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Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

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  • Loren L. Johns
    This doesn t look much like Greek to me. Loren Johns ... Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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      This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

      Loren Johns


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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George F Somsel
      Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few? george gfsomsel
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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        Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?

        george
        gfsomsel

        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus
        _________



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

        This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

        Loren Johns

        ------------ --------- --------- ---
        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search..



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Barr
        Showed up fine on my new Mac (ah the zeal of a new convert :-) I suspect anyone with a True Type Greek font installed (as per recent discussions) could read
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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          Showed up fine on my new Mac (ah the zeal of a new convert :-) I
          suspect anyone with a True Type Greek font installed (as per recent
          discussions) could read it.


          David Barr
          Professor of Religion
          Chair, Departments of Religion, Philosophy, & Classics
          Wright State University
          Dayton OH 45435

          937-775-2293
          937-775-2892 (FAX)


          On Dec 18, 2007, at 1:16 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

          > Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I
          > included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?
          >
          > george
          > gfsomsel
          >
          > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          > defend the truth till death.
          >
          > - Jan Hus
          > _________
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
          > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
          > Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle
          >
          > This doesn't look much like Greek to me.
          >
          > Loren Johns
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
          > Search..
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
          > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Edmond Long
          The Greek text you send is nothing but symbols on my end. I have nothing with which I can make sense of the texts (from symbol to a Greek font) you provide.
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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            The Greek text you send is nothing but symbols on my end. I have nothing with which I can make sense of the texts (from symbol to a Greek font) you provide.

            Edmond

            George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
            Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?

            george
            gfsomsel

            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.

            - Jan Hus
            _________

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

            This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

            Loren Johns

            ------------ --------- --------- ---
            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search..

            __________________________________________________________
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            ---------------------------------
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ian R. Brown
            Sorry George, but it ends up as gibberish on my screen. I went to the web listing of the emails, since I thought it may be just the fact that my emails are in
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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              Sorry George, but it ends up as gibberish on my screen. I went to the web
              listing of the emails, since I thought it may be just the fact that my
              emails are in plain text; unfortunately, it was gibberish there too.

              Ian Brown

              -----Original Message-----
              From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:17 PM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

              Is the problem reading the Greek (and 2 words of Hebrew) which I included in
              my post on this subject general or is it limited to a few?

              george
              gfsomsel

              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.

              - Jan Hus
              _________



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Loren L. Johns <llj215@...>
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:06:20 PM
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re:Re 14.14 ff The sickle

              This doesn't look much like Greek to me.

              Loren Johns

              ------------ --------- --------- ---
              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search..




              ____________________________________________________________________________
              ________
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • KennethGentry@cs.com
              In a message dated 12/18/2007 6:55:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... It seems that much of first century Christian apologetics was engaging the huge, defining
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                In a message dated 12/18/2007 6:55:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                goranson@... writes:


                > "...But AD 70 happens to be an important "period" -- as the old covenant is
                > finally closed and the new covenant is established in its place."



                > Do others who comment on Revelation make an equivalent statement?
                >
                > Would John agree?

                It seems that much of first century Christian apologetics was engaging the
                huge, defining question: What is our relationship to Israel, our forbears?

                The Christians saw themselves as taking over the function of Israel and
                continuing the proper service of God because of Israel's failure (eg., Rom 11).
                Paul's Galatian controversy is a case in point, as well as the controversy in
                Acts 15. These show the breach from a narrow Judaism and the opening of God's
                work to the Gentiles as the worship of God moves in a new direction, leaving
                behind the ceremonial food laws (Act 15) and circumcision (Gal 3) which so defined
                Israel.

                Paul calls Christianity the Israel of God (Gal 6), stating that the true Jew
                who is one inwardly (Rom 2) and that those who are baptized in Christ are the
                children of Abraham (Gal 3).

                Matthew writes that the Jews are to be cast out, leaving behind those from
                east and west who actually are in fellowship with Abraham (Mt 8:10-11). And this
                is from a book that has gentiles (magi) worshiping the new born Christ while
                all of Jerusalem feared (Mt 2). And a book which gives parable after parable
                (Mt 21-22), sign after sign (cursed fig tree; cleansed temple), and powerful
                statements (Mt 23-24) regarding the demise of Israel.

