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Re: Bicycle safety & transportation politics

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  • WV Tenor
    ... Unless you are going to build a freight rail spur to every business or residence, SOME of the trip the goods make from port or factory to destination will
    Message 1 of 30 , May 7 12:26 PM
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      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
      >
      > I would expect the trucking transport industry to be against it. IMO they want the whole country paved to give easy access to trucks even though they are almost the least efficient heavy goods transport method, well behind both rail and water shipment from an energy standpoint. The only thing less efficient per ton mile is air transport.
      >

      Unless you are going to build a freight rail spur to every business or residence, SOME of the trip the goods make from port or factory to destination will be by truck.

      I used to live along the Mississippi and remember barges with all sorts of goods on them. I live on the Kanawha and the only things I see on barges is coal and chemicals. I agree that I'd like to see more use of our navigable rivers for transportation. There should, for example, be more passenger boats connecting river towns.
    • Liz W. Durham
      Scott- You re specific instructions for your youngest sound like how I got my son to keep his helmet on and not mess with it when I started riding with him. He
      Message 2 of 30 , May 7 12:45 PM
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        Scott-

        You’re specific instructions for your youngest sound like how I got my son to keep his helmet on and not mess with it when I started riding with him. He was not quite a year old at the time. So thanks for offering that up…it is a great reminder of how I can go about training him to ride without the kid seat. And I appreciate your point about sitting on a slippery surface; little ones can slide wiggle around enough on their own without the added worry of too smooth of a surface for their backsides. And I will look into the fork standers. I had been wondering about a good foot peg solution.

         

        I think I can trust my son to follow basic rules. He has been riding with me for as long as he can remember. He has been asking to ride without his kid seat for a few months now and I have been putting it off by saying he needs to be a bit older and ready to follow new rules. He knows that “wiggling” around too much is not allowed. But holding on to stoker bars will be a new thing. I believe he is ready…this is more about ME being ready.

         

        You ride in the D.C. area…how do you fare when riding with your children and there is a bit of traffic? Do your children notice/are they bothered by cars that drive by a bit close?

         

        From: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Diane
        Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 8:52 AM
        To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one

         

         

        Liz,

        I'm sort of in your same situation, but with my second son. Normally, I carry both kids using my one-off double seat snapdeck replacement. I've installed regular seat belts from the auto store, so I've got a lot of confidence that they'll stay put. If I've only got one of them, I use either the belted replacement seat or the standard snapdeck. (Note that I have a Magic Carpet covering the regular snapdeck--it's non-slippery surface really helps to keep things in place down during riding.) My first (age 5) has made a good transition to the Magic Carpet, but I don't have the same confidence in his 3 year old younger brother.

        On the rare occasion I've ridden the younger one around on the Magic Carpet, I give him very specific instructions. First and foremost, I ask him to keep his hands on the stoker bars. If he takes them off, even for just a minute, we stop and repeat the rules. The second rule is to keep his weight in the center. It's really easy to feel when he's shifted his weight and it's most often when he's looking down to one side or the other. Again, stopping and repeating the rules keeps him in line. The final rule I ask him to keep is to squeeze his knees together to help hold him down. This is akin to what you do on horseback.

        I have one last suggestion to pass on that I learned from a fellow Roots Radical: Odyssey Fork Standers. These are old-school fork pegs intended to attach to each arm of the front fork of a BMX bike for tricks. I was able to find a couple on eBay for about $30. They are attached to my V-racks just above the Whatchamacollars and give young riders an excellent place to put their feet. They even fold up against the v-rack tubing when not in use. I'll note that I needed to build up a substantial shim (something like 15 layers of cut-up aluminum cans on each side), but they're tight. Like a custom seat, you only need it a few seasons. My five year old's legs are too long to make any use of the pegs, but he's tall for his age.

        Best of luck with the training.

        Scott
        Washington, DC

        --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Liz W. Durham" <lizwdurham@...> wrote:

        >
        > Ok, I have been riding with my son in a strapped in seat mounted on the
        > snapdeck and am about ready to progress to him just riding directly on the
        > deck with a handlebar for holding on. He will be 4 in August and is really
        > outgrowing his current seat set up. My question is not about getting him
        > physically set up for his new way of riding, it is more about safety and
        > general riding concerns.
        >
        >
        >
        > I let him ride on the deck the other day just through the neighborhood. He
        > sat behind his seat and held on. He didn't seem to have any problems or
        > concerns or fears. The concerns are all on my part. So, for those of you
        > riding with youngsters seated on the deck (or otherwise not strapped in).
        >
        >
        >
        > Do you keep solely to paths and smaller neighborhood streets?
        >
        > Do you ride much slower?
        >
        > How do you deal with sleepy kids on the back?
        >
        > How often, if ever, do you need to worry about their distractibility
        > creating a dangerous situation?
        >
        >
        >
        > Any input would be great!
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Liz
        >

      • Rich
        I agree but long distance trucking makes little economic or energy use sense, at least to me. An awful lot of what used to be secondary railroad track that
        Message 3 of 30 , May 7 9:01 PM
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          I agree but long distance trucking makes little economic or energy use sense, at least to me.

