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Re: What a great idea...

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  • Jim
    It s interesting that you liken a person s desire to get to where he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner to terrorism . Much like the so-called
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2005
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      It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to where
      he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner to "terrorism". Much
      like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and buzz-
      words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even more the
      liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.

      The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an arbitrary
      figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions. Also, it
      places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest common
      denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially lethal
      conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.

      I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for states to
      post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road, taking
      traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads would be
      given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level, without fear
      of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided their
      actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of itself,
      does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be falling out
      of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers to admire
      for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along with this
      newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to stress the
      importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems, driver
      ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.

      Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where speed was a
      proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the driver.
      Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to safely
      control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case, however, the
      driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
      accountable to the fullest extent.



      --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost <tomfrostjr@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and Mr.
      Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history, now
      that I've submitted this idea on http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
      >
      > - TF
      >
      > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
      >
      > --
      >
      > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where we're
      searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced bread.
      >
      > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win $100,000!
      > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Tom Frost Jr.
      My buzzword, terrorism , is based on the _fact_ of what many of my road rage opponents are doing. Yours, Patriot Act , isn t. Therefore, I hereby warn you
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2005
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        My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what many of my
        road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
        Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my time
        with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my killfile. (I
        _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)

        This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't like
        speed limits, write to your state representative, not me, because I
        never took any position on this list about how high or low speed
        limits should be or even whether they should be posted at all. This
        discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join in on
        your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.

        Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature enough
        to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-to-tail"
        and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and proper
        methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem. The latter
        indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for that, I
        pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
        therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a result of
        such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a psychiatrist.
        There's also another person who might be able to help you to grow up;
        however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of your
        displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time peeking in
        your old driver's manual about following distance laws. Reading the
        dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.

        - TF



        --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to where
        > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner to "terrorism".
        Much
        > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and buzz-
        > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even more the
        > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
        >
        > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an arbitrary
        > figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions. Also,
        it
        > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest common
        > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially lethal
        > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
        >
        > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for states to
        > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road, taking
        > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads would be
        > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level, without fear
        > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided their
        > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of itself,
        > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be falling out
        > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers to
        admire
        > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along with
        this
        > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to stress
        the
        > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems, driver
        > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
        >
        > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where speed was
        a
        > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the
        driver.
        > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to safely
        > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case, however, the
        > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
        > accountable to the fullest extent.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost <tomfrostjr@y...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and Mr.
        > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history, now
        > that I've submitted this idea on http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
        > >
        > > - TF
        > >
        > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
        > >
        > > --
        > >
        > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where we're
        > searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced bread.
        > >
        > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win $100,000!
        > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • thomas cooper
        wapow with a bitch slap and a highhoe tallyhoe ,giving our nations highways an enema as u can see by my front grill i dont stop. opps i accidently rearended u
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 2, 2005
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          wapow with a bitch slap and a highhoe tallyhoe ,giving our nations highways an enema as u can see by my front grill i dont stop. opps i accidently rearended u in the fast lane fk it {got insurance }road hogs like mr frost need to be run off and out of the fast lane ,crippling our economy ,clogging our nations highways with snail bs reteric idiotology all these guys need for is the local government to pull out the block and pegboard test they will surly fail and away goes there drivers lisc

          "Tom Frost Jr." <tomfrostjr@...> wrote: My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what many of my
          road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
          Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my time
          with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my killfile. (I
          _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)

          This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't like
          speed limits, write to your state representative, not me, because I
          never took any position on this list about how high or low speed
          limits should be or even whether they should be posted at all. This
          discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join in on
          your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.

          Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature enough
          to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-to-tail"
          and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and proper
          methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem. The latter
          indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for that, I
          pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
          therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a result of
          such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a psychiatrist.
          There's also another person who might be able to help you to grow up;
          however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of your
          displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time peeking in
          your old driver's manual about following distance laws. Reading the
          dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.

          - TF



          --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to where
          > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner to "terrorism".
          Much
          > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and buzz-
          > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even more the
          > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
          >
          > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an arbitrary
          > figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions. Also,
          it
          > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest common
          > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially lethal
          > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
          >
          > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for states to
          > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road, taking
          > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads would be
          > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level, without fear
          > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided their
          > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of itself,
          > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be falling out
          > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers to
          admire
          > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along with
          this
          > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to stress
          the
          > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems, driver
          > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
          >
          > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where speed was
          a
          > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the
          driver.
          > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to safely
          > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case, however, the
          > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
          > accountable to the fullest extent.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost <tomfrostjr@y...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and Mr.
          > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history, now
          > that I've submitted this idea on http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
          > >
          > > - TF
          > >
          > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
          > >
          > > --
          > >
          > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where we're
          > searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced bread.
          > >
          > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win $100,000!
          > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Frost Jr.
          Your grace period s getting ready to expire, punk, for fixing that fence of mine that you knocked down during that joy ride you took with your uncle s pickup
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 4, 2005
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            Your grace period's getting ready to expire, punk, for fixing that
            fence of mine that you knocked down during that joy ride you took
            with your uncle's pickup two years ago. I thought you would have at
            least done it when you got out of juvie hall, but then, I suppose,
            you were probably too busy paying for the totaled pickup truck.
            Anyhow, when your grace period ends, it will be in the form of a 4 am
            phone call to your stepdaddy in which I will inform him that I've
            finally gotten around to buying my next batch of cows, that they're
            on the way and will be released into my pasture there at 6 am, and
            that I WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE when they very shortly find that hole
            in my fence (that you made and still haven't fixed) and come shit in
            your daddy's yard and smash his picture window. I hope they also kick
            in your _teeth_, because your grills (one of which I've already
            totaled - along with your, or more precisely your theft victims',
            radiator and windshield - with my stone pile there) are getting
            boring.

