bgcolor=black
        http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_3998&bgcolor=black

        No lens, the native pattern is good enough.
        The LED is tucked in under
        the deck slightly to protect it from smashing.
        The mounting plate is aluminum square stock, glued to the snapdeck,
        in a pinch it can be tied on if the glue fails.

        Regulators are an entirely different kettle of fish;
        with a dynamo hub, you have to be careful of over-voltage.
        First rule is that they can put out a LOT more than 6 volts,
        3 watts. You might be better off just buying whatever is stock,
        and using square stock glued to snap-deck to make a place to mount.

        For DIY, if you are willing to suffer a little drag, there are
        circuits at pilom.com. I built something less draggy, but
        probably a lot more expensive (the circuit board alone is
        $15-$20, before parts, and the parts are another $30-$40,
        I will know it a little better when when I order them.
        I'm trying a new design, that ought to fit in a water-bottle
        storage container.

        David

        On 2010-09-21, at 2:49 PM, Rich wrote:

        > Well I just finished building and installing a Dynamo front wheel on the Big Dummmy so I now have a spare 26" front wheel with dic brake compatible Deore XT hub. I will probably install a studded tire on the wheel to have it ready to stick on for snowy conditions this winter.
        >
        > I still need to install the dynamo driven lights. I wish the Xtracycle/Big Dummy V racks and snapdeck incorporated a ready to use taillight mount of some type. Even a fender mount light does not come back as far as I would like in relation to the V racks and bags.
        >
        > Rich Wood
      • Steve Lange
        ... Hi Rich - Check out Peter White Cycles, he sells a t-bracket for about $5.50 that can be used to mount a taillight intended for rack mounting to the
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 21, 2010
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          On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Rich <astronut1001@...> wrote:

          I still need to install the dynamo driven lights.  I wish the Xtracycle/Big Dummy V racks and snapdeck incorporated a ready to use taillight mount of some type.  Even a fender mount light does not come back as far as I would like in relation to the V racks and bags.

          Hi Rich -

          Check out Peter White Cycles, he sells a t-bracket for about $5.50 that can be used to mount a taillight intended for rack mounting to the underside of a Snapdeck with some wood screws or similar.  You can easily position it such that it's protected by the Snapdeck and v-racks but still visible to vehicles to the rear and sides.

          Here's the image of the t-bracket:
          http://peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/B&M-t-bracket.jpg

          Here's the page where it's located (about 1/2 way down):
          http://peterwhitecycles.com/taillights.asp#diwa

          Hope that helps,

          Steve Lange
          Santa Barbara, CA
        • Rich
          I prefer the lighting patterns of the German B&M and Supernova asymmetrical beam dynamo lights. I will most likely use a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and the B&M
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 21, 2010
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            I prefer the lighting patterns of the German B&M and Supernova asymmetrical beam dynamo lights. I will most likely use a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and the B&M Toplight Line Plus taillight.

            Be nice if Xtracycle offered a taillight bracket designed to fit the Flight Deck which is what I currently am using rather than the wooden Snapdeck. I can make something as I am a hobbyist machinist but many people cannot do such work due to lack of equipment.

