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What type of steel are you using?

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  • Trevor
    Hi Ranulf, Welcome to the group. If you are having problems using charcoal to normalize your rings, you might want to try using a propane torch, which will
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2007
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      Hi Ranulf,

      Welcome to the group.
      If you are having problems using charcoal to normalize your rings, you
      might want to try using a propane torch, which will definitely get
      your rings hot enough to glow red. This article at the Maille
      Artisans International League highlights the procedure:
      http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868

      Also, what kind of wire are you using? Galvanized steel is the most
      common wire, but releases toxic fumes when heated, so low carbon steel
      is probably your best bet (mainly because wrought iron wire is
      expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky, you might be able to
      find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I use, and not have to
      anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch bits could break if
      the wire is too hard.

      Trevor


      --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com, "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hello all, I have been making maille for several years now and have
      > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I have done research
      > and have learned the tools needed and the process to be followed but
      > am unsure about some of the details. Part of this deals with
      > modifying the tools but that is more about my skills in modifying
      > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main problem is I'm not sure
      > exactly how to go about annealing the rings prior to flattening
      > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first batch of practice
      > rings right now but have serious doubts as to whether or not my
      > methods will work. I have literally placed rings on a hanger into
      > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit the fire. I will
      > leave the rings set till the coals burn out but will this heat the
      > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings are in the middle of a
      > small pile of coals (starting small with thirty or fourty rings) I
      > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull them out of the fire
      > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where near red. I know that
      > in the end, results matter and not opinions but I would like to know
      > if this method is workable or if I should try something else.
      >
      > Ranulf
      >
    • ranulfmayle
      I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because it is what I have on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am taking precautions. I am looking for a
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2007
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        I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because it is what I have
        on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am taking
        precautions. I am looking for a supplier for low carbon steel wire
        right now as I would like to make my hauberk and coif reasonably
        close to period. Someone else has already told me about the propane
        torch trick, I just dont feel comfortable trying it with the galvy
        so will wait till I have proper materials or will at least burn the
        zinc off outside in the fire pit before hand.




        --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com, "Trevor" <tharreosksifos@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Ranulf,
        >
        > Welcome to the group.
        > If you are having problems using charcoal to normalize your rings,
        you
        > might want to try using a propane torch, which will definitely get
        > your rings hot enough to glow red. This article at the Maille
        > Artisans International League highlights the procedure:
        > http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868
        >
        > Also, what kind of wire are you using? Galvanized steel is the
        most
        > common wire, but releases toxic fumes when heated, so low carbon
        steel
        > is probably your best bet (mainly because wrought iron wire is
        > expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky, you might be able
        to
        > find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I use, and not have to
        > anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch bits could break if
        > the wire is too hard.
        >
        > Trevor
        >
        >
        > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com, "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello all, I have been making maille for several years now and
        have
        > > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I have done
        research
        > > and have learned the tools needed and the process to be followed
        but
        > > am unsure about some of the details. Part of this deals with
        > > modifying the tools but that is more about my skills in
        modifying
        > > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main problem is I'm not sure
        > > exactly how to go about annealing the rings prior to flattening
        > > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first batch of
        practice
        > > rings right now but have serious doubts as to whether or not my
        > > methods will work. I have literally placed rings on a hanger
        into
        > > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit the fire. I will
        > > leave the rings set till the coals burn out but will this heat
        the
        > > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings are in the middle
        of a
        > > small pile of coals (starting small with thirty or fourty rings)
        I
        > > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull them out of the
        fire
        > > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where near red. I know
        that
        > > in the end, results matter and not opinions but I would like to
        know
        > > if this method is workable or if I should try something else.
        > >
        > > Ranulf
        > >
        >
      • julio del Junco Funes
        Is 14 gauge like 2 mm thick? If it is so, I think will be better 18 gauge or 16 gauge. I make the hole with a lot of difficult in 14 gauge ring and it is
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 2007
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          Is 14 gauge like 2 mm thick? If it is so, I think will be better 18 gauge or 16 gauge. I make the hole with a lot of difficult in 14 gauge ring and it is stranger in period..
          I buy my wire in stores for builders and so, and the wire is very soft and cheap.
          Julio