            - TF


            --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, thomas cooper
            <thomashcooper2001@y...> wrote:
            >
            > wapow with a bitch slap and a highhoe tallyhoe ,giving our nations
            highways an enema as u can see by my front grill i dont stop. opps i
            accidently rearended u in the fast lane fk it {got insurance }road
            hogs like mr frost need to be run off and out of the fast
            lane ,crippling our economy ,clogging our nations highways with snail
            bs reteric idiotology all these guys need for is the local government
            to pull out the block and pegboard test they will surly fail and away
            goes there drivers lisc
            >
            > "Tom Frost Jr." <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote: My buzzword, "terrorism",
            is based on the _fact_ of what many of my
            > road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
            > Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my time
            > with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my killfile. (I
            > _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)
            >
            > This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't like
            > speed limits, write to your state representative, not me, because I
            > never took any position on this list about how high or low speed
            > limits should be or even whether they should be posted at all. This
            > discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join in on
            > your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.
            >
            > Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature
            enough
            > to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-to-
            tail"
            > and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and proper
            > methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem. The
            latter
            > indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for that,
            I
            > pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
            > therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a result of
            > such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a psychiatrist.
            > There's also another person who might be able to help you to grow
            up;
            > however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of your
            > displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time peeking
            in
            > your old driver's manual about following distance laws. Reading the
            > dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.
            >
            > - TF
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to where
            > > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner to "terrorism".
            > Much
            > > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and buzz-
            > > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even more
            the
            > > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
            > >
            > > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an
            arbitrary
            > > figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions.
            Also,
            > it
            > > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest
            common
            > > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially
            lethal
            > > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
            > >
            > > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for states
            to
            > > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road, taking
            > > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads would
            be
            > > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level, without
            fear
            > > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided their
            > > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of
            itself,
            > > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be falling
            out
            > > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers to
            > admire
            > > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along with
            > this
            > > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to stress
            > the
            > > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems, driver
            > > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
            > >
            > > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where speed
            was
            > a
            > > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the
            > driver.
            > > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to safely
            > > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case, however,
            the
            > > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
            > > accountable to the fullest extent.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost
            <tomfrostjr@y...>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and Mr.
            > > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history, now
            > > that I've submitted this idea on http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
            > > >
            > > > - TF
            > > >
            > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > >
            > > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where we're
            > > searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced
            bread.
            > > >
            > > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win $100,000!
            > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Jim
            Terrorism is one of those words in today s lexicon that has taken on a connotation far exceeding Mr. Webster s definition. I m sure you understand that, and
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 8, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              "Terrorism" is one of those words in today's lexicon that has taken
              on a connotation far exceeding Mr. Webster's definition. I'm sure you
              understand that, and used that word specifically to incite reaction.
              My reference to the so-called "Patriot Act" was not an attempt to
              undermine your patriotism in any way. I suggest you re-read my
              previous posting for clarification. You seem to have a knack for
              taking people's submitted thoughts out of context. As for my
              perceived lack of maturity, be advised that ANY attack on a family
              member will be met with the same intensity. If that is an indication
              of immaturity to you, then so be it.

              As for my enjoyment of motoring, true, I'm not much of a Sunday-
              driver, take-in-the-scenery kind of guy. I do, however, enjoy the
              experience of becoming one with the machine. I enjoy the various
              sights, feelings and sounds of the experience- the brisk and steady
              climb of the tachometer, the sound of the exhaust note while
              accelerating and shifting, the exhilaration of skillfully negotiating
              a high-speed corner, the feeling that the car is an extension of
              myself. For me, this is the very essence of the driving experience. I
              appreciate your concern, however.

              Lastly, you have previously referred to me as a "violent criminal",
              and have suggested that I receive psychiatric counselling. Yet, you
              make reference to a "killfile", and have even wished death upon
              fellow motorists ("Die non-signalling scum"- September 23, 2005). I
              have expressed exasperation with the driving habits of many, and have
              suggested that speed AND SAFETY are not mutually exclusive. Maybe
              this is a crazy notion to you. Perhaps you could refer me to your
              psychiatrist for help.

              --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
              <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
              >
              > My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what many of my
              > road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
              > Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my time
              > with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my killfile. (I
              > _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)
              >
              > This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't like
              > speed limits, write to your state representative, not me, because I
              > never took any position on this list about how high or low speed
              > limits should be or even whether they should be posted at all. This
              > discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join in on
              > your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.
              >
              > Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature
              enough
              > to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-to-
              tail"
              > and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and proper
              > methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem. The
              latter
              > indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for that,
              I
              > pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
              > therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a result of
              > such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a psychiatrist.
              > There's also another person who might be able to help you to grow
              up;
              > however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of your
              > displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time peeking
              in
              > your old driver's manual about following distance laws. Reading the
              > dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.
              >
              > - TF
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to where
              > > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner to "terrorism".
              > Much
              > > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and buzz-
              > > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even more
              the
              > > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
              > >
              > > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an
              arbitrary
              > > figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions.
              Also,
              > it
              > > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest
              common
              > > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially
              lethal
              > > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
              > >
              > > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for states
              to
              > > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road, taking
              > > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads would
              be
              > > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level, without
              fear
              > > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided their
              > > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of
              itself,
              > > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be falling
              out
              > > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers to
              > admire
              > > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along with
              > this
              > > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to stress
              > the
              > > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems, driver
              > > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
              > >
              > > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where speed
              was
              > a
              > > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the
              > driver.
              > > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to safely
              > > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case, however,
              the
              > > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
              > > accountable to the fullest extent.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost
              <tomfrostjr@y...>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and Mr.
              > > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history, now
              > > that I've submitted this idea on http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
              > > >
              > > > - TF
              > > >
              > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
              > > >
              > > > --
              > > >
              > > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where we're
              > > searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced
              bread.
              > > >
              > > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win $100,000!
              > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Tom Frost Jr.
              I was using the word terrorism in this context two and three decades before the Patriot Act came along. Therefore, I suggest that you study it some more.
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 8, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                I was using the word "terrorism" in this context two and three
                decades before the "Patriot Act" came along. Therefore, I suggest
                that you study it some more. And while you're at it, please add
                another word to your to-study list also - one that _is_ being milked
                out of context, by you: "Killfile".

                Driving isn't as simple as race track skills. Right off the bat, when
                you leave the pampered confines of that race track and drive out here
                in the real world there's a whole different set of rules, and the
                most important element of those rules is discipline, which you ain't
                got.

                But I agree that we can leave your mother out of it. I went there
                because "birds of a feather flock together" is one of the most
                valuable life lessons that _my_ mother taught _me_. The relevence
                (which I guess you missed) of "birds of a feather flock together", is
                that you can be found in the list archives cuddling up with at least
                one member who advocates using one's vehicle as a weapon against
                one's fellow road users.