          An awful lot of what used to be secondary railroad track that served agricultural towns and factories has been ripped up and rail service to those locations abandoned. Now they HAVE to use truck transport.

          As a kid I went with my grandfather to haul mail from the post office to the train depot and back. Mail cars have disappeared along with most passenger trains. Express mail was thrown out of the trains while at speed and pickups done by a folding hook that was swung out from the mail car that grabbed the bag which was hung up from a special pole. A steam train at speed thundering through town was an impressive sight!

          IMO not all of our "progress" truly has been, at least from an energy efficiency and ecological standpoint.

          Rich Wood

          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "WV Tenor" <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I would expect the trucking transport industry to be against it. IMO they want the whole country paved to give easy access to trucks even though they are almost the least efficient heavy goods transport method, well behind both rail and water shipment from an energy standpoint. The only thing less efficient per ton mile is air transport.
          > >
          >
          > Unless you are going to build a freight rail spur to every business or residence, SOME of the trip the goods make from port or factory to destination will be by truck.
          >
          > I used to live along the Mississippi and remember barges with all sorts of goods on them. I live on the Kanawha and the only things I see on barges is coal and chemicals. I agree that I'd like to see more use of our navigable rivers for transportation. There should, for example, be more passenger boats connecting river towns.
          >
        • fred
          Hi, I ride daily with two kids (4 and 2yo) on a double seat replacing the snapdeck. I don t feel comfortable riding with them without the seatbelts at all.
          Message 4 of 30 , May 8 3:13 AM
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            Hi,
            I ride daily with two kids (4 and 2yo) on a double seat replacing the snapdeck. I don't feel comfortable riding with them without the seatbelts at all. Majo reasons are:
            1) they sleep every single time we ride at some point;
            2) they like to sing, dance, point at dogs, people, other bikes etc., so I don't believe they will hold the handlebars securely enough to support themselves because they are distracted and playing games.
            3) Sometimes I ride fast because I take them to swimming lessons, physician appointment and all other places; well, fast is relative but at 35 km/h (>20mph?) I wouldn't really even like to consider a kid flying off the deck if I pull the brakes.
            So, as someone posted, every kid is different and have particular habits. Moreover, riding styles is also different between riders and also in different situations (communting versus recreational).
            In my case, I don't think I can rely on their attention to safety because that could force them (even considering only my older kid) to ride less joyfully and more seriously, and that I think destroys one ofthe very reason for using bikes. In addition to that I don't want to give up the possibility of riding a bit faster with them whenever I need (being late for a class of something), and also I don't want to worry about them sleeping when riding with me (which happens every single say with me - figure kids after swimming and eating like hungry hobbits then seating on confortable bike seats to ride home :-)
            If you decide you're ready for it, please let us know how it goes!
            Take care,
            Fred

            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Liz W. Durham" <lizwdurham@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ok, I have been riding with my son in a strapped in seat mounted on the
            > snapdeck and am about ready to progress to him just riding directly on the
            > deck with a handlebar for holding on. He will be 4 in August and is really
            > outgrowing his current seat set up. My question is not about getting him
            > physically set up for his new way of riding, it is more about safety and
            > general riding concerns.
            >
            >
            >
            > I let him ride on the deck the other day just through the neighborhood. He
            > sat behind his seat and held on. He didn't seem to have any problems or
            > concerns or fears. The concerns are all on my part. So, for those of you
            > riding with youngsters seated on the deck (or otherwise not strapped in).
            >
            >
            >
            > Do you keep solely to paths and smaller neighborhood streets?
            >
            > Do you ride much slower?
            >
            > How do you deal with sleepy kids on the back?
            >
            > How often, if ever, do you need to worry about their distractibility
            > creating a dangerous situation?
            >
            >
            >
            > Any input would be great!
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Liz
            >
          • michael kestner
            In my case, I don t think I can rely on their attention to safety because that could force them (even considering only my older kid) to ride less joyfully and
            Message 5 of 30 , May 8 4:18 AM
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              "In my case, I don't think I can rely on their attention to safety because that could force them (even considering only my older kid) to ride less joyfully and more seriously, and that I think destroys one ofthe very reason for using bikes."

              Awesome, my son on the back is one of the major reasons I bought a longtail. I don't want him losing the fun of it by heaping responsibility on him before he's ready.
               