                The Synoptics all mention Jesus' desire to gather Israel together under his
                wings, only to record his lament "but you would not." They also mention the new
                wine of Christianity over against the old wineskins of Judaism.

                The widespread scholarly discussion of the parting (or "partings") of the way
                focus on this matter of Christian self-identification.

                John seems to be engaging the discussion in a dramatic way by calling those
                who go to the synagogue "liars" for calling themselves "Jews" (Rev 2:9; 3:9).
                He is holding that the Christian movement supersedes old covenant Israel, which
                has become a "synagogue of Satan" (his words, not mine!). Compare Jn 8:44:
                "You are of your father the devil." (First century rhetorical conventions would
                not work in our modern politically-correct culture.)

                As he does so, he functions like the OT prophets who strongly denounce Israel
                (Isa 1; Isa 66; Jer 2-3; Eze 2-3, 16; Hosea; etc.).

                In his Gospel (if you hold that the same author wrote the Gospel and
                Revelation, which I do) John opens by saying that Jesus came to his own but they would
                not receive him (Jn 1). He records Jesus' words that neither Jew nor
                Samaritan worship in their particular mountains would be the rule in the near future,
                but people everywhere would then worship without regard to holy places (Jn 4).


                Because Christianity was taking up the banner of the OT people of God, the
                destruction of the Temple becomes a major "divine" sign of the end of the old
                covenant. Jesus temple cleansing anticipated it; his Olivet Discourse declared
                it. The abundant heavenly temple/priestly imagery in Revelation seems designed
                to replace the earthly temple with the heavenly, just as the "new Jerusalem"
                must be replacing the old Jerusalem, where the Lord was crucified (Rev 11:8).

                In fact, the exodus motif is strongly embedded in Revelation, and appears to
                be ironic: reversing the OT imagery. The exodus originally brought Israel into
                being but now has the new Israel come out of old Israel, because old Israel
                has become Egypt (Rev 11:8; 18:4). Remember Revelation's dominant character is
                a Lamb (as at Passover). Major judgments involve plagues modeled on the
                Egyptian plagues (trumpets and bowls). Sinai-like theophanies repeatedly occur (cp.
                Exo 19). The 144,000 are marked (as were the doorposts in Egyptian bondage).
                We hear the Song of Moses on the crystal sea (Rev 15). Upon exiting
                Egypt/Jerusalem the Christians become a kingdom of priests (Ezo 19:6; cp. Rev 1:6; 20:6).
                Just as the Synoptics have Christ elevate Sodom, Nineveh and other pagan
                cities above the cities of Israel, John elevates the new Jerusalem (Christianity)
                above the old Jerusalem.

                I am convinced that John is presenting this transition from new covenant to
                old covenant in dramatic fashion -- to a people who are being persecuted by
                Jews (Rev 2:9ff; 2:9ff). The parting of the ways was, in fact, an enormous issue
                in early Christian self-identity.

                Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
                Director, GoodBirth Ministries
                <A HREF="www.goodbirthministries.com"> GoodBirth Ministrie</A>s

                Owner, KennethGentry.Com
                <A HREF="www.KennethGentry.Com"> KennethGentry.Co</A>m
                "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"

                Revelation Commentary Project
                If you would like to give toward funding my research on
                Revelation please go to<A HREF="www.KennethGentry.Com"> KennethGentry.Co</A>m then click
                on "Revelation Commentary Project."
                </HTML>


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George F Somsel
                Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                  Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                  Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle


                  In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                  14 Καὶ εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ νεφέλη λευκή, καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν νεφέλην καθήμενον ὅμοιον υἱὸν ἀνθρώπου, ἔχων ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ στέφανον χρυσοῦν καὶ ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ δρέπανον ὀξύ. 15 καὶ ἄλλος ἄγγελος ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ ναοῦ κράζων ἐν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τῆς νεφέλης·
                  πέμψον τὸ δρέπανόν σου καὶ θέρισον, ὅτι ἦλθεν ἡ ὥρα θερίσαι, ὅτι ἐξηράνθη ὁ θερισμὸς τῆς γῆς.
                  16 καὶ ἔβαλεν ὁ καθήμενος ἐπὶ τῆς νεφέλης τὸ δρέπανον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ ἐθερίσθη ἡ γῆ.