                - TF


                --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > "Terrorism" is one of those words in today's lexicon that has taken
                > on a connotation far exceeding Mr. Webster's definition. I'm sure
                you
                > understand that, and used that word specifically to incite
                reaction.
                > My reference to the so-called "Patriot Act" was not an attempt to
                > undermine your patriotism in any way. I suggest you re-read my
                > previous posting for clarification. You seem to have a knack for
                > taking people's submitted thoughts out of context. As for my
                > perceived lack of maturity, be advised that ANY attack on a family
                > member will be met with the same intensity. If that is an
                indication
                > of immaturity to you, then so be it.
                >
                > As for my enjoyment of motoring, true, I'm not much of a Sunday-
                > driver, take-in-the-scenery kind of guy. I do, however, enjoy the
                > experience of becoming one with the machine. I enjoy the various
                > sights, feelings and sounds of the experience- the brisk and steady
                > climb of the tachometer, the sound of the exhaust note while
                > accelerating and shifting, the exhilaration of skillfully
                negotiating
                > a high-speed corner, the feeling that the car is an extension of
                > myself. For me, this is the very essence of the driving experience.
                I
                > appreciate your concern, however.
                >
                > Lastly, you have previously referred to me as a "violent criminal",
                > and have suggested that I receive psychiatric counselling. Yet, you
                > make reference to a "killfile", and have even wished death upon
                > fellow motorists ("Die non-signalling scum"- September 23, 2005). I
                > have expressed exasperation with the driving habits of many, and
                have
                > suggested that speed AND SAFETY are not mutually exclusive. Maybe
                > this is a crazy notion to you. Perhaps you could refer me to your
                > psychiatrist for help.
                >
                > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                > <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what many of
                my
                > > road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
                > > Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my time
                > > with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my killfile.
                (I
                > > _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)
                > >
                > > This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't like
                > > speed limits, write to your state representative, not me, because
                I
                > > never took any position on this list about how high or low speed
                > > limits should be or even whether they should be posted at all.
                This
                > > discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join in on
                > > your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.
                > >
                > > Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature
                > enough
                > > to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-to-
                > tail"
                > > and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and proper
                > > methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem. The
                > latter
                > > indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for
                that,
                > I
                > > pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
                > > therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a result
                of
                > > such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a
                psychiatrist.
                > > There's also another person who might be able to help you to grow
                > up;
                > > however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of your
                > > displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time
                peeking
                > in
                > > your old driver's manual about following distance laws. Reading
                the
                > > dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.
                > >
                > > - TF
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to
                where
                > > > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner
                to "terrorism".
                > > Much
                > > > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and
                buzz-
                > > > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even more
                > the
                > > > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
                > > >
                > > > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an
                > arbitrary
                > > > figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions.
                > Also,
                > > it
                > > > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest
                > common
                > > > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially
                > lethal
                > > > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
                > > >
                > > > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for states
                > to
                > > > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road, taking
                > > > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads
                would
                > be
                > > > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level, without
                > fear
                > > > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided their
                > > > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of
                > itself,
                > > > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be falling
                > out
                > > > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers to
                > > admire
                > > > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along with
                > > this
                > > > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to
                stress
                > > the
                > > > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems, driver
                > > > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
                > > >
                > > > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where speed
                > was
                > > a
                > > > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the
                > > driver.
                > > > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to safely
                > > > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case, however,
                > the
                > > > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
                > > > accountable to the fullest extent.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost
                > <tomfrostjr@y...>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and Mr.
                > > > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history,
                now
                > > > that I've submitted this idea on
                http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                > > > >
                > > > > - TF
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
                > > > >
                > > > > --
                > > > >
                > > > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where
                we're
                > > > searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced
                > bread.
                > > > >
                > > > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win
                $100,000!
                > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Jim
                The only thing that I advocate is the idea that speed and safety are not mutually exclusive. This is proven on a daily basis in countries throughout Europe
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 9, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  The only thing that I advocate is the idea that speed and safety are
                  not mutually exclusive. This is proven on a daily basis in countries
                  throughout Europe that train their drivers to a much greater degree,
                  and as a result see much improved transportation efficiency and
                  safety. There's really no reason why the same kinds of results could
                  not be seen here, if drivers were to take the time to fully
                  understand their vehicles, and the handling characteristics thereof.

                  Also, a little common sense and mutual respect on the roadways would
                  go a long way. Although I have never had the privilege of driving the
                  Autobahn, I have talked to many who have, and have read extensively
                  on the subject. On the Autobahn, recommended speeds are posted (not
                  speed limits- in most areas, anyway), and it is illegal to block
                  faster traffic. This permits vehicles operated at vastly differing
                  speeds to all get to their destinations relatively safely. I'm sure
                  the professionalism of the average German driver far exceeds that of
                  most American drivers. It would have to, when you're dealing with
                  such variations in speed. Here, we have been lulled into bored
                  complacency by decades of the dreaded "Double Nickel". (I remember
                  when they raised the Interstate speeds in Michigan to 70 MPH just a
                  few years ago. People were convinced that wholesale carnage would be
                  the result. The funny thing is, that never happened. If anything, I
                  think it actually made drivers focus more on their driving, and the
                  other vehicles operating around them.)