              MIke
               

              --- On Sat, 5/8/10, fred <fredcostapinto@...> wrote:

              From: fred <fredcostapinto@...>
              Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one
              To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 6:13 AM

               
              Hi,
              I ride daily with two kids (4 and 2yo) on a double seat replacing the snapdeck. I don't feel comfortable riding with them without the seatbelts at all. Majo reasons are:
              1) they sleep every single time we ride at some point;
              2) they like to sing, dance, point at dogs, people, other bikes etc., so I don't believe they will hold the handlebars securely enough to support themselves because they are distracted and playing games.
              3) Sometimes I ride fast because I take them to swimming lessons, physician appointment and all other places; well, fast is relative but at 35 km/h (>20mph?) I wouldn't really even like to consider a kid flying off the deck if I pull the brakes.
              So, as someone posted, every kid is different and have particular habits. Moreover, riding styles is also different between riders and also in different situations (communting versus recreational) .
              In my case, I don't think I can rely on their attention to safety because that could force them (even considering only my older kid) to ride less joyfully and more seriously, and that I think destroys one ofthe very reason for using bikes. In addition to that I don't want to give up the possibility of riding a bit faster with them whenever I need (being late for a class of something), and also I don't want to worry about them sleeping when riding with me (which happens every single say with me - figure kids after swimming and eating like hungry hobbits then seating on confortable bike seats to ride home :-)
              If you decide you're ready for it, please let us know how it goes!
              Take care,
              Fred

              --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, "Liz W. Durham" <lizwdurham@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Ok, I have been riding with my son in a strapped in seat mounted on the
              > snapdeck and am about ready to progress to him just riding directly on the
              > deck with a handlebar for holding on. He will be 4 in August and is really
              > outgrowing his current seat set up. My question is not about getting him
              > physically set up for his new way of riding, it is more about safety and
              > general riding concerns.
              >
              >
              >
              > I let him ride on the deck the other day just through the neighborhood. He
              > sat behind his seat and held on. He didn't seem to have any problems or
              > concerns or fears. The concerns are all on my part. So, for those of you
              > riding with youngsters seated on the deck (or otherwise not strapped in).
              >
              >
              >
              > Do you keep solely to paths and smaller neighborhood streets?
              >
              > Do you ride much slower?
              >
              > How do you deal with sleepy kids on the back?
              >
              > How often, if ever, do you need to worry about their distractibility
              > creating a dangerous situation?
              >
              >
              >
              > Any input would be great!
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Liz
              >

            • Bruce Alan Wilson
              Steam trains burned wood and/or coal and were very dirty--lots of soot and other particulate matter. Bruce Alan Wilson http://www.wvdemolay.org/
              Message 6 of 30 , May 8 4:50 AM
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                Steam trains burned wood and/or coal and were very dirty--lots of soot and other particulate matter. 
                 
                 
                 

                The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
              • David Chase
                ... What s interesting to me, is whether the new-ish containerized cargo makes this better or worse. It seems to me that, depending upon how cargo was packed
                Message 7 of 30 , May 8 7:01 AM
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                  On 2010-05-08, at 12:01 AM, Rich wrote:

                  > I agree but long distance trucking makes little economic or energy use sense, at least to me.
                  >
                  > An awful lot of what used to be secondary railroad track that served agricultural towns and factories has been ripped up and rail service to those locations abandoned. Now they HAVE to use truck transport.

                  What's interesting to me, is whether the new-ish containerized cargo makes this better or worse. It seems to me that, depending upon how cargo was packed (and we have computers to help the packing) this could make a hybrid system go faster -- long-haul by train, to within some number of miles of the destination (I am thinking, 50-150, depending on local density) and then whole containers are offloaded onto trucks. Or, whole containers are offloaded to delivery centers at the depots.

                  A rational delivery system does not necessarily change truck traffic where we like to ride, but it might reduce the amount of long-distance trucking.

                  David
                • Rich
                  By the end of the steam era all west coast locomotives were oil fired. The steam engine does have the advantage of, with proper design, being able to handle
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 8 3:03 PM
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                    By the end of the steam era all west coast locomotives were oil fired. The steam engine does have the advantage of, with proper design, being able to handle virtually any fuel but in locomotive sizes is very inefficient compared to current technology.

                    I am not saying we should return to steam engines, just that they put on a great show going by and I am old enough to remember the end of their era :-)

                    Rich Wood

                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Steam trains burned wood and/or coal and were very dirty--lots of soot and other particulate matter.
                    >
                    > Bruce Alan Wilson
                    > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                    > http://tinyurl.com/WVMSRideBAW
                    > http://brighterplanet.com/project_fund_projects/127
                    > http://pedalersparadise.wordpress.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                    >
                  • Mark Garvey
                    I am a fan of trains myself. for a variety of reasons. Mostly because they were...or COULD be...comfortable, convenient and efficient. NO, not the ONLY
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 9 5:23 AM
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                      I am a fan of trains myself.  for a variety of reasons.  Mostly because they were...or COULD be...comfortable, convenient and efficient.  NO, not the ONLY solution to transportation services, but ONE solution to growing problems.  Imagine riding to the local station, getting on a train, going to your room, and watching a movie, eating, walking to the restaurant car (they used to be nearly gourmet dining!  not the current rubber nuke food)  or sitting in the lounge car talking and having a drink as you travel across the country.  Go to bed when you like, no fighting traffic for 14-15 hours a day along unfamiliar highways. Much less risk of drunk drivers along your route.  I have only traveled by train a few times in my life.  But I enjoyed every experience!  I really hate traveling by car.  airplanes are uncomfortable and you might as well be in a cattle car for all the comfort you get.  All they hae is speed going for them.  at least you don't have to endure it for long.