                  14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                  What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                  3 Καὶ δώσω τοῖς δυσὶν μάρτυσίν μου καὶ προφητεύσουσιν ἡμέρας χιλίας διακοσίας ἑξήκοντα περιβεβλημένοι σάκκους. 4 οὗτοί εἰσιν αἱ δύο ἐλαῖαι καὶ αἱ δύο λυχνίαι αἱ ἐνώπιον τοῦ κυρίου τῆς γῆς ἑστῶτες.

                  3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                  This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech 4.14 that


                  Οὗτοι οἱ δύο υἱοὶ τῆς πιότητος παρεστήκασιν τῷ κυρίῳ πάσης τῆς γῆς.

                  hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                  Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is, however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it speaks of a δρέπανον [DREPANON] rather than βιβλίον. The reason for this divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is מְגִלָּה [MeGiL.fH or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the translator of Zechariah in the LXX read מַגָּל [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL "to skin" or "to split"] instead.


                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ian R. Brown
                  George, What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The connection is not clear to me. Ian Brown ... From:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                    George,

                    What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                    connection is not clear to me.

                    Ian Brown

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                    Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                    appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                    hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                    george
                    gfsomsel

                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.

                    - Jan Hus
                    _________



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                    Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle


                    In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                    the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                    here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                    14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                    ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                    a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                    µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                    p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                    ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                    16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                    ??e??s?? ? ??.

                    14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                    hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                    AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                    FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                    What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                    witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                    3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s?? ?µ??a? ????a?
                    d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                    a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                    3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                    DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                    KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                    This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                    quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                    4.14 that


                    ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                    hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                    Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                    however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                    speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                    divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                    or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                    translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                    "to skin" or "to split"] instead.


                    george
                    gfsomsel

                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.

                    - Jan Hus
                    _________



                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                    ____________________________________________________________________________
                    ________
                    Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                    http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • George F Somsel
                    I m suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the reading in
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 18, 2007
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                      I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle" rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                      george
                      gfsomsel
                      _________

                      "Ian R. Brown" <irbrown@...> wrote:
                      George,

                      What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                      connection is not clear to me.

                      Ian Brown

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                      Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                      appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                      hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.

                      - Jan Hus
                      _________

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                      Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                      In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                      the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                      here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                      14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                      ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                      a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                      µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                      p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                      ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                      16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                      ??e??s?? ? ??.

                      14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                      hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                      AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                      FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                      What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                      witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                      3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s?? ?µ??a? ????a?
                      d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                      a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                      3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                      DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                      KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                      This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                      quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                      4.14 that


                      ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                      hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                      Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                      however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                      speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                      divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                      or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                      translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                      "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.

                      - Jan Hus
                      _________

                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                      __________________________________________________________
                      ________
                      Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                      Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                      http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.

                      - Jan Hus
                      _________

                      ---------------------------------
                      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Otto Erlend Nordgreen
                      Dear Kenneth Gentry, If I have understood you correctly, you think that the most natural interpretation of Rev 11 suggests that the temple in v. 1 is the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Kenneth Gentry,

                        If I have understood you correctly, you think that the "most natural interpretation" of Rev 11 suggests that the temple in v. 1 is the literal Jerusalem temple (cf. Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 173). You also see a reference in Rev 11:1-2 to the "Q-Apocalypse", as recorded by Luke 21:24 (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 175f.). Finally, you think that the measuring of the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1 "is for the preservation of its innermost aspect" (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 174).

                        However, in order to secure Rev 11:1-2 from being in conflict with the so-called "Q-Apocalypse" (cf. Matt 24:2), you argue that the measuring of the temple does not indicate the preservation of the literal Jerusalem temple after all; instead you argue that the measuring of the temple indicates the preservation of a spiritual temple (viz. the Church).

