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Oscan Romlang

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  • Elliott Lash
    I don t know if this really counts but, I am really interested in Oscan (and Umbrian) and I thought you d enjoy it. This is basically running an inscription
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 1, 2010
      I don't know if this really counts but, I am really interested in Oscan (and Umbrian) and I thought you'd enjoy it.

      This is basically running an inscription through some sound changes as well as some syntax changes. The inscription is:

      kúmben-ed thesavr-úm pún paten-sí-ns múiník-ad tanginúd patensíns.
      agree.3S.PST treasury.ACC when open-IMPF.SBJ.3P common-ABL.FM consent-ABL.F " "

      It was agreed (that), the treasury, when they should open (it), they should open (it) by common consent.

      The New Oscan is:
      cumben-t-e po, pun gios pade-s-ens çu tesoru,
      agree-PST-3S that when they open-IMPF.SBJ-3P the treasury

      ze padesens cu tangine moieg-a.
      it open-IMPF.SBJ-3P with consent.F common-F

      /ku~be~tSi po pu~ Zos padeze~S Su tezoru ze padeze~S ku ta~Zine mojegu/

      Explanation:
      kúmben-ed
      This had no past tense characterization in Oscan. In New Oscan, the old perfect marker -tt- was extended to many non-marked past tenses. An example of -tt- in Oscan was prúfa-tt-ed _he approved_. Hence we get:
      cumben-t-e

      po : that from Oscan pod (Latin quod)
      gios : they from Oscan iusc (i- pronoun root, -us NOM PL ending, -c, deictic)
      çu : the from Oscan exuc (ex- pronoun root, -u[m] ACC ending, -c deictic)
      ze : it from Oscan ídík (íd- 'it' -ík deictic)
      cu : with from Oscan kúm

      tangine: from Oscan accusative, tanginím
      moiegu: from Oscan accusative, múíníkam

      I'm not sure why I decided that Oscan sounds somewhat like Brazil Portuguese, but it sounded nice :-)

      Elliott




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Capsicum
      I ve been waiting long for an Oscan conlang. I did look for Oscan words in my Latin dictionary and I read about sounds in Latin dialects influenced by Oscan. I
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
        I've been waiting long for an Oscan conlang. I did look for Oscan words in my Latin dictionary and I read about sounds in Latin dialects influenced by Oscan. I wanted to by a text book with Oscan inscriptions last autumn, but I decided to do later, because books cost money and I have to concentrate on Latin. I got an Old Latin text book though.

        Will you make more examples sentences? I would love to read them. Do you try to change Latin or Italian to modern Oscan too?

        I like your project.

        Capsicum
      • Padraic Brown
        ... Oscan is fun and makes a neat alternative to Latin for Italic conlangs. I never got any further than one short text with an Oscan-inspired conlang. I
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
          --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Capsicum <thomas@...> wrote:

          >I've been waiting long for an Oscan conlang. I did look for Oscan words >in my Latin dictionary and I read about sounds in Latin dialects >influenced by Oscan. I wanted to buy a text book with Oscan inscriptions >last autumn, but I decided to do later, because books cost money and I >have to concentrate on Latin. I got an Old Latin text book though.

          Oscan is fun and makes a neat alternative to Latin for Italic conlangs. I never got any further than one short text with an Oscan-inspired conlang. I should work on it again some time. Have you tried (if available) to find something on Oscan via interlibrary loan? I know there are a couple grammars -- I have one in German (which I don't read well, but can understand paradigms), but am looking into Buck's (cos it's in English). Amazon has a relatively inexpensive reprint; or better yet, go to http://www.archive.org/details/grammarofoscanum00buckuoft and get the pdf. Grammar plus inscriptions -- old but still quite serviceable.

          Padraic
        • Capsicum
          Thank you, I just started reading that online grammar book. /Capsicum
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
            Thank you,

            I just started reading that online grammar book.

