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Re: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

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  • George F Somsel
    Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few? george gfsomsel
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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      Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

      This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

      Loren Johns

      ------------ --------- --------- ---
      Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search..



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Barr
      Showed up fine on my new Mac (ah the zeal of a new convert :-) I suspect anyone with a True Type Greek font installed (as per recent discussions) could read
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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        Showed up fine on my new Mac (ah the zeal of a new convert :-) I
        suspect anyone with a True Type Greek font installed (as per recent
        discussions) could read it.


        David Barr
        Professor of Religion
        Chair, Departments of Religion, Philosophy, & Classics
        Wright State University
        Dayton OH 45435

        937-775-2293
        937-775-2892 (FAX)


        On Dec 18, 2007, at 1:16 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

        > Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I
        > included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?
        >
        > george
        > gfsomsel
        >
        > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        > defend the truth till death.
        >
        > - Jan Hus
        > _________
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
        > Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle
        >
        > This doesn't look much like Greek to me.
        >
        > Loren Johns
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
        > Search..
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Edmond Long
        The Greek text you send is nothing but symbols on my end. I have nothing with which I can make sense of the texts (from symbol to a Greek font) you provide.
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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          The Greek text you send is nothing but symbols on my end. I have nothing with which I can make sense of the texts (from symbol to a Greek font) you provide.

          Edmond

          George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
          Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?

          george
          gfsomsel

          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.

          - Jan Hus
          _________

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

          This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

          Loren Johns

          ------------ --------- --------- ---
          Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search..

          __________________________________________________________
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          ---------------------------------
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ian R. Brown
          Sorry George, but it ends up as gibberish on my screen. I went to the web listing of the emails, since I thought it may be just the fact that my emails are in
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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            Sorry George, but it ends up as gibberish on my screen. I went to the web
            listing of the emails, since I thought it may be just the fact that my
            emails are in plain text; unfortunately, it was gibberish there too.

            Ian Brown

            -----Original Message-----
            From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:17 PM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

            Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in
            my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?

            george
            gfsomsel

            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.

            - Jan Hus
            _________



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

            This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

            Loren Johns

            ------------ --------- --------- ---
            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search..




            ____________________________________________________________________________
            ________
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • KennethGentry@cs.com
            In a message dated 12/18/2007 6:55:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... It seems that much of first century Christian apologetics was engaging the huge, defining
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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              In a message dated 12/18/2007 6:55:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              goranson@... writes:


              > "...But AD 70 happens to be an important "period" -- as the old covenant is
              > finally closed and the new covenant is established in its place."



              > Do others who comment on Revelation make an equivalent statement?
              >
              > Would John agree?

              It seems that much of first century Christian apologetics was engaging the
              huge, defining question: What is our relationship to Israel, our forbears?

              The Christians saw themselves as taking over the function of Israel and
              continuing the proper service of God because of Israel's failure (eg., Rom 11).
              Paul's Galatian controversy is a case in point, as well as the controversy in
              Acts 15. These show the breach from a narrow Judaism and the opening of God's
              work to the Gentiles as the worship of God moves in a new direction, leaving
              behind the ceremonial food laws (Act 15) and circumcision (Gal 3) which so defined
              Israel.

              Paul calls Christianity the Israel of God (Gal 6), stating that the true Jew
              who is one inwardly (Rom 2) and that those who are baptized in Christ are the
              children of Abraham (Gal 3).

              Matthew writes that the Jews are to be cast out, leaving behind those from
              east and west who actually are in fellowship with Abraham (Mt 8:10-11). And this
              is from a book that has gentiles (magi) worshiping the new born Christ while
              all of Jerusalem feared (Mt 2). And a book which gives parable after parable
              (Mt 21-22), sign after sign (cursed fig tree; cleansed temple), and powerful
              statements (Mt 23-24) regarding the demise of Israel.

              The Synoptics all mention Jesus' desire to gather Israel together under his
              wings, only to record his lament "but you would not." They also mention the new
              wine of Christianity over against the old wineskins of Judaism.

              The widespread scholarly discussion of the parting (or "partings") of the way
              focus on this matter of Christian self-identification.

              John seems to be engaging the discussion in a dramatic way by calling those
              who go to the synagogue "liars" for calling themselves "Jews" (Rev 2:9; 3:9).
              He is holding that the Christian movement supersedes old covenant Israel, which
              has become a "synagogue of Satan" (his words, not mine!). Compare Jn 8:44:
              "You are of your father the devil." (First century rhetorical conventions would
              not work in our modern politically-correct culture.)