                        Thus, you do two things at the same time: First, in order to make a case for an early date of the Apocalypse (viz. in a situation 'before Jerusalem fell'), you argue that the temple in Rev 11:1-2 has to be understood as the literal Jerusalem temple still standing (in a pre-70 CE situation). Second, you argue that the measuring of the temple would indicate the preservation of a spiritual temple -- understood as the "God's new Temple, the Church" (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 174) -- not the literal Jerusalem temple. It seems to me that you have to do this because (a) you insist that in Rev 11, the act of measuring indicates preservation and (b) you do not want John's prophecy to be in conflict with the "Q-Apocalypse" (cf. Matt 24:2).

                        However, IF John wrote Rev 11 'before Jerusalem fell' and the "most natural interpretation" would indicate that the temple in Rev 11:1-2 is the literal Jerusalem temple in a pre-70 CE situation, how can you argue that John's audience would understand the measuring of this (literal Jerusalem?) temple as indicating the preservation of a spiritual temple (= the Church) rather than the literal Jerusalem temple?

                        On the other hand, IF John wrote in a situation after 70 CE, when the temple was destroyed, an identification of the temple in Rev 11 with the literal Jerusalem temple (still standing) would be out of the question; instead an identification of the temple in Rev 11 with the Church (or some other spiritual temple) would be natural. Thus, I seriously question the idea that Rev 11 can be taken as support for an early (pre-70 CE) date of the Apocalypse.


                        Regards

                        Otto E. Nordgreen
                        Oslo, Norway


                        ---------------------------------

                        Alt i ett. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk.

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                      • Edgar Krentz
                        If one used a unicode Greek font, rather than true type, then it would show up correctly In any computer that had a unicode font, such as Gentium or bwgrkl.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          If one used a unicode Greek font, rather than true type, then it would show up correctly In any computer that had a unicode font, such as Gentium or bwgrkl.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com on behalf of George F Somsel
                          Sent: Tue 12/18/2007 4:29 PM
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                          Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________



                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                          Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle


                          In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                          14 ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ?????? ???? ????????, ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???. 15 ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????·
                          ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????, ??? ????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ???????? ? ???????? ??? ???.
                          16 ??? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ? ??.

                          14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                          What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                          3 ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ?????????????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????. 4 ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???????.

                          3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                          This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech 4.14 that


                          ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???.

                          hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                          Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is, however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it speaks of a ???????? [DREPANON] rather than ???????. The reason for this divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL "to skin" or "to split"] instead.


                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________



                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          Yahoo! Groups Links






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • George F Somsel
                          When one uses Arial Unicode MS for Greek and SBL Hebrew for Hebrew, I would rather assume that such would qualify as unicode fonts rather that true type.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            When one uses Arial Unicode MS for Greek and SBL Hebrew for Hebrew, I would rather assume that such would qualify as unicode fonts rather that true type.

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Edgar Krentz <ekrentz@...>
                            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 10:15:54 AM
                            Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                            If one used a unicode Greek font, rather than true type, then it would show up correctly In any computer that had a unicode font, such as Gentium or bwgrkl.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of George F Somsel
                            Sent: Tue 12/18/2007 4:29 PM
                            To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                            Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>
                            To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                            Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                            In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                            14 ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ?????? ???? ????????, ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???. 15 ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????·
                            ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???????, ??? ????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ???????? ? ???????? ??? ???.
                            16 ??? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ? ??.

                            14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                            What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                            3 ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ???????????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ???????????? ?? ???????. 4 ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???????.

                            3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                            This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech 4.14 that


                            ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???.

                            hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                            Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is, however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it speaks of a ???????? [DREPANON] rather than ???????. The reason for this divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________

                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Christian S. Maymann
                            I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the only
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                              connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                              only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a “an allusion to Zech
                              5.2.”? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.



                              Christian Maymann

                              Copenhagen





                              _____

                              Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af George F Somsel
                              Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                              Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Emne: RE: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle



                              I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                              followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                              reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                              rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                              the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                              GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                              sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                              usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                              connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                              simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                              Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                              LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                              george
                              gfsomsel
                              _________

                              "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:irbrown%40andrews.edu"irbrown@andrews.-edu> wrote:
                              George,

                              What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                              connection is not clear to me.