            /Capsicum
          • Benct Philip Jonsson
            Ämne: Re: [romconlang] Oscan Romlang Från: Benct Philip Jonsson Datum: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:10:05 +0100 Till: romconlang@yahoogroups.com ...
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
              Ämne: Re: [romconlang] Oscan Romlang
              Från: Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>
              Datum: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:10:05 +0100
              Till: romconlang@yahoogroups.com

              Elliott Lash skrev:
              > I don't know if this really counts but, I am really interested
              in Oscan (and Umbrian) and I thought you'd enjoy it.
              > This is basically running an inscription through some sound
              changes as well as some syntax changes. The inscription is:
              >
              > kúmben-ed thesavr-úm pún paten-sí-ns
              múiník-ad tanginúd patensíns.
              > agree.3S.PST treasury.ACC when open-IMPF.SBJ.3P
              common-ABL.FM consent-ABL.F " "
              > It was agreed (that), the treasury, when they should open (it),
              they should open (it) by common consent.
              >
              > The New Oscan is:
              > cumben-t-e po, pun gios pade-s-ens
              çu tesoru, agree-PST-3S that when they
              open-IMPF.SBJ-3P the treasury
              >
              > ze padesens cu tangine moieg-a.
              > it open-IMPF.SBJ-3P with consent.F common-F
              >
              > /ku~be~tSi po pu~ Zos padeze~S Su tezoru ze padeze~S ku ta~Zine
              mojegu/
              >
              > Explanation:
              > kúmben-ed This had no past tense characterization in Oscan.
              In New Oscan, the old perfect marker -tt- was extended to many
              non-marked past tenses. An example of -tt- in Oscan was
              prúfa-tt-ed _he approved_. Hence we get:
              > cumben-t-e
              >
              > po : that from Oscan pod (Latin quod)
              > gios : they from Oscan iusc (i- pronoun root, -us NOM PL
              ending, -c, deictic)
              > çu : the from Oscan exuc (ex- pronoun root, -u[m] ACC
              ending, -c deictic)
              > ze : it from Oscan ídík (íd- 'it' -ík deictic)
              > cu : with from Oscan kúm
              >
              > tangine: from Oscan accusative, tanginím
              > moiegu: from Oscan accusative, múíníkam
              >
              > I'm not sure why I decided that Oscan sounds somewhat like
              Brazil Portuguese, but it sounded nice :-)
              >
              > Elliott

              Wow! A cople questions:

              * Could we perhaps get a description of the sound changes
              and the sound system of New Oscan?
              * What is the sound value of _ç_ and _z_ and of _c g_ in
              various positions?
              * Is the grammar (very) different from that of Romance natlangs?
              * Where is it spoken? Some scholars used to think that at least
              some Ibero-Romance had a marked Oscan substrate, so it may in
              fact be spoken there.

              On the rather stubby WP page on Oscan someone has written:

              "Short u generally remains unchanged. After t, d, n, the sound
              becomes that of iu. Long /u:/ generally remains unchanged.
              It may have changed to an /i:/ sound for final syllables."

              To me this seems to imply that Oscan *u(:) was fronted.
              What's your take on that? Not meaning to upset your
              creativity, just a reflection. There are enough Rom-
              natlangs/dialects which front and even unround and/or
              diphthongize Latin /u:/. When I sketched on a Franco-
              Greek bogolang /y/ was something of an embarrasment,
              since French has /u:/ > /y/ but (early) Koiné had
              both /u:/ and /y(:)/. Actually I think I'll post
              something on this 'Galliotic'!

              /BP 8^)>
              --
              Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
              à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
              ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
              c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
            • Carl Edlund Anderson
              ... I once thought about trying to do some proper re-conned Oscan in aid of a historical novel concept set in early Paestum -- though I never did anything with
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
                On 02 Feb 2010, at 09:39, Padraic Brown wrote:
                > --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Capsicum <thomas@...> wrote:
                >> I've been waiting long for an Oscan conlang.
                >
                > Oscan is fun and makes a neat alternative to Latin for Italic
                > conlangs. I never got any further than one short text with an Oscan-
                > inspired conlang. I should work on it again some time.

                I once thought about trying to do some proper re-conned Oscan in aid
                of a historical novel concept set in early Paestum -- though I never
                did anything with the idea, as I didn't feel I really knew enough
                proper historical and archaeological detail to make it fly!

                I do incorporate some Oscan influence in one of my "alternative
                Italic" conlangs, Ausonic. It's a "P-Italic" dialect, for example,
                and I nicked some bits of Oscan vocabulary (from Buck's old book, of
                which I have the cheap modern reprint :)) as well.

