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invisibility

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  • SPATTERS01@cc.curtin.edu.au
    For those of you who are not getting a whole lot out of this increacingly technical discussion on programming (not that i m complaining or anything -- i m
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 31, 1994
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      For those of you who are not getting a whole lot out of this
      increacingly technical discussion on programming (not that i'm
      complaining or anything -- i'm looking forward to seeing the
      finished product as much as anyone), here's a new thread:

      When does an invisible magic user become visible?

      For years we've made any form of attack (ie, melee, missile, thrown,
      base, elemental etc.) sufficient to make an invisible character visible,
      the reasoning being that otherwise invisible characters become too
      powerful and those without invisibility become sitting ducks.

      However, as we are currently in the process on reworking the combat
      round structure, we're rethinking this aspect as well.

      How do other groups use this rule? S.L. states that the person remains
      invisible unless they make a violent movement (ie an attack, or being
      struck), but that does make for some pretty powerful abuses of
      invisibility.

      Just my $0.02.


      Andrew.
    • cdavies@cnsltd.co.uk
      I run invisiblity as destroyed by the following. A violent blow by the mage. (ie Melee, Thrown weapons). A violnet blow on the mage. (Being hit by someone
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 2, 1994
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        I run invisiblity as destroyed by the following.
        A violent blow by the mage. (ie Melee, Thrown weapons).
        A violnet blow on the mage. (Being hit by someone else).
        A violent action. (Some of the spells are ruled by me to have violent actions.
        These are mainly offensive spells which are instantaneous.
        An example of such a spell is Dark Sleep.

        Yes, invisiblity is very powerful. Before I had the last rule.
        A single invisible took took out the whole party. (He was of the same
        level as the party and had some luck. But still...)

        Hope this helps


        Chris
      • Brian
        ... I try to rule that any violent action ( including running/ jumping ) will break the invisibility, in addition to any attack ( be it a spell or not ). In
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 2, 1994
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          > When does an invisible magic user become visible?
          >
          I try to rule that any violent action ( including running/
          jumping ) will break the invisibility, in addition to any
          attack ( be it a spell or not ). In recent times, my group
          has gone off invisibility all together and the lists have
          fallen into disuse - even players can get fed up with the
          abuse of the system! Also I think that invisibility doesn't
          provide total lack of visual detectability, but creates a haze
          that can be see if a person knows what to look for, and also
          creates a sort of shadow. This cuts down on some of the
          abuses - in fact isn't it in one of the rule books ( somewhere ).
          Brian
        • Silvan Kaiser
          SPATTERS01@cc.curtin.edu.au ... I think you should keep the old rules, since invisibility is REALLY powerful unless your opponents have some advanced magicks
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 3, 1994
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            SPATTERS01@...
            > When does an invisible magic user become visible?
            >
            > For years we've made any form of attack (ie, melee, missile, thrown,
            > base, elemental etc.) sufficient to make an invisible character visible,
            > the reasoning being that otherwise invisible characters become too
            > powerful and those without invisibility become sitting ducks.
            >
            > However, as we are currently in the process on reworking the combat
            > round structure, we're rethinking this aspect as well.
            >
            > How do other groups use this rule? S.L. states that the person remains
            > invisible unless they make a violent movement (ie an attack, or being
            > struck), but that does make for some pretty powerful abuses of
            > invisibility.
            >

            I think you should keep the old rules, since invisibility is REALLY powerful
            unless your opponents have some advanced magicks for aid.
            This is sad since this rule is somewhat 'constructed' but i can't see
            any other way. Allowing attacks and the like while invisible would be
            incredibly powerful, never forget:

            A mighty PC attract's a mighty NPC !

            Normal combat, for instance, would have no suspense, why bother about
            those 36 orcs, no orc, except a shaman perhaps, would find out what's
            happening, so do what you want.
            I knew a munchkin-Shadowrun-party, were a mage was running around
            completely invisible armed with minigun and heavy bodyarmor.
            Sure, nobody could stop him, but there is no fun in that games
            if you don't risk anything !

            Silvan
          • Thomas Bagwell
            Just a couple of invisible thoughts: Whaddya think? Sorry... We always hold that casting spells will cause the caster to become visible, since unless stated
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 3, 1994
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              Just a couple of invisible thoughts:



              Whaddya think?
              Sorry...

              We always hold that casting spells will cause the caster to become visible,
              since unless stated otherwise we always hold that casting magic has
              visible effects. Either a glow about the hands and/or body, a light
              connecting the caster and recipient, or something similar...depending on
              the spell. A few spells, primarily stealth type, have very subdued
              effects and sometimes no visible effects...these may not cause
              invisibility to be lost. It depends on the GM and the circumstances.