                  --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                  <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was using the word "terrorism" in this context two and three
                  > decades before the "Patriot Act" came along. Therefore, I suggest
                  > that you study it some more. And while you're at it, please add
                  > another word to your to-study list also - one that _is_ being
                  milked
                  > out of context, by you: "Killfile".
                  >
                  > Driving isn't as simple as race track skills. Right off the bat,
                  when
                  > you leave the pampered confines of that race track and drive out
                  here
                  > in the real world there's a whole different set of rules, and the
                  > most important element of those rules is discipline, which you
                  ain't
                  > got.
                  >
                  > But I agree that we can leave your mother out of it. I went there
                  > because "birds of a feather flock together" is one of the most
                  > valuable life lessons that _my_ mother taught _me_. The relevence
                  > (which I guess you missed) of "birds of a feather flock together",
                  is
                  > that you can be found in the list archives cuddling up with at
                  least
                  > one member who advocates using one's vehicle as a weapon against
                  > one's fellow road users.
                  >
                  > - TF
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "Terrorism" is one of those words in today's lexicon that has
                  taken
                  > > on a connotation far exceeding Mr. Webster's definition. I'm sure
                  > you
                  > > understand that, and used that word specifically to incite
                  > reaction.
                  > > My reference to the so-called "Patriot Act" was not an attempt to
                  > > undermine your patriotism in any way. I suggest you re-read my
                  > > previous posting for clarification. You seem to have a knack for
                  > > taking people's submitted thoughts out of context. As for my
                  > > perceived lack of maturity, be advised that ANY attack on a
                  family
                  > > member will be met with the same intensity. If that is an
                  > indication
                  > > of immaturity to you, then so be it.
                  > >
                  > > As for my enjoyment of motoring, true, I'm not much of a Sunday-
                  > > driver, take-in-the-scenery kind of guy. I do, however, enjoy the
                  > > experience of becoming one with the machine. I enjoy the various
                  > > sights, feelings and sounds of the experience- the brisk and
                  steady
                  > > climb of the tachometer, the sound of the exhaust note while
                  > > accelerating and shifting, the exhilaration of skillfully
                  > negotiating
                  > > a high-speed corner, the feeling that the car is an extension of
                  > > myself. For me, this is the very essence of the driving
                  experience.
                  > I
                  > > appreciate your concern, however.
                  > >
                  > > Lastly, you have previously referred to me as a "violent
                  criminal",
                  > > and have suggested that I receive psychiatric counselling. Yet,
                  you
                  > > make reference to a "killfile", and have even wished death upon
                  > > fellow motorists ("Die non-signalling scum"- September 23, 2005).
                  I
                  > > have expressed exasperation with the driving habits of many, and
                  > have
                  > > suggested that speed AND SAFETY are not mutually exclusive. Maybe
                  > > this is a crazy notion to you. Perhaps you could refer me to your
                  > > psychiatrist for help.
                  > >
                  > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                  > > <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what many
                  of
                  > my
                  > > > road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
                  > > > Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my
                  time
                  > > > with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my
                  killfile.
                  > (I
                  > > > _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)
                  > > >
                  > > > This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't
                  like
                  > > > speed limits, write to your state representative, not me,
                  because
                  > I
                  > > > never took any position on this list about how high or low
                  speed
                  > > > limits should be or even whether they should be posted at all.
                  > This
                  > > > discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join in
                  on
                  > > > your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.
                  > > >
                  > > > Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature
                  > > enough
                  > > > to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-to-
                  > > tail"
                  > > > and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and
                  proper
                  > > > methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem. The
                  > > latter
                  > > > indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for
                  > that,
                  > > I
                  > > > pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
                  > > > therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a result
                  > of
                  > > > such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a
                  > psychiatrist.
                  > > > There's also another person who might be able to help you to
                  grow
                  > > up;
                  > > > however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of
                  your
                  > > > displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time
                  > peeking
                  > > in
                  > > > your old driver's manual about following distance laws. Reading
                  > the
                  > > > dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.
                  > > >
                  > > > - TF
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
                  <roadrage48131@y...>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to
                  > where
                  > > > > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner
                  > to "terrorism".
                  > > > Much
                  > > > > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and
                  > buzz-
                  > > > > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even
                  more
                  > > the
                  > > > > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an
                  > > arbitrary
                  > > > > figure, not taking into account road and traffic conditions.
                  > > Also,
                  > > > it
                  > > > > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the lowest
                  > > common
                  > > > > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a potentially
                  > > lethal
                  > > > > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for
                  states
                  > > to
                  > > > > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road,
                  taking
                  > > > > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads
                  > would
                  > > be
                  > > > > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level,
                  without
                  > > fear
                  > > > > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided
                  their
                  > > > > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of
                  > > itself,
                  > > > > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be
                  falling
                  > > out
                  > > > > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers
                  to
                  > > > admire
                  > > > > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along
                  with
                  > > > this
                  > > > > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to
                  > stress
                  > > > the
                  > > > > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems,
                  driver
                  > > > > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where
                  speed
                  > > was
                  > > > a
                  > > > > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at the
                  > > > driver.
                  > > > > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to
                  safely
                  > > > > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case,
                  however,
                  > > the
                  > > > > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be held
                  > > > > accountable to the fullest extent.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost
                  > > <tomfrostjr@y...>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and
                  Mr.
                  > > > > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of history,
                  > now
                  > > > > that I've submitted this idea on
                  > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > - TF
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?node=13768
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where
                  > we're
                  > > > > searching for the best new American idea since, well, sliced
                  > > bread.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win
                  > $100,000!
                  > > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Tom Frost Jr.
                  The Autobahn is a rare example of success, of a type that I _don t_ have any bone to pick with, of bringing racetrack-like driving onto public roads. (I too
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The Autobahn is a rare example of success, of a type that I _don't_
                    have any bone to pick with, of bringing racetrack-like driving onto
                    public roads. (I too haven't been there, and am therefore basing my
                    comments about Germany on snippets that I've heard from people who
                    have been there.) I suspect that the apparent success there has been
                    brought about by two factors, both of which are equally important:

                    1. Like you say, they have much more extensive education of drivers
                    there than what America bothers with. Well anybody who knows me,
                    knows that I too am a strong advocate of much more extensive
                    education of American drivers, and that's a whole 'nother thread that
                    we can do sometime.

                    2. It's not only the _amount_ of driver education, but also _what_ is
                    taught, that counts: At least one thing that Germany's driver-
                    education system apparently includes that ours doesn't, is respect
                    for speed limits where such limits do exist. People who have visited
                    Germany have told me that when you exit the Autobahn and enter an
                    area with speed limits, you get all kinds of scolding from your
                    fellow motorists if you speed an iota.

                    That's one indication that German motorists are taught something that
                    you apparently have a problem with: Even with the best drivers,
                    accommodation of the fastest speeds simply isn't possible on all
                    roads, because the engineering and building of a road for fast speeds
                    is more expensive than it is for slow speeds (_slower_ traffic, given
                    equally-competent drivers, _not_ needing any such pampering), and
                    therefore, naturally, only the more-major roads are going to be high-
                    speed. The Autobahn successfully accommodates all speeds because the
                    drivers are competent _and_ the road is one of these relatively-few
                    roads where taxpayers could afford to concentrate resources on
                    building a sufficient number of passing lanes, etc., to allow, with
                    relatively few exceptions, the faster drivers to proceed without
                    infringing on the right of way of the slower drivers.

                    In short, the most basic thing that German drivers apparently know
                    that you don't, is the first-come-first-served principle - which,
                    regarding overtaking, means that the overtaken driver's right of way
                    is more basic than that of the overtaking driver as long as the
                    overtaken driver is proceeding in a straight line. You can whine all
                    you want about how this means that on the less-expensive-to-build
                    majority of roads, everybody will often be restricted to the speed of
                    the "lowest common denominator" driver (as if I'm a "lower" class
                    citizen than you just because I choose to drive lower-horsepower-to-
                    weight-ratio, and hence slower, vehicles - which is sort of ironic
                    since in your post about your "NASCAR" organization's rules a while
                    back, you seemed to _advocate_, as I do, a trend toward smaller-
                    engined vehicles). But the fact of the matter is that the first-come-
                    first-served principle is one of the most basic things that almost
                    all traffic laws are based on.