            Rich Wood

            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
            >
            > Given that I am a DIY sort of guy, you might try something like this
            >
            > http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2927&bgcolor=black
            > http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2928&bgcolor=black
            > http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_2929&bgcolor=black
            >
            > That's an electrically bare LED, it assumes an upstream regulator.
            >
            > or like this
            >
            > http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_4001&bgcolor=black
            > http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_3998&bgcolor=black
            >
            > No lens, the native pattern is good enough.
            > The LED is tucked in under
            > the deck slightly to protect it from smashing.
            > The mounting plate is aluminum square stock, glued to the snapdeck,
            > in a pinch it can be tied on if the glue fails.
            >
            > Regulators are an entirely different kettle of fish;
            > with a dynamo hub, you have to be careful of over-voltage.
            > First rule is that they can put out a LOT more than 6 volts,
            > 3 watts. You might be better off just buying whatever is stock,
            > and using square stock glued to snap-deck to make a place to mount.
            >
            > For DIY, if you are willing to suffer a little drag, there are
            > circuits at pilom.com. I built something less draggy, but
            > probably a lot more expensive (the circuit board alone is
            > $15-$20, before parts, and the parts are another $30-$40,
            > I will know it a little better when when I order them.
            > I'm trying a new design, that ought to fit in a water-bottle
            > storage container.
            >
            > David
            >
            > On 2010-09-21, at 2:49 PM, Rich wrote:
            >
            > > Well I just finished building and installing a Dynamo front wheel on the Big Dummmy so I now have a spare 26" front wheel with dic brake compatible Deore XT hub. I will probably install a studded tire on the wheel to have it ready to stick on for snowy conditions this winter.
            > >
            > > I still need to install the dynamo driven lights. I wish the Xtracycle/Big Dummy V racks and snapdeck incorporated a ready to use taillight mount of some type. Even a fender mount light does not come back as far as I would like in relation to the V racks and bags.
            > >
            > > Rich Wood
            >
          • David Chase
            I ve become an un-fan of B&M. Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 21, 2010
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              I've become an un-fan of B&M.
              Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the entire affair. I do not spend that kind of money for half-assed, slow, customer service.

              Their basic screwup was they did not properly pot their electronics, and instead relied on "seals" to keep water out, and the seals failed. Whoops.

              I've built lighting systems for four bikes, they all live outdoors, they all work, some of them after being outside, with no shelter, for two years (in Amherst, MA, attending college with my son). No way in heck am I going to spend that kind of money on bad design again.

              Caveat emptor.

              David

              On 2010-09-21, at 7:24 PM, Rich wrote:

              > I prefer the lighting patterns of the German B&M and Supernova asymmetrical beam dynamo lights. I will most likely use a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and the B&M Toplight Line Plus taillight.
              >
              > Be nice if Xtracycle offered a taillight bracket designed to fit the Flight Deck which is what I currently am using rather than the wooden Snapdeck. I can make something as I am a hobbyist machinist but many people cannot do such work due to lack of equipment.
              >
              > Rich Wood
            • Cara Lin Bridgman
              Speaking of lighting systems and of electronics that aren t weather-proof, this summer I lost both my down-low-glow
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 21, 2010
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                Speaking of lighting systems and of electronics that aren't
                weather-proof, this summer I lost both my down-low-glow
                (<http://rockthebike.com/lights/downlowglow>) and my bike glow
                (<www.bikeglow.com>) after biking through washing-machine-like conditions.

                Since it was within warranty, Rock the Bike is working on me with a free
                replacement (or a steeply discounted upgrade for the new model they're
                releasing later this year).

                Bike glow hasn't responded to my emails--and there's no way to email
                them directly. I have to use their online system.

                With the down low glow, I'm assuming it's the bulb. The battery pack
                was kept in the same place as my controllers for the bike glow and for
                my stokemonkey. For the bike glow, it's the battery-pack-controller
                that doesn't work. The stokemonkey controller (from Clevercycles) and
                LeFePo4 battery pack (from Cycle 9) are just doing great and keep going
                and going and keep me going and going! All were in the inner pocket of
                my freeloaders AND covered by an old rain cape. This picture is from
                the night both lights pooped out: <
                http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/Bike/CL%27sBike/100726-343UnderwaterBike2d.jpg>.
                Pictures of the bike with lights installed and operating and of the
                rain-cape as bike rain cover are here:
                <http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/Bike/CL%27sBike/CL%27sBike.html>

                CL

                David Chase wrote:
                > Their basic screwup was they did not properly pot their electronics, and instead relied on "seals" to keep water out, and the seals failed. Whoops.
                >
                > I've built lighting systems for four bikes, they all live outdoors, they all work, some of them after being outside, with no shelter, for two years (in Amherst, MA, attending college with my son). No way in heck am I going to spend that kind of money on bad design again.
              • David Chase
                The way you protect this stuff, as much as possible, is with potting . I had a query off the list, to pot means to cover in protective goo, usually epoxy
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 22, 2010
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                  The way you protect this stuff, as much as possible, is with "potting". I had a query off the list, to "pot" means to cover in protective goo, usually epoxy or wax, and plenty-equals-enough.

