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Re: [rootsradicals] Re: Rims, hubs, brakes for Big Dummy?

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  • Devian Gilbert
    XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for this. or you can simply bend some metal tubing, hammer flat the end, and drill a hole
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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      XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for this.
      or
      you can simply bend some metal tubing, hammer flat the end, and drill a hole thru it, for the bolt.

      d-

      "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race." H.G. Wells



      On Nov 1, 2009, at 4:38 PM, philip_b_chase wrote:

      The BB7s are very popular on this forum. I have a pair of those and they work great. Last week I did an emergency stop with 400lbs of bike, rider(s) and cargo from 15 MPH--no problems! I did have some cable issues when I had to replace my rear cables in a handle bar upgrade, so I extracted the cable from the housing, lubed it with olive oil (extra virgin of course) and haven't had a problem since I did it 12 months back.

      There are some issues with the BB7 in the rear. The outer pad adjuster will drill a hole in your freeloader if you don't have something to separate the two or reinforce the freeloader. OTOH, you might regard this is a feature. After the adjuster drills through the freeloader you can adjust the outer pad by opening the freeloader pocket. 

      Seriously, this is pretty handy. Without that convenience you'll have to release the rear end of the left freeloader to get to the outer adjuster. That said, there is no similar help for the inner pad adjuster. For that I unhook the back of the right freeloader and reach through the wheel with a longer torx driver to turn the adjuster. 

      With only one BB7 I'd put it in the front. Adjustment is easy and it'll get a lot of service. Unloaded, the backend of an Xtracycle skitters all around in braking. The long tail shifts so much weight forward the unloaded X drives like an unloaded pick up truck. So you'll use the front almost exclusively when unloaded.

      For the rear brake just use a decent V-brake. When you are loaded (well, when the *bike's* loaded ;-) the rear tire gets a lot more weight. With the long wheelbase a significant portion of that weight stays on the rear tire even in hard braking. So the rear brakes then become important. I recommend V-brakes in the rear because adjustment is so much easier than with cantilever. In my world view if the adjustment is easy you'll do it and you'll have good brakes. If the adjustment is tedious you'll ignore it and have bad brakes. V-brakes are easier to adjust and they'll be very accessible even with the freeloaders on.

      Philip

      --- In rootsradicals@ yahoogroups. com, Doug Van Cleve <dvancleve@. ..> wrote:
      >
      > Howdy folks.
      > 
      > Well my bargain BD arrived yesterday. I am going to use as much of my
      > old Trek 8000 as I can in the build, but the wheels and brakes probably
      > won't cut it long term. I am trying to keep this low budget, so no
      > Large Marges or anything like that. It looks to me like these wider
      > than average rims are all pretty cheap: Sun Rhyno Lite (27.5mm), Sun
      > Rhyno Lite XL (29mm) or Alex DM24 (32mm). Sun also has several disc
      > specific rims that seem pretty well suited: MTX31/33/39 (# is rim
      > width) and Equalizer 31. Anybody have any experience with any of these?
      > I don't know how much heavy stuff I might haul, but an 850G rim (the
      > MTX39) seems excessive to me (even for a BD).
      > 
      > My Trek is pretty old and has canti brakes. I know I could use them up
      > front on the BD, but is there any reasonable way to make them work in
      > back? I was thinking about discs, but I only have a single disc brake
      > in my stable, an Avid BB7 road front on my fixie. Seems like hydraulic
      > would be the way to go on a BD (no LONG rear cable/housing) , but I have
      > no idea if there are good and inexpensive hydraulic brakes or what they
      > might be. Any reason not to go 200 up front and 180 in back? Seems like
      > all things being equal the bigger rotors will last longer if nothing
      > else.
      > 
      > Hubs (assuming discs): 6-bolt or Centerlock? What is available that is
      > good and in the price range of XT (or less :^) or should I just stick
      > with XT?
      > 
      > Thanks, Doug
      > 
      > 
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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      >


    • Cara Lin Bridgman
      That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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        That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.

        Devian Gilbert wrote:
        > XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for
        > this.
      • philip_b_chase
        I always figured that would happen--I ve just never seen anyone say it! I still assert the adjuster hole is awesome. I suppose with other disk brakes it might
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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          I always figured that would happen--I've just never seen anyone say it!

          I still assert the adjuster hole is awesome. I suppose with other disk brakes it might be some other part that pokes through tough.

