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Re: [romconlang] Pronunciation of gu- (for Gmc w) in Romance?

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  • Eric Christopherson
    ... I don t know about the dates, but I just read something I didn t know (in John McWhorter s _The Power of Babel_): that Norman French had / w/ where
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 3 2:16 PM
      On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:17 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:

      > On 08/12/2006 03:13, Eric Christopherson wrote:
      >> On Dec 6, 2006, at 10:53 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
      >>> What was the likely original pronunciation of gu-, representing
      >>> borrowed
      >>> Germanic w-, in Romance and how did it develop? Was it originally
      >>> something like /gw/, later developing to /g/, or was it simply /g/
      >>> from
      >>> the beginning?
      >>
      >> Originally it would have been /gw/, which might have been pronounced
      >> [Gw] depending on time and place. I'm not sure why it wasn't borrowed
      >> simply as /w/; perhaps because the Latin /w/ had already shifted in
      >> most cases to /v/, so there were no initial /w/s. As for why a velar
      >> stop rather than some other kind, it's probably because /w/ is
      >> labiovelar.
      >
      > Thanks :) Is there any sense on the dates (different in different
      > places?) for shifts from /gw/ or /Gw/ to plain /g/?

      I don't know about the dates, but I just read something I didn't know
      (in John McWhorter's _The Power of Babel_): that Norman French had /
      w/ where Parisian French had /gw/ -- which is why we have doublets
      such as <guarantee> and <warranty>.
    • Pedro Aguiar
      Interestingly, the same happened when Portuguese missionaries created the Lingua Franca in 16th-18th century Brazil. They found the /w/ semivowel in native
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 3 3:07 PM
        Interestingly, the same happened when Portuguese missionaries created the
        Lingua Franca in 16th-18th century Brazil. They found the /w/ semivowel in
        native Tupi language, but since it does not exist in Portuguese, the sound
        was written (and then pronounced) as /gw/ (like Wanãbara/Guanabara,
        warana/guaraná). Lately, ethnologues and linguists have tried to restore
        original pronunciation of Tupi with a more accurate writing standard, even
        suggesting new alphabets (though there's no universally accepted system
        yet).

        Notice difference with other native American languages like Quechua, where
        transliteration into Castillian led to /w/ written as "hu"
        (Tawantinsuyu/Tahuantinsuyu, Tiwanaku/Tihuanaco).



        2007/1/3, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>:
        >
        > On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:17 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
        >
        > > On 08/12/2006 03:13, Eric Christopherson wrote:
        > >> On Dec 6, 2006, at 10:53 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
        > >>> What was the likely original pronunciation of gu-, representing
        > >>> borrowed
        > >>> Germanic w-, in Romance and how did it develop? Was it originally
        > >>> something like /gw/, later developing to /g/, or was it simply /g/
        > >>> from
        > >>> the beginning?
        > >>
        > >> Originally it would have been /gw/, which might have been pronounced
        > >> [Gw] depending on time and place. I'm not sure why it wasn't borrowed
        > >> simply as /w/; perhaps because the Latin /w/ had already shifted in
        > >> most cases to /v/, so there were no initial /w/s. As for why a velar
        > >> stop rather than some other kind, it's probably because /w/ is
        > >> labiovelar.
        > >
        > > Thanks :) Is there any sense on the dates (different in different
        > > places?) for shifts from /gw/ or /Gw/ to plain /g/?
        >
        > I don't know about the dates, but I just read something I didn't know
        > (in John McWhorter's _The Power of Babel_): that Norman French had /
        > w/ where Parisian French had /gw/ -- which is why we have doublets
        > such as <guarantee> and <warranty>.
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Henrik Theiling
        Hi! ... I like Castillian romanisation very much. One of the offspring languages from my lexicon project (S22) will use phonotactics and romanisation similar
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 4 6:29 AM
          Hi!

          Pedro Aguiar writes:
          >...
          > Notice difference with other native American languages like Quechua, where
          > transliteration into Castillian led to /w/ written as "hu"
          > (Tawantinsuyu/Tahuantinsuyu, Tiwanaku/Tihuanaco).

          I like Castillian romanisation very much. One of the offspring
          languages from my lexicon project (S22) will use phonotactics and
          romanisation similar to Náhuatl. It will be an oligosynthetic
          language. Some sample words (which will change -- I'm currently
          experimenting):

          sphere mitK)its)otK) mitlitzotl
          spouse kiltS)itK)amason quilchitlamazon
          state joltatK) yoltatl
          stone totK)itS)in totlichin
          sweet jowanin yohuanin
          that/yonder wasajatK) huazayatl

          **Henrik
        • Melroch 'Aestan
          Sorry for late response. I ve been swamped in Real World stuff. ... In both late Latin and Portuguese the probable reason was that the intervocalic allophone
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 15 8:42 AM
            Sorry for late response. I've been swamped in Real World
            stuff.

            Pedro Aguiar skrev:
            > Interestingly, the same happened when Portuguese
            > missionaries created the Lingua Franca in 16th-18th
            > century Brazil. They found the /w/ semivowel in native
            > Tupi language, but since it does not exist in Portuguese,
            > the sound was written (and then pronounced) as /gw/ (like
            > Wanãbara/Guanabara, warana/guaraná). Lately, ethnologues
            > and linguists have tried to restore original pronunciation
            > of Tupi with a more accurate writing standard, even
            > suggesting new alphabets (though there's no universally
            > accepted system yet).

            In both late Latin and Portuguese the probable reason was
            that the intervocalic allophone of /gw/, namely [Gw] was the
            phoneetically closest thing to [w] found in the language.
            Cf. the dialectal pronunciation of Spanish where _agua_ is
            in fact ['awa]! It is not entirely clear where late Latin
            had acquired intervocalic /gw/, since in classical Latin
            /gw/ was found only in the combination /ngw/, but perhaps
            original intervocalic _qu_ had already gone through > gw >
            Gw > w in some areas/styles/contexts/words or -- most likely
            -- in fast speech. However it is significant that Gothic
            _wulfs_ simply became _ulfus_ in Latin (_Athaulfus_ <
            _Aþawulfs_ etc.)

            > Notice difference with other native American languages
            > like Quechua, where transliteration into Castillian led to
            > /w/ written as "hu" (Tawantinsuyu/Tahuantinsuyu,
            > Tiwanaku/Tihuanaco).
            >

            There was some precedence in Spanish spelling, with words
            like _huevo_ which had acquired an _h_ to signal that the
            _u_ should be pronounced [w] and not [v] in medieval
            spelling/pronunciation. There were no parallel cases in
            Portuguese, which hadn't gone through the O > uo > ue
            sound change.
            --

            /BP 8^)
            --
            Benct Philip Jonsson
            mailto:melrochX@... (delete X!)
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "If a language is a dialect with an army and a navy,
            of what language, pray, is Basque a dialect?" (R.A.B.)
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