                              Ian Brown

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com
                              [mailto:HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com]
                              On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                              To: HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com
                              Subject: [revelation--list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                              Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                              appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                              hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com"gfsomsel@yahoo.-com>
                              To: HYPERLINK
                              "mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com"revelation-list@-yahoogroups.-com
                              Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                              Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                              In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                              the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                              here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                              14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                              ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                              a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                              µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                              p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                              ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                              16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                              ??e??s?? ? ??.

                              14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                              hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                              AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                              FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                              What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                              witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                              3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s?-? ?µ??a? ????a?
                              d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                              a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                              3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                              DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                              KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                              This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                              quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                              4.14 that

                              ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                              hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                              Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                              however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                              speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                              divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                              or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                              translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                              "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________

                              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                              ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
                              ________
                              Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                              Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                              HYPERLINK
                              "http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping"http
                              ://tools.-search.yahoo.-com/newsearch/-category.-php?category=-shopping

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              george
                              gfsomsel

                              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.

                              - Jan Hus
                              _________

                              ------------------------------------
                              Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                              now.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              No virus found in this incoming message.
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                              14:13



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • George F Somsel
                              That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed Zechariah s order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech 4.11 ff
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed Zechariah's order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech 4.11 ff and his vision of the son of man on the cloud where he picked up the sickle from Zech 5.2. Then using the word "sickle" he brought in Joel 3.13. He makes a similar word association in the transition from Re 3 with its promise that Jesus stands at the door when he then transitions to the open door in heaven.

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@...>
                                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:44:50 AM
                                Subject: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                                connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                                only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a �an allusion to Zech
                                5.2.�? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.

                                Christian Maymann

                                Copenhagen

                                _____

                                Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] P� vegne af George F Somsel
                                Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                                Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                Emne: RE: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                                followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                                reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                                rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                                the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                                GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                                sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                                usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                                connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                                simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                                Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                                LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                                george
                                gfsomsel
                                _________

                                "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:irbrown% 40andrews. edu"irbrown@ andrews.- edu> wrote:
                                George,

                                What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                                connection is not clear to me.

                                Ian Brown

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com
                                [mailto:HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com]
                                On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                                To: HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com
                                Subject: [revelation- -list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                                appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                                hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:gfsomsel% 40yahoo.com" gfsomsel@ yahoo.-com>
                                To: HYPERLINK
                                "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro ups.-com
                                Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                                Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                                the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                                here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                                14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??�e??? ?�????
                                ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                                a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                                �e???? t? ?a??�??? ?p? t?? ?ef????�
                                p?�??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                                ?e??s�?? t?? ???.
                                16 ?a? ?�a?e? ? ?a??�e??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                                ??e??s?? ? ??.

                                14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                                hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                                AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                                FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                                What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                                witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                                3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? �??t?s?? �?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s? -? ?�??a? ????a?
                                d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??�e�??�???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                                a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                                3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                                DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                                KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                                This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                                quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                                4.14 that

                                ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                                hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                                Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                                however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                                speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than �?�????. The reason for this
                                divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                                or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                                translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                                "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________

                                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                                ____________ -________ _-_______ __-______ ___-_____ ____-____ _____-_
                                ________
                                Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                HYPERLINK
                                "http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping"http
                                ://tools.-search. yahoo.-com/ newsearch/ -category. -php?category= -shopping

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                george
                                gfsomsel

                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.

                                - Jan Hus
                                _________

                                ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                                now.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 17-12-2007
                                14:13

                                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                21:40


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed].



                                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Christian S. Maymann
                                I still think, that the images in Rev 14.17ff is better explained by other texts than the sickle in Joel 3.13. I think that the main old testament text used
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I still think, that the images in Rev 14.17ff is better explained by other
                                  texts than the sickle in Joel 3.13. I think that the main old testament text
                                  used here is Joe 4,13 there you in the LXX text both find drepanon, lenos.
                                  I agree that Zec 4 is used and followed in Rev 11, but you suggestion does
                                  not explain why the author leaves Zec 4 after Rev 11,11 and that he suddenly
                                  - by the use of one word drepanon - should signal to the readers that now
                                  he wend back to Zec 4. I find this problem - together with the parallel with
                                  Joel 3.13 - as the main weakness of your suggestion.
                                  Why should the reader goes to Zech 5.2?