                Cheers,
                Carl

                --
                Carl Edlund Anderson
                http://www.carlaz.com/
              • Elliott Lash
                ... and the sound system of New Oscan? Difficult since it exists as one sentence at the moment. Basically, the sound system is as follows: Dental stops: /t/,
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
                  >>> Wow! A cople questions:

                  >>> * Could we perhaps get a description of the sound changes
                  and the sound system of New Oscan?
                  Difficult since it exists as one sentence at the moment.
                  Basically, the sound system is as follows:

                  Dental stops: /t/, /d/
                  The stop /t/ has the allophone /tS/ before a front vowel. /d/ has the allophone /dZ/ before a front vowel.
                  Labial stops: /p/, /b/
                  Velar stops: /g/, /k/ <c>
                  Fricatives: /Z/ <g+FRONT vowel>, /S/ <ç>, /s/, /z/, /v
                  The fricative /s/ has the allophone /S/ at the end of the word and /z/ in the middle of the word.
                  Nasals: /m/, /n/, /N/
                  At the end of the word or before a consonant, /n/ is dropped and the preceding vowel is nasalized.
                  Vowels: /a/, /i/ /o/, /u/, /e/
                  At the end of the word only /u/ or /i/ are found, unless the vowel is stressed. (Note that this means in my previous post <tangine> should be pronounced /ta~Zini/).
                  Diphthongs: /oi/, /ai/, /ei/, /ou/, /au/, /eu/
                  liquids /l/ /r/
                  -----
                  Sound changes:
                  /g/ > /Z/ before front vowels, otherwise stays.
                  tangin- /tangin/ > /ta~Zin/
                  /k/ > /S/ before front vowels, otherwise stays.
                  kerssnú > /Sesnu/
                  /ks/ > /S/ everywhere.
                  *exusc > /Sos/
                  Final consonants are lost:
                  patir > /padi/
                  Intervocalic voiceless consonants are voiced:
                  touto > /todu/
                  High vowels are lowered before consonant clusters (except for nasal + consonant)
                  iusc > /Zos/
                  I think that's all I am going say at the moment. I'm still working it out.
                  In monosyllables, final nasals nasals the vowels and then drop:
                  pún > /pu~/

                  Nasals drop intervocalically, and diphthongize preceding vowels. This only happens if the first vowel
                  is lower than the second:
                  múiníka- > /mojegu/

                  >>> * What is the sound value of _ç_ and _z_ and of _c g_ in
                  various positions?
                  This has been answered above.

                  * Is the grammar (very) different from that of Romance natlangs?
                  Not terribly different. There are pre-verbal clitic pronouns. See my sentence that I posted: ze patesens.
                  The case system has broken down and there are now only two cases: nominative and everything else.
                  It has predominately SVO word order.
                  It has indicative and subjunctive moods. It has periphrastic passives. It has present, imperfect, future and past tense. It also has a future perfect tense, but no pluperfect (at least morphologically). It has an imperative as well and an infinitive.
                  This may change as I think about it more... I think at some point there will be some Greek influence.
                  >>> * Where is it spoken? Some scholars used to think that at least
                  some Ibero-Romance had a marked Oscan substrate, so it may in
                  fact be spoken there.
                  Yes, that is true. I think it will be spoken across southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia and the Balearics. Perhaps also Catalonia.
                  >>> On the rather stubby WP page on Oscan someone has written:

                  >>>> "Short u generally remains unchanged. After t, d, n, the sound
                  becomes that of iu. Long /u:/ generally remains unchanged.
                  It may have changed to an /i:/ sound for final syllables."

                  >>>> To me this seems to imply that Oscan *u(:) was fronted.
                  What's your take on that? Not meaning to upset your
                  creativity, just a reflection.
                  Actually, I take this as indicating palatalization of /t/ /d/ /n/ before /u/. This is just like British pronunciation of <tune> as more like /tjun/.
                  In New Oscan this /t/ > /tS/, /d/ > /dZ/ and /n/ goes to /nj/ in this environment (unless the vowel preceding it is low and then it becomes /j/.
                  So for example, tiurrí > ciurre /tSurri/ 'tower'.
                  Elliott




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Elliott Lash
                  Second New Oscan sentence: pun ços cesturis censo-eiren ça toda Bansen whenthecensors assess.future-3P the.F people Bansu-in
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 2, 2010
                    Second New Oscan sentence:

                    pun ços cesturis censo-eiren ça toda Bansen
                    whenthecensors assess.future-3P the.F people Bansu-in
                    /pu~ So(S) Ses`turiS Se~soeire~ Sa `todu as `Ba~ze~/
                    'When the censors assess the people at Bantia'

                    This is from Old Oscan:

                    pon censtur Bansae tautam censazet.

