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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

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  • George F Somsel
    I personally don t thing the Beast refers to either Nero or to any other Roman emperor. I am convinced that the number 666 references the elevation of man
    Message 1 of 47 , Dec 7, 2007
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      I personally don't thing the Beast refers to either Nero or to any other Roman emperor. I am convinced that the number "666" references the elevation of man to the status of divinity and may represent an opposition to gnosticism. I'm wondering what others think of the two passages Re 2.28

      28 ὡς κἀγὼ εἴληφα παρὰ τοῦ πατρός μου, καὶ δώσω αὐτῷ τὸν ἀστέρα τὸν πρωϊνόν.

      and Re 22.16b

      ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυίδ, ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ λαμπρὸς ὁ πρωϊνός.
      in light of

      In CD 7:18–19 (cf. 4QDa 3 iv 8), alluding to Num 24:17, the star is said to be the interpreter of the Law (והכוכב הוא דורשׁ התורה wĕhakkôkāb hû˒ dôrēš hattôrâ).

      *************** Text of CD 7:18-19

      אשר בזה ישראל את דבריהם. 〚 〛 והכוכב הוא דורש התורה
      הבא דמשק כאשר כתוב דרך כוכב מיעקב וקם שבט
      Abegg, M. G. J. (2003). Qumran sectarian manuscripts (CD 7:18-19).


      Num 24:17 (“a star shall come forth from Jacob”) was interpreted messianically in Judaism (Mal 4:2[LXX: 3:20]; Zech 6:12; 1QM 11:6–7; 4QTest 9–13; CD 7:18–20; T. Levi 18:3; T. Jud 24:1; cf. y. Ta˓an. 68d, where the would-be Messiah Shimon bar Kosiba’s nickname “Bar Kochba,” meaning “son of a star,” is also an allusion to Num 24:17; cf. Eusebius Hist. eccl. 4.6.2; see Vermes, “The Story of Balaam,” in Scripture and Tradition in Judaism: Haggadic Studies, 2nd ed. [Leiden: Brill, 1973] 165–66). Coins minted during the Bar Kochba revolt depict a star over the temple (cf. Schürer, History 1:544 n. 133). The messianic interpretation of Num 24:17 was taken over into early Christianity (Matt 2:2–20 [see Str-B, 1:76–77]; Justin 1 Apol. 32.12; Dial. 106.4; Hippolytus Comm. in Dan. 1.9; Origen Contra Cels. 1.59–60). The term λαμπρός, “bright,” reflects the belief that, apart from the sun and the moon, Venus/Aphrodite is
      the brightest of all the planets (Pliny Hist. nat. 2.37; Martianus Capella 8.883). In Greek the morning star is called φωσφόρος, and in Latin lucifer (Cicero De natura deorum 2.20.53).

      Aune, D. E. (2002). Vol. 52C: Word Biblical Commentary : Revelation 17-22. Word Biblical Commentary (1226). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

      Unless one strictly wishes to maintain that John the Apostle wrote the Apocalypse, how does one account for the author's assumption of authority over the churches of the Province of Asia? This implies a development in church structure over that which seems to exist in other sections of the NT where only the Apostles could claim such authority. We seem to see it approaching this in Ignatius who, however, qualifies his instructions to the Ephesians by

      3.1 Οὐ διατάσσομαι ὑμῖν ὡς ὤν τις.

      It seems to me that Re 1.2a

      ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ

      is an echo of Jn 1.1

      Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

      and thus, contrary to the assertions of some commentators, does imply that the author was indeed claiming to be the apostle. Charles, in the introduction to his 2 volume ICC commentary set forth fairly compelling reasons to doubt that the apostle was alive at the time of Domitian which is widely accepted as the date for the Apocalypse's composition. Indeed, according to Charles' findings, the Apostle John would likely not have been alive during the reign of Nero either.

      The use of μάρτυς seems to have developed over its usage in other sections of the NT which would require some time to develop. In the Apocalypse it appears to very nearly bear the sense of "martyr."

      What all of this leads to is the question regarding whether we are to consider the book to be something of a period piece mainly applicable to the time in which it was written or whether the author had some broader intention.


      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Otto Erlend Nordgreen <ottoerlend@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, December 7, 2007 9:35:51 AM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

      Like Ian Paul, I think the evidence at hand points towards a Domitianic date for the Book of Revelation. This would be in harmony with the testimony of Ireneaeus. I am, however, open for a date during the time of Vespasian; both Rev 11 and 17 may be seen as reflecting a post-70 CE situation (cf. arguments presented by scholars like Giet, Feuillet, Bachmann, Giblin).

      A case could be made for an earlier date (say, pre-70 CE); but as it seems impossible to say for sure when the Apocalypse was written, our interpretation of the text should not be (too) depending on a certain date of composition.

      I was wondering if there are others who (seriously) think a Vespasianic date makes sense.

      Best regards

      Otto E. Nordgreen
      Oslo, Norway

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    • Laszlo Hubbes
      Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown, I would full-heartedly suggest among many others Christopher Rowland s and Judith Kovacs s volume on Revelation in the Blackwell Bible
      Message 47 of 47 , Dec 10, 2007
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        Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown,

        I would full-heartedly suggest among many others

        Christopher Rowland's and Judith Kovacs's volume on Revelation in the
        Blackwell Bible Commentaries series. (Blackwell Publishing, 2004) - A
        brilliant multi-aspect and multi-level commentary on the Apocalypse, with an
        added emphasis on its reception history.

        Best regards,

        Hubbes Laszlo


        HUBBES L�szl�-Attila, PhD

        Str. Gabor Aron ut 14,
        520008, Sfantu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyorgy),
        judetul Covasna.
        Tel.: + 40 (267) 315577
        Tel./Fax: + 40 (267) 351609
        e-mail: biblio@....

        visiting lecturer
        530104 Miercurea Ciuc (Csikszereda)
        Piata Libertatii (Szabadsag ter) 1
        Tel.: +40 266-314 657,
        Fax: +40 266�372 099
        E-mail: ghkar@...,
        Web: www.csik.sapientia.ro

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