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Re: [romconlang] etymological insanity

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  • Carl Edlund Anderson
    ... Of the free, online English dictionaries, I find the American Heritage Dictionary (including its appendice on IE and Semetic roots) is the best at this
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2003
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      On sábado, novi 1, 2003, at 04:07 Europe/London, Adam Walker wrote:
      > Unfortunately, my
      > English dictionary only traces the etym. back to ME!
      > I wonder what Miriam Webster has on-line . . .

      Of the free, online English dictionaries, I find the American Heritage
      Dictionary (including its appendice on IE and Semetic roots) is the
      best at this kind of thing. It's no OED, but it is freely available :)

      Cheers,
      Carl

      --
      Carl Edlund Anderson
      mailto:carl@...
      http://www. carlaz.com/
    • Jan van Steenbergen
      ... If you are looking for an Old English dictionary, this might be helpful: Gerhard Köbler: Altenglisches Wörterbuch
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2003
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        --- Carl Edlund Anderson skrzypszy:

        > Of the free, online English dictionaries, I find the American
        > Heritage Dictionary (including its appendice on IE and Semetic
        > roots) is the best at this kind of thing. It's no OED, but it is
        > freely available :)

        If you are looking for an Old English dictionary, this might be
        helpful:

        Gerhard Köbler: Altenglisches Wörterbuch
        <http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/aewbhinw.html>

        Old English Lexicon
        <http://www.northvegr.org/lore/oldenglish/index.html>

        Jan
      • kesuari@yahoo.com.au
        ... I think OED was meant to stand for Oxford English Dictionary (i.e. the really big one for English). But I was just about to look for an OE Dictionary, so
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2003
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          On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Jan van Steenbergen wrote:

          > --- Carl Edlund Anderson skrzypszy:
          >
          > > Of the free, online English dictionaries, I find the American
          > > Heritage Dictionary (including its appendice on IE and Semetic
          > > roots) is the best at this kind of thing.  It's no OED, but it is
          > > freely available :)
          >
          > If you are looking for an Old English dictionary, this might be
          > helpful:

          I think OED was meant to stand for Oxford English Dictionary (i.e. the
          really big one for English).

          But I was just about to look for an OE Dictionary, so thanks :)

          --
          Tristan
        • Carl Edlund Anderson
          ... Yes, OED was meant to stand for Oxford English Dictionary, but I hadn t known about that particular Old English Dictionary, so the answer was quite handy
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 3, 2003
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            At 03:25 02/11/2003, kesuari@... wrote:
            >On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
            > > --- Carl Edlund Anderson skrzypszy:
            > > > Of the free, online English dictionaries, I find the American
            > > > Heritage Dictionary (including its appendice on IE and Semetic
            > > > roots) is the best at this kind of thing. It's no OED, but it is
            > > > freely available :)
            > >
            > > If you are looking for an Old English dictionary, this might be
            > > helpful:
            >
            >I think OED was meant to stand for Oxford English Dictionary (i.e. the
            >really big one for English).
            >But I was just about to look for an OE Dictionary, so thanks :)

            Yes, OED was meant to stand for Oxford English Dictionary, but I hadn't
            known about that particular Old English Dictionary, so the answer was quite
            handy in any case :)

            Cheers,
            Carl


            --
            Carl Edlund Anderson
            mailto:cea@...
            http://www.carlaz.com/
          • Carl Edlund Anderson
            Can anyone recommend some good resources (online or printed) for Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of Italic? I m doing a little bit of conlang work
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 4, 2003
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              Can anyone recommend some good resources (online or printed) for
              Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of Italic? I'm doing a little
              bit of conlang work (a conlanglet?) in which I essentially want to make an
              "alternate Latin" (and I'll eventually get on to tying "alternate Romance"
              descendents to it :)

              Cheers,
              Carl


              --
              Carl Edlund Anderson
              mailto:cea@...
              http://www.carlaz.com/
            • Adam Walker
              I don t have or know any such resources, but please do let us have a summary of what you find. This could be useful/interesting/cool. Adam ... ===== Il prori
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 4, 2003
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                I don't have or know any such resources, but please do
                let us have a summary of what you find. This could be
                useful/interesting/cool.