                  Silicone rubber is a possibility, but the acetic acid that some formulations give off when curing is not-so-good for some metals (meaning, for some circuit boards).

                  So, for example, I am working on an improved lighting controller for my bike, that should fit in a water-bottle cage, and when it fits in its container, I plan to pour melted paraffin wax all over it, at least an inch deep. (Paraffin is a little brittle, but it melts at a low temperature which is good for the electronics, has a high heat capacity which is good in case something gets temporarily hot, and is nonreactive and nonconducting. And it's cheap, and if I screw up or something breaks, you can melt it off again.)

                  One way around the brittle problem is a light layer of paraffin to seal everything, like dipping a candle, and then slather it in something else, like silicone, which is not brittle. Once the silicone cures, the paraffin layer might crack underneath it, but by then you don't care about the acetic acid because it is cured. I've also done this with epoxy under silicone, you could even use nail polish on the exposed metal, just a layer to keep the reactive chemicals away while the silicone cures.

                  OR, you simply seal it all in epoxy, completely, for good.

                  Another thing that helps, if you have access to a heat gun, is heat-shrink tubing. All the connections on my bike are soldered, then sealed in heat shrink tubing.

                  I am not entirely sure how suitable beeswax is for this; it has a higher melting point, well within the limits of modern electronics, but it has other "stuff" in it that might be reactive, that might conduct electricity. I can test this, and probably will. Compared to paraffin, it is less brittle, which is a good thing. Note that because of its higher melting point (and chemical compatibility with paraffin) that you could not pre-seal with paraffin to prevent contact of other beeswax stuff with electronics; it would melt and dissolve the paraffin.

                  Foamy window/door sealant is another possibility, but I know nothing about its chemical composition, or whether it might let water through later, and since it insulates, if the electronics get hot, they stay hot.

                  David

                  On 2010-09-22, at 1:19 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:

                  > Speaking of lighting systems and of electronics that aren't
                  > weather-proof, this summer I lost both my down-low-glow
                  > (<http://rockthebike.com/lights/downlowglow>) and my bike glow
                  > (<www.bikeglow.com>) after biking through washing-machine-like conditions.
                  >
                  > Since it was within warranty, Rock the Bike is working on me with a free
                  > replacement (or a steeply discounted upgrade for the new model they're
                  > releasing later this year).
                  >
                  > Bike glow hasn't responded to my emails--and there's no way to email
                  > them directly. I have to use their online system.
                  >
                  > With the down low glow, I'm assuming it's the bulb. The battery pack
                  > was kept in the same place as my controllers for the bike glow and for
                  > my stokemonkey. For the bike glow, it's the battery-pack-controller
                  > that doesn't work. The stokemonkey controller (from Clevercycles) and
                  > LeFePo4 battery pack (from Cycle 9) are just doing great and keep going
                  > and going and keep me going and going! All were in the inner pocket of
                  > my freeloaders AND covered by an old rain cape. This picture is from
                  > the night both lights pooped out: <
                  > http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/Bike/CL%27sBike/100726-343UnderwaterBike2d.jpg>.
                  > Pictures of the bike with lights installed and operating and of the
                  > rain-cape as bike rain cover are here:
                  > <http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/Bike/CL%27sBike/CL%27sBike.html>
                  >
                  > CL
                  >
                  > David Chase wrote:
                  > > Their basic screwup was they did not properly pot their electronics, and instead relied on "seals" to keep water out, and the seals failed. Whoops.
                  > >
                  > > I've built lighting systems for four bikes, they all live outdoors, they all work, some of them after being outside, with no shelter, for two years (in Amherst, MA, attending college with my son). No way in heck am I going to spend that kind of money on bad design again.
                  >
                  >
                • Rich
                  David; No problem with my B&M Dymotec 6 but it has minimal to no electronics per my understanding. I take it that you had the S6 or S12 versions with internal
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 22, 2010
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                    David;

                    No problem with my B&M Dymotec 6 but it has minimal to no electronics per my understanding. I take it that you had the S6 or S12 versions with internal voltage regulation? Also no problems with either the IQ Cyo I have used or the B&M dynamo taillight. I also have Supernova lights on one bike.

