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Hub motor or stokemonkey?

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  • Morgan Scherer
    Hi Rootsrads, I m trying to decide what the next step in my car-free journey is. Right now, most of my transportation for myself and my two children is my big
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
      Hi Rootsrads,

      I'm trying to decide what the next step in my car-free journey is. Right now, most of my transportation for myself and my two children is my big dummy, in combination with their own bikes, and sometimes a tandem/trailer setup or the bus. However, there are a few places that we go regularly that bikes just don't work well for--too far and too many hills, especially given time constraints. One particular set of classes is also very hard to get to by bus. Hitherto, I have used a car for these regular events, feeling like I didn't have any other workable option. So, now I'm trying to figure out the best car-free option for these trips.

      What I've come to is an electric-assist cargo bike. I'm waffling between either putting a stokemonkey on my bd (which would then mean I would want another non-electric cargo bike for the rest of the time, probably an xtracycle on a rockhopper) OR getting a Madsen bike with a hub motor (I've been told a stokemonkey won't fit on a madsen).

      I'm leaning toward the Madsen for a variety of reasons, including that it's easier to keep the kids warm and dry in the bucket, they can face each other and play rather than one's helmet bonking into the other ones chin like happens now, and having an occasional adult third passenger would work. Also, it seems reasonable that if I'm going to have two cargo bikes, having very different ones makes sense, to capitalize on the different things they each do well.

      So the biggest question I have is: is there a hub motor out there that will perform as well as the stokemonkey for my application? My kids are old and big: 10 years (100 lbs), and 7 years (60 lbs). Including myself, I'm wanting to haul about 360 lbs for at least 15 miles though hilly terrain on one charge. I want to the motor to be able to help on the flats for those times I want to hurry (maybe going 15mph, when I would normally go 12), though in reality I've tended to mostly use electric assists in the past to increase my speed on hills (maybe 12 mph instead of 3). I want the motor I buy to last a long time, both mechanically and in its usefulness...after all, my kids will only get heavier, and no matter how proficient they get at biking themselves around town, I can't see not wanting to have a "car" sometimes.

      That was a lot of background to get to the main question: Is there a hub motor that will serve my needs, or is the stokemonkey (which I have heard incredibly glowing reports about) the only option?

      Thank you so much for your input!

      Morgan Scherer
      Seattle
      -----------------------
      Sent from my Treo(r) smartphone
    • David Dannenberg
      Maybe this takes you far afield, but there are some nice little gas motors that are made to mount to bikes. I suspect these provide a heck of lot more power
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
        Maybe this takes you far afield, but there are some nice little gas motors that are made to mount to bikes. I suspect these provide a heck of lot more power (yes, and noise) than the electrics yet are still hugely efficient--100-200 MPG. After all, all you need is a comparatively small boost. Worth considering maybe.

        Another crazy idea: get a front hub motor for your BD. When you are going where you need a boost, swap out the front wheel and drop on the battery. When you don't, use your current front wheel. Saves you having two bikes.

        On the other hand, more bikes is better, and your idea of different bikes for different purposes makes a lot of sense.

        You all know this question: how many bikes do you need?
        The answer: one more.


        David
      • S.J.C.J. Boldt
        We (too) are a hill residing, commuting through the cold/sometimes icy/snowy weather, toting 2-kid s(60 lbs and 35 lbs), mad, car-free family. we will be
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
          We (too) are a hill residing, commuting through the cold/sometimes
          icy/snowy weather, toting 2-kid s(60 lbs and 35 lbs), mad, car-free
          family. we will be getting a stokemonkey for my husband's X rig, and
          an ezee hub motor for mine, which has a tiny triangle in the back— too
          small to accommodate the stokemonkey motor. ezee is from cycle 9:
          http://www.cycle9.com/c9store/electric-bicycle-kits-c-5/ezee-complete-
          electric-motor-kitlithium-battery-p-49

          Good luck and happy riding!
        • Sean Moore
          I don t have (nor want) foot retention on my xtracycle so a stokemonkey is not an option. Just like a fixed gear bike I would not ride a driven pedal system
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
            I don't have (nor want) foot retention on my xtracycle so a
            stokemonkey is not an option. Just like a fixed gear bike I would not
            ride a driven pedal system without foot retention.