          So another story about the BB7 adjuster knobs: Pretty early on my front adjuster fell off and I never found it. You can still adjust it by turning the tiny flattened metal shaft that fits at the center of the adjuster but I was a bit annoyed. So recently I reached my free loader pocket to adjust the rear brakes and found to my horror that the rear adjuster had fallen off as well. After some brief cursing I thought to feel inside the pocket and, sure enough, the adjuster was in the pocket. Reinstallation was a snap!

          So again the hole in the freeloader is a feature not a bug.

          Philip

          --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Cara Lin Bridgman <shokulan@...> wrote:
          >
          > That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.
          >
          > Devian Gilbert wrote:
          > > XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for
          > > this.
          >
        • Devian Gilbert
          maybe turn it around? it faces inward the eyelet for the retaining bolt goes forward. aint had a problem yet, at least 3yrs now. of course everyone is
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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            maybe turn it around?
            it faces inward
            the eyelet for the retaining bolt goes forward.

            aint had a problem yet, at least 3yrs now.

            of course everyone is different
            "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race." H.G. Wells



            On Nov 1, 2009, at 5:33 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:

            That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.

            Devian Gilbert wrote:
            > XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for 
            > this.


          • Cara Lin Bridgman
            So how do you keep all the junk in your free-loaders from applying pressure to and affecting the rear brake? CL
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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              So how do you keep all the junk in your free-loaders from applying
              pressure to and affecting the rear brake?

              CL

              Devian Gilbert wrote:
              > maybe turn it around?
              > it faces inward
              > the eyelet for the retaining bolt goes forward.
              >
              > aint had a problem yet, at least 3yrs now.
              >
              > of course everyone is different
              >
              > On Nov 1, 2009, at 5:33 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:
              >
              >> That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.
              >>
              >> Devian Gilbert wrote:
              >> > XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for
              >> > this.
            • Devian Gilbert
              maybe a pic is the best way
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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                maybe a pic is the best way 

                more pics in sequence.

                this is how I've been using mine, for over 3yrs.

                oh well...

                d-
                "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race." H.G. Wells



                On Nov 1, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:

                So how do you keep all the junk in your free-loaders from applying 
                pressure to and affecting the rear brake?

                CL

                Devian Gilbert wrote:
                > maybe turn it around?
                > it faces inward
                > the eyelet for the retaining bolt goes forward.
                > 
                > aint had a problem yet, at least 3yrs now.
                > 
                > of course everyone is different
                > 
                > On Nov 1, 2009, at 5:33 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:
                > 
                >> That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.
                >>
                >> Devian Gilbert wrote:
                >> > XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector, specifically for 
                >> > this.


              • Cara Lin Bridgman
                Thanks Devian, The pics are great. That looks like how I ve got the caliper protector attached. Since it s on a free-radical, the entire housing is lower
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 1, 2009
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                  Thanks Devian,

                  The pics are great. That looks like how I've got the caliper protector
                  attached. Since it's on a free-radical, the entire housing is lower
                  down. It tends to wear a hole near the bottom center of the
                  free-loader's internal pocket.

                  CL

                  Devian Gilbert wrote:
                  > maybe a pic is the best way
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsradicals/photos/album/353565063/pic/1146563506/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=81&count=20&dir=asc
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsradicals/photos/album/353565063/pic/1146563506/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=81&count=20&dir=asc>
                  >
                  > more pics in sequence.
                  >
                  > this is how I've been using mine, for over 3yrs.
                  >
                  > oh well...
                  >
                  > On Nov 1, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:
                  >> So how do you keep all the junk in your free-loaders from applying
                  >> pressure to and affecting the rear brake?
                  >>
                  >> CL
                  >>
                  >> Devian Gilbert wrote:
                  >> > maybe turn it around?
                  >> > it faces inward
                  >> > the eyelet for the retaining bolt goes forward.
                  >> >
                  >> > aint had a problem yet, at least 3yrs now.
                  >> >
                  >> > of course everyone is different
                  >> >
                  >> > On Nov 1, 2009, at 5:33 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> >> That caliper protector is precisely what dug a hole in my free-loaders.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Devian Gilbert wrote:
                  >> >> > XtraCycle used to sell a disc brake caliper protector,
                  >> specifically for
                  >> >> > this.
                • David Dannenberg
                  I had BB-7s and hated them. They would not stay adjusted for more than one ride, less if it was raining and/or there was any silt on the road. I have them on
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                    I had BB-7s and hated them. They would not stay adjusted for more than
                    one ride, less if it was raining and/or there was any silt on the
                    road. I have them on my mountain bike and they are fine, but they were
                    an out and out failure on the BD.