                Adam

                --- Carl Edlund Anderson <cea@...> wrote:
                >
                > Can anyone recommend some good resources (online or
                > printed) for
                > Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of Italic?
                > I'm doing a little
                > bit of conlang work (a conlanglet?) in which I
                > essentially want to make an
                > "alternate Latin" (and I'll eventually get on to
                > tying "alternate Romance"
                > descendents to it :)
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Carl
                >
                >
                > --
                > Carl Edlund Anderson
                > mailto:cea@...
                > http://www.carlaz.com/
                >
                >


                =====
                Il prori ul pa雝veju fi dji atexindu mutu madji
                fached. -- Carrajena proverb
              • Jan van Steenbergen
                ... A very interesting project! I have been thinking about it more than once myself. Of course, I d like to be kept informed! ;)) Try Viteliu , a bunch of
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 4, 2003
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                  --- Carl Edlund Anderson skrzypszy:

                  > Can anyone recommend some good resources (online or printed) for
                  > Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of Italic? I'm doing a
                  > little bit of conlang work (a conlanglet?) in which I essentially
                  > want to make an "alternate Latin" (and I'll eventually get on to
                  > tying "alternate Romance" descendents to it :)

                  A very interesting project! I have been thinking about it more than
                  once myself. Of course, I'd like to be kept informed! ;))

                  Try "Viteliu", a bunch of interesting sites about the languages of
                  ancient Italy: <http://www.evolpub.com/LCA/VTLhome.html>

                  Googling for "Viteliu" will turn up other interesting stuff, like
                  this: <http://virtualitalia.com/links/links_language.shtml>

                  Jan
                • Costentin Cornomorus
                  ... I know I have, or at least have seen, a grammar sketch of Oscan and Umbrian in German (if you can t read German, at least you can make sense of the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 4, 2003
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                    --- Carl Edlund Anderson <cea@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Can anyone recommend some good resources
                    > (online or printed) for
                    > Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of
                    > Italic? I'm doing a little
                    > bit of conlang work (a conlanglet?) in which I
                    > essentially want to make an
                    > "alternate Latin" (and I'll eventually get on
                    > to tying "alternate Romance" descendents to
                    > it :)

                    I know I have, or at least have seen, a grammar
                    sketch of Oscan and Umbrian in German (if you
                    can't read German, at least you can make sense of
                    the paradigms).

                    I also have H.H. Janssen's "Oscan and Umbrian
                    Inscriptions with a Latin Translation". Be sure
                    to find Palmer's "The Latin Language" as well.

                    Padraic.



                    =====
                    To him that seeks, if he knock, the door will be opened;
                    if he seeks, he shall find his way; if he searches for a way, he shall find his path.
                    For though the Way is narrow, it's wisdom is written in the hearts of all:
                    if ye would seek and find Rest, look first within! [The Petricon]

                    --

                    Ill Bethisad --
                    <http://www.geocities.com/elemtilas/ill_bethisad>


                    Come visit The World! --
                    <http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/>







                    .
                  • Anton Sherwood
                    ... It might help to know that Palmer (1954) was reprinted by U.Okla.Press in 1988. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 4, 2003
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                      Costentin Cornomorus wrote:
                      > . . . . Be sure
                      > to find Palmer's "The Latin Language" as well.

                      It might help to know that Palmer (1954)
                      was reprinted by U.Okla.Press in 1988.

                      --
                      Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
                    • Carl Edlund Anderson
                      ... Not much, so far! Besides the Viteliu site that Jan mentioned, I m also aware of these web pages that touch on the suibject:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 5, 2003
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                        At 19:20 04/11/2003, Adam Walker wrote:
                        >I don't have or know any such resources, but please do
                        >let us have a summary of what you find. This could be
                        >useful/interesting/cool.

                        Not much, so far! Besides the Viteliu site that Jan mentioned, I'm also
                        aware of these web pages that touch on the suibject:

                        <http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/olat/> - Archaic Latin Inscriptions
                        <http://www.forumromanum.org/latin/buck_1.html> - _A Grammar of Oscan and
                        Umbrian_ by Carl Darling Buck
                        <http://pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm53.showMessage?topicID=49.topic> - _A
                        Comparative Latin Grammar_ by Cyril Babaev
                        <http://www.orbilat.com/Latin/Historical_Grammar/Latin-Vowel_Changes.htm> -
                        vowel changes from PIE.

                        In addition to the books mentioned by Padraic, I'm also given to understand
                        that there's an introductory sort of chapter on the changes between PIE and
                        Latin in Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paolo Ramat, _The Indo-European
                        Languages_ (London: Routledge, 1998).

