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Is carrying someone on your bike illegal?

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  • speedub_nate
    This interesting link landed in my mailbox: http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/ My first reaction is that I m
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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      This interesting link landed in my mailbox:

      http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/

      My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some pretty petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks causing the police to look for an excuse to cite.

      My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have to determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be detained for further inspection?

      (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument, because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like that guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having trouble coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be appreciated.)

      I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous thread: seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to the structural integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption only has a baby seat -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how Portland PD would feel about that.
    • Travers, Neil
      I think it was an off duty Fireman (not policeman) and a single parent not a tandem. I think it is this
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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        I think it was an off duty Fireman (not policeman) and a single parent
        not a tandem.

        I think it is this
        http://boingboing.net/2009/07/27/firefighter-allegedl.html



        -----Original Message-----
        From: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of speedub_nate
        Sent: 27 April 2010 13:23
        To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [rootsradicals] Is carrying someone on your bike illegal?


        This interesting link landed in my mailbox:

        http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-ille
        gal/

        My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody
        for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some
        pretty petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks
        causing the police to look for an excuse to cite.

        My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine
        whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have
        to determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be
        detained for further inspection?

        (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on
        a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument,
        because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like
        that guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having
        trouble coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be
        appreciated.)

        I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous
        thread: seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to
        the structural integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption
        only has a baby seat -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how
        Portland PD would feel about that.



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      • speedub_nate
        Yep yep, that s it! (Sorry, cops!)
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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          Yep yep, that's it! (Sorry, cops!)

          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Travers, Neil" <Neil.Travers@...> wrote:
          >
          > I think it was an off duty Fireman (not policeman) and a single parent
          > not a tandem.
          >
          > I think it is this
          > http://boingboing.net/2009/07/27/firefighter-allegedl.html
        • Abigail vR
          I have a friend who rides a Kona Ute (and is on this list, I hope you don t mind me speaking up, Anabel!) with her two girls on the back. She has one in a
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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            I have a friend who rides a Kona Ute (and is on this list, I hope you don't mind me speaking up, Anabel!) with her two girls on the back. She has one in a seat and one on the deck. She was pulled over and threatened -- but not ticekted -- by the Mountain View police for having two kids on the back of her bike. Our local circle of longtail moms (two Utes and two Xtracycles - all of which have two kids, one in a childseat and one on the deck) did some research and we determined that the law in California is that there has to be "a seat" for each person on the bike.

            After that incident I added a cushion to the deck of my Townie-X to make it look more "seat-like", I already had footsies. I had plans to add a handlebar but didn't get around to it and now my older doesn't want to sit on the deck anymore. My plan is to install a stoker bar for my current rider when he's ready to move up to the deck.

            Mountain View is a fairly small city (75k people) and my friend went as far as discussing the incident with someone at the police so hopefully they received a bit of education and maybe it won't happen again. I still got nervous when I had to ride past the police station with my older son on the deck, though, which we did every day last year to get him to school.

            Abigail

            On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:22 AM, speedub_nate wrote:

            > This interesting link landed in my mailbox:
            >
            > http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/
            >
            > My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some pretty petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks causing the police to look for an excuse to cite.
            >
            > My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have to determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be detained for further inspection?
            >
            > (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument, because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like that guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having trouble coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be appreciated.)
            >
            > I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous thread: seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to the structural integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption only has a baby seat -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how Portland PD would feel about that.
            >
            >
          • Anabel
            I m glad you shared, Abigail! I think one of the things that was scary about the incident, though, was that the officer threatened to call Child Protective
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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              I'm glad you shared, Abigail!

              I think one of the things that was scary about the incident, though, was that the officer threatened to call Child Protective Services in front of my 5 year old.  When I asked to see the law in question, he escalated the volume and began repeating himself.  I didn't feel like he had grounds to stand on (especially about the CPS thing) but it didn't seem like a good idea to argue with him on the spot.

              I did have long conversations with the public liaison officer after the incident, both about the behavior of the officer and about longtail bikes in general.  The MV police want a clear, delineated "seat" for each person.  The Ute's construction and bags prevent us from adding comfortable footpegs.  We're planning on adding handlebars to fit under my younger dd's seat, but that hasn't happened yet.  So we just don't ride with my older dd on the bike in MV (we live in the town next door and they don't seem nearly so picky).