                                  Christian


                                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                  Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af George F Somsel
                                  Sendt: 19. december 2007 18:32
                                  Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  Emne: Re: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed
                                  Zechariah's order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech
                                  4.11 ff and his vision of the son of man on the cloud where he picked up the
                                  sickle from Zech 5.2. Then using the word "sickle" he brought in Joel 3.13.
                                  He makes a similar word association in the transition from Re 3 with its
                                  promise that Jesus stands at the door when he then transitions to the open
                                  door in heaven.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________



                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@...>
                                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:44:50 AM
                                  Subject: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                                  connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                                  only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a “an allusion to Zech
                                  5.2.”? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.

                                  Christian Maymann

                                  Copenhagen

                                  _____

                                  Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne af George F Somsel
                                  Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                                  Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Emne: RE: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                                  followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                                  reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                                  rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                                  the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                                  GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                                  sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                                  usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                                  connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                                  simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                                  Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                                  LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel
                                  _________

                                  "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:irbrown% 40andrews. edu"irbrown@ andrews.- edu> wrote:
                                  George,

                                  What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                                  connection is not clear to me.

                                  Ian Brown

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com
                                  [mailto:HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com]
                                  On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                                  To: HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com
                                  Subject: [revelation- -list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                                  appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                                  hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:gfsomsel% 40yahoo.com" gfsomsel@ yahoo.-com>
                                  To: HYPERLINK
                                  "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                  ups.-com
                                  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                                  Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                  In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                                  the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                                  here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                                  14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??µe??? ?µ????
                                  ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                                  a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                                  µe???? t? ?a??µ??? ?p? t?? ?ef????·
                                  p?µ??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                                  ?e??sµ?? t?? ???.
                                  16 ?a? ?ßa?e? ? ?a??µe??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                                  ??e??s?? ? ??.

                                  14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                                  hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                                  AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                                  FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                                  What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                                  witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                                  3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? µ??t?s?? µ?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s? -? ?µ??a? ????a?
                                  d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??ßeß??µ???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                                  a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                                  3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                                  DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                                  KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                                  This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                                  quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                                  4.14 that

                                  ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                                  hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                                  Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                                  however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                                  speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than ß?ß????. The reason for this
                                  divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                                  or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                                  translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                                  "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________

                                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                                  ____________ -________ _-_______ __-______ ___-_____ ____-____ _____-_
                                  ________
                                  Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                  HYPERLINK
                                  "http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                                  shopping"http
                                  ://tools.-search. yahoo.-com/ newsearch/ -category. -php?category= -shopping

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                                  george
                                  gfsomsel

                                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  defend the truth till death.

                                  - Jan Hus
                                  _________

                                  ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                                  now.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 17-12-2007
                                  14:13

                                  No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                  21:40


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed].




                                  ____________________________________________________________________________
                                  ________
                                  Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                  know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                                  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                  21:40


                                  No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 18-12-2007
                                  21:40
                                • George F Somsel
                                  I dislike the idea of redactions with regard to the Apocalypse since I am rather committed to the idea that it is the work of one author, but this would not
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I dislike the idea of redactions with regard to the Apocalypse since I am rather committed to the idea that it is the work of one author, but this would not preclude the redaction of the text by the same author at a different time. I tend to think that this might be what happened in this case. I think it POSSIBLE that the author has inserted material at a later time. I tend to defer to Charles with regard to his assessment of the language. He maintained that there were two hands in the Apocalypse, J(ap), whom he calls "John the Seer" and J(r), whom he calls an "unintelligent disciple." I think Charles' tendency to call this "disciple" unintelligent is that Charles wants the version of J(ap) [I don't precisely remember Charles' designation for these so feel free to substitute his designations] to conform to Charles' vision of what the book was intended to say so he concluded that J(r) had mucked it up though he wrote better Greek than J(ap). I, on
                                    the other hand, think that Charles is correct in saying that some portions of the Apocalypse exhibit a better style of Greek while denying that it was from a different hand or that it has drastically distorted the original plan of the work. The revisions did somewhat change the flow of events in the work, but did not change its plan. If this is true, then Re 14.14 ff may have followed closely upon Re 11.1-2 (or somewhat more). I still need to study this further.