                    Explanation:
                    pon (in Latin spelling) = pun (in Oscan alphabet).

                    ços is the new definite article made from the demonstrative exo-. The plural was probably *exusc This would become /Sos/, with loss of the unstressed vowel (I am presuming that the initial was unstressed. If it wasn't, it became so). Also, the loss of the final -c happened, but only after the lowering of the vowel in the context of a consonant cluster.

                    cesturis = censtur. This r-stem in Old Oscan did not differentiate between singular and plural (like many consonant stems in Oscan, I gather). Anyway, an i-stem ending was extended to this case, since consonant and i-stems were very close in Old Oscan. Incidentally, this shows that final -s was not lost unlike other consonants.

                    censo-eiren = censaum herie[n]t 'they want to assess'. Here, the Old Oscan censaze[n]t was replaced with a periphrastic construction with the verb heri- plus the infinitive, this later became fused together.

                    ça = exa[m]c. This feminine form of the article was originally the accusative form but it was later generalized to all contexts. The final <a> is actually pronounced /a/ here since it is stressed (or at least was at one point).

                    toda = tautam. This is obvious.

                    Bansen = Bansae + en This is the Old Oscan Locative case plus a post position -en, which fused to create a new locative case ending in -en. Thus, I must revise my earlier statement that Oscan has only two cases. Apparently now it has three: nominative, accusative/genitive and locative/dative.


                    Here is a sample verb paradigm:

                    censon 'to assess' /Se~zo~/

                    censu censaus
                    censas censade[s]
                    censa censan

                    /Se~zu/ /Se~zauS/
                    /Se~zuS/ /Se~zadZi(S)/
                    /Se~zu/ /Se~za~/

                    The 1st and 2nd plural endings are conjectures. They are from -mus and -tes respectively.

                    - Elliott




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Benct Philip Jonsson
                    ... But English /ju/ spelled _u_ corresponds to the Middle English rendering of French /y/, which may either originally have been borrowed as [y] or replaced
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 3, 2010
                      On 2010-02-02 Elliott Lash wrote:
                      > >>> On the rather stubby WP page on Oscan someone has
                      > written:
                      >
                      > >>>> >>>> "Short u generally remains unchanged. After t,
                      > d, n, the sound
                      > becomes that of iu. Long /u:/ generally remains unchanged.
                      > It may have changed to an /i:/ sound for final syllables."
                      >
                      > >>>> >>>> To me this seems to imply that Oscan *u(:) was
                      > fronted.
                      > What's your take on that? Not meaning to upset your
                      > creativity, just a reflection.

                      > Actually, I take this as indicating palatalization of /t/
                      > /d/ /n/ before /u/. This is just like British
                      > pronunciation of <tune> as more like /tjun/.
                      > In New Oscan this /t/ > /tS/, /d/ > /dZ/ and /n/ goes to
                      > /nj/ in this environment (unless the vowel preceding it
                      > is low and then it becomes /j/.
                      > So for example, tiurrí > ciurre /tSurri/ 'tower'.

                      But English /ju/ spelled _u_ corresponds to the Middle
                      English rendering of French /y/, which may either originally
                      have been borrowed as [y] or replaced by ME /iu/ as the
                      closest native equivalent of French /y/ already at the
                      time of borrowing; i.e. there was a palatal segment
                      -- a diphthong starting in a front vowel or even a
                      front rounded monophthong -- after the /t d n/, which
                      would be a requirement for palatalization: only something
                      palatal can cause palatalization, after all! Which is
                      not to say that rounded front vowels can't become
                      back vowels again: at least /y/ can break into /iu/,
                      which is what I think happened in pre-Oscan. Cf.
                      also Old English _cyrice_ > _church_, though that is
                      probably [Y] becoming [U] rather than [y] becoming [u]:
                      those lax high vowels are usually a bit centralized,
                      which I think would be a requirement for 'backing'.
                      The tense high front position is the 'sink' towards
                      which all 'sliding' in the vowel space goes. The
                      only way a tense high front vowel may change
                      into something else is probably diphthongization
                      of some kind. This is because of the anatomy of the
                      mouth and the motor dynamics of the tongue.
                      I suspect Oscan _u_ was [y] or [u\], and _ú_ was [u].
                      Your run-of-the-mill fronting of /u/ with subsequent
                      rising of /o/ as in Greek, Welsh, Swedish, French and
                      probably many more langauges.

                      /BP
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