              I'll have to read that article more closely now...
              :)
              Anabel

              On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Abigail vR <abigailvr@...> wrote:
              I have a  friend who rides a Kona Ute (and is on this list, I hope you don't mind me speaking up, Anabel!) with her two girls on the back. She has one in a seat and one on the deck. She was pulled over and threatened --  but not ticekted -- by the Mountain View police for having two kids on the back of her bike. Our local circle of longtail moms (two Utes and two Xtracycles - all of which have two kids, one in a childseat and one on the deck) did some research and we determined that the law in California is that there has to be "a seat" for each person on the bike.

              After that incident I added a cushion to the deck of my Townie-X to make it look more "seat-like", I already had footsies. I had plans to add a handlebar but didn't get around to it and now my older doesn't want to sit on the deck anymore. My plan is to install a stoker bar for my current rider when he's ready to move up to the deck.

              Mountain View is a fairly small city (75k people) and my friend went as far as discussing the incident with someone at the police so hopefully they received a bit of education and maybe it won't happen again. I still got nervous when I had to ride past the police station with my older son on the deck, though, which we did every day last year to get him to school.

              Abigail

              On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:22 AM, speedub_nate wrote:

              > This interesting link landed in my mailbox:
              >
              > http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/
              >
              > My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some pretty petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks causing the police to look for an excuse to cite.
              >
              > My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have to determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be detained for further inspection?
              >
              > (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument, because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like that guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having trouble coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be appreciated.)
              >
              > I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous thread: seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to the structural integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption only has a baby seat -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how Portland PD would feel about that.
              >
              >



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            • Philip Diaz
              for my 4-year old who is at that in-between too big for a child seat but too small for no seat stage, i went to a sporting goods store and got a folding
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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                for my 4-year old who is at that in-between "too big for a child seat but too small for no seat" stage, i went to a sporting goods store and got a folding bleacher stadium seat, then strapped it to my deck (under the v-racks too) using 2 small ratchet straps. the seat was about $15, and the straps were about $12 for the pair.

                it gives me some peace of mind that she's not going to fall backwards if i accelerate while she's not paying attention, and makes it very apparent visually that it's a 2nd seat back there that she's on.



                On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Anabel <anabel.neri@...> wrote:
                 

                I'm glad you shared, Abigail!


                I think one of the things that was scary about the incident, though, was that the officer threatened to call Child Protective Services in front of my 5 year old.  When I asked to see the law in question, he escalated the volume and began repeating himself.  I didn't feel like he had grounds to stand on (especially about the CPS thing) but it didn't seem like a good idea to argue with him on the spot.

                I did have long conversations with the public liaison officer after the incident, both about the behavior of the officer and about longtail bikes in general.  The MV police want a clear, delineated "seat" for each person.  The Ute's construction and bags prevent us from adding comfortable footpegs.  We're planning on adding handlebars to fit under my younger dd's seat, but that hasn't happened yet.  So we just don't ride with my older dd on the bike in MV (we live in the town next door and they don't seem nearly so picky).

                I'll have to read that article more closely now...
                :)
                Anabel


                On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Abigail vR <abigailvr@...> wrote:
                I have a  friend who rides a Kona Ute (and is on this list, I hope you don't mind me speaking up, Anabel!) with her two girls on the back. She has one in a seat and one on the deck. She was pulled over and threatened --  but not ticekted -- by the Mountain View police for having two kids on the back of her bike. Our local circle of longtail moms (two Utes and two Xtracycles - all of which have two kids, one in a childseat and one on the deck) did some research and we determined that the law in California is that there has to be "a seat" for each person on the bike.

                After that incident I added a cushion to the deck of my Townie-X to make it look more "seat-like", I already had footsies. I had plans to add a handlebar but didn't get around to it and now my older doesn't want to sit on the deck anymore. My plan is to install a stoker bar for my current rider when he's ready to move up to the deck.

                Mountain View is a fairly small city (75k people) and my friend went as far as discussing the incident with someone at the police so hopefully they received a bit of education and maybe it won't happen again. I still got nervous when I had to ride past the police station with my older son on the deck, though, which we did every day last year to get him to school.

