Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Iermánsc 1.0

Expand Messages
  • thedudeatx
    Hi all, I ve committed a first draft of Iermánsc, an alt-historical Romance altang spoken in what we know as Bavaria and Austria. Any feedback would be
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 4, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi all,

      I've committed a first draft of Iermánsc, an alt-historical Romance
      altang spoken in what we know as Bavaria and Austria. Any feedback
      would be appreciated. Thanks

      Dale
    • Scotto Hlad
      Can you provide a link so that we can look at it? From: romconlang@yahoogroups.com [mailto:romconlang@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thedudeatx Sent: Thursday,
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 4, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Can you provide a link so that we can look at it?



        From: romconlang@yahoogroups.com [mailto:romconlang@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of thedudeatx
        Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:24 PM
        To: romconlang@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [romconlang] Iermánsc 1.0



        Hi all,

        I've committed a first draft of Iermánsc, an alt-historical Romance
        altang spoken in what we know as Bavaria and Austria. Any feedback
        would be appreciated. Thanks

        Dale





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thedudeatx
        Sorry, I added it to the links section of this group. It s http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Iermansc Thanks
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Sorry, I added it to the links section of this group. It's

          http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Iermansc

          Thanks

          --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, "Scotto Hlad" <scott.hlad@...> wrote:
          >
          > Can you provide a link so that we can look at it?
          >
          >
          >
          > From: romconlang@yahoogroups.com [mailto:romconlang@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of thedudeatx
          > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:24 PM
          > To: romconlang@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [romconlang] Iermánsc 1.0
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi all,
          >
          > I've committed a first draft of Iermánsc, an alt-historical Romance
          > altang spoken in what we know as Bavaria and Austria. Any feedback
          > would be appreciated. Thanks
          >
          > Dale
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Henrik Theiling
          ... I like it! Especially the irregularities, the syncope of penultimate when a syllable is added to a bisyllabic stem (feels like Russian, and German has
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 9, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            thedudeatx writes:
            >...
            > http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Iermansc

            I like it! Especially the irregularities, the syncope of penultimate
            when a syllable is added to a bisyllabic stem (feels like Russian, and
            German has that, too), and the vowel shifts.

            Nice work!

            **Henrik
          • Benct Philip Jonsson
            ... I like those features too, and the _sc/sch_ orthography. There must have been Anglo-Saxon missionaries involved when the orthography was established ;-)
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 9, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Henrik Theiling skrev:
              > thedudeatx writes:
              >> ...
              >> http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Iermansc
              >
              > I like it! Especially the irregularities, the syncope of penultimate
              > when a syllable is added to a bisyllabic stem (feels like Russian, and
              > German has that, too), and the vowel shifts.
              >

              I like those features too, and the _sc/sch_
              orthography. There must have been Anglo-Saxon
              missionaries involved when the orthography
              was established ;-) The articles are reminicent
              of Rhodrese:

              un huom 'a man'
              el huom 'the man'
              eun huem 'some men'
              il huem 'the men'

              na feme 'a woman'
              la feme 'the woman'
              eun fim 'some women'
              il fim 'the women'

              Rhodrese also has quite a few forms
              of fused preposition and article, as
              well as one fused conjunction _e_ (ET)
              and article:

              de: dun del dena della deun dil
              a: aun al ana alla en ail
              en: nun nel nona nella neun nil
              por: pon pol pona polla peun pil
              au: run rel auna aulla reun ril
              e: edun edel ena ella edeun edil

              where _ll_ is /l\`/

              The contracted forms of _au_ (APUD) have their
              explanation in the fact that this preposition
              in Old Rhodrese was _aur_ before a word beginning
              with a vowel. This alternation is practically
              obsolete elsewhere, as even personal names are used
              with the article in modern Rhodrese. Similar
              considerations apply to _ed_, the prevocalic
              form of _e_.

              /BP 8^)>
              --
              Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
              à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
              ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
              c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
            • thedudeatx
              ... Yeah, i was definitely going for a German feel with that. ... My thinking on that is because of SC /ʃ/, but SCH /ʃk/. of course there s also X
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 12, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...> wrote:
                >
                > Henrik Theiling skrev:
                > > thedudeatx writes:
                > >> ...
                > >> http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Iermansc
                > >
                > > I like it! Especially the irregularities, the syncope of penultimate
                > > when a syllable is added to a bisyllabic stem (feels like Russian, and
                > > German has that, too), and the vowel shifts.

                Yeah, i was definitely going for a German feel with that.

                > >
                >
                > I like those features too, and the _sc/sch_
                > orthography. There must have been Anglo-Saxon
                > missionaries involved when the orthography
                > was established ;-)

                My thinking on that is because of SC > /ʃ/, but SCH > /ʃk/. of course
                there's also X > /ʃ/, so that's an alternative possibility. i didn't
                want the orthography to be too German-looking, seeing as it should
                more closely resemble French or Italian...

                > The articles are reminicent
                > of Rhodrese:
                >
                > un huom 'a man'
                > el huom 'the man'
                > eun huem 'some men'
                > il huem 'the men'
                >
                > na feme 'a woman'
                > la feme 'the woman'
                > eun fim 'some women'
                > il fim 'the women'
                >

                Quite similar! is Rh. eun < UNI? like Ie. ne?