                      Mark

                      On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Rich <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                      By the end of the steam era all west coast locomotives were oil fired.  The steam engine does have the advantage of, with proper design, being able to handle virtually any fuel but in locomotive sizes is very inefficient compared to current technology.

                      I am not saying we should return to steam engines, just that they put on a great show going by and I am old enough to remember the end of their era :-)

                      Rich Wood

                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Steam trains burned wood and/or coal and were very dirty--lots of soot and other particulate matter.
                      >
                      --
                      Family FUN!.....with a twist!

                      Papa Balloon
                    • Cara Lin Bridgman
                      There already is a certain amount of that (i.e. all the trains I ve seen going through Knoxville Tennessee carrying two layers of containers), but there could
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 9 10:42 PM
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                        There already is a certain amount of that (i.e. all the trains I've seen
                        going through Knoxville Tennessee carrying two layers of containers),
                        but there could be more: more trains carrying more containers!

                        CL
                        who admits that one of the reasons she loves living in Taiwan is the
                        trains (diesel, electric, and high-speed) and the fact she can get to
                        the stations by bicycle (and there's bicycle parking once there).

                        David Chase wrote:
                        > What's interesting to me, is whether the new-ish containerized cargo makes this better or worse. It seems to me that, depending upon how cargo was packed (and we have computers to help the packing) this could make a hybrid system go faster -- long-haul by train, to within some number of miles of the destination (I am thinking, 50-150, depending on local density) and then whole containers are offloaded onto trucks. Or, whole containers are offloaded to delivery centers at the depots.
                      • Mark Garvey
                        ... agree! There used to be rail nearly everywhere. Since horses were slow, there needed to be a rail depot within 10-20 miles of every major destination.
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 9 11:49 PM
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                          On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman <shokulan@...> wrote:


                          David Chase wrote:
                          > What's interesting to me, is whether the new-ish containerized cargo makes this better or worse.  It seems to me that, depending upon how cargo was packed (and we have computers to help the packing) this could make a hybrid system go faster -- long-haul by train, to within some number of miles of the destination (I am thinking, 50-150, depending on local density) and then whole containers are offloaded onto trucks.  Or, whole containers are offloaded to delivery centers at the depots.


                          While this may seem suicidal, since I make my living as a truck driver, I agree!  There used to be rail nearly everywhere.  Since horses were slow, there needed to be a rail depot within 10-20 miles of every major destination.  And today trucks should never need to go farther than 200-300 miles one way to make a delivery or pick up.  It is inefficient to have 100 trucks traveling the same 800-2000 mile trip as a train could do in ONE trip.  That means that drivers could be at home more (yay)....(hmmm, or booo, depending on your preference I suppose) and there would be less congestion on the highway (also yay) and burn less fuel.  I see little downside.   YES, special items could, and SHOULD be transported by truck.  You can not get a wind turbine blade on a train for instance.  Or the housing.  I am not particularly "environmental" in my thinking, but Trains work better in a lot of ways.  Inconvenient?   Maybe.  sometimes.  But the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

                          Mark


                          --
                          Family FUN!.....with a twist!

                          Papa Balloon
                        • Catherine
                          Hi there, My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether to
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 10 1:05 AM
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                            Hi there,

                            My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my
                            mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether
                            to purchase the peapod as I'm not sure about his attention to safety
                            all the time. He will only need it for about a year, I am guessing. I
                            do think he will want to sit on the snap deck like his brother, though.
                            Anyone else with older siblings choose to put their younger ones
                            straight onto the snapdeck or is it advised to go with a peapod?

                            Catherine
                          • Miguel Barroso
                            I have 2 kids - one almost 3yr and the other 4 and a half. They both ride on the snapdeck with no problem whatsoever - we tend to underestimate a childs
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 10 3:20 AM
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                              I have 2 kids - one almost 3yr and the other 4 and a half.
                               
                              They both ride on the snapdeck with no problem whatsoever - we tend to underestimate a childs ability to recognize danger. Don't get me wrong, my two kids are really active ones, and they misbehave alot (as they all do). They used to ride in child seats, and since they were straped in there, they were always moving around, shaking the bicycle. The first day I sat them in the snapdeck, with only a stokerbar for the youngest one, and a strap in the middle of the snapdeck for the elder one to grab onto, they imediately behaved much better.
                               
                              My wife wasn't very fond of this, specially because of the youngest (he was only 2 and a half years old), so I've assembled a setup I saw in Flickr - here is mine:
                               
                               
                              In this way, they still behave quite well, and at the same time, are relatively safe. (it's also much more versatile, since I don't have to carry the two seats around, and the bike is always ready to carry them)
                               
                              Cheers,
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Catherine
                              Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:05 AM
                              Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one

                              Hi there,

                              My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my
                              mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether
                              to  purchase the peapod as I'm not sure about his attention to safety
                              all the time. He will only need it for about a year, I am guessing.  I
                              do think he will want to sit on the snap deck like his brother, though.
                              Anyone else with older siblings choose to put their younger ones
                              straight onto the snapdeck or is it advised to go with a peapod?