              There is one invisibility spell that's an exception, and that's the
              invisibility spell from the Force Mage list. No action, violent or
              otherwise, disrupts it...but it's a far shorter duration than any of the
              other invisibility spells. Other spells somehow cause the caster not to
              be seen or noticed...this one, though, physically bends light around the
              target. Smell and sound can still locate him, and if he does take
              violent action that will pinpoint his location, minuses for hitting him
              are much reduced for a round or two.

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "...A wild, weird clime |
              That lieth, sublime, | Thomas N. Bagwell
              Out of Space, | tbagwell@...
              Out of Time." |
              --Edgar Allen Poe |
              'Dreamland' | ____\|/_____________________\|/____
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            • Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ
              ... Any clever spellcaster is ALWAYS going to be dangerous. For instance I was playing in a campaign where invisibility could be cancelled by any attack spell
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 3, 1994
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                On Wed, 2 Nov 1994 cdavies@... wrote:

                > Yes, invisiblity is very powerful. Before I had the last rule.
                > A single invisible took took out the whole party. (He was of the same
                > level as the party and had some luck. But still...)

                Any clever spellcaster is ALWAYS going to be dangerous. For instance I
                was playing in a campaign where invisibility could be cancelled by any
                attack spell (whether successful or not), a fumbled spell, and forceful
                physical action (running, attacking, getting hit, whatever). This helps
                throttle back the deadliness of the spell quite a bit, but being a clever
                chap I hit upon the idea of casting Unseen on my fox familiar Keckerin,
                sending him around the corner, looking through his eyes, and targetting
                spells that way. Obviously won't work with line of sight spells (bolts
                and balls), but it's rather deadly with various others. The mage casting
                the spells would become visible, but that's irrelevant since they are in
                another room / behind the big rock / whatever. The familiar isn't doing
                anything but standing there, so it stays invisible.

                Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > conrad@...
              • Andrew Radke
                ... This is basically how I handle it except like I said in my previous posting it doesn t cancel the spell it just makes the invisible person visible to
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 3, 1994
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                  On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Thomas Bagwell wrote:
                  > We always hold that casting spells will cause the caster to become visible,
                  > since unless stated otherwise we always hold that casting magic has
                  > visible effects. Either a glow about the hands and/or body, a light
                  > connecting the caster and recipient, or something similar...depending on
                  > the spell. A few spells, primarily stealth type, have very subdued
                  > effects and sometimes no visible effects...these may not cause
                  > invisibility to be lost. It depends on the GM and the circumstances.
                  >
                  This is basically how I handle it except like I said in my previous posting
                  it doesn't cancel the spell it just makes the invisible person visible to
                  anyone who saw the effect and now know about the "illusion". What does
                  everyone out there think of this type of ruling?

                  > There is one invisibility spell that's an exception, and that's the
                  > invisibility spell from the Force Mage list. No action, violent or
                  > otherwise, disrupts it...but it's a far shorter duration than any of the
                  > other invisibility spells. Other spells somehow cause the caster not to
                  > be seen or noticed...this one, though, physically bends light around the
                  > target. Smell and sound can still locate him, and if he does take
                  > violent action that will pinpoint his location, minuses for hitting him
                  > are much reduced for a round or two.
                  >
                  This is a bit of a problem for my definition of invisibilty as the people
                  know that he is there now. I would rule this invisibilty as not being an
                  "illusion" but something different, maybe light has forgotten that this
                  sort of invisible person exists (this could make for some interesting
                  effects :) ).
                  Just a few ideas I have had,
                  Andrew.
                  /-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------\
                  | Andrew Radke | Western Halls |
                  | wyvern@... | James Cook University |
                  | andrew.radke@... | Australia, 4811 |
                  +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
                  | 'Indeed, it is possible that the black hole could emit a television set or |
                  | the works of Proust in 10 leather-bound volumes . . .' - Stephen W. Hawking |
                  \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
                • CHIP BENNETT
                  I ve found the basic rules to work fine. However, it is also important to note that an invisible person/monster can be detected if the opponent notices the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 3, 1994
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                    I've found the basic rules to work fine. However, it
                    is also important to note that an invisible person/monster
                    can be detected if the opponent notices the fringe effect
                    of invisibility. I like to use the Predator movie
                    as an example of how someone could detect something. But
                    if you don't, that first ambush is nasty as it shoudl be. IMHO
                  • James Gilliland
                    Immersed in the daily toil, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ said, + + The mage casting + the spells would become visible, but that s irrelevant since they are
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 3, 1994
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                      Immersed in the daily toil, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ said,
                      +
                      + The mage casting
                      + the spells would become visible, but that's irrelevant since they are in
                      + another room / behind the big rock / whatever. The familiar isn't doing
                      + anything but standing there, so it stays invisible.