                        Cheers,
                        Carl


                        --
                        Carl Edlund Anderson
                        mailto:cea@...
                        http://www.carlaz.com/
                      • habarakhe4
                        ... little ... make an ... Romance ... What sort of alternate Latin were you contemplating?
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 5, 2003
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                          --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, Carl Edlund Anderson <cea@c...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Can anyone recommend some good resources (online or printed) for
                          > Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of Italic? I'm doing a
                          little
                          > bit of conlang work (a conlanglet?) in which I essentially want to
                          make an
                          > "alternate Latin" (and I'll eventually get on to tying "alternate
                          Romance"
                          > descendents to it :)
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Carl
                          What sort of alternate Latin were you contemplating?
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Carl Edlund Anderson
                          > mailto:cea@c...
                          > http://www.carlaz.com/
                        • Carl Edlund Anderson
                          ... It s really for a little alternate world project that I have -- not actually set in historical Italy or anywhere on this Earth -- but I like
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 6, 2003
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                            At 05:39 06/11/2003, habarakhe4 wrote:
                            >--- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, Carl Edlund Anderson <cea@c...>
                            >wrote:
                            > > Can anyone recommend some good resources (online or printed) for
                            > > Archaic/Old Latin (or other archaic forms of Italic? I'm doing
                            > > a little bit of conlang work (a conlanglet?) in which I
                            > > essentially want to make an "alternate Latin" (and I'll
                            > > eventually get on to tying "alternate Romance" descendents to it
                            > > :)
                            >
                            >What sort of alternate Latin were you contemplating?

                            It's really for a little "alternate world" project that I have -- not
                            actually set in historical Italy or anywhere on this Earth -- but I like
                            Indo-European languages too well to give them up, so I thought I would just
                            play with them a little in my new world (because that would be fun).

                            The primary guideline in my "alternate Latin" is I'm trying to exclude
                            Hellenic influences (mostly because I decided long ago that I didn't know
                            enough Greek to play with it, but now also because I've come to realize the
                            quantity of Greek in historical Latin _really_ forces me to _work_ in order
                            to avoid it! :) I suppose I could try to reconstruct Greek words back
                            through PIE and then down into Italic again, but I'd need to know rather
                            more about all the sounds changes than I yet do. I also figured borrowing
                            some more features from other Italic languages would be interesting, and so
                            far I'm happy to keep non-IE borrowings in my alternate Latin (Etruscan,
                            Semitic, what-have-you -- though I haven't though much about the place of
                            "alternate Semitic" in my hypothetical world). I also wanted to retain
                            some interesting Archaic/Old Latin features (the older diphongs, for
                            example), and change the orthography so it all looked a bit more alien
                            (and, ironically, a bit more "Greek-like" ;)

                            I had planned at least one "modern" descendant of my alternate Latin,
                            modelled on the kinds of changes that produced Catalan (though of course my
                            version wouldn't have all the Greek borrowings and such that Catalan
                            inherited :)

                            Cheers,
                            Carl


                            --
                            Carl Edlund Anderson
                            mailto:cea@...
                            http://www.carlaz.com/
                          • Carl Edlund Anderson
                            I would have thought a stressed short /o/ in Latin should become /ue/ in Spanish, but it seems to me that the /o/ in /rosa/ escapes this. Is this an effect of
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 27, 2004
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                              I would have thought a stressed short /o/ in Latin should become /ue/ in
                              Spanish, but it seems to me that the /o/ in /rosa/ escapes this. Is this
                              an effect of the following -s-? Have I misunderstood which is the tonic
                              vowel? Or is something else at work to keep /rosa/ from becoming /**ruesa/?

                              Clearly the short /o/ of rosa escapes alteration in other Romance languages
                              as well, so I must be missing something obvious here ....

                              Cheers,
                              Carl


                              --
                              Carl Edlund Anderson
                              mailto:cea@...
                              http://www.carlaz.com/
                            • Jan van Steenbergen
                              ... Well, I know véry little about Spanish, but my guess is that it should rather be the /r/ that prevents /o/ from turning into /ue/. Jan ===== If you think
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 27, 2004
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                                --- Carl Edlund Anderson skrzypszy:

                                > I would have thought a stressed short /o/ in Latin should become /ue/ in
                                > Spanish, but it seems to me that the /o/ in /rosa/ escapes this. Is this
                                > an effect of the following -s-? Have I misunderstood which is the tonic
                                > vowel? Or is something else at work to keep /rosa/ from becoming /**ruesa/?