                                    george
                                    gfsomsel

                                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    defend the truth till death.

                                    - Jan Hus
                                    _________



                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@...>
                                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 1:16:25 PM
                                    Subject: SV: SV: [revelation-list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                    I still think, that the images in Rev 14.17ff is better explained by other
                                    texts than the sickle in Joel 3.13. I think that the main old testament text
                                    used here is Joe 4,13 there you in the LXX text both find drepanon, lenos.
                                    I agree that Zec 4 is used and followed in Rev 11, but you suggestion does
                                    not explain why the author leaves Zec 4 after Rev 11,11 and that he suddenly
                                    - by the use of one word drepanon - should signal to the readers that now
                                    he wend back to Zec 4. I find this problem - together with the parallel with
                                    Joel 3.13 - as the main weakness of your suggestion.
                                    Why should the reader goes to Zech 5.2?

                                    Christian

                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                    Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                    [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] P� vegne af George F Somsel
                                    Sendt: 19. december 2007 18:32
                                    Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Emne: Re: SV: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                    That is true only of Re 14.17 ff. It would seem that our author followed
                                    Zechariah's order while inserting his own material between his use of Zech
                                    4.11 ff and his vision of the son of man on the cloud where he picked up the
                                    sickle from Zech 5.2. Then using the word "sickle" he brought in Joel 3.13.
                                    He makes a similar word association in the transition from Re 3 with its
                                    promise that Jesus stands at the door when he then transitions to the open
                                    door in heaven.

                                    george
                                    gfsomsel

                                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    defend the truth till death.

                                    - Jan Hus
                                    _________

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Christian S. Maymann <christian@maymann. net>
                                    To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:44:50 AM
                                    Subject: SV: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                    I am not sure about the connection between Rev 14 and Zac 5. If there was a
                                    connection between Zac 5,2 on account of the word drepanon, it would be the
                                    only word that connect the two texts. Why is 14,4ff a �an allusion to Zech
                                    5.2.�? The connection to Joel 4 is more obvious.

                                    Christian Maymann

                                    Copenhagen

                                    _____

                                    Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                    [mailto:revelation- list@ yahoogroups. com] P� vegne af George F Somsel
                                    Sendt: 19. december 2007 02:07
                                    Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Emne: RE: [revelation- list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                    I'm suggesting that 11.4 is nearly a quotation of Zech 4.14 which is then
                                    followed by Zech 5.1-4 where in verse 2 we find a difference between the
                                    reading in 5.2 between the Hebrew and the LXX in that the LXX has "sickle"
                                    rather than "scroll." The reading "sickle" is explained by the dropping of
                                    the final Heh and the derivation of the result from NGL rather than from
                                    GLL. In Re 14.14 ff we find the "son of man" on the clouds wielding a
                                    sickle. This is explicable as an allusion to Zech 5.2. We thus have another
                                    usage of Zechariah in the Apocalypse. This does not deny that there is a
                                    connection between Dan 7.13 ff, but I think there is more to the story than
                                    simply the connection with Daniel. Yet there is more. Compare Joel 3.13 with
                                    Re 14.14-16. The word "sickle" which appears in Joel 3.13 as well as in the
                                    LXX of Zech 5.2 serves to complete the picture.

                                    george
                                    gfsomsel
                                    _________

                                    "Ian R. Brown" <HYPERLINK
                                    "mailto:irbrown% 40andrews. edu"irbrown@ andrews.- edu> wrote:
                                    George,

                                    What connection are you suggesting between Rev 14:14 ff and Rev 11:3-4? The
                                    connection is not clear to me.

                                    Ian Brown

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: HYPERLINK
                                    "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                    ups.-com
                                    [mailto:HYPERLINK
                                    "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                    ups.-com]
                                    On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:29 PM
                                    To: HYPERLINK
                                    "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                    ups.-com
                                    Subject: [revelation- -list] Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                    Since several had difficulty reading this due to the Greek (and Hebrew) not
                                    appearing properly, I am resending it with some adjustments which will
                                    hopefully make it easier (or possible) to read.