                    I do know others like them, so maybe it is just a fluke, or a feature
                    of the sloppy conditions I rode in.

                    David
                  • David Dannenberg
                    Caliper protector from X is not compatible with 200mm rotors. If you use a smaller disk, it will work. Wanna buy mine? David
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                      Caliper protector from X is not compatible with 200mm rotors. If you
                      use a smaller disk, it will work. Wanna' buy mine?

                      David
                    • Andrew Kreps
                      ... I ve used two different Shimano hydraulic calipers on the back of my Big Dummy, and I haven t had any issues. One of the nicest things about hydros is
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                        On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM, philip_b_chase <philipbchase@...> wrote:
                        > There are some issues with the BB7 in the rear.  The outer pad adjuster will drill a hole in
                        > your freeloader if you don't have something to separate the two or reinforce the freeloader.

                        I've used two different Shimano hydraulic calipers on the back of my
                        Big Dummy, and I haven't had any issues. One of the nicest things
                        about hydros is that they're self-adjusting.


                        > Unloaded, the backend of an Xtracycle skitters all around in braking.  The long tail shifts
                        > so much weight forward the unloaded X drives like an unloaded pick up truck.  So you'll
                        > use the front almost exclusively when unloaded.

                        I've only ever ridden the Big Dummy type of Xtracycle, but I've never
                        had this problem. Using only the front brake on a bike like this puts
                        a lot of stress in the head tube area, and can cause problems down the
                        road. I wonder if the problem here lies in the frame geometry? It
                        sound like the rider's weight may be placed too far forward.
                      • Andrew Kreps
                        ... Xtracycle recommends a 203 in the back due to heat shedding issues. I rode about 1300 miles with a pair of 160 s on my Big Dummy, and I never had an
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                          On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Doug Van Cleve <dvancleve@...> wrote:

                           Any reason not to go 200 up front and 180 in back? Seems like all things being equal the bigger rotors will last longer if nothing else.


                          Xtracycle recommends a 203 in the back due to heat shedding issues.  I rode about 1300 miles with a pair of 160's on my Big Dummy, and I never had an issue.  I did a fair amount of (relatively) extreme riding with it, including a number of off-road downhill sections that I was riding the brakes on.  

                           
                          Hubs (assuming discs): 6-bolt or Centerlock? What is available that is good and in the price range of XT (or less :^) or should I just stick with XT?


                          I just upgraded from the 6 bolt version to the Centerlock and I have to say that Centerlock is very, very easy to install.  No fumbling with small hex bolts and locktite, and the newest version of it uses the same cassette lockring removal tool you probably already have.  

                          The downside: Hubs are few and far between, comparatively.  While it's very easy to find a discount on a 6-bolt version, you'll probably pay a little bit more for the Centerlock version.  Is it worth it?  For my money, I say yes.  


                        • Devian Gilbert
                          on the BD, a 203 Avid rotor is not an issue in the front what is somewhat of an issue is... the caliper adaptor, for the rear wheel. that is... the 203 caliper
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                            on the BD, a 203 Avid rotor is not an issue in the front
                            what is somewhat of an issue is...
                            the caliper adaptor, for the rear wheel.
                            that is... the 203 caliper adaptor is tall enough to make getting an allen wrench into position a bit of a pain
                            specifically the allen bolts for the centering position.
                            that is, the bolts which are used to center the caliper.

                            so use a 185mm rotor on the rear.
                            203mm up front works fine.

                            the deal is leverage
                            not so much heat dissipation 
                            it aint NASCAR

                            in my experience, smaller rotors burn up pads faster.
                            especially if you compare a 160mm rotor to a 203
                            organic pads to metallic 

                            typically I use metallic pads
                            right now, I've got a set of Disco Brake 3xLife Ceramic pads.... uh... they are "ok"
                            when they wear out, I'm back to either Avid metallic or EBC Gold.

                            it really depends on how much weight and how much hill you are dealing with.
                            20mph on a long steep descent, with 100lbs of cargo... probably want big brakes.

                            riding around with cases of toilet paper, on flat city streets... probably can get away with smaller rotors.

                            heck... i think kona specs their ute with 160's on a 700c wheel
                            thats a lot of wheel leverage with little brake leverage.
                            so go figure uh?

                            personally i use 26" DH wheels and big rotors.