                    The curent price on the S12 ($300) makes it more expensive than even the SON dynamo hubs and I cannot believe that the 12V and regulator electronics justify the price.

                    I do though live in a desert area (Reno, NV) and do not often ride in rainy conditions.

                    Rich Wood

                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I've become an un-fan of B&M.
                    > Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the entire affair. I do not spend that kind of money for half-assed, slow, customer service.
                    >
                    > Their basic screwup was they did not properly pot their electronics, and instead relied on "seals" to keep water out, and the seals failed. Whoops.
                    >
                    > I've built lighting systems for four bikes, they all live outdoors, they all work, some of them after being outside, with no shelter, for two years (in Amherst, MA, attending college with my son). No way in heck am I going to spend that kind of money on bad design again.
                    >
                    > Caveat emptor.
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                    > On 2010-09-21, at 7:24 PM, Rich wrote:
                    >
                    > > I prefer the lighting patterns of the German B&M and Supernova asymmetrical beam dynamo lights. I will most likely use a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and the B&M Toplight Line Plus taillight.
                    > >
                    > > Be nice if Xtracycle offered a taillight bracket designed to fit the Flight Deck which is what I currently am using rather than the wooden Snapdeck. I can make something as I am a hobbyist machinist but many people cannot do such work due to lack of equipment.
                    > >
                    > > Rich Wood
                    >
                  • David Chase
                    I had the S12, which at the time I believed that I needed for electrical reasons, and that any 6 volt source would not be adequate. It does have internal
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 22, 2010
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                      I had the S12, which at the time I believed that I needed for electrical reasons, and that any "6 volt" source would not be adequate. It does have internal regulation, which is what failed. I consider this one of the more expensive mistakes I have made in my life. And, additionally, the materials cost of the electronics was minor.

                      It turns out that "6 volt" dynamo hubs, certainly the Shimano hubs, do develop (very) high voltages at reasonable power levels, but I didn't know it at the time. The thing to know about alternators (which is what these hubs really are) is that they have a sweet spot for power production, and that their rated specification is far from that sweet spot. "6 volts, 3 watts" means that 1/2 an amp is coming from the hub. That is too much, and wastes energy (generates drag) in the hub itself. The guy at pilom.com found that the Shimano hubs (he did not measure the SON, I wish that he had) have their sweet spot at 1/5 of an amp, and when you draw that little current, produce a voltage that is roughly double your speed (on a 26-27" wheel) in miles-per-hour. That is, at 10mph, 20 volts, and 4 watts. Notice that 4 is a bigger number than 3, yet because you are drawing only 40% of the current, you will experience only 40% of the power-generation drag (at least, that is my understanding).

                      More power, less drag, what's not to like? The one thing to watch out for is that easily available LED regulators have a peak input voltage of 32V -- at 16mph, uh-oh. It is possible to increase the current drawn from the hub as the voltage approaches that limit, but you will increase drag and get less power than is otherwise possible. The problem is, you have to have somewhere to put the power.

                      (I have grand plans to build a regulator that can tolerate up to 65 volts, but I need a hunk of spare time to figure out all the details, which include bits of control theory AND real-time embedded software. Yutch.)

                      I suspect, but do not know for sure, that the SON hub gets its low drag with internal regulation, for example, controlling the current through some (hypothetical) field coils. I don't know this, they don't say, and these hypothetical electronics are sealed inside a hub where they cannot easily be fixed if they break. The hypothetical electronics may not play well with an external regulator, also. So, I stay away, especially given my experience with Peter White and other electrical failures.

                      My electronics can also fail, but they are documented (open-sourced, even) and also external to the hub, so they can be repaired separately. In a pinch, it is even possible to reconfigure them into a simpler system will run the rectified hub output directly through the LEDs in a high-drag configuration.