                              Catherine


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                            • Elaine Nelson
                              Those interested in trains should check out Waiting on a Train - http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6478625-waiting-on-a-train - fascinating info & stories
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 10 9:05 AM
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                                Those interested in trains should check out "Waiting on a Train" -
                                http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6478625-waiting-on-a-train -
                                fascinating info & stories about the state of passenger rail (with
                                some info about freight). Oddly enough, tho I read the book back in
                                January, I saw the author speak just last week. (And bought a copy for
                                my Mom as a mother's day gift. She came to visit us by train a couple
                                of years ago: she was still recovering from a nasty fall and couldn't
                                drive or fly. She had a great time.)

                                Interesting factoid from that book in re:cycling: in many cases
                                ownership and use rights of Rail-to-Trail trails remains with the
                                freight railroads that once used them, or to the companies that bought
                                them up. In theory, a company could simply decide to rebuild and start
                                running trains in those places without even needing permits or
                                hearings! But it also seems like that is VERY unlikely to happen.

                                (BTW: I was just appointed to our local Bicycle & Pedestrian Advisory
                                Committee. My first meeting is later this month! I talked quite a bit
                                about transportational cycling in the application/interview.)

                                Elaine Nelson
                                http://elainenelson.org/
                              • Diane
                                Liz, I guess I m kind of lucky when it comes to riding in DC traffic w/ my boys. We live east of the downtown center, on the far upper right edge of Capitol
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 10 12:06 PM
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                                  Liz,

                                  I guess I'm kind of lucky when it comes to riding in DC traffic w/ my boys. We live east of the downtown center, on the far upper right edge of Capitol Hill. Here, there are a number of bike lanes cutting all across the areas we frequent. Getting buzzed by cars really isn't that much of a concern when I'm carrying my kids. Other times when I'm alone, I'm more likely to be frequenting more heavily-traveled roads where cars can get close.

                                  If it ever happens when I'm carrying my boys, they're sure to notice because I've usually directed a particularly loud response to the driver of the car.

                                  I will note that most of the time when my kids are on the bike, drivers give us a wider berth. Since my passengers ride on the back, they're the first things drivers notice. Most of the time, we're such a novelty that they slow down for a closer look.

                                  I'm glad that you'll look for the foot pegs. My have really gotten a lot of use!

                                  Scott

                                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Liz W. Durham" <lizwdurham@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Scott-
                                  >
                                  > You're specific instructions for your youngest sound like how I got my son
                                  > to keep his helmet on and not mess with it when I started riding with him.
                                  > He was not quite a year old at the time. So thanks for offering that up.it
                                  > is a great reminder of how I can go about training him to ride without the
                                  > kid seat. And I appreciate your point about sitting on a slippery surface;
                                  > little ones can slide wiggle around enough on their own without the added
                                  > worry of too smooth of a surface for their backsides. And I will look into
                                  > the fork standers. I had been wondering about a good foot peg solution.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I think I can trust my son to follow basic rules. He has been riding with me
                                  > for as long as he can remember. He has been asking to ride without his kid
                                  > seat for a few months now and I have been putting it off by saying he needs
                                  > to be a bit older and ready to follow new rules. He knows that "wiggling"
                                  > around too much is not allowed. But holding on to stoker bars will be a new
                                  > thing. I believe he is ready.this is more about ME being ready.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You ride in the D.C. area.how do you fare when riding with your children and
                                  > there is a bit of traffic? Do your children notice/are they bothered by cars
                                  > that drive by a bit close?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com]
                                  > On Behalf Of Diane
                                  > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 8:52 AM
                                  > To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the
                                  > little one
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Liz,
                                  >
                                  > I'm sort of in your same situation, but with my second son. Normally, I
                                  > carry both kids using my one-off double seat snapdeck replacement. I've
                                  > installed regular seat belts from the auto store, so I've got a lot of
                                  > confidence that they'll stay put. If I've only got one of them, I use either
                                  > the belted replacement seat or the standard snapdeck. (Note that I have a
                                  > Magic Carpet covering the regular snapdeck--it's non-slippery surface really
                                  > helps to keep things in place down during riding.) My first (age 5) has made
                                  > a good transition to the Magic Carpet, but I don't have the same confidence
                                  > in his 3 year old younger brother.
                                  >
                                  > On the rare occasion I've ridden the younger one around on the Magic Carpet,
                                  > I give him very specific instructions. First and foremost, I ask him to keep
                                  > his hands on the stoker bars. If he takes them off, even for just a minute,
                                  > we stop and repeat the rules. The second rule is to keep his weight in the
                                  > center. It's really easy to feel when he's shifted his weight and it's most
                                  > often when he's looking down to one side or the other. Again, stopping and
                                  > repeating the rules keeps him in line. The final rule I ask him to keep is
                                  > to squeeze his knees together to help hold him down. This is akin to what
                                  > you do on horseback.
                                  >
                                  > I have one last suggestion to pass on that I learned from a fellow Roots
                                  > Radical: Odyssey Fork Standers. These are old-school fork pegs intended to
                                  > attach to each arm of the front fork of a BMX bike for tricks. I was able to
                                  > find a couple on eBay for about $30. They are attached to my V-racks just
                                  > above the Whatchamacollars and give young riders an excellent place to put
                                  > their feet. They even fold up against the v-rack tubing when not in use.
                                  > I'll note that I needed to build up a substantial shim (something like 15
                                  > layers of cut-up aluminum cans on each side), but they're tight. Like a
                                  > custom seat, you only need it a few seasons. My five year old's legs are too
                                  > long to make any use of the pegs, but he's tall for his age.
                                  >
                                  > Best of luck with the training.
                                  >
                                  > Scott
                                  > Washington, DC
                                  >
                                  > --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:rootsradicals%40yahoogroups.com> , "Liz W. Durham" <lizwdurham@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Ok, I have been riding with my son in a strapped in seat mounted on the
                                  > > snapdeck and am about ready to progress to him just riding directly on the
                                  > > deck with a handlebar for holding on. He will be 4 in August and is really
                                  > > outgrowing his current seat set up. My question is not about getting him
                                  > > physically set up for his new way of riding, it is more about safety and
                                  > > general riding concerns.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I let him ride on the deck the other day just through the neighborhood. He
                                  > > sat behind his seat and held on. He didn't seem to have any problems or
                                  > > concerns or fears. The concerns are all on my part. So, for those of you
                                  > > riding with youngsters seated on the deck (or otherwise not strapped in).
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Do you keep solely to paths and smaller neighborhood streets?
                                  > >
                                  > > Do you ride much slower?
                                  > >
                                  > > How do you deal with sleepy kids on the back?
                                  > >
                                  > > How often, if ever, do you need to worry about their distractibility
                                  > > creating a dangerous situation?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Any input would be great!
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks,
                                  > >
                                  > > Liz
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Diane
                                  My youngest is 3. When I m forced to use the regular snapdeck (instead of their seat-belted, custom-made double seat), I make sure to put the younger kid in
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 10 12:38 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    My youngest is 3. When I'm forced to use the regular snapdeck (instead of their seat-belted, custom-made double seat), I make sure to put the younger kid in the front and the older kid (5 yrs old) behind him. The far-back kid has specific instructions: keep two hands around your younger brother's waist, and make sure to grip your knees together. The younger kid has specific instructions to keep both hands on the stoker bar and to keep still. I tend to ride a little slower when they're not in seat belts.