                            as to weight distribution.
                            nominally speaking, a traditional bike is 30%(f) 70%(r)
                            on the BD is more like 50/50
                            attention the section, re:  suspension 

                            here's the link for the BD PDF

                            as to stress on the headtube... I've opted to use a CK SteelSet... probably a standard headset is fine.
                            I've yet to hear of someone breaking a BD.

                            2 cent ramble... off

                            peace...d





                            "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race." H.G. Wells



                            On Nov 2, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Andrew Kreps wrote:


                            On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Doug Van Cleve <dvancleve@yahoo. com> wrote:

                             Any reason not to go 200 up front and 180 in back? Seems like all things being equal the bigger rotors will last longer if nothing else.


                            Xtracycle recommends a 203 in the back due to heat shedding issues.  I rode about 1300 miles with a pair of 160's on my Big Dummy, and I never had an issue.  I did a fair amount of (relatively) extreme riding with it, including a number of off-road downhill sections that I was riding the brakes on.  

                             
                            Hubs (assuming discs): 6-bolt or Centerlock? What is available that is good and in the price range of XT (or less :^) or should I just stick with XT?


                            I just upgraded from the 6 bolt version to the Centerlock and I have to say that Centerlock is very, very easy to install.  No fumbling with small hex bolts and locktite, and the newest version of it uses the same cassette lockring removal tool you probably already have.  

                            The downside: Hubs are few and far between, comparative ly.  While it's very easy to find a discount on a 6-bolt version, you'll probably pay a little bit more for the Centerlock version.  Is it worth it?  For my money, I say yes.  




                          • Rick Pickett
                            ... You might be able to get a 185mm on a Big Dummy, but we d love to see a 185mm on a FreeRadical. Cheers, Rick Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                              On Nov 2, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Devian Gilbert wrote:

                              so use a 185mm rotor on the rear.
                              203mm up front works fine.

                              You might be able to get a 185mm on a Big Dummy, but we'd love to see a 185mm on a FreeRadical.

                              Cheers,
                              Rick


                              "Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling."  – James E. Starrs

                              artistic shenaniganizer | rick@...
                              888.537-1401 x709 | every day adventure


                            • Devian Gilbert
                              ??? strange http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsradicals/photos/album/353565063/pic/177869854/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=41&count=20&dir=asc this
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                                ???
                                strange
                                this is the convert job i had used for a couple of years, it had a 203 on the rear.

                                when i built the BD i used the same parts
                                the 203 for the rear of the BD fit, but for ease of mechanical repair while not in the shop, 
                                i chose 185

                                here's the pic of 203 on the BD


                                "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race." H.G. Wells



                                On Nov 2, 2009, at 3:36 PM, Rick Pickett wrote:


                                On Nov 2, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Devian Gilbert wrote:

                                so use a 185mm rotor on the rear.
                                203mm up front works fine.

                                You might be able to get a 185mm on a Big Dummy, but we'd love to see a 185mm on a FreeRadical.

                                Cheers,
                                Rick


                                "Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling."  – James E. Starrs

                                artistic shenaniganizer | rick@xtracycle. com
                                888.537-1401 x709 | every day adventure




                              • philip_b_chase
                                ... Yeah my memories with this were with a X on my wife s old frame. That frame was a bit small for me. I m on a BD now and don t recall having this problem
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 2, 2009
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                                  --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM, philip_b_chase <philipbchase@...> wrote:
                                  ...
                                  > > Unloaded, the backend of an Xtracycle skitters all around in braking.  The long tail shifts
                                  > > so much weight forward the unloaded X drives like an unloaded pick up truck.  So you'll
                                  > > use the front almost exclusively when unloaded.
                                  >
                                  > I've only ever ridden the Big Dummy type of Xtracycle, but I've never
                                  > had this problem. Using only the front brake on a bike like this puts
                                  > a lot of stress in the head tube area, and can cause problems down the
                                  > road. I wonder if the problem here lies in the frame geometry? It
                                  > sound like the rider's weight may be placed too far forward.

                                  Yeah my memories with this were with a X on my wife's old frame. That frame was a bit small for me. I'm on a BD now and don't recall having this problem with it, but I rarely ride it empty either, so I can't say I have good comparative data.

                                  Suffice to say, weight in the rear enhances track and improves load distribution. When I do extreme braking with heavy load the rear tire doesn't lock up. It's *never* happened.

                                  As to excessive head tube stress, I'm not worried. When the bike is light in the rear I'm more concerned the backend grip the pavement during braking than with the long term health of my headset. Besides I bet the headset load is way higher when I have to slam on both brakes when my cargo has double the mass I have to stop.