              As he does so, he functions like the OT prophets who strongly denounce Israel
              (Isa 1; Isa 66; Jer 2-3; Eze 2-3, 16; Hosea; etc.).

              In his Gospel (if you hold that the same author wrote the Gospel and
              Revelation, which I do) John opens by saying that Jesus came to his own but they would
              not receive him (Jn 1). He records Jesus' words that neither Jew nor
              Samaritan worship in their particular mountains would be the rule in the near future,
              but people everywhere would then worship without regard to holy places (Jn 4).


              Because Christianity was taking up the banner of the OT people of God, the
              destruction of the Temple becomes a major "divine" sign of the end of the old
              covenant. Jesus temple cleansing anticipated it; his Olivet Discourse declared
              it. The abundant heavenly temple/priestly imagery in Revelation seems designed
              to replace the earthly temple with the heavenly, just as the "new Jerusalem"
              must be replacing the old Jerusalem, where the Lord was crucified (Rev 11:8).

              In fact, the exodus motif is strongly embedded in Revelation, and appears to
              be ironic: reversing the OT imagery. The exodus originally brought Israel into
              being but now has the new Israel come out of old Israel, because old Israel
              has become Egypt (Rev 11:8; 18:4). Remember Revelation's dominant character is
              a Lamb (as at Passover). Major judgments involve plagues modeled on the
              Egyptian plagues (trumpets and bowls). Sinai-like theophanies repeatedly occur (cp.
              Exo 19). The 144,000 are marked (as were the doorposts in Egyptian bondage).
              We hear the Song of Moses on the crystal sea (Rev 15). Upon exiting
              Egypt/Jerusalem the Christians become a kingdom of priests (Ezo 19:6; cp. Rev 1:6; 20:6).
              Just as the Synoptics have Christ elevate Sodom, Nineveh and other pagan
              cities above the cities of Israel, John elevates the new Jerusalem (Christianity)
              above the old Jerusalem.

              I am convinced that John is presenting this transition from new covenant to
              old covenant in dramatic fashion -- to a people who are being persecuted by
              Jews (Rev 2:9ff; 2:9ff). The parting of the ways was, in fact, an enormous issue
              in early Christian self-identity.

              Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
              Director, GoodBirth Ministries
              <A HREF="www.goodbirthministries.com"> GoodBirth Ministrie</A>s

              Owner, KennethGentry.Com
              <A HREF="www.KennethGentry.Com"> KennethGentry.Co</A>m
              "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"

              Revelation Commentary Project
              If you would like to give toward funding my research on
              Revelation please go to<A HREF="www.KennethGentry.Com"> KennethGentry.Co</A>m then click
              on "Revelation Commentary Project."
              </HTML>


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • George F Somsel
              Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                george
                gfsomsel

                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                - Jan Hus
                _________



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle


                In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                14 Καὶ εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ νεφέλη λευκή, καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν νεφέλην καθήμενον ὅμοιον υἱὸν ἀνθρώπου, ἔχων ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ στέφανον χρυσοῦν καὶ ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ δρέπανον ὀξύ. 15 καὶ ἄλλος ἄγγελος ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ ναοῦ κράζων ἐν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τῆς νεφέλης·
                πέμψον τὸ δρέπανόν σου καὶ θέρισον, ὅτι ἦλθεν ἡ ὥρα θερίσαι, ὅτι ἐξηράνθη ὁ θερισμὸς τῆς γῆς.
                16 καὶ ἔβαλεν ὁ καθήμενος ἐπὶ τῆς νεφέλης τὸ δρέπανον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ ἐθερίσθη ἡ γῆ.

                14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                3 Καὶ δώσω τοῖς δυσὶν μάρτυσίν μου καὶ προφητεύσουσιν ἡμέρας χιλίας διακοσίας ἑξήκοντα περιβεβλημένοι σάκκους. 4 οὗτοί εἰσιν αἱ δύο ἐλαῖαι καὶ αἱ δύο λυχνίαι αἱ ἐνώπιον τοῦ κυρίου τῆς γῆς ἑστῶτες.