            I'm currently considering either a Crystalite or 9Continent front hub
            motor at 500w. If you feed these things 48v they will do almost 30mph
            in a 26in wheel. That's no longer a legal ebike but Colorado has 3
            year registrations for 50cc scooters, $5. No further licensing is
            required and those go 35mph. I'll have to ask the DMV about it. I
            think it'd be cool the next time some raging cager says, "You should
            have to REGISTER your bike to ride on the roads!" to reply, "Oh, I
            did." Scooter insurance is apparently less than $100 per year and is
            mandatory with the "50cc or less" scooter/moped registration.

            If one were to run a 36V pack I doubt if you would be above the
            federal ebike limit of 20mph on the motor only, at least with the
            heavier xtracycle.

            I think a DOT approved helmet would be mandatory for playing in
            traffic at 30mph. There are quite a few downhill MTB helmets that I
            noticed carried a DOT sticker on the back the last time I looked.

            Steel fork mandatory with the (usually supplied) torque arms to put
            500W in your bicycle fork. There are also rear hub kits that will
            accept a 7 speed freewheel. This would be much more "stealth", hidden
            behind the freeloaders. I'm going front hub because I have a Shimano
            internal hub and I've heard that some bikes get a little light on the
            front if you nail the throttle. This is without any cargo you might
            be carrying.

            --
            Sean Moore
            moore.sean@...



            On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, S.J.C.J. Boldt <ceciliaboldt@...> wrote:
            > We (too) are a hill residing, commuting through the cold/sometimes
            > icy/snowy weather, toting 2-kid s(60 lbs and 35 lbs), mad, car-free
            > family. we will be getting  a stokemonkey for my husband's X rig, and
            > an ezee hub motor for mine, which has a tiny triangle in the back— too
            > small to accommodate the stokemonkey motor. ezee is from cycle 9:
            > http://www.cycle9.com/c9store/electric-bicycle-kits-c-5/ezee-complete-
            > electric-motor-kitlithium-battery-p-49
            >
            > Good luck and happy riding!
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots radical.
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to:          rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Jeff Snavely
            I fail to see the correlation between a stokemonkey and a fixed gear bike. And I own both. ... I fail to see the correlation between a stokemonkey and a fixed
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
              I fail to see the correlation between a stokemonkey and a fixed gear bike. And I own both.





              On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Sean Moore <moore.sean@...> wrote:
              I don't have (nor want) foot retention on my xtracycle so a
              stokemonkey is not an option.  Just like a fixed gear bike I would not
              ride a driven pedal system without foot retention.

              I'm currently considering either a Crystalite or 9Continent front hub
              motor at 500w.  If you feed these things 48v they will do almost 30mph
              in a 26in wheel.  That's no longer a legal ebike but Colorado has 3
              year registrations for 50cc scooters, $5.  No further licensing is
              required and those go 35mph.  I'll have to ask the DMV about it.  I
              think it'd be cool the next time some raging cager says, "You should
              have to REGISTER your bike to ride on the roads!" to reply, "Oh, I
              did."  Scooter insurance is apparently less than $100 per year and is
              mandatory with the "50cc or less" scooter/moped registration.

              If one were to run a 36V pack I doubt if you would be above the
              federal ebike limit of 20mph on the motor only, at least with the
              heavier xtracycle.

              I think a DOT approved helmet would be mandatory for playing in
              traffic at 30mph.  There are quite a few downhill MTB helmets that I
              noticed carried a DOT sticker on the back the last time I looked.

              Steel fork mandatory with the (usually supplied) torque arms to put
              500W in your bicycle fork.  There are also rear hub kits that will
              accept a 7 speed freewheel.  This would be much more "stealth", hidden
              behind the freeloaders.  I'm going front hub because I have a Shimano
              internal hub and I've heard that some bikes get a little light on the
              front if you nail the throttle.  This is without any cargo you might
              be carrying.

              --
              Sean Moore
              moore.sean@...



              On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, S.J.C.J. Boldt <ceciliaboldt@...> wrote:
              > We (too) are a hill residing, commuting through the cold/sometimes
              > icy/snowy weather, toting 2-kid s(60 lbs and 35 lbs), mad, car-free
              > family. we will be getting  a stokemonkey for my husband's X rig, and
              > an ezee hub motor for mine, which has a tiny triangle in the back— too
              > small to accommodate the stokemonkey motor. ezee is from cycle 9:
              > http://www.cycle9.com/c9store/electric-bicycle-kits-c-5/ezee-complete-
              > electric-motor-kitlithium-battery-p-49
              >
              > Good luck and happy riding!
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots radical.
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to:          rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > ride to believe.Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ------------------------------------

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            • Andrew Kreps
              ... A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure you exert on them. A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Jeff Snavely <jsnavely@...> wrote:


                I fail to see the correlation between a stokemonkey and a fixed gear bike. And I own both.