                Abigail

                On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:22 AM, speedub_nate wrote:

                > This interesting link landed in my mailbox:
                >
                > http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/
                >
                > My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some pretty petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks causing the police to look for an excuse to cite.
                >
                > My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have to determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be detained for further inspection?
                >
                > (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument, because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like that guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having trouble coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be appreciated.)
                >
                > I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous thread: seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to the structural integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption only has a baby seat -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how Portland PD would feel about that.
                >
                >



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              • Rich
                An article in the local paper in the last few days about the fact that the Feds have been trying to get a national database of child abusers. The problem is
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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                  An article in the local paper in the last few days about the fact that the Feds have been trying to get a national database of child abusers. The problem is that the state lists are so messed up that they cannot do it. Your name can go on an abusers list w/o a trial as it can be entered by CPS without even a hearing in many states apparently. A phone call by almost anyone to CPS alleging abuse can get you on the state list.

                  Based on a friend the national sex offender list has similar problems. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor in VA. No fine or jail time, just probation. He is on the national list and has not been able to get his name removed. VA has destroyed the original records too as for misdemeanors they ditch them after 7 years apparently. He hired a lawyer but the local judge does not want to appear to be "soft on sex offenders" so no action in 2 years or so.

                  Rich Wood

                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Anabel <anabel.neri@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm glad you shared, Abigail!
                  >
                  > I think one of the things that was scary about the incident, though, was
                  > that the officer threatened to call Child Protective Services in front of my
                  > 5 year old. When I asked to see the law in question, he escalated the
                  > volume and began repeating himself. I didn't feel like he had grounds to
                  > stand on (especially about the CPS thing) but it didn't seem like a good
                  > idea to argue with him on the spot.
                  >
                  > I did have long conversations with the public liaison officer after the
                  > incident, both about the behavior of the officer and about longtail bikes in
                  > general. The MV police want a clear, delineated "seat" for each person.
                  > The Ute's construction and bags prevent us from adding comfortable
                  > footpegs. We're planning on adding handlebars to fit under my younger dd's
                  > seat, but that hasn't happened yet. So we just don't ride with my older dd
                  > on the bike in MV (we live in the town next door and they don't seem nearly
                  > so picky).
                  >
                  > I'll have to read that article more closely now...
                  > :)
                  > Anabel
                  >
                  > On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Abigail vR <abigailvr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have a friend who rides a Kona Ute (and is on this list, I hope you
                  > > don't mind me speaking up, Anabel!) with her two girls on the back. She has
                  > > one in a seat and one on the deck. She was pulled over and threatened --
                  > > but not ticekted -- by the Mountain View police for having two kids on the
                  > > back of her bike. Our local circle of longtail moms (two Utes and two
                  > > Xtracycles - all of which have two kids, one in a childseat and one on the
                  > > deck) did some research and we determined that the law in California is that
                  > > there has to be "a seat" for each person on the bike.
                  > >
                  > > After that incident I added a cushion to the deck of my Townie-X to make it
                  > > look more "seat-like", I already had footsies. I had plans to add a
                  > > handlebar but didn't get around to it and now my older doesn't want to sit
                  > > on the deck anymore. My plan is to install a stoker bar for my current rider
                  > > when he's ready to move up to the deck.
                  > >
                  > > Mountain View is a fairly small city (75k people) and my friend went as far
                  > > as discussing the incident with someone at the police so hopefully they
                  > > received a bit of education and maybe it won't happen again. I still got
                  > > nervous when I had to ride past the police station with my older son on the
                  > > deck, though, which we did every day last year to get him to school.
                  > >
                  > > Abigail
                  > >
                  > > On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:22 AM, speedub_nate wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > This interesting link landed in my mailbox:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/
                  > > >
                  > > > My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody
                  > > for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some pretty
                  > > petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks causing the
                  > > police to look for an excuse to cite.
                  > > >
                  > > > My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine
                  > > whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have to
                  > > determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be detained
                  > > for further inspection?
                  > > >
                  > > > (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on
                  > > a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument,
                  > > because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like that
                  > > guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having trouble
                  > > coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be
                  > > appreciated.)
                  > > >
                  > > > I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous thread:
                  > > seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to the structural
                  > > integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption only has a baby seat
                  > > -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how Portland PD would feel about
                  > > that.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots
                  > > radical.
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • joel
                  ... In .au you can not carry more people on the bike then it was designed for, so dinking on a normal bike is a no-no but passengers on a BD/X/k-ute/tandem are
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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                    On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 12:22 +0000, speedub_nate wrote:
                    >
                    > This interesting link landed in my mailbox:
                    >
                    > http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/


                    In .au you can not carry more people on the bike then it was designed
                    for, so dinking on a normal bike is a no-no but passengers on a
                    BD/X/k-ute/tandem are OK.