                      Ouch!! I like it!

                      --
                      Gil Gilliland jsgilli@...
                      U.S. West Technologies
                      Platform Design & Engineering

                      The concept of progress acts as a protective mechanism
                      to shield us from the terrors of the future.

                      - The collected sayings of Maud'Dib -
                    • cdavies@cnsltd.co.uk
                      ... I would rule that seeing through the eyes of something else would, A) Involve concentration and so preclude spell casting (Other than perhaps from a spell
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 4, 1994
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                        > Subject: Re: fox familiar invisable
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                        > Immersed in the daily toil, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ said,
                        > +
                        > + The mage casting
                        > + the spells would become visible, but that's irrelevant since they are in
                        > + another room / behind the big rock / whatever. The familiar isn't doing
                        > + anything but standing there, so it stays invisible.
                        >
                        > Ouch!! I like it!
                        >
                        > --
                        > Gil Gilliland jsgilli@...
                        > U.S. West Technologies
                        > Platform Design & Engineering
                        >
                        > The concept of progress acts as a protective mechanism
                        > to shield us from the terrors of the future.
                        >
                        > - The collected sayings of Maud'Dib -
                        >
                        >

                        I would rule that seeing through the eyes of something else would,

                        A) Involve concentration and so preclude spell casting (Other than perhaps from
                        a spell store.)
                        B) Ivolve a lot of practice. (Aiming magic from a vantage point that is not your own is a very disoriantating effect.)

                        However it's good thinking on the player's part.

                        Chris
                      • Thomas Bagwell
                        ... Well, as this one is on the Gravity Law list (I think), we ve ruled that it is different, and actually physically bends light around the target. I believe
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 4, 1994
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                          On Fri, 4 Nov 1994, Andrew Radke wrote:

                          > > There is one invisibility spell that's an exception, and that's the
                          > > invisibility spell from the Force Mage list. No action, violent or
                          > > otherwise, disrupts it...but it's a far shorter duration than any of the
                          > > other invisibility spells. Other spells somehow cause the caster not to
                          > > be seen or noticed...this one, though, physically bends light around the
                          > > target. Smell and sound can still locate him, and if he does take
                          > > violent action that will pinpoint his location, minuses for hitting him
                          > > are much reduced for a round or two.
                          > >
                          > This is a bit of a problem for my definition of invisibilty as the people
                          > know that he is there now. I would rule this invisibilty as not being an
                          > "illusion" but something different, maybe light has forgotten that this
                          > sort of invisible person exists (this could make for some interesting
                          > effects :) ).

                          Well, as this one is on the Gravity Law list (I think), we've ruled that
                          it is different, and actually physically bends light around the target.
                          I believe it's duration is listed in rounds as opposed to minutes or
                          hours, though.

                          Tom Bagwell
                        • P. J. Burke
                          ... On a wider note, there was an article maybe 5 years back on different familiars in Dragon (I know boo, hiss etc.- I ve learnt my lesson now) Giving truly
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 5, 1994
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                            > > Immersed in the daily toil, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ said,
                            > > +
                            > > + The mage casting
                            > > + the spells would become visible, but that's irrelevant since they are in
                            > > + another room / behind the big rock / whatever. The familiar isn't doing
                            > > + anything but standing there, so it stays invisible.
                            > >
                            > > Ouch!! I like it!
                            > I would rule that seeing through the eyes of something else would,
                            >
                            > A) Involve concentration and so preclude spell casting (Other than perhaps from
                            > a spell store.)
                            > B) Ivolve a lot of practice. (Aiming magic from a vantage point that is not your own is a very disoriantating effect.)
                            >
                            > However it's good thinking on the player's part.
                            >
                            > Chris
                            >

                            On a wider note, there was an article maybe 5 years back on different
                            familiars in Dragon (I know boo, hiss etc.- I've learnt my lesson now)
                            Giving truly awesome facts about animals (a typical hawk - freely
                            available) can spot a worm several hundred feet up (so a large group of
                            oncoming orcs presents no problems)

                            I'm a big fan of familiars (the requesite essence list and spirit ways
                            being my first choice for an essence user - my old GM couldn't believe how
                            powerful a first level player with these two lists is.

                            Some points that came out in play (house rules so obviously presented only
                            as one interpretation)

                            Unless the spell is class I/Inst. your animal is going to have to remain
                            fairly motionless - after all the spell caster has to.