                A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure you exert on them.

                A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure you exert on them.  

                 
              • todd
                ... This is true, but I find still after many years that many people suppose engaged means something binary, on or off, and possibly scary. It s more like
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:

                  > A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the
                  > pressure you exert on them.
                  >
                  > A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure
                  > you exert on them.

                  This is true, but I find still after many years that many people suppose "engaged" means something binary, on or off, and possibly scary. It's more like riding a tandem with a very strong, predictable, compliant stoker than riding a fixed gear.

                  It's a manual throttle, variable speed. I made a couple of little video clips recently:

                  - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4223286936/
                  - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4222517995/

                  I also removed the foot retention "requirement" from the product's warnings some months ago. I admit that my motivation in putting that in in the first place was partly to filter out potential customers who I feared might not be experienced enough bikers to use SM safely. Heck, maybe that warning was a secret appeal to hard-riding early-adopter types whose feedback I sought. After many years of riders of many skill levels and no injuries reported, well, I've relaxed.
                • Sean Moore
                  Interesting, I never bothered to look back at your product when I read that requirement. Cool videos. -- Sean Moore moore.sean@gmail.com
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                    Interesting, I never bothered to look back at your product when I read that requirement.

                    Cool videos.

                    --
                    Sean Moore
                    moore.sean@...


                    On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:18 PM, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                     

                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:

                    > A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the
                    > pressure you exert on them.
                    >
                    > A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure
                    > you exert on them.

                    This is true, but I find still after many years that many people suppose "engaged" means something binary, on or off, and possibly scary. It's more like riding a tandem with a very strong, predictable, compliant stoker than riding a fixed gear.

                    It's a manual throttle, variable speed. I made a couple of little video clips recently:

                    - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4223286936/
                    - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4222517995/

                    I also removed the foot retention "requirement" from the product's warnings some months ago. I admit that my motivation in putting that in in the first place was partly to filter out potential customers who I feared might not be experienced enough bikers to use SM safely. Heck, maybe that warning was a secret appeal to hard-riding early-adopter types whose feedback I sought. After many years of riders of many skill levels and no injuries reported, well, I've relaxed.


                  • Sean Moore
                    ok.... WANT! Awesome information on your site about the stokemonkey. I d buy a cyclone but the noise would drive me insane. In addition, who knows how they
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                      ok.... WANT!

                      Awesome information on your site about the stokemonkey.

                      I'd buy a cyclone but the noise would drive me insane.  In addition, who knows how they would do in weather.  Your motor seems to be a weather proven design.

                      --
                      Sean Moore
                      moore.sean@...


                      On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:18 PM, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                       

                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:

                      > A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the
                      > pressure you exert on them.
                      >
                      > A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure
                      > you exert on them.

                      This is true, but I find still after many years that many people suppose "engaged" means something binary, on or off, and possibly scary. It's more like riding a tandem with a very strong, predictable, compliant stoker than riding a fixed gear.

                      It's a manual throttle, variable speed. I made a couple of little video clips recently:

                      - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4223286936/
                      - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4222517995/

                      I also removed the foot retention "requirement" from the product's warnings some months ago. I admit that my motivation in putting that in in the first place was partly to filter out potential customers who I feared might not be experienced enough bikers to use SM safely. Heck, maybe that warning was a secret appeal to hard-riding early-adopter types whose feedback I sought. After many years of riders of many skill levels and no injuries reported, well, I've relaxed.


                    • Bruce Alan Wilson
                      While the Stokemonkey mounts won t fit anything but an Xtracycle or Big Dummy, it MIGHT be possible to adapt it to something else; it has been done. Todd
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                        While the Stokemonkey mounts won't fit anything but an Xtracycle or Big Dummy, it MIGHT be possible to adapt it to something else; it has been done.  Todd doesn't encourage it, but it has been done.  Does your local university have a School of Engineering?  If so, you might be able to find a bright Mechanical Engineering student who'd be willing to take up the challenge of adapting a Stokemonkey to a Madsen.  I talked to a ME I know about it, and he says that he thinks he could do it, but would have to study it a little more.
                         
                        Before you go to a hub gear, I'd look at Ecospeed: http://www.ecospeed.com/ or Cyclone http://www.cyclone-usa.com/; they are based on similar engineering principles to a Stokemonkey, but are adaptable to more types of bike.
                         