                                    To be honest, I don't think you'll get your money's worth out of the Peapod if it's only going to hold a 4 year old. You'd be better off buying a couple of clamshell folding camp chairs and screwing them down to the snapdeck, or simply go without and establish very specific ground rules when riding with your children.

                                    I've heard some stories of children falling off their kids snapdecks, but these kids were older than ours and they were purported to be horsing around at the time. I also heard that they suffered little injury and really learned a valuable object lesson.

                                    Scott

                                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Catherine <catshort@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi there,
                                    >
                                    > My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my
                                    > mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether
                                    > to purchase the peapod as I'm not sure about his attention to safety
                                    > all the time. He will only need it for about a year, I am guessing. I
                                    > do think he will want to sit on the snap deck like his brother, though.
                                    > Anyone else with older siblings choose to put their younger ones
                                    > straight onto the snapdeck or is it advised to go with a peapod?
                                    >
                                    > Catherine
                                    >
                                  • Catherine
                                    This is great! Was it hard to make? I think I will try the stoker bar and if I am concerned I will try something like this. Thanks for your ideas. Catherine
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 11 1:45 AM
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                                      This is great! Was it hard to make? I think I will try the stoker bar
                                      and if I am concerned I will try something like this.

                                      Thanks for your ideas.

                                      Catherine
                                    • Catherine
                                      Thanks Scott, You are probably right. It is just me worrying. Louis is a very coordinated and sure footed young man. I think he will rise to the challenge. If
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 11 2:25 AM
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                                        Thanks Scott,

                                        You are probably right. It is just me worrying. Louis is a very
                                        coordinated and sure footed young man. I think he will rise to the
                                        challenge. If I am still not sure after a good try I might make
                                        something like Miguel has. I think having Oliver behind him will help,
                                        too. I am looking forward to getting my radish :0)

                                        Catherine
                                      • gcisler
                                        Miguel, that setup looks like a much easier version of what i wanted to do! I m not sure if there s an explanation in that Spanish language forum you sent us,
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 11 4:53 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Miguel,

                                          that setup looks like a much easier version of what i wanted to do! I'm not sure if there's an explanation in that Spanish language forum you sent us, but could you elaborate on how you connected the bent conduit to a) the handlebars and b) the very back of the bike/freeradical?

                                          thanks again for the link, and I hope to get something like this setup this weekend!