                            Depending on the mechanism of magic you use, the power released by a spell
                            MAY have to go through the familiar - The magic user gathers energy
                            focuses it through his familiar etc. Which will render it visible - and we
                            all know what happens to someone who's familiar gets squelched don't we :-)

                            Have you ever been near a typical fox? They smell - not bad but of "fox".
                            Imagine a typical(?) invisible deodorant wearing human walking into a
                            room. A typical humanoid is meant to have superior olfactory sense. You
                            think they won't notice?

                            And before anyone asks, I have NEVER been foxhunting (disgusting barbaric
                            activity). I am fortunate enough to live in a suburban/farm environment
                            with lots of wildlife - by british townie standards anyway.
                          • Brian
                            ... own is a very disoriantating effect.) ... sounds good to me, but i have always treated persons casting spells using familiars to aim in the same way as a
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 6, 1994
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                              On Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:59:21 -0500 P. J. Burke wrote:

                              > From: P. J. Burke <P.J.Burke@...>
                              > Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:59:21 -0500
                              > Subject: Re : Invisible fox cntd
                              > To: Multiple recipients of list <rolemaster@...>
                              >
                              >
                              > > > Immersed in the daily toil, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ said,
                              > > > +
                              > > > + The mage casting
                              > > > + the spells would become visible, but that's irrelevant since they are in
                              > > > + another room / behind the big rock / whatever. The familiar isn't doing
                              > > > + anything but standing there, so it stays invisible.
                              > > >
                              > > > Ouch!! I like it!
                              > > I would rule that seeing through the eyes of something else would,
                              > >
                              > > A) Involve concentration and so preclude spell casting (Other than perhaps from
                              > > a spell store.)
                              > > B) Ivolve a lot of practice. (Aiming magic from a vantage point that is not your
                              own is a very disoriantating effect.)
                              > >
                              > > However it's good thinking on the player's part.
                              > >
                              > > Chris
                              > >
                              >
                              > On a wider note, there was an article maybe 5 years back on different
                              > familiars in Dragon (I know boo, hiss etc.- I've learnt my lesson now)
                              > Giving truly awesome facts about animals (a typical hawk - freely
                              > available) can spot a worm several hundred feet up (so a large group of
                              > oncoming orcs presents no problems)
                              >
                              > I'm a big fan of familiars (the requesite essence list and spirit ways
                              > being my first choice for an essence user - my old GM couldn't believe how
                              > powerful a first level player with these two lists is.
                              >
                              > Some points that came out in play (house rules so obviously presented only
                              > as one interpretation)
                              >
                              > Unless the spell is class I/Inst. your animal is going to have to remain
                              > fairly motionless - after all the spell caster has to.
                              >
                              > Depending on the mechanism of magic you use, the power released by a spell
                              > MAY have to go through the familiar - The magic user gathers energy
                              > focuses it through his familiar etc. Which will render it visible - and we
                              > all know what happens to someone who's familiar gets squelched don't we :-)
                              >
                              > Have you ever been near a typical fox? They smell - not bad but of "fox".
                              > Imagine a typical(?) invisible deodorant wearing human walking into a
                              > room. A typical humanoid is meant to have superior olfactory sense. You
                              > think they won't notice?
                              >
                              > And before anyone asks, I have NEVER been foxhunting (disgusting barbaric
                              > activity). I am fortunate enough to live in a suburban/farm environment
                              > with lots of wildlife - by british townie standards anyway.
                              >
                              sounds good to me, but i have always treated persons casting spells using
                              familiars to aim in the same way as a person using *PRESENCE* targetting
                              with that. assuming the target is in the same place when the spell is cast as
                              it was when you stopped concentrating on looking through your familiar then you're
                              all right.
                            • Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ
                              ... Well, generally it would be fairly motionless, but I don t follow the reasoning behind this requirement. The spellcaster needs to remain fairly motionless
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 6, 1994
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                                On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, P. J. Burke wrote:
                                > Unless the spell is class I/Inst. your animal is going to have to remain
                                > fairly motionless - after all the spell caster has to.

                                Well, generally it would be fairly motionless, but I don't follow the
                                reasoning behind this requirement. The spellcaster needs to remain
                                fairly motionless because he is concentrating on the spell. The animal
                                isn't doing anything but looking.

                                > Depending on the mechanism of magic you use, the power released by a spell
                                > MAY have to go through the familiar - The magic user gathers energy
                                > focuses it through his familiar etc. Which will render it visible - and we
                                > all know what happens to someone who's familiar gets squelched don't we :-)

                                If this were true (focusing magic through the familiar) then all
                                spellcasters would need to have familiars. I agree that if the magic
                                were being cast 'through' the familiar somehow then it would likely
                                become visible if an attack spell were cast. However, the idea was that
                                the spellcaster was casting the spell from himself to the target... the
                                familiar's only relevance is in allowing the caster to see the target.