                         
                         

                        The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                      • Sean Moore
                        Alas, not to be. I just went and measured my bike. Stokemonkey won t fit on my ~19in Bianchi Milano. Chain clearance was close, room in the triangle isn t
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                          Alas, not to be.  I just went and measured my bike.  Stokemonkey won't fit on my ~19in Bianchi Milano.  Chain clearance was close, room in the triangle isn't in the ballpark.
                          --
                          Sean Moore
                          moore.sean@...


                          On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Sean Moore <moore.sean@...> wrote:
                          ok.... WANT!

                          Awesome information on your site about the stokemonkey.

                          I'd buy a cyclone but the noise would drive me insane.  In addition, who knows how they would do in weather.  Your motor seems to be a weather proven design.

                          --
                          Sean Moore
                          moore.sean@...


                          On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:18 PM, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                           

                          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:

                          > A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the
                          > pressure you exert on them.
                          >
                          > A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure
                          > you exert on them.

                          This is true, but I find still after many years that many people suppose "engaged" means something binary, on or off, and possibly scary. It's more like riding a tandem with a very strong, predictable, compliant stoker than riding a fixed gear.

                          It's a manual throttle, variable speed. I made a couple of little video clips recently:

                          - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4223286936/
                          - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/4222517995/

                          I also removed the foot retention "requirement" from the product's warnings some months ago. I admit that my motivation in putting that in in the first place was partly to filter out potential customers who I feared might not be experienced enough bikers to use SM safely. Heck, maybe that warning was a secret appeal to hard-riding early-adopter types whose feedback I sought. After many years of riders of many skill levels and no injuries reported, well, I've relaxed.



                        • sh8knj8kster
                          ... ~~~Thinking out loud here David... the 49cc 2t gas motor, has very little torque, especially in the bicycle type designed assist motors (frame mounts like
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 30, 2009
                            --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Maybe this takes you far afield, but there are some nice little gas motors that are made to mount to bikes. I suspect these provide a heck of lot more power (yes, and noise) than the electrics yet are still hugely efficient--100-200 MPG. After all, all you need is a comparatively small boost. Worth considering maybe.
                            >
                            > Another crazy idea: get a front hub motor for your BD. When you are going where you need a boost, swap out the front wheel and drop on the battery. When you don't, use your current front wheel. Saves you having two bikes.
                            >
                            > On the other hand, more bikes is better, and your idea of different bikes for different purposes makes a lot of sense.
                            >
                            > You all know this question: how many bikes do you need?
                            > The answer: one more.
                            >
                            >
                            > David
                            >





                            ~~~Thinking out loud here David... the 49cc 2t gas motor, has very little torque, especially in the bicycle type designed assist motors (frame mounts like the old whizzers)


                            having said that...there are aftermarket bicycle specific gas motors, some 4t that have larger displacment and more torque, so with some engineering (home brewing), could be adaptable to a cargo bike, if one were so inclined to use a gas motor on their bicycle


                            Comparing the gas motors for bicycles to the electric hub motors (and the Stoke Monkey), it appears from where I'm standing, the electric assist kits are more plug and play friendly





                            Jake
                            Reddick Fla.
                            Do not mess with the forces of Nature, for thou art small and biodegradable!"
                          • Morgan Scherer
                            Thank you for the thoughts about gas motors...it s always good to know more possibilities. However I am definitely interested in an electric motor,
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 1, 2010
                              Thank you for the thoughts about gas motors...it's always good to know more possibilities. However I am definitely interested in an electric motor, principally because they are quiet, less polluting, and can still use bike paths.

                              Any more thoughts on the relative merits of the stokemonkey versus a good cycle9 hub motor?

                              Morgan S.
                              -----------------------
                              Sent from my Treo(r) smartphone

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: "sh8knj8kster" <sh8knj8k@...>
                              Date: Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 10:35 pm
                              Subject: [rootsradicals] Re:Hub motor or stokemonkey?
                              To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.comReply-To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com







                              --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Maybe this takes you far afield, but there are some nice little gas motors that are made to mount to bikes. I suspect these provide a heck of lot more power (yes, and noise) than the electrics yet are still hugely efficient--100-200 MPG. After all, all you need is a comparatively small boost. Worth considering maybe.
                              >
                              > Another crazy idea: get a front hub motor for your BD. When you are going where you need a boost, swap out the front wheel and drop on the battery. When you don't, use your current front wheel. Saves you having two bikes.
                              >
                              > On the other hand, more bikes is better, and your idea of different bikes for different purposes makes a lot of sense.
                              >
                              > You all know this question: how many bikes do you need?
                              > The answer: one more.
                              >
                              >
                              > David
                              >