                                          geoff
                                          jamaica plain, MA

                                          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Miguel Barroso" <miguelbarroso@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I have 2 kids - one almost 3yr and the other 4 and a half.
                                          >
                                          > They both ride on the snapdeck with no problem whatsoever - we tend to underestimate a childs ability to recognize danger. Don't get me wrong, my two kids are really active ones, and they misbehave alot (as they all do). They used to ride in child seats, and since they were straped in there, they were always moving around, shaking the bicycle. The first day I sat them in the snapdeck, with only a stokerbar for the youngest one, and a strap in the middle of the snapdeck for the elder one to grab onto, they imediately behaved much better.
                                          >
                                          > My wife wasn't very fond of this, specially because of the youngest (he was only 2 and a half years old), so I've assembled a setup I saw in Flickr - here is mine:
                                          >
                                          > http://ciclo-via.org/forum/34-material/1675-gt-tequesta-x?limit=15&start=30#2532
                                          >
                                          > In this way, they still behave quite well, and at the same time, are relatively safe. (it's also much more versatile, since I don't have to carry the two seats around, and the bike is always ready to carry them)
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Miguel Barroso
                                          >
                                          > www.tambstudio.com
                                          > +351919202820
                                          > +351210962981
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Catherine
                                          > To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:05 AM
                                          > Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi there,
                                          >
                                          > My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my
                                          > mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether
                                          > to purchase the peapod as I'm not sure about his attention to safety
                                          > all the time. He will only need it for about a year, I am guessing. I
                                          > do think he will want to sit on the snap deck like his brother, though.
                                          > Anyone else with older siblings choose to put their younger ones
                                          > straight onto the snapdeck or is it advised to go with a peapod?
                                          >
                                          > Catherine
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots radical.
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                        • Miguel Barroso
                                          Yup, it s Portuguese! The bent tubing was attached to the stoker bar with a threaded rod, and two bolts from a pair of quick release wheel skewers. In order to
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 11 6:51 AM
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                                            Yup, it's Portuguese!
                                             
                                            The bent tubing was attached to the stoker bar with a threaded rod, and two bolts from a pair of quick release wheel skewers.
                                            In order to avoid the tubing getting squashed, i've inserted a cilindrical wood bit inside it. Did the same inside the stoker bar, to keep the threaded rod centered.
                                             
                                            The rear clamps are those ones (although for now, only one is - the other one is this: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8274 - I had both lying around - i've ordered one more, so that I can have them both the same)
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: gcisler
                                            Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:32 PM
                                            Subject: Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one

                                            Miguel,

                                            my bad, I just looked a little closer and saw that it was portuguese!

                                            Also, here are the rear clamps:
                                            http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.31871

                                            But what did you use for the front clamps?

                                            cheers,
                                            Geoff

                                            --- In , "Miguel Barroso" <miguelbarroso@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I have 2 kids - one almost 3yr and the other 4 and a half.
                                            >
                                            > They both ride on the snapdeck with no problem whatsoever - we tend to underestimate a childs ability to recognize danger. Don't get me wrong, my two kids are really active ones, and they misbehave alot (as they all do). They used to ride in child seats, and since they were straped in there, they were always moving around, shaking the bicycle. The first day I sat them in the snapdeck, with only a stokerbar for the youngest one, and a strap in the middle of the snapdeck for the elder one to grab onto, they imediately behaved much better.
                                            >
                                            > My wife wasn't very fond of this, specially because of the youngest (he was only 2 and a half years old), so I've assembled a setup I saw in Flickr - here is mine:
                                            >
                                            > http://ciclo-via.org/forum/34-material/1675-gt-tequesta-x?limit=15&start=30#2532
                                            >
                                            > In this way, they still behave quite well, and at the same time, are relatively safe. (it's also much more versatile, since I don't have to carry the two seats around, and the bike is always ready to carry them)
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            > Miguel Barroso
                                            >
                                            > www.tambstudio.com
                                            > +351919202820
                                            > +351210962981
                                            >
                                            >   ----- Original Message -----
                                            >   From: Catherine
                                            >   To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                            >   Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:05 AM
                                            >   Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >   Hi there,
                                            >
                                            >   My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my
                                            >   mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether
                                            >   to  purchase the peapod as I'm not sure about his attention to safety
                                            >   all the time. He will only need it for about a year, I am guessing.  I
                                            >   do think he will want to sit on the snap deck like his brother, though.
                                            >   Anyone else with older siblings choose to put their younger ones
                                            >   straight onto the snapdeck or is it advised to go with a peapod?
                                            >
                                            >   Catherine
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >   ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            >   You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots radical.
                                            >
                                            >   To Post a message, send it to:   rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >   ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >


                                          • Miguel Barroso
                                            By the way, let me give proper credits to the project that inspired mine: http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyhoppyfamily/2239299645 Cheers, Miguel Barroso
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 11 7:02 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              By the way, let me give proper credits to the project that inspired mine: http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyhoppyfamily/2239299645
                                               
                                              Cheers,
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:51 PM
                                              Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one

                                              Yup, it's Portuguese!
                                               
                                              The bent tubing was attached to the stoker bar with a threaded rod, and two bolts from a pair of quick release wheel skewers.
                                              In order to avoid the tubing getting squashed, i've inserted a cilindrical wood bit inside it. Did the same inside the stoker bar, to keep the threaded rod centered.
                                               
                                              The rear clamps are those ones (although for now, only one is - the other one is this: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8274 - I had both lying around - i've ordered one more, so that I can have them both the same)
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: gcisler
                                              Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:32 PM
                                              Subject: Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one

                                              Miguel,

                                              my bad, I just looked a little closer and saw that it was portuguese!