                      I'm also quite suspicious when I see "stand lights" advertised, especially those claiming to use "capacitors". The energy in a capacitor is 1/2 C V-squared. Every second you run a 1 watt headlight consumes a Joule of energy. A super capacitor, charged to 10V, has total energy 50C, where C is capacitance in farads. Discharging to 7V consumes 25C (at a certain point, the voltage is too low for the lights). A 10V, 1 Farad supercapacitor could run a 1W system for 25 seconds, or a 2W system (mine, at low power) for 12.5 seconds. You could make a 10V 1F capacitor from 2 5V, 2.5F supercaps, which at Digikey are listed at $6.06 each, or $3.24 each in lots of 500. To run 2 watts for a whole minute requires 8 of these, or $48 (might as well buy 10 for $55.55), then zip, no lights.

                      On 2010-09-22, at 12:18 PM, Rich wrote:

                      > David;
                      >
                      > No problem with my B&M Dymotec 6 but it has minimal to no electronics per my understanding. I take it that you had the S6 or S12 versions with internal voltage regulation? Also no problems with either the IQ Cyo I have used or the B&M dynamo taillight. I also have Supernova lights on one bike.
                      >
                      > The curent price on the S12 ($300) makes it more expensive than even the SON dynamo hubs and I cannot believe that the 12V and regulator electronics justify the price.
                      >
                      > I do though live in a desert area (Reno, NV) and do not often ride in rainy conditions.
                      >
                      > Rich Wood
                      >
                      > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I've become an un-fan of B&M.
                      > > Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the entire affair. I do not spend that kind of money for half-assed, slow, customer service.
                      > >
                      > > Their basic screwup was they did not properly pot their electronics, and instead relied on "seals" to keep water out, and the seals failed. Whoops.
                      > >
                      > > I've built lighting systems for four bikes, they all live outdoors, they all work, some of them after being outside, with no shelter, for two years (in Amherst, MA, attending college with my son). No way in heck am I going to spend that kind of money on bad design again.
                      > >
                      > > Caveat emptor.
                      > >
                      > > David
                      > >
                      > > On 2010-09-21, at 7:24 PM, Rich wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I prefer the lighting patterns of the German B&M and Supernova asymmetrical beam dynamo lights. I will most likely use a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and the B&M Toplight Line Plus taillight.
                      > > >
                      > > > Be nice if Xtracycle offered a taillight bracket designed to fit the Flight Deck which is what I currently am using rather than the wooden Snapdeck. I can make something as I am a hobbyist machinist but many people cannot do such work due to lack of equipment.
                      > > >
                      > > > Rich Wood
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • Rich
                      David; Not sure how they control discharge rate of the supercaps but I have three dynamo LED lights with standlight function. None of them run the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 22, 2010
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                        David;

                        Not sure how they control discharge rate of the supercaps but I have three dynamo LED lights with "standlight" function. None of them run the standlight at any where near full LED brightness. In fact the Light-On runs one of its two LEDs for the standlight and the Supernova E3 Triple runs one of its 3 LEDs for the standlight. The LED standlights are to provide some visibility of the user and are run at a "To be seen" light level rather than anywhere near full LED brightness. That way they do last for several minutes as do the Supernova and Light-on LED taillights which are again run at reduced brightness in "standlight" mode.

                        Go back and reread the Pilom tests. IIRC the output amps of the test dynamos was run through a voltage doubler circuit prior to being measured which would halve the listed current if I remember my electronics correctly. My memory could be faulty too though.