                3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech 4.14 that


                Οὗτοι οἱ δύο υἱοὶ τῆς πιότητος παρεστήκασιν τῷ κυρίῳ πάσης τῆς γῆς.

                hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is, however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it speaks of a δρέπανον [DREPANON] rather than βιβλίον. The reason for this divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is מְגִלָּה [MeGiL.fH or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the translator of Zechariah in the LXX read מַגָּל [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL "to skin" or "to split"] instead.


                george
                gfsomsel

                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                - Jan Hus
                _________



                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ian R. Brown
                George, What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The connection is not clear to me. Ian Brown ... From:
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                  George,

                  What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                  connection is not clear to me.

                  Ian Brown

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                  Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                  appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                  hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                  Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle


                  In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                  the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                  here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                  14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                  ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                  a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                  µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                  p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                  ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                  16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                  ??e??s?? ? ??.

                  14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                  hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                  AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                  FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                  What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                  witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                  3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s?? ?µ??a? ????a?
                  d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                  a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                  3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                  DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                  KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                  This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                  quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                  4.14 that


                  ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                  hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                  Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                  however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                  speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                  divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                  or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                  translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                  "to skin" or "to split"] instead.


                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                  ____________________________________________________________________________
                  ________
                  Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • George F Somsel
                  I m suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the reading in
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                    I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle" rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________

                    "Ian R. Brown" <irbrown@...> wrote:
                    George,

                    What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                    connection is not clear to me.

                    Ian Brown

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                    Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                    appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                    hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                    george
                    gfsomsel

                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.

                    - Jan Hus
                    _________

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                    Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                    In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                    the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                    here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                    14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                    ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                    a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                    µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                    p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                    ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                    16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                    ??e??s?? ? ??.

                    14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                    hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                    AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                    FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                    What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                    witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                    3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s?? ?µ??a? ????a?
                    d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                    a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                    3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                    DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                    KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                    This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                    quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                    4.14 that


                    ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                    hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                    Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                    however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                    speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                    divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                    or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                    translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                    "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                    george
                    gfsomsel

                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.

                    - Jan Hus
                    _________

                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                    __________________________________________________________
                    ________
                    Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                    http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

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                    george
                    gfsomsel

                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.

                    - Jan Hus
                    _________

                    ---------------------------------
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                  • Otto Erlend Nordgreen
                    Dear Kenneth Gentry, If I have understood you correctly, you think that the most natural interpretation of Rev 11 suggests that the temple in v. 1 is the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Kenneth Gentry,

                      If I have understood you correctly, you think that the "most natural interpretation" of Rev 11 suggests that the temple in v. 1 is the literal Jerusalem temple (cf. Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 173). You also see a reference in Rev 11:1-2 to the "Q-Apocalypse", as recorded by Luke 21:24 (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 175f.). Finally, you think that the measuring of the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1 "is for the preservation of its innermost aspect" (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 174).

                      However, in order to secure Rev 11:1-2 from being in conflict with the so-called "Q-Apocalypse" (cf. Matt 24:2), you argue that the measuring of the temple does not indicate the preservation of the literal Jerusalem temple after all; instead you argue that the measuring of the temple indicates the preservation of a spiritual temple (viz. the Church).

                      Thus, you do two things at the same time: First, in order to make a case for an early date of the Apocalypse (viz. in a situation 'before Jerusalem fell'), you argue that the temple in Rev 11:1-2 has to be understood as the literal Jerusalem temple still standing (in a pre-70 CE situation). Second, you argue that the measuring of the temple would indicate the preservation of a spiritual temple -- understood as the "God's new Temple, the Church" (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 174) -- not the literal Jerusalem temple. It seems to me that you have to do this because (a) you insist that in Rev 11, the act of measuring indicates preservation and (b) you do not want John's prophecy to be in conflict with the "Q-Apocalypse" (cf. Matt 24:2).

                      However, IF John wrote Rev 11 'before Jerusalem fell' and the "most natural interpretation" would indicate that the temple in Rev 11:1-2 is the literal Jerusalem temple in a pre-70 CE situation, how can you argue that John's audience would understand the measuring of this (literal Jerusalem?) temple as indicating the preservation of a spiritual temple (= the Church) rather than the literal Jerusalem temple?

                      On the other hand, IF John wrote in a situation after 70 CE, when the temple was destroyed, an identification of the temple in Rev 11 with the literal Jerusalem temple (still standing) would be out of the question; instead an identification of the temple in Rev 11 with the Church (or some other spiritual temple) would be natural. Thus, I seriously question the idea that Rev 11 can be taken as support for an early (pre-70 CE) date of the Apocalypse.


                      Regards

                      Otto E. Nordgreen
                      Oslo, Norway


                      ---------------------------------

                      Alt i ett. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk.