                    - TF


                    --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The only thing that I advocate is the idea that speed and safety
                    are
                    > not mutually exclusive. This is proven on a daily basis in
                    countries
                    > throughout Europe that train their drivers to a much greater
                    degree,
                    > and as a result see much improved transportation efficiency and
                    > safety. There's really no reason why the same kinds of results
                    could
                    > not be seen here, if drivers were to take the time to fully
                    > understand their vehicles, and the handling characteristics
                    thereof.
                    >
                    > Also, a little common sense and mutual respect on the roadways
                    would
                    > go a long way. Although I have never had the privilege of driving
                    the
                    > Autobahn, I have talked to many who have, and have read extensively
                    > on the subject. On the Autobahn, recommended speeds are posted (not
                    > speed limits- in most areas, anyway), and it is illegal to block
                    > faster traffic. This permits vehicles operated at vastly differing
                    > speeds to all get to their destinations relatively safely. I'm sure
                    > the professionalism of the average German driver far exceeds that
                    of
                    > most American drivers. It would have to, when you're dealing with
                    > such variations in speed. Here, we have been lulled into bored
                    > complacency by decades of the dreaded "Double Nickel". (I remember
                    > when they raised the Interstate speeds in Michigan to 70 MPH just a
                    > few years ago. People were convinced that wholesale carnage would
                    be
                    > the result. The funny thing is, that never happened. If anything, I
                    > think it actually made drivers focus more on their driving, and the
                    > other vehicles operating around them.)
                    >
                    > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                    > <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I was using the word "terrorism" in this context two and three
                    > > decades before the "Patriot Act" came along. Therefore, I suggest
                    > > that you study it some more. And while you're at it, please add
                    > > another word to your to-study list also - one that _is_ being
                    > milked
                    > > out of context, by you: "Killfile".
                    > >
                    > > Driving isn't as simple as race track skills. Right off the bat,
                    > when
                    > > you leave the pampered confines of that race track and drive out
                    > here
                    > > in the real world there's a whole different set of rules, and the
                    > > most important element of those rules is discipline, which you
                    > ain't
                    > > got.
                    > >
                    > > But I agree that we can leave your mother out of it. I went there
                    > > because "birds of a feather flock together" is one of the most
                    > > valuable life lessons that _my_ mother taught _me_. The relevence
                    > > (which I guess you missed) of "birds of a feather flock
                    together",
                    > is
                    > > that you can be found in the list archives cuddling up with at
                    > least
                    > > one member who advocates using one's vehicle as a weapon against
                    > > one's fellow road users.
                    > >
                    > > - TF
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > "Terrorism" is one of those words in today's lexicon that has
                    > taken
                    > > > on a connotation far exceeding Mr. Webster's definition. I'm
                    sure
                    > > you
                    > > > understand that, and used that word specifically to incite
                    > > reaction.
                    > > > My reference to the so-called "Patriot Act" was not an attempt
                    to
                    > > > undermine your patriotism in any way. I suggest you re-read my
                    > > > previous posting for clarification. You seem to have a knack
                    for
                    > > > taking people's submitted thoughts out of context. As for my
                    > > > perceived lack of maturity, be advised that ANY attack on a
                    > family
                    > > > member will be met with the same intensity. If that is an
                    > > indication
                    > > > of immaturity to you, then so be it.
                    > > >
                    > > > As for my enjoyment of motoring, true, I'm not much of a Sunday-
                    > > > driver, take-in-the-scenery kind of guy. I do, however, enjoy
                    the
                    > > > experience of becoming one with the machine. I enjoy the
                    various
                    > > > sights, feelings and sounds of the experience- the brisk and
                    > steady
                    > > > climb of the tachometer, the sound of the exhaust note while
                    > > > accelerating and shifting, the exhilaration of skillfully
                    > > negotiating
                    > > > a high-speed corner, the feeling that the car is an extension
                    of
                    > > > myself. For me, this is the very essence of the driving
                    > experience.
                    > > I
                    > > > appreciate your concern, however.
                    > > >
                    > > > Lastly, you have previously referred to me as a "violent
                    > criminal",
                    > > > and have suggested that I receive psychiatric counselling. Yet,
                    > you
                    > > > make reference to a "killfile", and have even wished death upon
                    > > > fellow motorists ("Die non-signalling scum"- September 23,
                    2005).
                    > I
                    > > > have expressed exasperation with the driving habits of many,
                    and
                    > > have
                    > > > suggested that speed AND SAFETY are not mutually exclusive.
                    Maybe
                    > > > this is a crazy notion to you. Perhaps you could refer me to
                    your
                    > > > psychiatrist for help.
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                    > > > <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what many
                    > of
                    > > my
                    > > > > road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
                    > > > > Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste my
                    > time
                    > > > > with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my
                    > killfile.
                    > > (I
                    > > > > _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't
                    > like
                    > > > > speed limits, write to your state representative, not me,
                    > because
                    > > I
                    > > > > never took any position on this list about how high or low
                    > speed
                    > > > > limits should be or even whether they should be posted at
                    all.
                    > > This
                    > > > > discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join
                    in
                    > on
                    > > > > your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not mature
                    > > > enough
                    > > > > to have an intelligent discussion about this. Stacking "nose-
                    to-
                    > > > tail"
                    > > > > and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and
                    > proper
                    > > > > methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem.
                    The
                    > > > latter
                    > > > > indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and for
                    > > that,
                    > > > I
                    > > > > pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, and
                    > > > > therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a
                    result
                    > > of
                    > > > > such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a
                    > > psychiatrist.
                    > > > > There's also another person who might be able to help you to
                    > grow
                    > > > up;
                    > > > > however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of
                    > your
                    > > > > displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time
                    > > peeking
                    > > > in
                    > > > > your old driver's manual about following distance laws.
                    Reading
                    > > the
                    > > > > dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > - TF
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
                    > <roadrage48131@y...>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get to
                    > > where
                    > > > > > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner
                    > > to "terrorism".
                    > > > > Much
                    > > > > > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics and
                    > > buzz-
                    > > > > > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit even
                    > more
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an
                    > > > arbitrary
                    > > > > > figure, not taking into account road and traffic
                    conditions.
                    > > > Also,
                    > > > > it
                    > > > > > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the
                    lowest
                    > > > common
                    > > > > > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a
                    potentially
                    > > > lethal
                    > > > > > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for
                    > states
                    > > > to
                    > > > > > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road,
                    > taking
                    > > > > > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these roads
                    > > would
                    > > > be
                    > > > > > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level,
                    > without
                    > > > fear
                    > > > > > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided
                    > their
                    > > > > > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and of
                    > > > itself,
                    > > > > > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be
                    > falling
                    > > > out
                    > > > > > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car drivers
                    > to
                    > > > > admire
                    > > > > > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go along
                    > with
                    > > > > this
                    > > > > > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to
                    > > stress
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems,
                    > driver
                    > > > > > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where
                    > speed
                    > > > was
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at
                    the
                    > > > > driver.
                    > > > > > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to
                    > safely
                    > > > > > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case,
                    > however,
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be
                    held
                    > > > > > accountable to the fullest extent.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost
                    > > > <tomfrostjr@y...>
                    > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's and
                    > Mr.
                    > > > > > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of
                    history,
                    > > now
                    > > > > > that I've submitted this idea on
                    > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > - TF
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?
                    node=13768
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com, where
                    > > we're
                    > > > > > searching for the best new American idea since, well,
                    sliced
                    > > > bread.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win
                    > > $100,000!
                    > > > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Jim
                    From my understanding, what you say is true about the zealous enforcement of speed limits in residential and business areas, which is as it should be. I mean,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 16, 2005
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                      From my understanding, what you say is true about the zealous
                      enforcement of speed limits in residential and business areas, which
                      is as it should be. I mean, it makes sense to maintain a slower flow
                      of traffic when there are pedestrians involved. Also, their roads are
                      maintained to an incredible degree, unlike the appalling condition of
                      most of our roadways (at least where I'm at). Of course, from what I
                      understand, they pay a pretty hefty fuel tax to keep their roads in
                      such immaculate condition.