                        Rich Wood


                        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I had the S12, which at the time I believed that I needed for electrical reasons, and that any "6 volt" source would not be adequate. It does have internal regulation, which is what failed. I consider this one of the more expensive mistakes I have made in my life. And, additionally, the materials cost of the electronics was minor.
                        >
                        > It turns out that "6 volt" dynamo hubs, certainly the Shimano hubs, do develop (very) high voltages at reasonable power levels, but I didn't know it at the time. The thing to know about alternators (which is what these hubs really are) is that they have a sweet spot for power production, and that their rated specification is far from that sweet spot. "6 volts, 3 watts" means that 1/2 an amp is coming from the hub. That is too much, and wastes energy (generates drag) in the hub itself. The guy at pilom.com found that the Shimano hubs (he did not measure the SON, I wish that he had) have their sweet spot at 1/5 of an amp, and when you draw that little current, produce a voltage that is roughly double your speed (on a 26-27" wheel) in miles-per-hour. That is, at 10mph, 20 volts, and 4 watts. Notice that 4 is a bigger number than 3, yet because you are drawing only 40% of the current, you will experience only 40% of the power-generation drag (at least, that is my understanding).
                        >
                        > More power, less drag, what's not to like? The one thing to watch out for is that easily available LED regulators have a peak input voltage of 32V -- at 16mph, uh-oh. It is possible to increase the current drawn from the hub as the voltage approaches that limit, but you will increase drag and get less power than is otherwise possible. The problem is, you have to have somewhere to put the power.
                        >
                        > (I have grand plans to build a regulator that can tolerate up to 65 volts, but I need a hunk of spare time to figure out all the details, which include bits of control theory AND real-time embedded software. Yutch.)
                        >
                        > I suspect, but do not know for sure, that the SON hub gets its low drag with internal regulation, for example, controlling the current through some (hypothetical) field coils. I don't know this, they don't say, and these hypothetical electronics are sealed inside a hub where they cannot easily be fixed if they break. The hypothetical electronics may not play well with an external regulator, also. So, I stay away, especially given my experience with Peter White and other electrical failures.
                        >
                        > My electronics can also fail, but they are documented (open-sourced, even) and also external to the hub, so they can be repaired separately. In a pinch, it is even possible to reconfigure them into a simpler system will run the rectified hub output directly through the LEDs in a high-drag configuration.
                        >
                        > I'm also quite suspicious when I see "stand lights" advertised, especially those claiming to use "capacitors". The energy in a capacitor is 1/2 C V-squared. Every second you run a 1 watt headlight consumes a Joule of energy. A super capacitor, charged to 10V, has total energy 50C, where C is capacitance in farads. Discharging to 7V consumes 25C (at a certain point, the voltage is too low for the lights). A 10V, 1 Farad supercapacitor could run a 1W system for 25 seconds, or a 2W system (mine, at low power) for 12.5 seconds. You could make a 10V 1F capacitor from 2 5V, 2.5F supercaps, which at Digikey are listed at $6.06 each, or $3.24 each in lots of 500. To run 2 watts for a whole minute requires 8 of these, or $48 (might as well buy 10 for $55.55), then zip, no lights.
                        >
                        > On 2010-09-22, at 12:18 PM, Rich wrote:
                        >
                        > > David;
                        > >
                        > > No problem with my B&M Dymotec 6 but it has minimal to no electronics per my understanding. I take it that you had the S6 or S12 versions with internal voltage regulation? Also no problems with either the IQ Cyo I have used or the B&M dynamo taillight. I also have Supernova lights on one bike.
                        > >
                        > > The curent price on the S12 ($300) makes it more expensive than even the SON dynamo hubs and I cannot believe that the 12V and regulator electronics justify the price.
                        > >
                        > > I do though live in a desert area (Reno, NV) and do not often ride in rainy conditions.
                        > >
                        > > Rich Wood
                        > >
                        > > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I've become an un-fan of B&M.
                        > > > Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the entire affair. I do not spend that kind of money for half-assed, slow, customer service.
                        > > >
                        > > > Their basic screwup was they did not properly pot their electronics, and instead relied on "seals" to keep water out, and the seals failed. Whoops.
                        > > >
                        > > > I've built lighting systems for four bikes, they all live outdoors, they all work, some of them after being outside, with no shelter, for two years (in Amherst, MA, attending college with my son). No way in heck am I going to spend that kind of money on bad design again.
                        > > >
                        > > > Caveat emptor.
                        > > >
                        > > > David
                        > > >
                        > > > On 2010-09-21, at 7:24 PM, Rich wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > I prefer the lighting patterns of the German B&M and Supernova asymmetrical beam dynamo lights. I will most likely use a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and the B&M Toplight Line Plus taillight.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Be nice if Xtracycle offered a taillight bracket designed to fit the Flight Deck which is what I currently am using rather than the wooden Snapdeck. I can make something as I am a hobbyist machinist but many people cannot do such work due to lack of equipment.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Rich Wood
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • David Chase
                        Your memory is correct, and I use that same doubler circuit (*). You definitely need it for low speed operation. Another option for dealing with the higher
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 22, 2010
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                          Your memory is correct, and I use that same doubler circuit (*). You definitely need it for low speed operation. Another option for dealing with the higher voltages is to disable the doubler circuit at higher speeds and pull more current (and in fact, that's probably the sensible route to take). But that also affects my drag estimate -- 80% (20% reduction), not 40% (60% reduction).