                                > Have you ever been near a typical fox? They smell - not bad but of "fox".
                                > Imagine a typical(?) invisible deodorant wearing human walking into a
                                > room. A typical humanoid is meant to have superior olfactory sense. You
                                > think they won't notice?

                                Actually the scent of a fox isn't as noticable if it is a 'pet' which is
                                bathed fairly regularly. Obviously there are going to be some creatures
                                that can pick up intruders by scent, hearing, echolocation, or what have
                                you. Entirely seperate issue.


                                Another fun way to blow things up;
                                The various elemental bolt spells spring out of the caster's palm in a
                                straight line towards the target.
                                The 'projected light' spell also comes out of the caster's palm in a
                                straight line... operating as a sort of flashlight.

                                Now suppose someone casts projected light.... and centers the light on an
                                enemy... and then casts lightning bolt. :)

                                Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > conrad@...
                              • Andrew Radke
                                ... I saw that mentioned recently (by whom I can t remember) and liked the idea. I certainly haven t mentioned it to my players but I think they will probably
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 6, 1994
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                                  On Sun, 6 Nov 1994, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ wrote:
                                  > The various elemental bolt spells spring out of the caster's palm in a
                                  > straight line towards the target.
                                  > The 'projected light' spell also comes out of the caster's palm in a
                                  > straight line... operating as a sort of flashlight.
                                  >
                                  > Now suppose someone casts projected light.... and centers the light on an
                                  > enemy... and then casts lightning bolt. :)
                                  >
                                  I saw that mentioned recently (by whom I can't remember) and liked the
                                  idea. I certainly haven't mentioned it to my players but I think they
                                  will probably find out about it soon enough. These are the sort of ideas
                                  I like to see from this mailing list (I liked the familiar one as well).
                                  Keep the ideas flowing. :)
                                  CYA
                                  Andrew Radke.

                                  /-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------\
                                  | Andrew Radke | Western Halls |
                                  | wyvern@... | James Cook University |
                                  | andrew.radke@... | Australia, 4811 |
                                  +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
                                  | 'Indeed, it is possible that the black hole could emit a television set or |
                                  | the works of Proust in 10 leather-bound volumes . . .' - Stephen W. Hawking |
                                  \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
                                • Anthony Jon Lev Anderson
                                  ... This is real cute. The question being, should the caster gain an OB bonus for effectively having laser targeting system? And just to add fuel to the fire,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 7, 1994
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                                    > On Sun, 6 Nov 1994, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ wrote:
                                    > > The various elemental bolt spells spring out of the caster's palm in a
                                    > > straight line towards the target.
                                    > > The 'projected light' spell also comes out of the caster's palm in a
                                    > > straight line... operating as a sort of flashlight.
                                    > >
                                    > > Now suppose someone casts projected light.... and centers the light on an
                                    > > enemy... and then casts lightning bolt. :)



                                    This is real cute. The question being, should the caster gain an OB bonus for
                                    effectively having laser targeting system?

                                    And just to add fuel to the fire, any Alchemists care to design a wand that
                                    fires projected light just before a lightning bolt?

                                    Just a thought....



                                    Lev
                                  • Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ
                                    ... I d argue that they would. I also have it give a bonus to shots called on a specific body location. ... The person who was GM ing when I came up with that
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Nov 7, 1994
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                                      On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Anthony Jon Lev Anderson wrote:

                                      > On Sun, 6 Nov 1994, Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ wrote:
                                      > > Now suppose someone casts projected light.... and centers the light on an
                                      > > enemy... and then casts lightning bolt. :)

                                      > This is real cute. The question being, should the caster gain an OB bonus for
                                      > effectively having laser targeting system?

                                      I'd argue that they would. I also have it give a bonus to shots called
                                      on a specific body location.

                                      > And just to add fuel to the fire, any Alchemists care to design a wand that
                                      > fires projected light just before a lightning bolt?

                                      The person who was GM'ing when I came up with that one is currently a
                                      player in my campaign. In the spirit of 'turnabout being fair play' he's
                                      gotten an enchanted arrow rest mounted on his bow which projects a little
                                      beam of light. Not quite as good since an arrow has to arc, and is going
                                      to be affected by crosswind and such like... but still a handy little gadget.
                                      Shift the light over to infrared (Spell Mastery) and you've got the
                                      advantage of it being invisible to those who can't see in that range
                                      (elves in my campaign can.)