          ranulfmayle <ranulfmayle@...> escribió:
          I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because it is what I have
          on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am taking
          precautions. I am looking for a supplier for low carbon steel wire
          right now as I would like to make my hauberk and coif reasonably
          close to period. Someone else has already told me about the propane
          torch trick, I just dont feel comfortable trying it with the galvy
          so will wait till I have proper materials or will at least burn the
          zinc off outside in the fire pit before hand.

          --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com, "Trevor" <tharreosksifos@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Ranulf,
          >
          > Welcome to the group.
          > If you are having problems using charcoal to normalize your rings,
          you
          > might want to try using a propane torch, which will definitely get
          > your rings hot enough to glow red. This article at the Maille
          > Artisans International League highlights the procedure:
          > http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868
          >
          > Also, what kind of wire are you using? Galvanized steel is the
          most
          > common wire, but releases toxic fumes when heated, so low carbon
          steel
          > is probably your best bet (mainly because wrought iron wire is
          > expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky, you might be able
          to
          > find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I use, and not have to
          > anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch bits could break if
          > the wire is too hard.
          >
          > Trevor
          >
          >
          > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com, "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello all, I have been making maille for several years now and
          have
          > > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I have done
          research
          > > and have learned the tools needed and the process to be followed
          but
          > > am unsure about some of the details. Part of this deals with
          > > modifying the tools but that is more about my skills in
          modifying
          > > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main problem is I'm not sure
          > > exactly how to go about annealing the rings prior to flattening
          > > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first batch of
          practice
          > > rings right now but have serious doubts as to whether or not my
          > > methods will work. I have literally placed rings on a hanger
          into
          > > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit the fire. I will
          > > leave the rings set till the coals burn out but will this heat
          the
          > > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings are in the middle
          of a
          > > small pile of coals (starting small with thirty or fourty rings)
          I
          > > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull them out of the
          fire
          > > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where near red. I know
          that
          > > in the end, results matter and not opinions but I would like to
          know
          > > if this method is workable or if I should try something else.
          > >
          > > Ranulf
          > >
          >





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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • William Tweel
          Hi Ranulf. PLEASE do not anneal galvanized steel. The fumes are just too toxic, even outside. Below is a link to a steel supplier I get my wire from. I was
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Ranulf. PLEASE do not anneal galvanized steel.
            The fumes are just too toxic, even outside. Below is
            a link to a steel supplier I get my wire from. I was
            unable to link the exact page, but simply type in the
            search box annealed steel, black oxide and you want
            either .041 or .048 diameter steel. I use the large
            gauge b/c it seems to work better. For the .048" the
            product numbers are 8870K32 for 1lb and 8870K52 for
            the 5lber. I am usuming you live in the U.S. as this
            is a U.S. based company. I still anneal the rings,
            but this wire has never failed me, and I have used it
            for 10's of thousands of rings. Great people there
            too.

            William.



            http://www.mcmaster.com/
            --- ranulfmayle <ranulfmayle@...> wrote:

            > I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because
            > it is what I have
            > on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am
            > taking
            > precautions. I am looking for a supplier for low
            > carbon steel wire
            > right now as I would like to make my hauberk and
            > coif reasonably
            > close to period. Someone else has already told me
            > about the propane
            > torch trick, I just dont feel comfortable trying it
            > with the galvy
            > so will wait till I have proper materials or will at
            > least burn the
            > zinc off outside in the fire pit before hand.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com, "Trevor"
            > <tharreosksifos@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Ranulf,
            > >
            > > Welcome to the group.
            > > If you are having problems using charcoal to
            > normalize your rings,
            > you
            > > might want to try using a propane torch, which
            > will definitely get
            > > your rings hot enough to glow red. This article
            > at the Maille
            > > Artisans International League highlights the
            > procedure:
            > >
            >
            http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868
            > >
            > > Also, what kind of wire are you using? Galvanized
            > steel is the
            > most
            > > common wire, but releases toxic fumes when heated,
            > so low carbon
            > steel
            > > is probably your best bet (mainly because wrought
            > iron wire is
            > > expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky,
            > you might be able
            > to
            > > find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I use,
            > and not have to
            > > anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch
            > bits could break if
            > > the wire is too hard.
            > >
            > > Trevor
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com,
            > "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello all, I have been making maille for several
            > years now and
            > have
            > > > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I
            > have done
            > research
            > > > and have learned the tools needed and the
            > process to be followed
            > but
            > > > am unsure about some of the details. Part of
            > this deals with
            > > > modifying the tools but that is more about my
            > skills in
            > modifying
            > > > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main problem
            > is I'm not sure
            > > > exactly how to go about annealing the rings
            > prior to flattening
            > > > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first
            > batch of
            > practice
            > > > rings right now but have serious doubts as to
            > whether or not my
            > > > methods will work. I have literally placed
            > rings on a hanger
            > into
            > > > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit
            > the fire. I will
            > > > leave the rings set till the coals burn out but
            > will this heat
            > the
            > > > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings are
            > in the middle
            > of a
            > > > small pile of coals (starting small with thirty
            > or fourty rings)
            > I
            > > > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull
            > them out of the
            > fire
            > > > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where
            > near red. I know
            > that
            > > > in the end, results matter and not opinions but
            > I would like to
            > know
            > > > if this method is workable or if I should try
            > something else.
            > > >
            > > > Ranulf
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Bruce Dunkle
            An alternative to soft steel wire is iron. I couldn t get good results even with annealed soft steel and finally located a supplier in the UK that had iron
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 2, 2007
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              An alternative to soft steel wire is iron. I couldn't get good results even with annealed soft steel and finally located a supplier in the UK that had iron wire.

              www.wires.co.uk <http://www.wires.co.uk/>

              Even with this MUCH softer iron wire I still have to anneal before AND after flattening before I punch. I'm doing round rivets so I'm punching rather than piercing. To anneal I string up the rings on a wire and use a MAPP gas torch. I found regular butane to not be hot enough and/or took too long to work. You can find MAPP gas at any hardware or plumbing supply store. I just heat the rings to a cherry red, then let them air cool. With the MAPP gas its easy to overheat the rings to orange and almost white, but doing so burns a lot of the material into "scale" that flakes off when you flex the ring, so you need to keep an eye on it. For my project the iron wire was definitely what made it possible. Its also arguably more authentic than steel too - based on the time period you are recreating - but that wasn't the deciding factor for me.

              Good luck!

              Bruce



              ________________________________

              From: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Tweel
              Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 9:06 AM
              To: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Riveted Maille] Re: What type of steel are you using?



              Hi Ranulf. PLEASE do not anneal galvanized steel.
              The fumes are just too toxic, even outside. Below is
              a link to a steel supplier I get my wire from. I was
              unable to link the exact page, but simply type in the
              search box annealed steel, black oxide and you want
              either .041 or .048 diameter steel. I use the large
              gauge b/c it seems to work better. For the .048" the
              product numbers are 8870K32 for 1lb and 8870K52 for
              the 5lber. I am usuming you live in the U.S. as this
              is a U.S. based company. I still anneal the rings,
              but this wire has never failed me, and I have used it
              for 10's of thousands of rings. Great people there
              too.