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                    • Edgar Krentz
                      If one used a unicode Greek font, rather than true type, then it would show up correctly In any computer that had a unicode font, such as Gentium or bwgrkl.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If one used a unicode Greek font, rather than true type, then it would show up correctly In any computer that had a unicode font, such as Gentium or bwgrkl.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com on behalf of George F Somsel
                        Sent: Tue 12/18/2007 4:29 PM
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                        Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                        george
                        gfsomsel

                        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.

                        - Jan Hus
                        _________



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                        Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle


                        In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                        14 ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ?????? ???? ????????, ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???. 15 ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????·
                        ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????, ??? ????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ???????? ? ???????? ??? ???.
                        16 ??? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ? ??.

                        14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                        What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                        3 ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ?????????????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????. 4 ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???????.

                        3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                        This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech 4.14 that


                        ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???.

                        hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                        Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is, however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it speaks of a ???????? [DREPANON] rather than ???????. The reason for this divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL "to skin" or "to split"] instead.


                        george
                        gfsomsel

                        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.

                        - Jan Hus
                        _________



                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        Yahoo! Groups Links






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • George F Somsel
                        When one uses Arial Unicode MS for Greek and SBL Hebrew for Hebrew, I would rather assume that such would qualify as unicode fonts rather that true type.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          When one uses Arial Unicode MS for Greek and SBL Hebrew for Hebrew, I would rather assume that such would qualify as unicode fonts rather that true type.

                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________



                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Edgar Krentz <ekrentz@...>
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 10:15:54 AM
                          Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                          If one used a unicode Greek font, rather than true type, then it would show up correctly In any computer that had a unicode font, such as Gentium or bwgrkl.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of George F Somsel
                          Sent: Tue 12/18/2007 4:29 PM
                          To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                          Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>
                          To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                          Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                          In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                          14 ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ?????? ???? ????????, ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???. 15 ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????·
                          ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????, ??? ????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ???????? ? ???????? ??? ???.
                          16 ??? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ? ??.

                          14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                          What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                          3 ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ???????????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ???????????? ?? ???????. 4 ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???????.

                          3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                          This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech 4.14 that


                          ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???.

                          hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                          Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is, however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it speaks of a ???????? [DREPANON] rather than ???????. The reason for this divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________

                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Christian S. Maymann
                          I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the only
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                            connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                            only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a “an allusion to Zech
                            5.2.”? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.



                            Christian Maymann

                            Copenhagen





                            _____

                            Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af George F Somsel
                            Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                            Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: RE: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle



                            I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                            followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                            reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                            rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                            the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                            GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                            sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                            usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                            connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                            simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                            Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                            LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                            george
                            gfsomsel
                            _________

                            "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:irbrown%40andrews.edu"irbrown@andrews.-edu> wrote:
                            George,

                            What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                            connection is not clear to me.

                            Ian Brown

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com
                            [mailto:HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com]
                            On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                            To: HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com
                            Subject: [revelation--list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                            Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                            appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                            hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com"gfsomsel@yahoo.-com>
                            To: HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com
                            Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                            Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                            In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                            the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                            here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                            14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                            ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                            a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                            µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                            p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                            ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                            16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                            ??e??s?? ? ??.

                            14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                            hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                            AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                            FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                            What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                            witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                            3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s?-? ?µ??a? ????a?
                            d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                            a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                            3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                            DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                            KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                            This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                            quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                            4.14 that

                            ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                            hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                            Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                            however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                            speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                            divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                            or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                            translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                            "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________

                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                            ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
                            ________
                            Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            HYPERLINK
                            "http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping"http
                            ://tools.-search.yahoo.-com/newsearch/-category.-php?category=-shopping

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________

                            ------------------------------------
                            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                            now.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • George F Somsel
                            That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed Zechariah s order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech 4.11 ff
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed Zechariah's order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech 4.11 ff and his vision of the son of man on the cloud where he picked up the sickle from Zech 5.2. Then using the word "sickle" he brought in Joel 3.13. He makes a similar word association in the transition from Re 3 with its promise that Jesus stands at the door when he then transitions to the open door in heaven.

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@...>
                              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:44:50 AM
                              Subject: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                              I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                              connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                              only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a �an allusion to Zech
                              5.2.�? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.

                              Christian Maymann

                              Copenhagen

                              _____

                              Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                              [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] P� vegne af George F Somsel
                              Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                              Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                              Emne: RE: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                              I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                              followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                              reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                              rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                              the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                              GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                              sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                              usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                              connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                              simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                              Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                              LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                              george
                              gfsomsel
                              _________

                              "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:irbrown% 40andrews. edu"irbrown@ andrews.- edu> wrote:
                              George,

                              What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                              connection is not clear to me.