                          (*) Minor detail, I've got protective diodes on the electrolytic booster caps, which changes it slightly, but not a lot. I tested this with actual circuits to be sure. One advantage to the modified circuit is that if you take the caps out, you get a full-wave rectifier, just like that.

                          On 2010-09-22, at 2:43 PM, Rich wrote:

                          > David;
                          >
                          > Not sure how they control discharge rate of the supercaps but I have three dynamo LED lights with "standlight" function. None of them run the standlight at any where near full LED brightness. In fact the Light-On runs one of its two LEDs for the standlight and the Supernova E3 Triple runs one of its 3 LEDs for the standlight. The LED standlights are to provide some visibility of the user and are run at a "To be seen" light level rather than anywhere near full LED brightness. That way they do last for several minutes as do the Supernova and Light-on LED taillights which are again run at reduced brightness in "standlight" mode.
                          >
                          > Go back and reread the Pilom tests. IIRC the output amps of the test dynamos was run through a voltage doubler circuit prior to being measured which would halve the listed current if I remember my electronics correctly. My memory could be faulty too though.
                          >
                          > Rich Wood
                        • Steve Lange
                          ... Just for another data point - I ve got an IQ Cyo (1.5yrs old) on one bike and an IQ Fly (2.5yrs old) on the other, both coupled with Shimano dynamo hubs,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 22, 2010
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                            On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:55 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                            I've become an un-fan of B&M.
                            Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the entire affair.  I do not spend that kind of money for half-assed, slow, customer service.

                            Just for another data point - I've got an IQ Cyo (1.5yrs old) on one bike and an IQ Fly (2.5yrs old) on the other, both coupled with Shimano dynamo hubs, and they've been bombproof through all sorts of soaking, rainy weather, including a day-long, 140mi drench-fest this past February in the worst rainstorm we had last winter. No problems at all.

                            Steve Lange
                            Santa Barbara, CA
                          • Rich
                            Steve; Your experience pretty much matches mine. David did not indicate if his B&M S12 was out of warranty or not but it seems that these days with most things
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 23, 2010
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                              Steve;

                              Your experience pretty much matches mine.

                              David did not indicate if his B&M S12 was out of warranty or not but it seems that these days with most things if the warranty is up you are SOL as far as repair or free/discounted replacement of items is concerned. In many cases, such as for consumer electronics such as TVs, after 3 years shops cannot even get some replacement parts as many ICs used in mass produced electronics are custom parts. Many items are glued or sonic welded together so are not readily disassemblable for repair.

                              I still like dynamo lighting for the convenience and the fact that it is pretty much idiot proof, like car electronics, unless you have a failure. Having to remember to charge headlight batteries and/or carry replacements for taillight batteries is a PITA compared to dynamo lighting once installed. Operate a switch and pedal and you have light and some lights with "Senso" operation come on automatically as it gets dark. You cannot get much more idiot proof than that.

                              Just one step in trying to make the bike as convenient a transportation method as possible.