                > Rhodrese also has quite a few forms
                > of fused preposition and article, as
                > well as one fused conjunction _e_ (ET)
                > and article:
                >
                > de: dun del dena della deun dil
                > a: aun al ana alla en ail
                > en: nun nel nona nella neun nil
                > por: pon pol pona polla peun pil
                > au: run rel auna aulla reun ril
                > e: edun edel ena ella edeun edil
                >
                > where _ll_ is /l\`/
                >
                > The contracted forms of _au_ (APUD) have their
                > explanation in the fact that this preposition
                > in Old Rhodrese was _aur_ before a word beginning
                > with a vowel. This alternation is practically
                > obsolete elsewhere, as even personal names are used
                > with the article in modern Rhodrese. Similar
                > considerations apply to _ed_, the prevocalic
                > form of _e_.
                >
                > /BP 8^)>
                > --
                > Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
                > à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
                > ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
                > c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
                >
              • Benct Philip Jonsson
                Re: [romconlang] Re: Iermánsc 1.0 bpj@melroch.se romconlang@yahoogroups.com ... Yeah I thought about _x_ for /S/ too. Old and Middle Rhodrese used that
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 14, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  "Re: [romconlang] Re: Iermánsc 1.0" bpj@...
                  romconlang@yahoogroups.com

                  thedudeatx skrev:
                  > --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip
                  > Jonsson <bpj@...> wrote:
                  >> Henrik Theiling skrev:
                  >>> thedudeatx writes:
                  >>>> ... http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Iermansc
                  >>> I like it! Especially the irregularities, the
                  >>> syncope of penultimate when a syllable is
                  >>> added to a bisyllabic stem (feels like
                  >>> Russian, and German has that, too), and the
                  >>> vowel shifts.
                  >
                  > Yeah, i was definitely going for a German feel
                  > with that.
                  >
                  >> I like those features too, and the _sc/sch_
                  >> orthography. There must have been Anglo-Saxon
                  >> missionaries involved when the orthography was
                  >> established ;-)
                  >
                  > My thinking on that is because of SC > /ʃ/,
                  > but SCH > /ʃk/. of course there's also X >
                  > /ʃ/, so that's an alternative possibility.
                  > i didn't want the orthography to be too German-
                  > looking, seeing as it should more closely
                  > resemble French or Italian...

                  Yeah I thought about _x_ for /S/ too. Old and
                  Middle Rhodrese used that spelling since Rh. had
                  the soundchange VL /ks/ > /sk/ and then /sk/ > /S/
                  before front vowels. A 16th century grammarian
                  named Grieur (< GREGORIUS)
                  succeded in having _x_ for /S/ replaced by _sç_,
                  since he thought that replacing _x_ with _cs_ in
                  more recent Latin and Greek loans was a
                  "perbarbarica scriptura". However the spelling
                  _tx_ for /tS/ stuck and continues to this
                  day despite Grieur's attempt to have it
                  replaced by t-cedilla, which simply hadn't any
                  tradition at all behind it. This _tx_ is quite
                  common since Latin CT, soft CC and some other
                  combinations regularly become /tS/, so ECCE HANC
                  NOCTEM > _txanotx_ 'tonight' (French _ça nuit_),
                  CALCIARE > _caltxiar_ etc. In the universe where
                  Rhodrese is spoken the spelling systems of
                  Romand (OTL aka Arpitan/Franco-Provencal,
                  in western Switzerland) and Romantx (OTL Romantsch/
                  Rhaeto-Romance in central/eastern Switzerland)
                  are directly and indirectly influenced by
                  Rhodrese, so they also use the _x_ /S/ and _tx_ /tS/.

                  However in Old English inherited vocabulary
                  _sc_ (< West Germanic *sk) was /S/ in all
                  positions, and since it is well known that
                  English missionaries were rather ubiquitous in
                  Greater Germany in Merovingian and Carolingian
                  times I can well imagine Iermánsc picking up
                  _sc_ /S/ and _sch_ /Sk/ under such an influence.

                  (BTW how common is /Sk/ for _sk_ among German speakers?
                  I always found it kind of funny when my mother
                  says 'schkelett' "skeleton" even in Swedish! :-)

                  >> The articles are reminicent of Rhodrese:
                  >>
                  >> un huom 'a man' el huom 'the man' eun huem
                  >> 'some men' il huem 'the men'
                  >>
                  >> na feme 'a woman' la feme 'the woman' eun fim
                  >> 'some women' il fim 'the women'
                  >>
                  >
                  > Quite similar! is Rh. eun < UNI? like Ie. ne?

                  Yes. Rhodrese has i-umlaut rather like German
                  although later un-German-like sound changes
                  rather obscure the results:

                  ### Rhodrese i-umlaut

                  Rh. VL Old Rh. Mdn Rh.
                  ---------- ---------- ----------
                  e i i
                  ei (e:) i i
                  ie (E:) i i
                  a e e
                  ae (a:>&@) ea /E@/ ie
                  u: iu /y/ eu /y/
                  ou (o:) eu /2y/ eu /y/
                  o oe /2/ e
                  uo (O:) ue /y2/ ue /2/

                  The long Vulgar Latin vowels resulted from
                  early Vulgar Latin vowels in open stressed
                  syllables quite like in French or Italian.
                  I've tabularized the whole thing at

                  <http://wiki.frath.net/User:Melroch/Vulgar_Latin>

                  The plural of nouns and adjectives and the second
                  person singular present of verbs is normally marked
                  by i-umlaut only, which makes the article extremely
                  important for sorting out number and gender (although
                  there is no gender in the plural article), hence
                  the survival of the plural indefinite article.

                  Rhodrese also has a-umlaut which caused i > e
                  and u > o and shows up e.g. in *POR‑UNA > pona,
                  and u-umlaut which caused a > o and a: > oa > ua
                  and shows up mostly in the first person singular
                  present of verbs, e.g. AMO > huam, cf. AMAS > hiem,
                  AMAT > hiámet.

                  /BP 8^)>
                  --
                  Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
                  à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
                  ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
                  c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.