                      By my reference to a "lowest common denominator", I didn't mean to
                      imply that anyone was a second-class citizen merely because they
                      choose to drive at a lower speed. The problem that I was referring to
                      was the fact that you have everything from supercharged sports cars
                      to freshly-minted drivers sharing the same lane of traffic for miles
                      on end, which makes life very frustrating for all involved. (I
                      remember when I first got my license. I felt like I was in
                      EVERYBODY'S way!) At least with two lanes of traffic in either
                      direction, faster and slower traffic can conceivably co-exist safely,
                      and expedite the flow of traffic.

                      I agree that it must seem pretty ironic that I am proposing smaller-
                      displacement engines. I believe, however, that continuing to
                      highlight decades-old technology is not really furthering the sport.
                      The push to smaller-displacement engines would necessitate the
                      infusion of higher technology, and would increase the durability of
                      these engines. These developments could then be directly correlated
                      to their street counterparts. Another interesting application, I
                      think, would be the use of Continuously Variable Transmissions in
                      motorsport applications. I would think that this technology would be
                      of interest to racing teams, as these transmissions theoretically
                      keep the engine in the proper power range at all times, without the
                      possibility of missed gear changes.

                      Just for the record, in case I might have misled anyone, my little
                      ZX2 has just a little four-banger without any kind of tweaking. I
                      have lowered and stiffened the suspension, increased the track, and
                      improved the brakes a bit. I think these are the most important areas
                      of the vehicle to concentrate on for street applications, as opposed
                      to all-out horsepower increases. Just my opinion.