                              Ian Brown

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com
                              [mailto:HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com]
                              On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                              To: HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com
                              Subject: [revelation- -list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                              Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                              appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                              hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:gfsomsel% 40yahoo.com" gfsomsel@ yahoo.-com>
                              To: HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com
                              Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                              Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                              In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                              the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                              here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                              14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??�e??? ?�????
                              ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                              a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                              �e???? t? ?a??�??? ?p? t?? ?ef????�
                              p?�??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                              ?e??s�?? t?? ???.
                              16 ?a? ?�a?e? ? ?a??�e??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                              ??e??s?? ? ??.

                              14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                              hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                              AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                              FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                              What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                              witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                              3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? �??t?s?? �?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s? -? ?�??a? ????a?
                              d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??�e�??�???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                              a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                              3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                              DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                              KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                              This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                              quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                              4.14 that

                              ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                              hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                              Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                              however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                              speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than �?�????. The reason for this
                              divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                              or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                              translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                              "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________

                              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                              ____________ -________ _-_______ __-______ ___-_____ ____-____ _____-_
                              ________
                              Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                              Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
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                              "http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping"http
                              ://tools.-search. yahoo.-com/ newsearch/ -category. -php?category= -shopping

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________

                              ------------ --------- --------- ------
                              Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                              now.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 17-12-2007
                              14:13

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                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                              21:40


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed].



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Christian S. Maymann
                              I still think, that the images in Rev 14.17ff is better explained by other texts than the sickle in Joel 3.13. I think that the main old testament text used
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I still think, that the images in Rev 14.17ff is better explained by other
                                texts than the sickle in Joel 3.13. I think that the main old testament text
                                used here is Joe 4,13 there you in the LXX text both find drepanon, lenos.
                                I agree that Zec 4 is used and followed in Rev 11, but you suggestion does
                                not explain why the author leaves Zec 4 after Rev 11,11 and that he suddenly
                                - by the use of one word drepanon - should signal to the readers that now
                                he wend back to Zec 4. I find this problem - together with the parallel with
                                Joel 3.13 - as the main weakness of your suggestion.
                                Why should the reader goes to Zech 5.2?


                                Christian


                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af George F Somsel
                                Sendt: 19. december 2007 18:32
                                Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: Re: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed
                                Zechariah's order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech
                                4.11 ff and his vision of the son of man on the cloud where he picked up the
                                sickle from Zech 5.2. Then using the word "sickle" he brought in Joel 3.13.
                                He makes a similar word association in the transition from Re 3 with its
                                promise that Jesus stands at the door when he then transitions to the open
                                door in heaven.

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@...>
                                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:44:50 AM
                                Subject: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                                connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                                only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a “an allusion to Zech
                                5.2.”? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.

                                Christian Maymann

                                Copenhagen

                                _____

                                Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne af George F Somsel
                                Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                                Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                Emne: RE: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                                followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                                reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                                rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                                the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                                GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                                sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                                usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                                connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                                simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                                Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                                LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                                george
                                gfsomsel
                                _________

                                "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:irbrown% 40andrews. edu"irbrown@ andrews.- edu> wrote:
                                George,

                                What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                                connection is not clear to me.

                                Ian Brown

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                ups.-com
                                [mailto:HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                ups.-com]
                                On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                                To: HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                ups.-com
                                Subject: [revelation- -list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                                appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                                hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:gfsomsel% 40yahoo.com" gfsomsel@ yahoo.-com>
                                To: HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                ups.-com
                                Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                                Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                                the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                                here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                                14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                                ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                                a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                                µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                                p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                                ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                                16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                                ??e??s?? ? ??.

                                14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                                hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                                AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                                FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                                What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                                witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                                3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s? -? ?µ??a? ????a?
                                d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                                a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                                3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                                DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                                KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                                This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                                quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                                4.14 that

                                ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                                hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                                Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                                however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                                speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                                divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                                or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                                translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                                "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________

                                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                                ____________ -________ _-_______ __-______ ___-_____ ____-____ _____-_
                                ________
                                Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                HYPERLINK
                                "http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                                shopping"http
                                ://tools.-search. yahoo.-com/ newsearch/ -category. -php?category= -shopping

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________

                                ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                                now.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 17-12-2007
                                14:13

                                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                21:40


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed].