                                      Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > conrad@...
                                    • Lars Bernstein
                                      ... I hat to be a nay-sayer (or maybe I like it :-)), but casting projected light doesn t seem to me to be much of a help. First of all, if you read the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Nov 8, 1994
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                                        >
                                        > Another fun way to blow things up;
                                        > The various elemental bolt spells spring out of the caster's palm in a
                                        > straight line towards the target.
                                        > The 'projected light' spell also comes out of the caster's palm in a
                                        > straight line... operating as a sort of flashlight.
                                        >
                                        > Now suppose someone casts projected light.... and centers the light on an
                                        > enemy... and then casts lightning bolt. :)
                                        >
                                        > Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > conrad@...
                                        >

                                        I hat to be a "nay-sayer" (or maybe I like it :-)), but casting projected
                                        light doesn't seem to me to be much of a help. First of all, if you read
                                        the spell description, I believe (could be wrong, don't have books here)
                                        that the spell has very limited range. Second, if it acts like a flashlight
                                        it won't really "pin-point" anything, unlike a laser sight on a gun. Seems
                                        like it would only "pin-point" your target at ranges where you are getting
                                        a +35 for point-blank anyway ;-). Just my three cents.

                                        Laurence E. Bernstein
                                        leb@...
                                      • Lars Bernstein
                                        ... A problem that I see with this entire discussion of casting a spell at a target that you can see , but would not be able to cast at normally, is the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Nov 8, 1994
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                                          >
                                          > If this were true (focusing magic through the familiar) then all
                                          > spellcasters would need to have familiars. I agree that if the magic
                                          > were being cast 'through' the familiar somehow then it would likely
                                          > become visible if an attack spell were cast. However, the idea was that
                                          > the spellcaster was casting the spell from himself to the target... the
                                          > familiar's only relevance is in allowing the caster to see the target.
                                          >
                                          > Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > conrad@...
                                          >

                                          A problem that I see with this entire discussion of casting a spell
                                          at a target that you can "see", but would not be able to cast at normally,
                                          is the problem of "hitting" the target. What I mean is that what if your
                                          familiar is in a closed room (within the spell range), and you wish
                                          to throw a spell on a target your familiar can see. If you don't like the
                                          use of a familiar in this example then what if you are using a "Long Sight"
                                          spell? Can you still "hit" the target with your spell despite the
                                          intervening barriers? Is it just magic? Or does the magic need to be
                                          able to "travel" unblocked from you to the target?

                                          When questions like this [the familiar example] come up in our games, we
                                          prefer to address the general case (does the spell need to "travel" to
                                          the target?). Having done that, a ruling can be made on specific cases
                                          such as the familiar, or the locked room.

                                          I don't recall that we have addressed this particular issue in our game.
                                          Furthermore, the question arises - Can you target a spell using a sense
                                          other than sight? Can you use the "Presence" spell to target someone?
                                          Can you use your hearing? (Has been done in an emergency in our game)
                                          How about your smell? ;-)

                                          Laurence E. Bernstein
                                          leb@...
                                        • Luc Maillet
                                          ... Fair idea (the +35 for point-blank). But it might be of far greater help than you think, as it comes on top of whatever Directed Spell OB the mage already
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Nov 8, 1994
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                                            > From: leb@... (Lars Bernstein)
                                            >
                                            > I hat to be a "nay-sayer" (or maybe I like it :-)), but casting projected
                                            > light doesn't seem to me to be much of a help. First of all, if you read
                                            > the spell description, I believe (could be wrong, don't have books here)
                                            > that the spell has very limited range. Second, if it acts like a flashlight
                                            > it won't really "pin-point" anything, unlike a laser sight on a gun. Seems
                                            > like it would only "pin-point" your target at ranges where you are getting
                                            > a +35 for point-blank anyway ;-). Just my three cents.

                                            Fair idea (the +35 for point-blank). But it might be of far greater help than
                                            you think, as it comes on top of whatever Directed Spell OB the mage already
                                            has.

                                            Of course, narrowing the beam to a very thin line would require Spell Mastery
                                            on the Projected Light spell... but, then again, it's nothing a mage can't do.

                                            Luc.
                                          • Iain
                                            ... The detected but not sighted modifier exists for just this sort of thing. I would be inclined to adjust it if a mage were using his sense of smell ( unless
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Nov 9, 1994
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                                              > Furthermore, the question arises - Can you target a spell using a sense
                                              > other than sight? Can you use the "Presence" spell to target someone?
                                              > Can you use your hearing? (Has been done in an emergency in our game)
                                              > How about your smell? ;-)
                                              >
                                              > Laurence E. Bernstein

                                              The detected but not sighted modifier exists for just this sort of thing.
                                              I would be inclined to adjust it if a mage were using his sense of smell
                                              ( unless he had a really good one ( ChCL ))!