              William.

              http://www.mcmaster.com/ <http://www.mcmaster.com/>
              --- ranulfmayle <ranulfmayle@... <mailto:ranulfmayle%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

              > I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because
              > it is what I have
              > on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am
              > taking
              > precautions. I am looking for a supplier for low
              > carbon steel wire
              > right now as I would like to make my hauberk and
              > coif reasonably
              > close to period. Someone else has already told me
              > about the propane
              > torch trick, I just dont feel comfortable trying it
              > with the galvy
              > so will wait till I have proper materials or will at
              > least burn the
              > zinc off outside in the fire pit before hand.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trevor"
              > <tharreosksifos@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Ranulf,
              > >
              > > Welcome to the group.
              > > If you are having problems using charcoal to
              > normalize your rings,
              > you
              > > might want to try using a propane torch, which
              > will definitely get
              > > your rings hot enough to glow red. This article
              > at the Maille
              > > Artisans International League highlights the
              > procedure:
              > >
              >
              http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868 <http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868>
              > >
              > > Also, what kind of wire are you using? Galvanized
              > steel is the
              > most
              > > common wire, but releases toxic fumes when heated,
              > so low carbon
              > steel
              > > is probably your best bet (mainly because wrought
              > iron wire is
              > > expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky,
              > you might be able
              > to
              > > find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I use,
              > and not have to
              > > anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch
              > bits could break if
              > > the wire is too hard.
              > >
              > > Trevor
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              > "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello all, I have been making maille for several
              > years now and
              > have
              > > > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I
              > have done
              > research
              > > > and have learned the tools needed and the
              > process to be followed
              > but
              > > > am unsure about some of the details. Part of
              > this deals with
              > > > modifying the tools but that is more about my
              > skills in
              > modifying
              > > > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main problem
              > is I'm not sure
              > > > exactly how to go about annealing the rings
              > prior to flattening
              > > > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first
              > batch of
              > practice
              > > > rings right now but have serious doubts as to
              > whether or not my
              > > > methods will work. I have literally placed
              > rings on a hanger
              > into
              > > > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit
              > the fire. I will
              > > > leave the rings set till the coals burn out but
              > will this heat
              > the
              > > > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings are
              > in the middle
              > of a
              > > > small pile of coals (starting small with thirty
              > or fourty rings)
              > I
              > > > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull
              > them out of the
              > fire
              > > > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where
              > near red. I know
              > that
              > > > in the end, results matter and not opinions but
              > I would like to
              > know
              > > > if this method is workable or if I should try
              > something else.
              > > >
              > > > Ranulf
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • jOHN cARLSON
              Hey Bruce I want to switch to Iron wire. Not only is it softer as you have stated, but it is also more rust resistant. This has been proven in marine use.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hey Bruce
                I want to switch to Iron wire. Not only is it softer
                as you have stated, but it is also more rust
                resistant. This has been proven in marine use. Vikings
                were using iron fastenings in their longboats. Where
                steel was used instead it fails much sooner due to
                corosion. Someone has just written a history of the
                use of iron and steel in boats. Iron good, steel bad.
                Which product from wire co. did you order Bruce? I'm
                going to switch from steel. How much did you get? Did
                it take a while to get across the pond? John Carlson
                --- Bruce Dunkle <bruce@...> wrote:

                > An alternative to soft steel wire is iron. I
                > couldn't get good results even with annealed soft
                > steel and finally located a supplier in the UK that
                > had iron wire.
                >
                > www.wires.co.uk <http://www.wires.co.uk/>
                >
                > Even with this MUCH softer iron wire I still have to
                > anneal before AND after flattening before I punch.
                > I'm doing round rivets so I'm punching rather than
                > piercing. To anneal I string up the rings on a wire
                > and use a MAPP gas torch. I found regular butane to
                > not be hot enough and/or took too long to work. You
                > can find MAPP gas at any hardware or plumbing supply
                > store. I just heat the rings to a cherry red, then
                > let them air cool. With the MAPP gas its easy to
                > overheat the rings to orange and almost white, but
                > doing so burns a lot of the material into "scale"
                > that flakes off when you flex the ring, so you need
                > to keep an eye on it. For my project the iron wire
                > was definitely what made it possible. Its also
                > arguably more authentic than steel too - based on
                > the time period you are recreating - but that wasn't
                > the deciding factor for me.
                >
                > Good luck!
                >
                > Bruce
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                >
                > From: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                > William Tweel
                > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 9:06 AM
                > To: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Riveted Maille] Re: What type of steel
                > are you using?
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Ranulf. PLEASE do not anneal galvanized steel.
                > The fumes are just too toxic, even outside. Below is
                > a link to a steel supplier I get my wire from. I was
                > unable to link the exact page, but simply type in
                > the
                > search box annealed steel, black oxide and you want
                > either .041 or .048 diameter steel. I use the large
                > gauge b/c it seems to work better. For the .048" the
                > product numbers are 8870K32 for 1lb and 8870K52 for
                > the 5lber. I am usuming you live in the U.S. as this
                > is a U.S. based company. I still anneal the rings,
                > but this wire has never failed me, and I have used
                > it
                > for 10's of thousands of rings. Great people there
                > too.
                >
                > William.
                >
                > http://www.mcmaster.com/ <http://www.mcmaster.com/>
                > --- ranulfmayle <ranulfmayle@...
                > <mailto:ranulfmayle%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                >
                > > I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because
                > > it is what I have
                > > on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am
                > > taking
                > > precautions. I am looking for a supplier for low
                > > carbon steel wire
                > > right now as I would like to make my hauberk and
                > > coif reasonably
                > > close to period. Someone else has already told me
                > > about the propane
                > > torch trick, I just dont feel comfortable trying
                > it
                > > with the galvy
                > > so will wait till I have proper materials or will
                > at
                > > least burn the
                > > zinc off outside in the fire pit before hand.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trevor"
                > > <tharreosksifos@...>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Ranulf,
                > > >
                > > > Welcome to the group.
                > > > If you are having problems using charcoal to
                > > normalize your rings,
                > > you
                > > > might want to try using a propane torch, which
                > > will definitely get
                > > > your rings hot enough to glow red. This article
                > > at the Maille
                > > > Artisans International League highlights the
                > > procedure:
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868
                >
                <http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868>
                >
                > > >
                > > > Also, what kind of wire are you using?
                > Galvanized
                > > steel is the
                > > most
                > > > common wire, but releases toxic fumes when
                > heated,
                > > so low carbon
                > > steel
                > > > is probably your best bet (mainly because
                > wrought
                > > iron wire is
                > > > expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky,
                > > you might be able
                > > to
                > > > find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I
                > use,
                > > and not have to
                > > > anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch
                > > bits could break if
                > > > the wire is too hard.
                > > >
                > > > Trevor
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                > > "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello all, I have been making maille for
                > several
                > > years now and
                > > have
                > > > > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I
                > > have done
                > > research
                > > > > and have learned the tools needed and the
                > > process to be followed
                > > but
                > > > > am unsure about some of the details. Part of
                > > this deals with
                > > > > modifying the tools but that is more about my
                > > skills in
                > > modifying
                > > > > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main
                > problem
                > > is I'm not sure
                > > > > exactly how to go about annealing the rings
                > > prior to flattening
                > > > > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first
                > > batch of
                > > practice
                > > > > rings right now but have serious doubts as to
                > > whether or not my
                > > > > methods will work. I have literally placed
                > > rings on a hanger
                > > into
                > > > > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit
                > > the fire. I will
                > > > > leave the rings set till the coals burn out
                > but
                > > will this heat
                > > the
                > > > > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings
                > are
                > > in the middle
                > > of a
                > > > > small pile of coals (starting small with
                > thirty
                > > or fourty rings)
                > > I
                > > > > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull
                > > them out of the
                > > fire
                > > > > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where
                > > near red. I know
                > > that
                > > > > in the end, results matter and not opinions
                > but
                > > I would like to
                > > know
                > > > > if this method is workable or if I should try
                > > something else.
                > > > >
                > > > > Ranulf
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                >
                === message truncated ===


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              • Bruce Dunkle
                Hi again John, Here s a copy of my invoice from 5/3/2005: Shopping Cart (Prices in British Pounds) REFERENCE DESCRIPTION
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi again John,