                              ~~~Thinking out loud here David... the 49cc 2t gas motor, has very little torque, especially in the bicycle type designed assist motors (frame mounts like the old whizzers)

                              having said that...there are aftermarket bicycle specific gas motors, some 4t that have larger displacment and more torque, so with some engineering (home brewing), could be adaptable to a cargo bike, if one were so inclined to use a gas motor on their bicycle

                              Comparing the gas motors for bicycles to the electric hub motors (and the Stoke Monkey), it appears from where I'm standing, the electric assist kits are more plug and play friendly

                              Jake
                              Reddick Fla.
                              Do not mess with the forces of Nature, for thou art small and biodegradable!'






                              Reply to sender | Reply to group Messages in this topic (11)

                              Recent Activity:
                            • Mark Garvey
                              O ... I am not opposed to gasoline motors..far from it. But something to consider here. I run an e-assist on my Xtracycle and for what I need, it is EXACTLY
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 1, 2010
                                O
                                > Maybe this takes you far afield, but there are some nice little gas motors that are made to mount to bikes. I suspect these provide a heck of lot more power (yes, and noise) than the electrics yet are still hugely efficient--100-200 MPG. After all,  all you need is a comparatively small boost. Worth considering maybe.

                                I am not opposed to gasoline motors..far from it.  But something to consider here.  I run an e-assist on my Xtracycle and for what I need, it is EXACTLY the right thing.  At the moment, I really need a new charger (Currie 24V) but that is beside the point.

                                If you want to Run gas..I would consider seriously picking up one of the small motorcycles or scooters that are readily available on both the new and used market.  I own and have owned, a 1985 Honda 125S since 1995. I paid something less than $300 for it.  It is entirely street legal, insurance is about $45 a year these days.  License is around $10 (Iowa) I can run it on ANY highway in the state and all back roads as well.  It can maintain 50-60 mph if that becomes Necessary.

                                There are NO fiddly bits to tweak.  I just get on, put the key in and kick start it.  all the engineering is figured out for me.  It works perfectly and always has.  I did once check through a few tanks full of gas (89 octaine 10% ethanol)  just to get a rough idea of the fuel economy.  It manages a bit over 100 mpg with my fat butt aboard.  My cost for OPERATING it for a year is something around $100 INCLUDING License and insurance!  and it is FAR from being the most economical of the small motorcycles out there.  It is practical, useful and handy.

                                I am not saying that gas engines on bicycles are not workable.  What I AM saying is that there are good alternatives that are gas powered IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT, that are already engineered and all the questions answered for you.  You don't have to reinvent anything at all.

                                Do what you like.  But if I am going Mogas, I will take a motorcycle like my Honda over any cobbled together piece.  All the fiddly stuff is DONE and there are no questions on legality or anything else.

                                Bicycles are BICYCLES.  I like a small electric assist yes.  But I think that GASOLINE engines somewhat defeat the purpose!

                                As I said, THIS is just my opinion...NOT a definitive answer for anyone.  All I can say about electric assist is that the Currie that I have suits my needs EXTREMELY well.  Unfortunately, they are no longer available in kit form.  But I still like mine a great deal!

                                Papa Balloon



                                --
                                Family FUN!.....with a twist!

                                Papa Balloon
                              • jj
                                ... Don t believe it: He still comes out and pokes at our Stoked X s whenever we swing by the shop :-D Seriously, Todd has created an amazingly user friendly
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 1, 2010
                                  Todd from Clever wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I also removed the foot retention "requirement" from the product's
                                  > warnings some months ago. I admit that my motivation in putting that
                                  > in in the first place was partly to filter out potential customers who
                                  > I feared might not be experienced enough bikers to use SM safely.
                                  > Heck, maybe that warning was a secret appeal to hard-riding
                                  > early-adopter types whose feedback I sought. After many years of
                                  > riders of many skill levels and no injuries reported, well, I've relaxed.
                                  >

                                  Don't believe it: He still comes out and pokes at our Stoked X's
                                  whenever we swing by the shop :-D

                                  Seriously, Todd has created an amazingly user friendly tool.

                                  My wife had 3 heart attacks in 2002, dropped dead (and was revived in
                                  2006) and clocked hundreds of miles on her stoked X in 2009. It
                                  alleviates the fear of being "stuck", unable to get home when she is at
                                  the bottom of the hill near our house. Even if she is using the max
                                  power from the stoke, and is barely able to pedal, she can get home. Oh,
                                  and she lost 20+ lbs this year, to boot (we think she lost more, but
                                  that is the stated amount by her cardiologist.)