                                              Iain
                                            • cdavies@cnsltd.co.uk
                                              ... This is quite hard question to answer an will be I m sure campaign specific. Of the many options available there is. 1) Straight line, unobstructed empty
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Nov 9, 1994
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                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > If this were true (focusing magic through the familiar) then all
                                                > > spellcasters would need to have familiars. I agree that if the magic
                                                > > were being cast 'through' the familiar somehow then it would likely
                                                > > become visible if an attack spell were cast. However, the idea was that
                                                > > the spellcaster was casting the spell from himself to the target... the
                                                > > familiar's only relevance is in allowing the caster to see the target.
                                                > >
                                                > > Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > conrad@...
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > A problem that I see with this entire discussion of casting a spell
                                                > at a target that you can "see", but would not be able to cast at normally,
                                                > is the problem of "hitting" the target. What I mean is that what if your
                                                > familiar is in a closed room (within the spell range), and you wish
                                                > to throw a spell on a target your familiar can see. If you don't like the
                                                > use of a familiar in this example then what if you are using a "Long Sight"
                                                > spell? Can you still "hit" the target with your spell despite the
                                                > intervening barriers? Is it just magic? Or does the magic need to be
                                                > able to "travel" unblocked from you to the target?
                                                >
                                                > When questions like this [the familiar example] come up in our games, we
                                                > prefer to address the general case (does the spell need to "travel" to
                                                > the target?). Having done that, a ruling can be made on specific cases
                                                > such as the familiar, or the locked room.

                                                This is quite hard question to answer an will be I'm sure campaign specific.
                                                Of the many options available there is.
                                                1) Straight line, unobstructed empty path between spell caster and target.
                                                2) There exists an unobstructed path between caster and target in some
                                                notional area of effect of the spell. (Note this is a different AOE
                                                to the one described in the spell.
                                                3) Walls and such do not effect magic as it passes through the ether.
                                                Being the sort of chap I am. My players only find out how thing work if
                                                they try. PS I use all of the above. Differnt spells have different
                                                rules.
                                                >
                                                > I don't recall that we have addressed this particular issue in our game.
                                                > Furthermore, the question arises - Can you target a spell using a sense
                                                > other than sight? Can you use the "Presence" spell to target someone?
                                                > Can you use your hearing? (Has been done in an emergency in our game)
                                                > How about your smell? ;-)
                                                I think the answer to this one must be yes. There is a proviso,
                                                it may not be easy. Basically if you can cast the spell with you eyes
                                                open, you should be able to cast it with them shut, so long as you can
                                                picture the positional distance away in your "mind's eye with the
                                                correct amount of acurracy. It might well take a lot of practice to get
                                                this right.
                                                >
                                                > Laurence E. Bernstein
                                                > leb@...
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • acd@hotld.att.com
                                                ... I have had this happen ( spells thrown into closed rooms ) and apply a minus depending on the intervening materials. Windows aren t as bad as wood, wood
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Nov 9, 1994
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                                                  >> If this were true (focusing magic through the familiar) then all
                                                  >> spellcasters would need to have familiars. I agree that if the magic
                                                  >> were being cast 'through' the familiar somehow then it would likely
                                                  >> become visible if an attack spell were cast. However, the idea was that
                                                  >> the spellcaster was casting the spell from himself to the target... the
                                                  >> familiar's only relevance is in allowing the caster to see the target.
                                                  >>
                                                  >A problem that I see with this entire discussion of casting a spell
                                                  >at a target that you can "see", but would not be able to cast at normally,
                                                  >is the problem of "hitting" the target. What I mean is that what if your
                                                  >familiar is in a closed room (within the spell range), and you wish
                                                  >to throw a spell on a target your familiar can see. If you don't like the
                                                  >use of a familiar in this example then what if you are using a "Long Sight"
                                                  >spell? Can you still "hit" the target with your spell despite the
                                                  >intervening barriers? Is it just magic? Or does the magic need to be
                                                  >able to "travel" unblocked from you to the target?