                    Cheers

                    Joel
                  • Abigail vR
                    One bit of irony (I find) is that I regularly see people in Mountain View with either kids or other adults sitting on the bar of their bikes, or standing on
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 27, 2010
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                      One bit of irony (I find) is that I regularly see people in Mountain View with either kids or other adults sitting on the bar of their bikes, or standing on pegs on the back wheel, with no helmets, of course. Your bike is clearly much more sturdy than either of those situations!

                      I still feel said for your big girl when I think about the police yelling about the CPS in front of her. I know that would scare my big guy too (he's 7 now).

                      Abigail

                      On Apr 27, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Anabel wrote:

                      > I'm glad you shared, Abigail!
                      >
                      >
                      > I think one of the things that was scary about the incident, though, was that the officer threatened to call Child Protective Services in front of my 5 year old. When I asked to see the law in question, he escalated the volume and began repeating himself. I didn't feel like he had grounds to stand on (especially about the CPS thing) but it didn't seem like a good idea to argue with him on the spot.
                      >
                      > I did have long conversations with the public liaison officer after the incident, both about the behavior of the officer and about longtail bikes in general. The MV police want a clear, delineated "seat" for each person. The Ute's construction and bags prevent us from adding comfortable footpegs. We're planning on adding handlebars to fit under my younger dd's seat, but that hasn't happened yet. So we just don't ride with my older dd on the bike in MV (we live in the town next door and they don't seem nearly so picky).
                      >
                      > I'll have to read that article more closely now...
                      > :)
                      > Anabel
                      >
                      > On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Abigail vR <abigailvr@...> wrote:
                      > I have a friend who rides a Kona Ute (and is on this list, I hope you don't mind me speaking up, Anabel!) with her two girls on the back. She has one in a seat and one on the deck. She was pulled over and threatened -- but not ticekted -- by the Mountain View police for having two kids on the back of her bike. Our local circle of longtail moms (two Utes and two Xtracycles - all of which have two kids, one in a childseat and one on the deck) did some research and we determined that the law in California is that there has to be "a seat" for each person on the bike.
                      >
                      > After that incident I added a cushion to the deck of my Townie-X to make it look more "seat-like", I already had footsies. I had plans to add a handlebar but didn't get around to it and now my older doesn't want to sit on the deck anymore. My plan is to install a stoker bar for my current rider when he's ready to move up to the deck.
                      >
                      > Mountain View is a fairly small city (75k people) and my friend went as far as discussing the incident with someone at the police so hopefully they received a bit of education and maybe it won't happen again. I still got nervous when I had to ride past the police station with my older son on the deck, though, which we did every day last year to get him to school.
                      >
                      > Abigail
                      >
                      > On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:22 AM, speedub_nate wrote:
                      >
                      > > This interesting link landed in my mailbox:
                      > >
                      > > http://bikeportland.org/2010/04/26/is-carrying-someone-on-your-bike-illegal/
                      > >
                      > > My first reaction is that I'm surprised the police are hassling somebody for this. Granted, only three occasions are cited, but that's some pretty petty stuff -- unless the cyclists involved were being dicks causing the police to look for an excuse to cite.
                      > >
                      > > My second reaction is, how can a cop be expected to reasonably determine whether a setup is unsafe on the spot, like a baseball ump? Does he have to determine it unsafe before detaining the rider? Or can a rider be detained for further inspection?
                      > >
                      > > (Remember the case of the off-duty officer who "pulled over" a couple on a tandem, then ended up shooting one of the cyclists after an argument, because he thought that riding with a baby was unsafe? How'd you like that guy to be the judge of the safety of your setup? BTW, I'm having trouble coming up with a reference for that story -- your help would be appreciated.)
                      > >
                      > > I seem to recall a list of passenger requirements from a previous thread: seat, handlebars, and foot pegs. This doesn't really speak to the structural integrity of the bike (or attachment). My contraption only has a baby seat -- no handlebars or foot pegs. I wonder how Portland PD would feel about that.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots radical.
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      > ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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