                                  I bought a Stoke to keep up with HER, but I found it to be very very
                                  useful for almost everything, from giving strangers rides at Farmers
                                  Market, to hauling home xmas shopping, to riding in the WNBR and helping
                                  folks on bike-moves.

                                  When our kids are old enough for a car, they get a Stoked BigDummy
                                  instead. Much more useful.

                                  JJ

                                  >
                                • todd
                                  ... Hub motors will beat SM in cost-effectiveness for cruising along at 15-20mph in flat or gently rolling terrain. For what you describe, it s different. For
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 1, 2010
                                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Morgan Scherer" <morganes@...> wrote:

                                    > Any more thoughts on the relative merits of the stokemonkey versus a good cycle9 hub motor?

                                    Hub motors will beat SM in cost-effectiveness for cruising along at 15-20mph in flat or gently rolling terrain. For what you describe, it's different. For extended loaded climbing, the cost difference versus hub motors may well be recovered or reversed by the efficiency differences and the lower cost of batteries this implies.

                                    I'm going to get a little technical here, and i'll try to be terse because I don't want to go on too long about a product I sell in this forum. Apologies in advance if I succeed only in confusing things.

                                    You wrote previously:

                                    "Including myself, I'm wanting to haul
                                    about 360 lbs for at least 15 miles though hilly terrain on one charge. I want
                                    to the motor to be able to help on the flats for those times I want to hurry
                                    (maybe going 15mph, when I would normally go 12), though in reality I've tended
                                    to mostly use electric assists in the past to increase my speed on hills (maybe
                                    12 mph instead of 3)"

                                    Have a look at http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/ProdDiss/Bicycle/BIKEcalc1.HTM . Ignore most fields; concentrate on total weight, desired speed, and steepness of grade. Using your numbers I come up with about 500W being the power requirement for going 5mph up a 10% grade. San Francisco's steepest grades are 31%, and I know Seattle is almost as hilly, so 10% is pretty modest by local standards.

                                    Now click on over to http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/ , which models the power/speed/efficiency/torque of several hub motors, including the one Stokemonkey is based upon. Assuming a 36V battery and 20A controller (as a starting point -- more later) you'll see that pretty much all of the motors can produce around 500W at their optimum -- the kind of power you need to move up that hill with your kids. But there's a catch.

                                    The thing with hub motors is that their power and other characteristics are tied directly to road speed. 500W is what you need to take that hill at 5mph. But look: the large majority of hub motors produce their ~500W max at a speed between 15-20mph. At 5mph, most of these motors can put out closer to 300W. If you want to maintain your 5mph to keep from slipping to an even weaker part of the motor's curve, you must contribute 200W. You may be fine with that, but the motor efficiency at this part of the curve is seldom better than 50%. The other 50% is turning into heat, which, even if your motor can dissipate that without becoming an even more resistive heating element, isn't something you can afford if you want to go 15 miles loaded in hills on a single charge: not unless you want to carry an absurd weight and expense of batteries.

                                    How much battery do you need to go 15mi with your load? Let's say half of it is 10% uphill, and the rest is "free" downhill. 7.5 miles at 5mph will take 1.5 hours. At 500W, that's 750 watt hours. At 36V, that's about 21Ah of battery. Now, if you're running at 50% efficiency, you'll actually need 42Ah. I admit that this is a somewhat contrived worst case; plug in your own numbers. But remember to go back and add the weight of the extra batteries to the power requirements...

                                    Stokemonkey can apply its full ~500W at any speed you have a gear for, and at ~70% efficiency. Pedal faster -- say, adding that 200W -- and the efficiency can go up to around 80%.
                                  • Jeff Snavely
                                    A car may drive the wheels as long as your foot is on the gas pedal, but you know not to keep your foot on the gas if you want to slow down. Everyone tries to
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 1, 2010
                                      A car may drive the wheels as long as your foot is on the gas pedal, but you know not to keep your foot on the gas if you want to slow down.

                                      Everyone tries to coast a fixie at least once, and most people will try to coast a stokemonkey without lifting the throttle at least once (I have, but my wife hasn't). The stokemonkey is a much less traumatic experience though. Lift the throttle, put your foot back on and keep riding.

                                      Other than that one incident, I have never felt that my feet were being driven.



                                      On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Jeff Snavely <jsnavely@...> wrote:


                                      I fail to see the correlation between a stokemonkey and a fixed gear bike. And I own both.



                                      A fixed-gear bike, while moving, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure you exert on them.