                      --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                      <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The Autobahn is a rare example of success, of a type that I _don't_
                      > have any bone to pick with, of bringing racetrack-like driving onto
                      > public roads. (I too haven't been there, and am therefore basing my
                      > comments about Germany on snippets that I've heard from people who
                      > have been there.) I suspect that the apparent success there has
                      been
                      > brought about by two factors, both of which are equally important:
                      >
                      > 1. Like you say, they have much more extensive education of drivers
                      > there than what America bothers with. Well anybody who knows me,
                      > knows that I too am a strong advocate of much more extensive
                      > education of American drivers, and that's a whole 'nother thread
                      that
                      > we can do sometime.
                      >
                      > 2. It's not only the _amount_ of driver education, but also _what_
                      is
                      > taught, that counts: At least one thing that Germany's driver-
                      > education system apparently includes that ours doesn't, is respect
                      > for speed limits where such limits do exist. People who have
                      visited
                      > Germany have told me that when you exit the Autobahn and enter an
                      > area with speed limits, you get all kinds of scolding from your
                      > fellow motorists if you speed an iota.
                      >
                      > That's one indication that German motorists are taught something
                      that
                      > you apparently have a problem with: Even with the best drivers,
                      > accommodation of the fastest speeds simply isn't possible on all
                      > roads, because the engineering and building of a road for fast
                      speeds
                      > is more expensive than it is for slow speeds (_slower_ traffic,
                      given
                      > equally-competent drivers, _not_ needing any such pampering), and
                      > therefore, naturally, only the more-major roads are going to be
                      high-
                      > speed. The Autobahn successfully accommodates all speeds because
                      the
                      > drivers are competent _and_ the road is one of these relatively-few
                      > roads where taxpayers could afford to concentrate resources on
                      > building a sufficient number of passing lanes, etc., to allow, with
                      > relatively few exceptions, the faster drivers to proceed without
                      > infringing on the right of way of the slower drivers.
                      >
                      > In short, the most basic thing that German drivers apparently know
                      > that you don't, is the first-come-first-served principle - which,
                      > regarding overtaking, means that the overtaken driver's right of
                      way
                      > is more basic than that of the overtaking driver as long as the
                      > overtaken driver is proceeding in a straight line. You can whine
                      all
                      > you want about how this means that on the less-expensive-to-build
                      > majority of roads, everybody will often be restricted to the speed
                      of
                      > the "lowest common denominator" driver (as if I'm a "lower" class
                      > citizen than you just because I choose to drive lower-horsepower-to-
                      > weight-ratio, and hence slower, vehicles - which is sort of ironic
                      > since in your post about your "NASCAR" organization's rules a while
                      > back, you seemed to _advocate_, as I do, a trend toward smaller-
                      > engined vehicles). But the fact of the matter is that the first-
                      come-
                      > first-served principle is one of the most basic things that almost
                      > all traffic laws are based on.
                      >
                      > - TF
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <roadrage48131@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The only thing that I advocate is the idea that speed and safety
                      > are
                      > > not mutually exclusive. This is proven on a daily basis in
                      > countries
                      > > throughout Europe that train their drivers to a much greater
                      > degree,
                      > > and as a result see much improved transportation efficiency and
                      > > safety. There's really no reason why the same kinds of results
                      > could
                      > > not be seen here, if drivers were to take the time to fully
                      > > understand their vehicles, and the handling characteristics
                      > thereof.
                      > >
                      > > Also, a little common sense and mutual respect on the roadways
                      > would
                      > > go a long way. Although I have never had the privilege of driving
                      > the
                      > > Autobahn, I have talked to many who have, and have read
                      extensively
                      > > on the subject. On the Autobahn, recommended speeds are posted
                      (not
                      > > speed limits- in most areas, anyway), and it is illegal to block
                      > > faster traffic. This permits vehicles operated at vastly
                      differing
                      > > speeds to all get to their destinations relatively safely. I'm
                      sure
                      > > the professionalism of the average German driver far exceeds that
                      > of
                      > > most American drivers. It would have to, when you're dealing with
                      > > such variations in speed. Here, we have been lulled into bored
                      > > complacency by decades of the dreaded "Double Nickel". (I
                      remember
                      > > when they raised the Interstate speeds in Michigan to 70 MPH just
                      a
                      > > few years ago. People were convinced that wholesale carnage would
                      > be
                      > > the result. The funny thing is, that never happened. If anything,
                      I
                      > > think it actually made drivers focus more on their driving, and
                      the
                      > > other vehicles operating around them.)
                      > >
                      > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                      > > <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I was using the word "terrorism" in this context two and three
                      > > > decades before the "Patriot Act" came along. Therefore, I
                      suggest
                      > > > that you study it some more. And while you're at it, please add
                      > > > another word to your to-study list also - one that _is_ being
                      > > milked
                      > > > out of context, by you: "Killfile".
                      > > >
                      > > > Driving isn't as simple as race track skills. Right off the
                      bat,
                      > > when
                      > > > you leave the pampered confines of that race track and drive
                      out
                      > > here
                      > > > in the real world there's a whole different set of rules, and
                      the
                      > > > most important element of those rules is discipline, which you
                      > > ain't
                      > > > got.
                      > > >
                      > > > But I agree that we can leave your mother out of it. I went
                      there
                      > > > because "birds of a feather flock together" is one of the most
                      > > > valuable life lessons that _my_ mother taught _me_. The
                      relevence
                      > > > (which I guess you missed) of "birds of a feather flock
                      > together",
                      > > is
                      > > > that you can be found in the list archives cuddling up with at
                      > > least
                      > > > one member who advocates using one's vehicle as a weapon
                      against
                      > > > one's fellow road users.
                      > > >
                      > > > - TF
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
                      <roadrage48131@y...>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "Terrorism" is one of those words in today's lexicon that has
                      > > taken
                      > > > > on a connotation far exceeding Mr. Webster's definition. I'm
                      > sure
                      > > > you
                      > > > > understand that, and used that word specifically to incite
                      > > > reaction.
                      > > > > My reference to the so-called "Patriot Act" was not an
                      attempt
                      > to
                      > > > > undermine your patriotism in any way. I suggest you re-read
                      my
                      > > > > previous posting for clarification. You seem to have a knack
                      > for
                      > > > > taking people's submitted thoughts out of context. As for my
                      > > > > perceived lack of maturity, be advised that ANY attack on a
                      > > family
                      > > > > member will be met with the same intensity. If that is an
                      > > > indication
                      > > > > of immaturity to you, then so be it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > As for my enjoyment of motoring, true, I'm not much of a
                      Sunday-
                      > > > > driver, take-in-the-scenery kind of guy. I do, however, enjoy
                      > the
                      > > > > experience of becoming one with the machine. I enjoy the
                      > various
                      > > > > sights, feelings and sounds of the experience- the brisk and
                      > > steady
                      > > > > climb of the tachometer, the sound of the exhaust note while
                      > > > > accelerating and shifting, the exhilaration of skillfully
                      > > > negotiating
                      > > > > a high-speed corner, the feeling that the car is an extension
                      > of
                      > > > > myself. For me, this is the very essence of the driving
                      > > experience.
                      > > > I
                      > > > > appreciate your concern, however.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lastly, you have previously referred to me as a "violent
                      > > criminal",
                      > > > > and have suggested that I receive psychiatric counselling.
                      Yet,
                      > > you
                      > > > > make reference to a "killfile", and have even wished death
                      upon
                      > > > > fellow motorists ("Die non-signalling scum"- September 23,
                      > 2005).
                      > > I
                      > > > > have expressed exasperation with the driving habits of many,
                      > and
                      > > > have
                      > > > > suggested that speed AND SAFETY are not mutually exclusive.
                      > Maybe
                      > > > > this is a crazy notion to you. Perhaps you could refer me to
                      > your
                      > > > > psychiatrist for help.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Frost Jr."
                      > > > > <tomfrostjr@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > My buzzword, "terrorism", is based on the _fact_ of what
                      many
                      > > of
                      > > > my
                      > > > > > road rage opponents are doing. Yours, "Patriot Act", isn't.
                      > > > > > Therefore, I hereby warn you that the next time you waste
                      my
                      > > time
                      > > > > > with monopoly-on-patriotism crap, you'll wind up in my
                      > > killfile.
                      > > > (I
                      > > > > > _almost_ put you there _this_ time.)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > This discussion isn't even about speed limits. If you don't
                      > > like
                      > > > > > speed limits, write to your state representative, not me,
                      > > because
                      > > > I
                      > > > > > never took any position on this list about how high or low
                      > > speed
                      > > > > > limits should be or even whether they should be posted at
                      > all.
                      > > > This
                      > > > > > discussion, rather, is about my right to choose not to join
                      > in
                      > > on
                      > > > > > your crowd's "civil" disobedience of them.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Unfortunately, you've shown once again that you're not
                      mature
                      > > > > enough
                      > > > > > to have an intelligent discussion about this.
                      Stacking "nose-
                      > to-
                      > > > > tail"
                      > > > > > and getting "feelings of rage" in response to my legal and
                      > > proper
                      > > > > > methodology of getting to my destination, is your problem.
                      > The
                      > > > > latter
                      > > > > > indicates that you don't even really enjoy motoring, and
                      for
                      > > > that,
                      > > > > I
                      > > > > > pity you. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person,
                      and
                      > > > > > therefore, I'd hate to see you get arrested or shot as a
                      > result
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > such immaturity. Therefore, I suggest that you see a
                      > > > psychiatrist.
                      > > > > > There's also another person who might be able to help you
                      to
                      > > grow
                      > > > > up;
                      > > > > > however, I don't want to "goad" you into yet another one of
                      > > your
                      > > > > > displays of immaturity. I'd rather see you spend that time
                      > > > peeking
                      > > > > in
                      > > > > > your old driver's manual about following distance laws.
                      > Reading
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > dictionary definition of "terrorism" would help too.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > - TF
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
                      > > <roadrage48131@y...>
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > It's interesting that you liken a person's desire to get
                      to
                      > > > where
                      > > > > > > he/she is going in a safe and expeditious manner
                      > > > to "terrorism".
                      > > > > > Much
                      > > > > > > like the so-called "Patriot Act", you use scare-tactics
                      and
                      > > > buzz-
                      > > > > > > words to try to impose your will on others, and limit
                      even
                      > > more
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > liberties and ideals that this nation was founded on.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The problem with a speed "limit" is that it is usually an
                      > > > > arbitrary
                      > > > > > > figure, not taking into account road and traffic
                      > conditions.
                      > > > > Also,
                      > > > > > it
                      > > > > > > places the entire flow of traffic at the mercy of the
                      > lowest
                      > > > > common
                      > > > > > > denominator, stacking vehicles nose-to-tail in a
                      > potentially
                      > > > > lethal
                      > > > > > > conga line. THIS is what generates feelings of rage.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I believe a proposal that makes much better sense is for
                      > > states
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > > post a "recommended" speed for a given stretch of road,
                      > > taking
                      > > > > > > traffic flow into account. Person's travelling these
                      roads
                      > > > would
                      > > > > be
                      > > > > > > given leeway to choose a speed to their comfort level,
                      > > without
                      > > > > fear
                      > > > > > > of reprisal from the law enforcement community, provided
                      > > their
                      > > > > > > actions DID NOT ENDANGER OTHER MOTORISTS. (Speed, in and
                      of
                      > > > > itself,
                      > > > > > > does not kill. If that were the case, aircraft would be
                      > > falling
                      > > > > out
                      > > > > > > of the sky every day, and we would have no race car
                      drivers
                      > > to
                      > > > > > admire
                      > > > > > > for their talent behind the wheel.) Of course, to go
                      along
                      > > with
                      > > > > > this
                      > > > > > > newfound luxury, driver's education courses would have to
                      > > > stress
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > importance of vehicle maintenance, knowledge of systems,
                      > > driver
                      > > > > > > ettiquette, and handling at higher speeds.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Now, having said all that, should an accident occur where
                      > > speed
                      > > > > was
                      > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > proven factor, BY ALL MEANS the book should be thrown at
                      > the
                      > > > > > driver.
                      > > > > > > Obviously, for whatever reason, the driver was unable to
                      > > safely
                      > > > > > > control his vehicle at the higher speed. In that case,
                      > > however,
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > driver chose to take that responsibility, and should be
                      > held
                      > > > > > > accountable to the fullest extent.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, Tom Frost
                      > > > > <tomfrostjr@y...>
                      > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > The RoadRagersPage list incrowd's (e.g. Mr. Cooper's
                      and
                      > > Mr.
                      > > > > > > Larcom's) terrorism, will soon be on the ash heap of
                      > history,
                      > > > now
                      > > > > > > that I've submitted this idea on
                      > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > - TF
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/mailer/click/3425?
                      > node=13768
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > This message was sent via www.SinceSlicedBread.com,
                      where
                      > > > we're
                      > > > > > > searching for the best new American idea since, well,
                      > sliced
                      > > > > bread.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Check out the ideas, or add your own -- you could win
                      > > > $100,000!
                      > > > > > > > http://www.sinceslicedbread.com
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • thomas cooper
                      i think improving ur breaks and tweeking them would be the best thing going 4 u since all u do is ride them being that ur such a skidish driver possibly even
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 24, 2005
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                        i think improving ur breaks and tweeking them would be the best thing going 4 u since all u do is ride them being that ur such a skidish driver possibly even putting u in uhgo with a roll cage and a 4 point harness would be best or what would be even better revoking ur drivers lisc and give u a permanant bus pass seeing that ur mentallity is that of a socialist of the far left......