                              Rich Wood


                              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:55 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > I've become an un-fan of B&M.
                              > > Had an expensive sidewall dynamo crap out, far too early, mostly from the
                              > > wet, and Peter White was little help throughout the entire affair. I do not
                              > > spend that kind of money for half-assed, slow, customer service.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Just for another data point - I've got an IQ Cyo (1.5yrs old) on one bike
                              > and an IQ Fly (2.5yrs old) on the other, both coupled with Shimano dynamo
                              > hubs, and they've been bombproof through all sorts of soaking, rainy
                              > weather, including a day-long, 140mi drench-fest this past February in the
                              > worst rainstorm we had last winter. No problems at all.
                              >
                              > Steve Lange
                              > Santa Barbara, CA
                              >
                            • David Chase
                              ... The initial seal failure was well within a year; I got the impression that I had broken an unwritten rule, from the feedback I finally got, because in
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                On 2010-09-23, at 12:07 PM, Rich wrote:
                                > David did not indicate if his B&M S12 was out of warranty or not but it seems that these days with most things if the warranty is up you are SOL as far as repair or free/discounted replacement of items is concerned

                                The initial seal failure was well within a year; I got the impression that I had broken an unwritten rule, from the feedback I finally got, because in mounting the dynamo on the free radical, it was insufficiently vertical to keep water out. I eventually bought a Zinkins mount for the front, which broke, and I replaced it, and that one broke, too.

                                For a while I used a vastly less expensive Varta (?) dynamo, which never failed exactly, but the catch holding it off the wheel eventually broke. However, I have two of these on my kids bikes, and they have not failed yet.

                                I bought a Shimano Dynamo hub, and I have been happy ever since.

                                I am a little worried about my ability to rebuild, or not, the bearings; I am hoping that the electrical side is sealed, because I poked at it a little (very carefully) and decided that there were no user serviceable parts in there.

                                As far as warranty goes, the story nowadays seems to be that even if there is a warranty, nobody is going to volunteer that information, even if you go back to the place where you bought (say) your expensive IGH and mention that it failed utterly in about a year, and is there anything I can do to take care of it. (That was Harris -- as you may have noticed, I will not be shy about naming names when things fall short of expectations.)

                                > In many cases, such as for consumer electronics such as TVs, after 3 years shops cannot even get some replacement parts as many ICs used in mass produced electronics are custom parts. Many items are glued or sonic welded together so are not readily disassemblable for repair.

                                David
                              • Rich
                                If it was not in the installation instructions then IMO the dynamo should have been replaced under warranty. ALL mounting requirements should be covered in
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                  If it was not in the installation instructions then IMO the dynamo should have been replaced under warranty. ALL mounting requirements should be covered in provided documentation.

                                  Rich Wood

                                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 2010-09-23, at 12:07 PM, Rich wrote:
                                  > > David did not indicate if his B&M S12 was out of warranty or not but it seems that these days with most things if the warranty is up you are SOL as far as repair or free/discounted replacement of items is concerned
                                  >
                                  > The initial seal failure was well within a year; I got the impression that I had broken an unwritten rule, from the feedback I finally got, because in mounting the dynamo on the free radical, it was insufficiently vertical to keep water out. I eventually bought a Zinkins mount for the front, which broke, and I replaced it, and that one broke, too.
                                  >
                                  > For a while I used a vastly less expensive Varta (?) dynamo, which never failed exactly, but the catch holding it off the wheel eventually broke. However, I have two of these on my kids bikes, and they have not failed yet.
                                  >
                                  > I bought a Shimano Dynamo hub, and I have been happy ever since.
                                  >
                                  > I am a little worried about my ability to rebuild, or not, the bearings; I am hoping that the electrical side is sealed, because I poked at it a little (very carefully) and decided that there were no user serviceable parts in there.
                                  >
                                  > As far as warranty goes, the story nowadays seems to be that even if there is a warranty, nobody is going to volunteer that information, even if you go back to the place where you bought (say) your expensive IGH and mention that it failed utterly in about a year, and is there anything I can do to take care of it. (That was Harris -- as you may have noticed, I will not be shy about naming names when things fall short of expectations.)
                                  >
                                  > > In many cases, such as for consumer electronics such as TVs, after 3 years shops cannot even get some replacement parts as many ICs used in mass produced electronics are custom parts. Many items are glued or sonic welded together so are not readily disassemblable for repair.
                                  >
                                  > David
                                  >
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