                                      A Stokemonkey, while engaged, drives the pedals regardless of the pressure you exert on them.  

                                       

                                    • David Dannenberg
                                      Ya know Papa, I think you are right. A motorcycle is a motorcycle and a bike is a bike, even an electric one. (and there are now electric scooters available
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 2, 2010
                                        Ya' know Papa, I think you are right. A motorcycle is a motorcycle and a bike is a bike, even an electric one. (and there are now electric scooters available to complicate this simple formula). It might be amusing to make a gas powered bike, but not likely to be cost efficient or as well engineered as a purpose built gas powered motorcycle or scooter.

                                        I have a 1964 Honda Trail 90 hanging in the garage being very slowly restored (well, made functional). Planned use is as a grocery getter in the neighborhood--too small for anything much more than city streets. Your 125 sounds like a beaut!

                                        Dave
                                      • Miguel Barroso
                                        Hi there, I ve just joind this group. I m 36, Portuguese, and live in Lisbon. I currently have a 97 GT Tequesta, that I plan to convert. I considered buying a
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 2, 2010
                                          Hi there,
                                           
                                          I've just joind this group.
                                           
                                          I'm 36, Portuguese, and live in Lisbon.
                                           
                                          I currently have a 97 GT Tequesta, that I plan to convert. I considered buying a Surly Big Dummy frame, but the price, and the fact that they are not sold here in Portugal, made me forget this idea.
                                          So, this month there will be another rootsradical here in Lisbon!
                                           
                                          Cheers,
                                           
                                          Miguel Barroso
                                        • Bruno
                                          Welcome Miguel, On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Miguel Barroso ... The price may be a deterrent indeed, but if you d want to get one they are available
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 2, 2010
                                            Welcome Miguel,

                                            On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Miguel Barroso <miguelbarroso@...> wrote:
                                            I currently have a 97 GT Tequesta, that I plan to convert. I considered buying a Surly Big Dummy frame, but the price, and the fact that they are not sold here in Portugal, made me forget this idea.

                                            The price may be a deterrent indeed, but if you'd want to get one they are available through you know who. ;-P That wouldn't be a reason for not getting one.

                                            Cheers,
                                            Bruno
                                          • Cara Lin Bridgman
                                            I ve got one of the tightest fits of stokemonkey to bike frame. I put a stokemonkey on a 16 Surly Instigator frame. There are literally 2-3 mm to spare on
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jan 6, 2010
                                              I've got one of the tightest fits of stokemonkey to bike frame. I put a
                                              stokemonkey on a 16" Surly Instigator frame. There are literally 2-3 mm
                                              to spare on all three sides and between chain and frame. The only way
                                              to make it fit was to put tongue of the free-radical below the chain
                                              stays, not above.

                                              CL

                                              Sean Moore wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Alas, not to be. I just went and measured my bike. Stokemonkey won't
                                              > fit on my ~19in Bianchi Milano. Chain clearance was close, room in the
                                              > triangle isn't in the ballpark.
                                              > --
                                              > Sean Moore
                                              > moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean@...>
                                            • Cara Lin Bridgman
                                              That s why I got the stokemonkey--so I could get home, which is near the top of a 280 m hill. CL
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jan 6, 2010
                                                That's why I got the stokemonkey--so I could get home, which is near the
                                                top of a 280 m hill.

                                                CL

                                                jj wrote:
                                                > It
                                                > alleviates the fear of being "stuck", unable to get home when she is at
                                                > the bottom of the hill near our house.
                                              • Jeff Snavely
                                                Yea, I changed my wife s Big Dummy from an 18 to a 16 at the last minute. That turned out to be a mistake. The stokemonkey fits, but not like it really should.
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jan 7, 2010
                                                  Yea, I changed my wife's Big Dummy from an 18 to a 16 at the last minute. That turned out to be a mistake. The stokemonkey fits, but not like it really should. I paid a shop to do it, but had to re-do all of their work when I got it home so I felt the full pain of fitting it in there.

                                                  I am sure my wife appreciates the slightly lower standover, but I would definitely buy the 18 if I were doing it over.


                                                  JeffS

                                                  On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman <shokulan@...> wrote:
                                                   

                                                  I've got one of the tightest fits of stokemonkey to bike frame. I put a
                                                  stokemonkey on a 16" Surly Instigator frame. There are literally 2-3 mm
                                                  to spare on all three sides and between chain and frame. The only way
                                                  to make it fit was to put tongue of the free-radical below the chain
                                                  stays, not above.

