Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Romlang problem in Terkunan

Expand Messages
  • theiling@absint.com
    Hello! A small problem arose concerning the sound shifts of Terkunan: I don t like the sound of -/ls/ at the end of words but it frequently occurs due to a
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 7, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello!

      A small problem arose concerning the sound shifts of Terkunan: I don't
      like the sound of -/ls/ at the end of words but it frequently occurs
      due to a regularised plural ending -/s/. Since the pronouns are
      regular, too, I constantly see |ilz| /ils/ 'they'.

      Any idea what to do about this? Terkunan is meant to be a typical
      romlang, but there is no trace of an l > u shift and I don't want one,
      because I don't like the diphthongs that will arise from that. There
      are quite frequent r <> l switches, however, but currently, the
      language tends towards -l at ends of words (e.g. arbul 'tree'). For
      polysyllabic words, anyway. I thought about having -l > -r in
      monosyllabics and switching the overall tendencies for l/r. It would
      affect a lot of things:

      (Current words are given in parens:)

      ILLE > (il) ir 'he,she,it' => irz 'they'
      CAELUM > (kel) ker 'heaven,sky' => kerz 'heavens, skies'
      SOL > (sul) sur 'sun'
      MILLE > (mil) mir 'thousand'
      NULLUM > (nul) nur 'zero'
      MALUM > (mal) mar 'bad' == mar 'ocean'

      And also:

      ARBOREM > (arbul) albur 'tree'
      MANTELUM > (mantil) mantir 'cape, cloak'

      Maybe even (less likely due to mixed original distribution of l and r):
      BOREALEM > (boral) bolar 'northern'

      I am not really content with this, especially the monosyllabics are
      not what I dream of.

      What other shifts of -l would be feasible? Any ideas? Could I
      handle -/ls/ specially? The -/l/ itself I find quite nice.

      **Henrik
    • old_astrologer
      ... The change of -l- -r- tends to occur between vowels, and -r to -l finally. In Korean, where [l] and [r] are allophones, the [l] is syllable final. In
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 7, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, theiling@... wrote:
        >I don't like the sound of -/ls/ at the end of words
        > ... there is no trace of an l > u shift and I don't want one
        > I thought about having -l > -r in monosyllabics

        The change of -l- > -r- tends to occur between vowels, and -r to -l
        finally. In Korean, where [l] and [r] are allophones, the [l] is
        syllable final. In Puerto Rico, [l] occurs for /r/ at the end of the
        syllable, giving [pwelto].

        An alternative would be assimilation. Greek turned -ls- (e.g.
        *estelsa) into -ll- (Lesbian estella) or -l- with a long vowel (Attic
        esteila), so words in -l could remain unchanged in the plural. I can
        imagine a change -ls > -ss > -s as well.

        So arbul with plural arbul or arbus? What do you think?

        David
      • Henrik Theiling
        Hi! ... Ah, that s funny, Sicilian seems to do something in the other way, e.g., it has vurkanu
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 7, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi!

          old_astrologer writes:
          > --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, theiling@... wrote:
          > >I don't like the sound of -/ls/ at the end of words
          > > ... there is no trace of an l > u shift and I don't want one
          > > I thought about having -l > -r in monosyllabics
          >
          > The change of -l- > -r- tends to occur between vowels, and -r to -l
          > finally. In Korean, where [l] and [r] are allophones, the [l] is
          > syllable final. In Puerto Rico, [l] occurs for /r/ at the end of the
          > syllable, giving [pwelto].

          Ah, that's funny, Sicilian seems to do something in the other way,
          e.g., it has vurkanu < VOLCANUM. A shift that Terkunan shares:
          'vurkan'.

          I really like these l <> r shifts. :-)

          > An alternative would be assimilation. Greek turned -ls- (e.g.
          > *estelsa) into -ll- (Lesbian estella) or -l- with a long vowel (Attic
          > esteila), so words in -l could remain unchanged in the plural. I can
          > imagine a change -ls > -ss > -s as well.

          Interesting. On the Conlang list, I also received the suggestion to
          lengthen the vowel. Both lengthenings look nice. Vowel lengthening
          would probably lead to more irregular forms, since long vowels shift
          differently from short ones.

          > So arbul with plural arbul or arbus? What do you think?

          I like it and I will consider it.