                                  Philip
                                • Drew
                                  A buddy of mine at one of my local shops posted his experience returning kegs. http://www.velocult.com/index.php/blog/post/hauling_two_kegs_with_a_bicycle/ He
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 3, 2009
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                                    A buddy of mine at one of my local shops posted his experience returning kegs.
                                    http://www.velocult.com/index.php/blog/post/hauling_two_kegs_with_a_bicycle/

                                    He really pushes commuting here in San Diego.
                                    I need to get him in the test ride list. they'll lend you one for a couple of days to try out.

                                    http://www.velocult.com
                                    http://wwwsdbikecommuter.com

                                  • Steve Lange
                                    ... That s rad, but it s important to note the kegs were empty. In my experience with an Xtracycle to date, trying to haul two full kegs (or an equivalent
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 3, 2009
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                                      On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Drew <shringara2@...> wrote:

                                      A buddy of mine at one of my local shops posted his experience returning kegs.
                                      http://www.velocult.com/index.php/blog/post/hauling_two_kegs_with_a_bicycle/

                                      He really pushes commuting here in San Diego.
                                      I need to get him in the test ride list. they'll lend you one for a couple of days to try out. 

                                      That's rad, but it's important to note the kegs were empty. In my experience with an Xtracycle to date, trying to haul two full kegs (or an equivalent weight) would really be pushing it... Maybe on a Big Dummy, but almost certainly not on an Xtracycle. It would be noodle-city.

                                      That said, I'll be happy to be proven wrong! Sadly my days of needing to get two full kegs anywhere are long since over.

                                      Steve

                                    • Andrew Kreps
                                      ... Wikipedia states that filled to capacity, a quarter/pony keg weighs around 90lbs, and a full size keg weighs between 140 and 170 lbs. The weight alone
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 3, 2009
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                                        On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Steve Lange <steve@...> wrote:

                                        That's rad, but it's important to note the kegs were empty. In my experience with an Xtracycle to date, trying to haul two full kegs (or an equivalent weight) would really be pushing it... Maybe on a Big Dummy, but almost certainly not on an Xtracycle. It would be noodle-city.


                                        Wikipedia states that filled to capacity, a quarter/pony keg weighs around 90lbs, and a full size keg weighs between 140 and 170 lbs.  The weight alone would cause issues, but you also have liquid sloshing around in there...a recipe for disaster.  Or at least a fun youtube clip.

                                        Dig the self-portrait!


                                      • Bill
                                        best use yet...... 830 446 3114 - asynchronous communication
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Nov 3, 2009
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                                          best use yet......

                                          830 446 3114 -  asynchronous communication

                                        • Rick Pickett
                                          For those seeking full-keg relief: http://www.xtracyclegallery.com/2009/03/311-xtracycle-sidekeg.html ... the garage and 1 keg. Sad days. Melancholy is
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Nov 3, 2009
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                                            For those seeking full-keg relief:

                                            http://www.xtracyclegallery.com/2009/03/311-xtracycle-sidekeg.html

                                            :D .  The first party I threw in San Diego consisted of 6 co-workers, the garage and 1 keg. Sad days.

                                            "Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling."  – James E. Starrs

                                            artistic shenaniganizer | rick@...
                                            888.537-1401 x709 | every day adventure





                                            On Nov 3, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Bill wrote:

                                             

                                            best use yet......


                                            830 446 3114 -  asynchronous communication



                                          • Liz W. Durham
                                            Awesome photo! So, is that rigger up like a sidecar so to speak? From: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Nov 4, 2009
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                                              Awesome photo! So, is that rigger up like a sidecar so to speak?

                                               

                                               

                                              From: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Pickett
                                              Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:59 AM
                                              To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [rootsradicals] 2 kegs 1 bike

                                               

                                               

                                              For those seeking full-keg relief:

                                               

                                              http://www.xtracyclegallery.com/2009/03/311-xtracycle-sidekeg.html

                                               

                                              :D .  The first party I threw in San Diego consisted of 6 co-workers, the garage and 1 keg. Sad days.

                                               

                                              "Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling."  – James E. Starrs

                                               

                                              artistic shenaniganizer | rick@...

                                              888.537-1401 x709 | every day adventure

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              On Nov 3, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Bill wrote:



                                               

                                              best use yet......


                                              830 446 3114 -  asynchronous communication

                                               

                                               

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