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                        Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

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                      • Jim
                        WHAT!!? Where is THAT coming from? I ve never been accused of being a skittish driver! I just think you get more bang for the buck by making modifications to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 26, 2005
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                          WHAT!!? Where is THAT coming from? I've never been accused of being a
                          skittish driver! I just think you get more "bang for the buck" by
                          making modifications to the brakes and suspension than you would
                          pouring lots of money into the engine for a relatively small
                          horsepower gain. Lightening the overall weight of the vehicle would
                          also help the power-to-weight ratio with no additional expense. I
                          think it's all about managing the power you've got available.

                          --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, thomas cooper
                          <thomashcooper2001@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > i think improving ur breaks and tweeking them would be the best
                          thing going 4 u since all u do is ride them being that ur such a
                          skidish driver possibly even putting u in uhgo with a roll cage and a
                          4 point harness would be best or what would be even better revoking
                          ur drivers lisc and give u a permanant bus pass seeing that ur
                          mentallity is that of a socialist of the far left......
                          >
                          >
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                          > Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Jim
                          I guess I m wondering, also, where the socialist of the far left reference fits in. I don t understand what would prompt that sort of response. ... thing
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 26, 2005
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                            I guess I'm wondering, also, where the "socialist of the far left"
                            reference fits in. I don't understand what would prompt that sort of
                            response.

                            --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, thomas cooper
                            <thomashcooper2001@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > i think improving ur breaks and tweeking them would be the best
                            thing going 4 u since all u do is ride them being that ur such a
                            skidish driver possibly even putting u in uhgo with a roll cage and a
                            4 point harness would be best or what would be even better revoking
                            ur drivers lisc and give u a permanant bus pass seeing that ur
                            mentallity is that of a socialist of the far left......
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Tom Frost Jr.
                            This website is related to your cause: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TrollCivilLibertiesUnion - TF ... thing going 4 u since all u do is ride them being that
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 30, 2005
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                              This website is related to your cause:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TrollCivilLibertiesUnion

                              - TF


                              --- In roadragerspage@yahoogroups.com, thomas cooper
                              <thomashcooper2001@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > i think improving ur breaks and tweeking them would be the best
                              thing going 4 u since all u do is ride them being that ur such a
                              skidish driver possibly even putting u in uhgo with a roll cage and a
                              4 point harness would be best or what would be even better revoking ur
                              drivers lisc and give u a permanant bus pass seeing that ur mentallity
                              is that of a socialist of the far left......
                              >
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