          With vowel length, we'd get kel 'heaven' > kiz 'heavens'. With
          consonant length, kel > kez.

          **Henrik
        • James Campbell
          ... I must admit, I immediately thought of French cheval chevaux, chenal chenaux, normal normaux and so on. Not as a specific suggestion, but as an
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 8, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Henrik skrev:

            > What other shifts of -l would be feasible? Any ideas? Could I
            > handle -/ls/ specially? The -/l/ itself I find quite nice.

            I must admit, I immediately thought of French cheval>chevaux,
            chenal>chenaux, normal>normaux and so on. Not as a specific suggestion, but
            as an illustration that you really could handle -/ls/ as a special case.
            David's suggestion of pluralising -ul as -us definitely appeals.

            Best

            James/Yacqueu

            -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
            James Campbell james@... www.zolid.com
            Boring, but a cool boring.
            -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
          • spad0103
            ... don t ... occurs ... I would reduce the -ls in -is /js/, /jz/ or even -i /j/ like it is done in Friulian (a Rhaeto-romance language). The /j/ even turns
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 1, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, theiling@... wrote:
              > A small problem arose concerning the sound shifts of Terkunan: I
              don't
              > like the sound of -/ls/ at the end of words but it frequently
              occurs
              > due to a regularised plural ending -/s/.

              I would reduce the -ls in -is /js/, /jz/ or even -i /j/ like it is
              done in Friulian (a Rhaeto-romance language). The /j/ even turns
              naturally to /i/ after a vowel like u (where the u is
              pronounced /w/).

              > ILLE > (il) ir 'he,she,it' => irz 'they'
              il => is or i ("il, i" is used in Friulian, but it means "the")
              > CAELUM > (kel) ker 'heaven,sky' => kerz 'heavens, skies'
              kel => keis or kei
              > SOL > (sul) sur 'sun'
              sul => suis or sui ("ui" can be pronounced /uj/ or /wi/ as you
              prefer)
              > ARBOREM > (arbul) albur 'tree'
              arbul => arbuis or arbui <- the same word is used in Friulian (un
              arbul, arbui /arbwi/)

              I hope it can help you...
            • Henrik Theiling
              Hi! ... Although I will probably not shift ls to is or i, you did help me -- I did not know the Friulian forms and now I know them, that s a very good thing!
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi!

                spad0103 writes:
                > --- In romconlang@yahoogroups.com, theiling@... wrote:
                > > A small problem arose concerning the sound shifts of Terkunan: I
                > don't
                > > like the sound of -/ls/ at the end of words but it frequently
                > occurs
                > > due to a regularised plural ending -/s/.
                >
                > I would reduce the -ls in -is /js/, /jz/ or even -i /j/ like it is
                > done in Friulian (a Rhaeto-romance language). The /j/ even turns
                > naturally to /i/ after a vowel like u (where the u is
                > pronounced /w/).
                >
                > > ILLE > (il) ir 'he,she,it' => irz 'they'
                > il => is or i ("il, i" is used in Friulian, but it means "the")
                > > CAELUM > (kel) ker 'heaven,sky' => kerz 'heavens, skies'
                > kel => keis or kei
                > > SOL > (sul) sur 'sun'
                > sul => suis or sui ("ui" can be pronounced /uj/ or /wi/ as you
                > prefer)
                > > ARBOREM > (arbul) albur 'tree'
                > arbul => arbuis or arbui <- the same word is used in Friulian (un
                > arbul, arbui /arbwi/)
                >
                > I hope it can help you...

                Although I will probably not shift ls to is or i, you did help me -- I
                did not know the Friulian forms and now I know them, that's a very
                good thing! :-) And I am still not satisfied with my current system,
                since it is partially irregular which seems to annoy me more than I
                thought...

                I already checked the pronouns in many Romance natlangs to see whether
                anything is suited better that my current _il_. So to revive this thread,
                I would like ask for more help: what 3rd person pronouns can you think
                of in Romance? It should fulfil the following constraints:

                - plural = singular + /s/ without any irregular shifts
                - no geminates, so no singular in -s
                - no typical epenthetic consonants, so no singular
                in -l, -n, -r.
                - both singular and plural monosyllabic

                Maybe a little brainstorming will help me again. :-)

                **Henrik
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.