                                              Also, here are the rear clamps:
                                              http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.31871

                                              But what did you use for the front clamps?

                                              cheers,
                                              Geoff

                                              --- In , "Miguel Barroso" <miguelbarroso@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I have 2 kids - one almost 3yr and the other 4 and a half.
                                              >
                                              > They both ride on the snapdeck with no problem whatsoever - we tend to underestimate a childs ability to recognize danger. Don't get me wrong, my two kids are really active ones, and they misbehave alot (as they all do). They used to ride in child seats, and since they were straped in there, they were always moving around, shaking the bicycle. The first day I sat them in the snapdeck, with only a stokerbar for the youngest one, and a strap in the middle of the snapdeck for the elder one to grab onto, they imediately behaved much better.
                                              >
                                              > My wife wasn't very fond of this, specially because of the youngest (he was only 2 and a half years old), so I've assembled a setup I saw in Flickr - here is mine:
                                              >
                                              > http://ciclo-via.org/forum/34-material/1675-gt-tequesta-x?limit=15&start=30#2532
                                              >
                                              > In this way, they still behave quite well, and at the same time, are relatively safe. (it's also much more versatile, since I don't have to carry the two seats around, and the bike is always ready to carry them)
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              > Miguel Barroso
                                              >
                                              > www.tambstudio.com
                                              > +351919202820
                                              > +351210962981
                                              >
                                              >   ----- Original Message -----
                                              >   From: Catherine
                                              >   To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                              >   Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:05 AM
                                              >   Subject: [rootsradicals] Re: moving toward a non-strapped seat for the little one
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >   Hi there,
                                              >
                                              >   My youngest is nearly 4 (July) and is currently in a bike seat on my
                                              >   mountain bike. We are about to buy a Radish and are wondering whether
                                              >   to  purchase the peapod as I'm not sure about his attention to safety
                                              >   all the time. He will only need it for about a year, I am guessing.  I
                                              >   do think he will want to sit on the snap deck like his brother, though.
                                              >   Anyone else with older siblings choose to put their younger ones
                                              >   straight onto the snapdeck or is it advised to go with a peapod?
                                              >
                                              >   Catherine
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >   ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              >   You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots radical.
                                              >
                                              >   To Post a message, send it to:   rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >   ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >


                                            • lectroid94521
                                              Yeah, that all around bar that the happyhoppy s and Miguel are using looks great. When I ride I can almost guarantee my 5 year old and 2.5 year old will nap
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 11 7:55 AM
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                                                Yeah, that "all around" bar that the happyhoppy's and Miguel are using looks great.

                                                When I ride I can almost guarantee my 5 year old and 2.5 year old will nap if it is for any distance greater than 20 minutes, so I'm putting seats together.

                                                I did some shorter test riding with my 2.5 year old and he did start nodding off while on the snapdeck by himself, so seats it is.

                                                --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Miguel Barroso" <miguelbarroso@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > By the way, let me give proper credits to the project that inspired mine: http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyhoppyfamily/2239299645
                                                >
                                              • Travers, Neil
                                                ... nodding off while on the snapdeck by himself BTW - how do you notice your kids are nodding off. I find it very difficult to see my rack area. Or do they
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 12 5:47 AM
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                                                  > I did some shorter test riding with my 2.5 year old and he did start
                                                  nodding off while on the snapdeck by himself

                                                  BTW - how do you notice your kids are nodding off. I find it very
                                                  difficult to see my rack area. Or do they bump into your back or
                                                  something?
                                                • Liz W. Durham
                                                  ... difficult to see my rack area. Or do they bump into your back or something? I notice my son is falling asleep because it gets quiet. All other times he is
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 12 6:59 AM
                                                  • 0 Attachment

                                                    > BTW - how do you notice your kids are

                                                    nodding off. I find it very
                                                    difficult to see my rack area. Or do they bump into your back or
                                                    something?

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    I notice my son is falling asleep because it gets quiet. All other times he is talking away to me. So when it seems to be quiet back there I just raise my voice a bit and ask him if he is awake. My son rarely sleeps on the bike, even on long rides, but when he does sleep he is out big time.

                                                     

                                                  • lectroid94521
                                                    I was paying really close attention and talking to him throughout because I knew the risk and likelihood. So if he actually fell off the deck, well, I would
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 14 12:56 AM
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                                                      I was paying really close attention and talking to him throughout because I knew the risk and likelihood. So if he actually fell off the deck, well, I would be very unhappy! When he stopped talking or got really quiet I could also feel him wobbling around a bit so I stopped.



                                                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Travers, Neil" <Neil.Travers@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > I did some shorter test riding with my 2.5 year old and he did start
                                                      > nodding off while on the snapdeck by himself
                                                      >
                                                      > BTW - how do you notice your kids are nodding off. I find it very
                                                      > difficult to see my rack area. Or do they bump into your back or
                                                      > something?
                                                      >
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