                                                  CL



                                                  Sean Moore wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Alas, not to be. I just went and measured my bike. Stokemonkey won't
                                                  > fit on my ~19in Bianchi Milano. Chain clearance was close, room in the
                                                  > triangle isn't in the ballpark.
                                                  > --
                                                  > Sean Moore
                                                  > moore.sean@... <mailto:moore.sean@...>


                                                • todd
                                                  let me guess: hard to get bracket out of path of right-side chain, especially if a derailleur gearing system? do-able, but tedious, i agree!
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jan 7, 2010
                                                    let me guess: hard to get bracket out of path of right-side chain, especially if a derailleur gearing system? do-able, but tedious, i agree!

                                                    --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Snavely <jsnavely@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Yea, I changed my wife's Big Dummy from an 18 to a 16 at the last minute.
                                                    > That turned out to be a mistake. The stokemonkey fits, but not like it
                                                    > really should. I paid a shop to do it, but had to re-do all of their work
                                                    > when I got it home so I felt the full pain of fitting it in there.
                                                    >
                                                    > I am sure my wife appreciates the slightly lower standover, but I would
                                                    > definitely buy the 18 if I were doing it over.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > JeffS
                                                    >
                                                    > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman <shokulan@...>wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I've got one of the tightest fits of stokemonkey to bike frame. I put a
                                                    > > stokemonkey on a 16" Surly Instigator frame. There are literally 2-3 mm
                                                    > > to spare on all three sides and between chain and frame. The only way
                                                    > > to make it fit was to put tongue of the free-radical below the chain
                                                    > > stays, not above.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > CL
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Sean Moore wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Alas, not to be. I just went and measured my bike. Stokemonkey won't
                                                    > > > fit on my ~19in Bianchi Milano. Chain clearance was close, room in the
                                                    > > > triangle isn't in the ballpark.
                                                    > > > --
                                                    > > > Sean Moore
                                                    > > > moore.sean@... <moore.sean%40gmail.com> <mailto:
                                                    > > moore.sean@... <moore.sean%40gmail.com>>
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • Jeff Snavely
                                                    My crank arm was hitting the bracket after I aligned things where I wanted them. The bike shop had apparently twisted the bracket (and chainline) to avoid
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jan 7, 2010
                                                      My crank arm was hitting the bracket after I aligned things where I wanted them. The bike shop had apparently twisted the bracket (and chainline) to avoid this. I cut the end of the bracket off. On a larger frame, I would have offset the motor slightly for a better chainline. I didn't have that option here though. I had to have it centered for every mm of available clearance. I'm hoping we can keep it running as the chain wears. If not, I will just replace the chain more often.

                                                      It wouldn't have been such a big deal if I hadn't been so pissed about having to redo it in the first place. What really put me over the top was finding that the shop monkey had clamped the SM mount OVER the top of the water bottle bosses, crushing them into the tube.

                                                      It's been months and I still haven't calmed down enough to lodge my complaint.






                                                      On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:20 PM, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                                                       

                                                      let me guess: hard to get bracket out of path of right-side chain, especially if a derailleur gearing system? do-able, but tedious, i agree!



                                                      --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Snavely <jsnavely@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Yea, I changed my wife's Big Dummy from an 18 to a 16 at the last minute.
                                                      > That turned out to be a mistake. The stokemonkey fits, but not like it
                                                      > really should. I paid a shop to do it, but had to re-do all of their work
                                                      > when I got it home so I felt the full pain of fitting it in there.
                                                      >
                                                      > I am sure my wife appreciates the slightly lower standover, but I would
                                                      > definitely buy the 18 if I were doing it over.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > JeffS
                                                      >
                                                      > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Cara Lin Bridgman <shokulan@...>wrote:

                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I've got one of the tightest fits of stokemonkey to bike frame. I put a
                                                      > > stokemonkey on a 16" Surly Instigator frame. There are literally 2-3 mm
                                                      > > to spare on all three sides and between chain and frame. The only way
                                                      > > to make it fit was to put tongue of the free-radical below the chain
                                                      > > stays, not above.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > CL
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Sean Moore wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Alas, not to be. I just went and measured my bike. Stokemonkey won't
                                                      > > > fit on my ~19in Bianchi Milano. Chain clearance was close, room in the
                                                      > > > triangle isn't in the ballpark.
                                                      > > > --
                                                      > > > Sean Moore
                                                      > > > moore.sean@... <moore.sean%40gmail.com> <mailto:
                                                      > > moore.sean@... <moore.sean%40gmail.com>>
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >


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