                                Well, I know véry little about Spanish, but my guess is that it should rather
                                be the /r/ that prevents /o/ from turning into /ue/.

                                Jan

                                =====
                                "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

                                ________________________________________________________________________
                                BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
                              • Isaac Penzev
                                ... No. It easily became _rueda_
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 27, 2004
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                                  Jan van Steenbergen a skr^ipt:

                                  > --- Carl Edlund Anderson skrzypszy:
                                  >
                                  > > I would have thought a stressed short /o/ in Latin should become /ue/ in
                                  > > Spanish, but it seems to me that the /o/ in /rosa/ escapes this. Is this
                                  > > an effect of the following -s-? Have I misunderstood which is the tonic
                                  > > vowel? Or is something else at work to keep /rosa/ from becoming /**ruesa/?
                                  >
                                  > Well, I know véry little about Spanish, but my guess is that it should rather
                                  > be the /r/ that prevents /o/ from turning into /ue/.

                                  No. It easily became _rueda_ < _rota_ 'wheel'. _rosa_ is an early borrowing from
                                  Latin. Yes, yes. Romance langs have two or three strata (layers) in their
                                  vocabulary: 1) derived directly from VL and thus subject to all phonetic
                                  changes; 2) early Latinisms that experienced mutations in limited way depending
                                  on the time of borrowing; 3) later "bookish" Latinisms, that could, btw,
                                  substitute already existing "vulgar" words, e.g. It. _gloria_ < L. =, while Old
                                  It. > _groglia_ or _grora_.

                                  -- Yitzik
                                • Carl Edlund Anderson
                                  ... Wow, I knew that Romance langs often borrow back from Latin, sometimes replacing or supplementing existing forms, but I hadn t expected a word like rose to
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                    At 20:34 27/01/2004, Isaac Penzev wrote:
                                    >It easily became _rueda_ < _rota_ 'wheel'. _rosa_ is an early borrowing from
                                    >Latin. Yes, yes. Romance langs have two or three strata (layers) in their
                                    >vocabulary: 1) derived directly from VL and thus subject to all phonetic
                                    >changes; 2) early Latinisms that experienced mutations in limited way
                                    >depending
                                    >on the time of borrowing; 3) later "bookish" Latinisms, that could, btw,
                                    >substitute already existing "vulgar" words, e.g. It. _gloria_ < L. =,
                                    >while Old
                                    >It. > _groglia_ or _grora_.

                                    Wow, I knew that Romance langs often borrow back from Latin, sometimes
                                    replacing or supplementing existing forms, but I hadn't expected a word
                                    like rose to be borrowed, at least not so early or so generally through
                                    Romance! Thanks for the explanation.

                                    Hmmm, perhaps in my "alternative Romance" I'll allow /rosa/ to carry on to
                                    /ruesa/ and the like :) I've been working on an "alternative Latin" that
                                    keeps a lot of archaic case endings but also tries to iron out some of the
                                    vocabulary differences between standard Classical Latin and later
                                    Romance. I was also going to hack up an "alternative Vulgar Latin" and
                                    some Romance descendants (based primarily on Spanish and Catalan).

                                    I've also just started working out a language that (inspired by Brithenig)
                                    takes a Continental Celtic vocabulary and tries to run it through the sound
                                    changes that produced Castillian Spanish from Latin. I've been discussing
                                    this on the celticaconlang group, but since in many ways it's as much a
                                    Romance conlang as a Celtic conlang, I thought I'd soon start asking some
                                    opinions here (especially since I'm very new to Romance linguistics!).

                                    Cheers,
                                    Carl


                                    --
                                    Carl Edlund Anderson
                                    mailto:cea@...
                                    http://www.carlaz.com/
                                  • Isaac Penzev
                                    ... Well, I would not call it borrowing . It s rather a bookish, high style word from learned society, cf. one of Mary s titles Lumen Caeli, Sancta Rosa .
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                      Carl Edlund Anderson a scris:

                                      > Wow, I knew that Romance langs often borrow back from Latin, sometimes
                                      > replacing or supplementing existing forms, but I hadn't expected a word
                                      > like rose to be borrowed, at least not so early or so generally through
                                      > Romance! Thanks for the explanation.