                                ____________________________________________________________________________
                                ________
                                Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                                http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


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                                Yahoo! Groups Links




                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                21:40


                                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                21:40
                              • George F Somsel
                                I dislike the idea of redactions with regard to the Apocalypse since I am rather committed to the idea that it is the work of one author, but this would not
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I dislike the idea of redactions with regard to the Apocalypse since I am rather committed to the idea that it is the work of one author, but this would not preclude the redaction of the text by the same author at a different time. I tend to think that this might be what happened in this case. I think it POSSIBLE that the author has inserted material at a later time. I tend to defer to Charles with regard to his assessment of the language. He maintained that there were two hands in the Apocalypse, J(ap), whom he calls "John the Seer" and J(r), whom he calls an "unintelligent disciple." I think Charles' tendency to call this "disciple" unintelligent is that Charles wants the version of J(ap) [I don't precisely remember Charles' designation for these so feel free to substitute his designations] to conform to Charles' vision of what the book was intended to say so he concluded that J(r) had mucked it up though he wrote better Greek than J(ap). I, on
                                  the other hand, think that Charles is correct in saying that some portions of the Apocalypse exhibit a better style of Greek while denying that it was from a different hand or that it has drastically distorted the original plan of the work. The revisions did somewhat change the flow of events in the work, but did not change its plan. If this is true, then Re 14.14 ff may have followed closely upon Re 11.1-2 (or somewhat more). I still need to study this further.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________



                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@...>
                                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 1:16:25 PM
                                  Subject: SV: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  I still think, that the images in Rev 14.17ff is better explained by other
                                  texts than the sickle in Joel 3.13. I think that the main old testament text
                                  used here is Joe 4,13 there you in the LXX text both find drepanon, lenos.
                                  I agree that Zec 4 is used and followed in Rev 11, but you suggestion does
                                  not explain why the author leaves Zec 4 after Rev 11,11 and that he suddenly
                                  - by the use of one word drepanon - should signal to the readers that now
                                  he wend back to Zec 4. I find this problem - together with the parallel with
                                  Joel 3.13 - as the main weakness of your suggestion.
                                  Why should the reader goes to Zech 5.2?

                                  Christian

                                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                  Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] P� vegne af George F Somsel
                                  Sendt: 19. december 2007 18:32
                                  Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Emne: Re: SV: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed
                                  Zechariah's order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech
                                  4.11 ff and his vision of the son of man on the cloud where he picked up the
                                  sickle from Zech 5.2. Then using the word "sickle" he brought in Joel 3.13.
                                  He makes a similar word association in the transition from Re 3 with its
                                  promise that Jesus stands at the door when he then transitions to the open
                                  door in heaven.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@maymann. net>
                                  To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:44:50 AM
                                  Subject: SV: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                                  connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                                  only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a �an allusion to Zech
                                  5.2.�? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.

                                  Christian Maymann

                                  Copenhagen

                                  _____

                                  Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  [mailto:revelation- list@ yahoogroups. com] P� vegne af George F Somsel
                                  Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                                  Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Emne: RE: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                                  followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                                  reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                                  rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                                  the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                                  GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                                  sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                                  usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                                  connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                                  simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                                  Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                                  LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel
                                  _________

                                  "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:irbrown% 40andrews. edu"irbrown@ andrews.- edu> wrote:
                                  George,

                                  What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                                  connection is not clear to me.

                                  Ian Brown

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com
                                  [mailto:HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com]
                                  On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                                  To: HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com
                                  Subject: [revelation- -list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                                  appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                                  hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:gfsomsel% 40yahoo.com" gfsomsel@ yahoo.-com>
                                  To: HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com
                                  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                                  Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                                  the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                                  here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                                  14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??�e??? ?�????
                                  ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                                  a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                                  �e???? t? ?a??�??? ?p? t?? ?ef????�
                                  p?�??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                                  ?e??s�?? t?? ???.
                                  16 ?a? ?�a?e? ? ?a??�e??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                                  ??e??s?? ? ??.

                                  14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                                  hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                                  AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                                  FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                                  What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                                  witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                                  3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? �??t?s?? �?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s? -? ?�??a? ????a?
                                  d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??�e�??�???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                                  a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                                  3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                                  DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                                  KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                                  This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                                  quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                                  4.14 that

                                  ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                                  hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                                  Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                                  however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                                  speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than �?�????. The reason for this
                                  divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                                  or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                                  translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                                  "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________ .



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