                                    george
                                    gfsomsel

                                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    defend the truth till death.

                                    - Jan Hus
                                    _________

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: George F Somsel <HYPERLINK
                                    "mailto:gfsomsel% 40yahoo.com" gfsomsel@ yahoo.-com>
                                    To: HYPERLINK
                                    "mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com"revelatio n-list@-yahoogro
                                    ups.-com
                                    Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:30:52 PM
                                    Subject: Re 14.14 ff The sickle

                                    In Re 14.14 ff we have the account of the reaping of the earth followed by
                                    the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God (I'm leaving the Greek
                                    here, but I urge you to look up Re 14.14-16 in NA27).

                                    14 ?a? e?d??, ?a? ?d?? ?ef??? ?e???, ?a? ?p? t?? ?ef???? ?a??�e??? ?�????
                                    ???? ?????p??, ???? ?p? t?? ?efa??? a?t?? st?fa??? ???s??? ?a? ?? t? ?e???
                                    a?t?? d??pa??? ???. 15 ?a? ????? ???e??? ?????e? ?? t?? ?a?? ?????? ?? f???
                                    �e???? t? ?a??�??? ?p? t?? ?ef????�
                                    p?�??? t? d??pa??? s?? ?a? ????s??, ?t? ???e? ? ??a ?e??sa?, ?t? ???????? ?
                                    ?e??s�?? t?? ???.
                                    16 ?a? ?�a?e? ? ?a??�e??? ?p? t?? ?ef???? t? d??pa??? a?t?? ?p? t?? ??? ?a?
                                    ??e??s?? ? ??.

                                    14 KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU NEFELH LEUKH, KAI EPI THN NEFELHN KAQHMENON hOMOION
                                    hUION ANQRWPOU, EXWN EPI THS KEFALHS AUTOU STEFANON XRUSOUN KAI EN THi XEIRI
                                    AUTOU DREPANON OCU. 15 KAI ALLOS AGGELOS ECHLQEN EK TOU NAOU KRAZWN EN
                                    FWNHi MEGALHi TWi KAQHMENWi EPI THS NEFELHS
                                    What is rather amazing here is that in Re 11.3-4 we are told of the two
                                    witnesses that (again, look at Re 11.3-4 in NA 27)

                                    3 ?a? d?s? t??? d?s?? �??t?s?? �?? ?a? p??f?te?s??s? -? ?�??a? ????a?
                                    d?a??s?a? ??????ta pe??�e�??�???? s??????. 4 ??t?? e?s?? a? d?? ??a?a? ?a?
                                    a? d?? ?????a? a? ???p??? t?? ?????? t?? ??? ?st?te?.

                                    3 KAI DWSW TOIS DUSIN MARTUSIN MOU KAI PROFHTEUSOUSIN hHMERAS XILIAS
                                    DIAKOSIAS hECHKONTA PERIBEBLHMENOI SAKKOUS. 4 hOUTOI EISIN hAI DUO ELAIAI
                                    KAI hAI DUO LUXNIAI hAI ENWPION TOU KURIOU THS GHS hESTWTES
                                    This is about as close as the Apocalypse ever comes to making a direct
                                    quotation from the OT -- in this case the LXX where we are informed in Zech
                                    4.14 that

                                    ??t?? ?? d?? ???? t?? p??t?t?? pa?est??as?? t? ????? p?s?? t?? ???.

                                    hOUTOI hOI DUO hUIOI THS PIOTHTOS PARESTHKASIN TWi KURIWi PASHS THS GHS

                                    Immediately following this is the vision of the flying scroll. There is,
                                    however, a difference between the MT of Zech and the LXX. In the LXX it
                                    speaks of a d??pa??? [DREPANON] rather than �?�????. The reason for this
                                    divergence is not far to seek. In the Hebrew the word is ???????? [MeGiL.fH
                                    or megillah from GLL "to roll"] and it seems fairly obvious that the
                                    translator of Zechariah in the LXX read ?????? [MaG.fL or maggal from *NGL
                                    "to skin" or "to split"] instead.

                                    george
                                    gfsomsel

                                    Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    defend the truth till death.

                                    - Jan Hus
                                    _________ .



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