                                      Well, I would not call it "borrowing". It's rather a bookish, high style word
                                      from "learned" society, cf. one of Mary's titles 'Lumen Caeli, Sancta Rosa'. The
                                      words of this type usually belong to the second layer: Fr. _catholique_ does not
                                      show regular change /ka/ > /tSa/, as in L. _cattus_ > OFr. _chat_ [tSat] > MnFr.
                                      [Sa]; Es. _siglo_ 'century' < L. _saeculum_ demonstrates that it kept unstressed
                                      /u/ long enough to make /k/ > /g/ as in L. _focum_ > Es. _fuego_, cf. L.
                                      _oculus_ > _*oclu_ > OEs. _ojo_ [oZo] > MnEs. [oxo] (/i/ there is a result of
                                      contaction of diphthong /ie/ in closed syllable).

                                      > I've been working on an "alternative Latin"

                                      Wishing successes,
                                      -- Yitzik
                                    • Costentin Cornomorus
                                      ... I don t know about Italian or French, but Spanish was particularly prone to such learned borrowing. The phenomenon is clear in doublets, as above, that
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                        --- Carl Edlund Anderson <cea@...> wrote:
                                        > At 20:34 27/01/2004, Isaac Penzev wrote:
                                        > >It easily became _rueda_ < _rota_ 'wheel'.
                                        > _rosa_ is an early borrowing from
                                        > >Latin. Yes, yes. Romance langs have two or
                                        > three strata (layers) in their
                                        > >vocabulary: 1) derived directly from VL and
                                        > thus subject to all phonetic
                                        > >changes; 2) early Latinisms that experienced
                                        > mutations in limited way
                                        > >depending
                                        > >on the time of borrowing; 3) later "bookish"
                                        > Latinisms, that could, btw,
                                        > >substitute already existing "vulgar" words,
                                        > e.g. It. _gloria_ < L. =,
                                        > >while Old
                                        > >It. > _groglia_ or _grora_.
                                        >
                                        > Wow, I knew that Romance langs often borrow
                                        > back from Latin, sometimes
                                        > replacing or supplementing existing forms, but
                                        > I hadn't expected a word
                                        > like rose to be borrowed, at least not so early
                                        > or so generally through
                                        > Romance! Thanks for the explanation.

                                        I don't know about Italian or French, but Spanish
                                        was particularly prone to such learned borrowing.
                                        The phenomenon is clear in doublets, as above,
                                        that seem to defy the sound change rules. I've
                                        ensured that Kerno is replete with such
                                        situations. Off hand, there's facer (do, make -
                                        the usual native form) / facker (a learned form)
                                        / feaire (the most common form, borrowed from
                                        A-N).

                                        Padraic.


                                        =====
                                        bla�eni ni�tii duxomь ěko těxъ estъ cěsarьstvo nebesьskoe!
                                        -- Mt.5:3

                                        --

                                        Ill Bethisad --
                                        <http://www.geocities.com/elemtilas/ill_bethisad>


                                        Come visit The World! --
                                        <http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/>







                                        .
                                      • Muke Tever
                                        ... Don t forget 4) words borrowed from other Romance languages, like Sp. _país_ country (= Fr. _pays_). *Muke! -- http://frath.net/ E jer
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                          On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:34:54 +0200, Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:
                                          > Yes, yes. Romance langs have two or three strata (layers) in their
                                          > vocabulary: 1) derived directly from VL and thus subject to all phonetic
                                          > changes; 2) early Latinisms that experienced mutations in limited way
                                          > depending on the time of borrowing; 3) later "bookish" Latinisms, that
                                          > could, btw, substitute already existing "vulgar" words, e.g. It.
                                          > _gloria_ < L. =, while Old It. > _groglia_ or _grora_.

                                          Don't forget 4) words borrowed from other Romance languages, like Sp.
                                          _país_ "country" (= Fr. _pays_).


                                          *Muke!
                                          --
                                          http://frath.net/ E jer savne zarjé mas ne
                                          http://kohath.livejournal.com/ Se imné koone'f metha
                                          http://kohath.deviantart.com/ Brissve mé kolé adâ.
                                        • Isaac Penzev
                                          ... Sp. ... Right. They often can be recognised by irregular sound correspondences: Sp. _jardin_
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jan 29, 2004
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                                            Muke Tever scripsit:

                                            > Don't forget 4) words borrowed from other Romance languages, like
                                            Sp.
                                            > _pais_ "country" (= Fr. _pays_).

                                            Right. They often can be recognised by irregular sound
                                            correspondences: Sp. _jardin_ < Germ. _*garden_ could come only
                                            through Fr., because only there /ga/ > /dZa/.

                                            -- Yitzik
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