                                                  I have had this happen ( spells thrown into closed rooms ) and
                                                  apply a minus depending on the intervening materials. Windows
                                                  aren't as bad as wood, wood less than stone, stone than metal, etc.
                                                  I could see minuses being -20 to -100 or so. I feel the magic does
                                                  have to travel from the caster to the targetted spot/person.
                                                  >
                                                  >I don't recall that we have addressed this particular issue in our game.
                                                  >Furthermore, the question arises - Can you target a spell using a sense
                                                  >other than sight? Can you use the "Presence" spell to target someone?
                                                  >Can you use your hearing? (Has been done in an emergency in our game)
                                                  >How about your smell? ;-)

                                                  I base this on the relative Perceptive abilities of the target.
                                                  Presence can be treated two ways; either a general hunch/feeling
                                                  that others are present or like radar, blips with range and direction.
                                                  The latter is more powerful of course.

                                                  Ciao,
                                                  Andrew
                                                • Lars Bernstein
                                                  ... Actually, in our games the skill General Perception is bought for use with two of the five senses. Other senses are used with similar skill. For most
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Nov 10, 1994
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                                                    >
                                                    > [stuff by me about targeting with other senses than sight]
                                                    >
                                                    > I think the answer to this one must be yes. There is a proviso,
                                                    > it may not be easy. Basically if you can cast the spell with you eyes
                                                    > open, you should be able to cast it with them shut, so long as you can
                                                    > picture the positional distance away in your "mind's eye with the
                                                    > correct amount of acurracy. It might well take a lot of practice to get
                                                    > this right.
                                                    >

                                                    Actually, in our games the skill General Perception is bought for use
                                                    with two of the five senses. Other senses are used with "similar" skill.
                                                    For most people the two senses are sight and hearing, for my "Wind" mage
                                                    (now Storm Mage, but that's beside the point), the two sense are hearing
                                                    and smell. I have been know to target a spell with my hearing when
                                                    blinded by some unfortunate occurance. ;-) And yes, I usually get some
                                                    large minus, which is general based on how good my perception roll is.

                                                    Laurence E. Bernstein
                                                  • Lars Bernstein
                                                    ... Hmmm... Yes. Well we always thought this modifier applied mostly to the Cornering spells, which are specifically designed to hit targets that are not in
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Nov 10, 1994
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                                                      >
                                                      > > Furthermore, the question arises - Can you target a spell using a sense
                                                      > > other than sight? Can you use the "Presence" spell to target someone?
                                                      > > Can you use your hearing? (Has been done in an emergency in our game)
                                                      > > How about your smell? ;-)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Laurence E. Bernstein
                                                      >
                                                      > The detected but not sighted modifier exists for just this sort of thing.
                                                      > I would be inclined to adjust it if a mage were using his sense of smell
                                                      > ( unless he had a really good one ( ChCL ))!
                                                      >
                                                      > Iain
                                                      >

                                                      Hmmm... Yes. Well we always thought this modifier applied mostly
                                                      to the "Cornering" spells, which are specifically designed to hit targets
                                                      that are not in direct line of sight. But the modifier still doesn't
                                                      answer the question. "Can you cast a spell at someone who is in a closed
                                                      room"?

                                                      Laurence E. Bernstein
                                                    • Lachlan Roche
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Nov 10, 1994
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                                                        > Hmmm... Yes. Well we always thought this modifier applied mostly
                                                        > to the "Cornering" spells, which are specifically designed to hit targets
                                                        > that are not in direct line of sight. But the modifier still doesn't
                                                        > answer the question. "Can you cast a spell at someone who is in a closed
                                                        > room"?

                                                        Yes, unless the spell effect requires some physical path to the target. (ie
                                                        elemental ball/bolt)

                                                        In general, I feel that any ingenious uses of skills/spells should be
                                                        acceptable.

                                                        Stray thought, how about an _invisible_ barrier? Say, if someone
                                                        "invisibled" a wall section.

                                                        --
                                                        Lachlan Roche ... in Brisbane, Australia ... lr@...
                                                      • Iain
                                                        ... That depends. In my campaign(s) you can if you know where they are, providing it is not a direct blasty type spell ( bolts and balls ). I m not sure if
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Nov 11, 1994
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                                                          > > The detected but not sighted modifier exists for just this sort of thing.
                                                          > > I would be inclined to adjust it if a mage were using his sense of smell
                                                          > > ( unless he had a really good one ( ChCL ))!
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Iain
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          > Hmmm... Yes. Well we always thought this modifier applied mostly
                                                          > to the "Cornering" spells, which are specifically designed to hit targets
                                                          > that are not in direct line of sight. But the modifier still doesn't
                                                          > answer the question. "Can you cast a spell at someone who is in a closed
                                                          > room"?
                                                          >

                                                          That depends. In my campaign(s) you can if you know where they are,
                                                          providing it is not a direct blasty type spell ( bolts and balls ). I'm not sure
                                                          if this was a mistake or not.......
                                                          Iain
                                                          >
                                                          >
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