                  Here's a copy of my invoice from 5/3/2005:



                  Shopping Cart (Prices in British Pounds)

                  REFERENCE DESCRIPTION QUANTITY PRICE COST

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  IR1250-1000 1.250MM IRON WIRE 1000 GR (18 20 £2.50 £50.00

                  SWG

                  ==========================================================================================

                  Subtotal: £50.00

                  Shipping (Parcelforce International Datapost): £147.95

                  Total: £197.95





                  It took two or three weeks from when they shipped till it showed up, and they ended up increasing the postage to 156 pounds. Yes...I did pay three times the cost of the wire for the shipping! And the exchange rate is horrible. It's just about 2 to 1. So double the Great Britain pounds to come up with the US dollar cost. The wire is heavy and I bought 20 rolls - I needed about 40,000 rings for my project. I had bought a couple of rolls earlier to try out and was sure it was what I wanted. I was using 18 gauge wire for my 7mmOD rings. It worked great for me! I still use steel rings (from theringlord.com) when I need butted, but for riveted I greatly prefer using iron. Just my opinion, other guys on this forum know a lot more about this than I do - I just know what worked for me!



                  Good luck with it!

                  ________________________________

                  From: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jOHN cARLSON
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:23 PM
                  To: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [Riveted Maille] Re: What type of steel are you using?



                  Hey Bruce
                  I want to switch to Iron wire. Not only is it softer
                  as you have stated, but it is also more rust
                  resistant. This has been proven in marine use. Vikings
                  were using iron fastenings in their longboats. Where
                  steel was used instead it fails much sooner due to
                  corosion. Someone has just written a history of the
                  use of iron and steel in boats. Iron good, steel bad.
                  Which product from wire co. did you order Bruce? I'm
                  going to switch from steel. How much did you get? Did
                  it take a while to get across the pond? John Carlson
                  --- Bruce Dunkle <bruce@... <mailto:bruce%40akwater.com> > wrote:

                  > An alternative to soft steel wire is iron. I
                  > couldn't get good results even with annealed soft
                  > steel and finally located a supplier in the UK that
                  > had iron wire.
                  >
                  > www.wires.co.uk <http://www.wires.co.uk/ <http://www.wires.co.uk/> >
                  >
                  > Even with this MUCH softer iron wire I still have to
                  > anneal before AND after flattening before I punch.
                  > I'm doing round rivets so I'm punching rather than
                  > piercing. To anneal I string up the rings on a wire
                  > and use a MAPP gas torch. I found regular butane to
                  > not be hot enough and/or took too long to work. You
                  > can find MAPP gas at any hardware or plumbing supply
                  > store. I just heat the rings to a cherry red, then
                  > let them air cool. With the MAPP gas its easy to
                  > overheat the rings to orange and almost white, but
                  > doing so burns a lot of the material into "scale"
                  > that flakes off when you flex the ring, so you need
                  > to keep an eye on it. For my project the iron wire
                  > was definitely what made it possible. Its also
                  > arguably more authentic than steel too - based on
                  > the time period you are recreating - but that wasn't
                  > the deciding factor for me.
                  >
                  > Good luck!
                  >
                  > Bruce
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > [mailto:rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
                  > William Tweel
                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 9:06 AM
                  > To: rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [Riveted Maille] Re: What type of steel
                  > are you using?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Ranulf. PLEASE do not anneal galvanized steel.
                  > The fumes are just too toxic, even outside. Below is
                  > a link to a steel supplier I get my wire from. I was
                  > unable to link the exact page, but simply type in
                  > the
                  > search box annealed steel, black oxide and you want
                  > either .041 or .048 diameter steel. I use the large
                  > gauge b/c it seems to work better. For the .048" the
                  > product numbers are 8870K32 for 1lb and 8870K52 for
                  > the 5lber. I am usuming you live in the U.S. as this
                  > is a U.S. based company. I still anneal the rings,
                  > but this wire has never failed me, and I have used
                  > it
                  > for 10's of thousands of rings. Great people there
                  > too.
                  >
                  > William.
                  >
                  > http://www.mcmaster.com/ <http://www.mcmaster.com/> <http://www.mcmaster.com/ <http://www.mcmaster.com/> >
                  > --- ranulfmayle <ranulfmayle@... <mailto:ranulfmayle%40yahoo.com>
                  > <mailto:ranulfmayle%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                  >
                  > > I am currently using 14 guage galvy simply because
                  > > it is what I have
                  > > on hand. Yes, I am aware of the fume issue and am
                  > > taking
                  > > precautions. I am looking for a supplier for low
                  > > carbon steel wire
                  > > right now as I would like to make my hauberk and
                  > > coif reasonably
                  > > close to period. Someone else has already told me
                  > > about the propane
                  > > torch trick, I just dont feel comfortable trying
                  > it
                  > > with the galvy
                  > > so will wait till I have proper materials or will
                  > at
                  > > least burn the
                  > > zinc off outside in the fire pit before hand.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trevor"
                  > > <tharreosksifos@...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Ranulf,
                  > > >
                  > > > Welcome to the group.
                  > > > If you are having problems using charcoal to
                  > > normalize your rings,
                  > > you
                  > > > might want to try using a propane torch, which
                  > > will definitely get
                  > > > your rings hot enough to glow red. This article
                  > > at the Maille
                  > > > Artisans International League highlights the
                  > > procedure:
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868 <http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868>
                  >
                  <http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868 <http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=9868> >
                  >
                  > > >
                  > > > Also, what kind of wire are you using?
                  > Galvanized
                  > > steel is the
                  > > most
                  > > > common wire, but releases toxic fumes when
                  > heated,
                  > > so low carbon
                  > > steel
                  > > > is probably your best bet (mainly because
                  > wrought
                  > > iron wire is
                  > > > expensive and hard to find). If you are lucky,
                  > > you might be able
                  > > to
                  > > > find pre-annealed steel wire, which is what I
                  > use,
                  > > and not have to
                  > > > anneal your wire at all, though sensitive punch
                  > > bits could break if
                  > > > the wire is too hard.
                  > > >
                  > > > Trevor
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In rivetedmaille@yahoogroups.com <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:rivetedmaille%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  > > "ranulfmayle" <ranulfmayle@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello all, I have been making maille for
                  > several
                  > > years now and
                  > > have
                  > > > > decided to move up from butted to rivetted. I
                  > > have done
                  > > research
                  > > > > and have learned the tools needed and the
                  > > process to be followed
                  > > but
                  > > > > am unsure about some of the details. Part of
                  > > this deals with
                  > > > > modifying the tools but that is more about my
                  > > skills in
                  > > modifying
                  > > > > tools versus lack of knowledge. My main
                  > problem
                  > > is I'm not sure
                  > > > > exactly how to go about annealing the rings
                  > > prior to flattening
                  > > > > them. I am currently trying to anneal my first
                  > > batch of
                  > > practice
                  > > > > rings right now but have serious doubts as to
                  > > whether or not my
                  > > > > methods will work. I have literally placed
                  > > rings on a hanger
                  > > into
                  > > > > the middle of some charcoal briquettes and lit
                  > > the fire. I will
                  > > > > leave the rings set till the coals burn out
                  > but
                  > > will this heat
                  > > the
                  > > > > rings sufficiantly? Obviously, as the rings
                  > are
                  > > in the middle
                  > > of a
                  > > > > small pile of coals (starting small with
                  > thirty
                  > > or fourty rings)
                  > > I
                  > > > > cant tell if they are glowing red until I pull
                  > > them out of the
                  > > fire
                  > > > > where they definitely DO NOT appear any where
                  > > near red. I know
                  > > that
                  > > > > in the end, results matter and not opinions
                  > but
                  > > I would like to
                  > > know
                  > > > > if this method is workable or if I should try
                  > > something else.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ranulf
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  >
                  === message truncated ===

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